Is it even worth it for a guy like me to try with making moves in-person?

[Chow Mein]

Well my husband used alcohol and drugs to deal with his social anxiety and help him mask. Early on when he attended social functions with me he drank to adjust....then he at times would drink too much. That is much better now. He also liked being the center of attention when he was performing and then would be naturally aloof and difficult to approach away from the stage. I didn't know him then & would have blown him off had I met him during that phase. I didn't date substance users.

I actually really love the "real" him. He's a very funny, silly, kinda goofy dude that I adore. He's thoughtful often. He loves me deeply. He is incredibly smart & musically gifted (sax & vocals) but he got disappointed/disillusioned navigating the music business. He was alternatively too much of a d ick and too naieve about the business at the same time.

He masks constantly to cope with life and always has from a very young age. He knows he's different but hates the reality of the condition and its label. He is learning that the marriage is a safe environment where he doesn't have to constantly hide behind his sunglasses (to avoid eye contact) or be Joe Cool ass hole. That its Ok to express deep emotion (ASD people feel deeply & intensely - but they may not always know what to do or how to deal with that emotion.....) he's been in tears before in the dark in a heated conversation, but that's weak and unmanly in his programming so he tries hard to hide that degree of emotive expression from me. To not show how much he cares. Baby steps.

We are both objectively attractive people no doubt. I could attract a nuerotypical man certainly at an 8 or 9, which is where many men rate me, even at my age. I have in the past attracted desirable men, no problem. I require a certain edge and I am naturally aloof myself. I am also very smart & find many men b o r i n g.

I am cerebral and find many men banal and without finesse. My husband appeals to me where it counts and yes he's complicated. I like complicated and I'm aware of my own pathos.

You, OP must stop having analysis paralysis and simply ask out the women that interest you. My husband did not bother with chit chat over text. His first text he asked me out to brunch on a Sunday. Straight up. I liked that. It came across as decisive. I knew he liked me and I liked that because I was curious about him.

Get out of your logical interior of your mind and ask women out. The action will help you reset your foregone conclusions. That is one thing my husband did because he had learned to do it. Shoot your shot & see what happens.

So I’m guessing your husband is a tall, hot dude with a lot of baggage?

 

[BaronOfHair]

Excuse me if I'm a bit cynical on here. When you go through a 9 yard effort, see that $ 20K was spent on a wedding, and see someone turn viciously on you then it sort of gives the idea that nobody is really safe to deal with.



At least you dated someone for 8 months that you felt confident enough to say that you loved her, which means you must have achieved some sort of state of mental health and connection dealing her to be confident enough to say that in the first place and be willing to take that risk.

Everyone can say that they don't mean it once a relationship is over. That's convenient to say as you are all exes.



Okay, that is your niche then. I guess this must be the most productive exchange since it might go somewhere and help you.

You need to focus on your niche and focus on women who don't know how to speak English then, or speak English as a second language.
If this is the case, then you have one up ahead of me since I don't even have a niche per see that I'm aware of.



That wasn't so bad. With my break-ups the girl is gone. My ex-wife did follow up concerning aspects of the divorce process. However, beyond that there was no other meaningful contact. Guess you are doing better in that department. How did speaking sporadically help you? Did it make a softer landing for the break-up rather than it being an ugly and nasty thing?



Ironically one of the most stable of relationships. If I committed with her properly, she would have been with me through thick and think. However she's on meds and is a Schiophrenia and has paranoid delusional thoughts that I'm cheating on her or something like that. I did end things nasty with her because she would not move on (ie change number, refuse to respond to texts or letters from her, etc....).

Just FYI, a guy who weds a woman without knowing her and divorces her within a year was just following his trouser snake and is definitely not a good judge of character.
No use asking any type of (LTR) advice from someone with so little knowledge, especially if they can only refer to their own lousy experiences and project their failures on all womankind.

This thread serves as an unintentional masterclass in the ways most supposed "men" repeatedly sh-t the bed more atrociously than a Metamucil-adled Amber Heard, and never quite find their way to the crapper:

1.Grouse exhaustively over those aspects of their lives they claim to be unsatisfied with

2. Treat the counsel of those who encourage them to adopt more functional mindsets and behaviors dismissively

3. Bump into someone/perhaps several folks who do the exact same thing

4. Choose what appears to be the easy way out, by keeping company with and endlessly commiserating with these folks, on the grounds that it always temporarily FEELS good to do so, even though it doesn't benefit you psychologically or materially over the long-term




I don't write this to be critical, but rather to mourn the tragedy of such antics. Hell, I(and no doubt at least a few other fellas here)have ourselves been similarly unreachable at some point in our lives

 

[Pierce Manhammer]

But I don't think sex is the only form of expression of intimacy within a relationship, especially if it is a Christian (ie as in devout Christians) relationship. You have french kissing, making out, petting, dry humping. Honestly, some of the most intimate experiences were aggressively making out with an ex-gf, in contrast to say having sex with ex-wife. Even hugging a woman with me is intimate (ie holding a woman close and hugging for a lenght of time until you feel warmth filling in your guts), or a lady touching my elbow and then hand after a nice hug, etc... none of these things are related to sex. Sex, just sticking it into an orifice (vag/mouth/whatever), can become glorified masturbation.

That being said, even if we assume an argument of friendship, how do you have an 8 month friendship? Do you hear people saying they have a xyz year friendship? Friends are normally friends for a very long time and stay in contact. What about the escorts he is having sex with who are also his friend? That's definitely not a relationship.

Talk of prostitution is prohibited.

However, if that’s how you view sex, you are doing it disastrously wrong.

 

[GoodMan32]

yup, even a woman who i spoke to, she told me she has been a member of autism forums, sites for years, and she said, the number of lonely men being single and wanting a girlfriend always outweighed by a huge margin, the number of lonely women being single and wanting a boyfriend, should be obvious.

However, it possible that the users on those sites are male-dominated.

The spectrum in general is male-dominated (at a ratio of 3 to 1). So it follows that a spectrum forum will be male-dominated.

A woman already has it easier to begin with when getting laid, even if on the spectrum. The fact a woman is way less likely to be on the spectrum in the first place is yet another way they have it easier.

 

[GoodMan32]

Excuse me if I'm a bit cynical on here. When you go through a 9 yard effort, see that $ 20K was spent on a wedding, and see someone turn viciously on you then it sort of gives the idea that nobody is really safe to deal with.



At least you dated someone for 8 months that you felt confident enough to say that you loved her, which means you must have achieved some sort of state of mental health and connection dealing her to be confident enough to say that in the first place and be willing to take that risk.

Everyone can say that they don't mean it once a relationship is over. That's convenient to say as you are all exes.



Okay, that is your niche then. I guess this must be the most productive exchange since it might go somewhere and help you.

You need to focus on your niche and focus on women who don't know how to speak English then, or speak English as a second language.
If this is the case, then you have one up ahead of me since I don't even have a niche per see that I'm aware of.



That wasn't so bad. With my break-ups the girl is gone. My ex-wife did follow up concerning aspects of the divorce process. However, beyond that there was no other meaningful contact. Guess you are doing better in that department. How did speaking sporadically help you? Did it make a softer landing for the break-up rather than it being an ugly and nasty thing?



Ironically one of the most stable of relationships. If I committed with her properly, she would have been with me through thick and think. However she's on meds and is a Schiophrenia and has paranoid delusional thoughts that I'm cheating on her or something like that. I did end things nasty with her because she would not move on (ie change number, refuse to respond to texts or letters from her, etc....).

Other than making the post-breakup period gentler, I don't think there was a whole lot of help that came from continuing to speak to her sporadically (the breakup was my idea by the way).

That being said, I recall during some of our last exchanges (9 years ago), we pretty much came to the conclusion that if I still lived in the area, we'd get back together.

 

[GoodMan32]

he feels reluctant to call that woman he dated for 8 months because it was a sexless relationship, yeah to me and lots of people, a relationship without sex is just a friendship.

A friendship with kissing, cuddling, groping, and oral.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I had a high school teacher who struggled a lot financially as a kid/young adult. During young adulthood, he did a lot of stuff the average person wouldn't want to do...but in the end, he managed to get himself into a decent place financially (teachers, at least in the state I went to high school in, are comfortably middle class).

I remember him saying once (about the sacrifices he made during young adulthood) "If I could do it, why couldn't everyone?"

There's somewhere I'm going with this story. For the past 9 years or so, I've barely made a move on any woman. If I can do it, couldn't every man?

It wouldn't take anywhere near 9 years to notice a difference if every man did this by the way. Within 9 months, we'd start to notice a drastic difference (in terms of broads becoming more bold with coming onto us)

This is the nonsense talk that people use to derail themselves..."anyone can do it but nobody does" is closer to the truth. Why? Because to be good at anything requires a LOT of work, effort and determination that is undeterred by setbacks, failures or things not going their way.

Especially if it is something they are struggling with to begin with. You don't need to work 2x as hard, you need to work 2x to the tenth power as hard to improve.

And most people just aren't willing to do it because it forces them to go outside their comfort zone and status quo.

Once you understand your brain isn't trying to get you to thrive, it's merely trying to ensure you survive you will view things a whole different way. Your brain is literally wired to keep you trapped wherever you currently are in whatever situation you are because that is it's comfort zone and for survival reasons it is always better for it to have a known than an unknown.

That's why you will find yourself talking negatively to yourself, telling yourself you can't do it, having doubts about doing it, lacking motivation, etc. Your brain will try any trick in the book to make you quit and keep you stuck in the status quo that it is comfortable in.

Once you realize this, you have a choice. Either stop listening and move forward KNOWING it will attempt to stop you at every turn and be ready to combat it, or quit.

90% of the people choose quit. So that's why it makes no sense to think of someone could just spend 9 years doing it, everyone would be great at it. Because most people won't even spend 9 weeks let alone 9 years doing it.

And even then another 90% of people will only be willing to put the amount of effort, work and energy towards it that they believe should make them successful because they only want success on THEIR terms.

But that's not how it works in life. Success has its own terms and it doesn't give a crap about the ones you think it should have. Either you are willing to meet those terms or you aren't and most aren't.

Change the way you think and you can change your life. Your mindset is your biggest issue. In women and in life. Your mindset extends to everything in life not just women.

Not sure how many times you need to hear it before you actually choose to do something about it IF you want to. Because I can promise you, nothing is going to change for the positive for you with your current mindset.

You'll be stuck exactly where you are 1 year from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 50 years from now.

In life you can either make excuses or get results, never both. Choose which you want and if it's results then the excuses need to stop TODAY. If you'd rather have your life be one giant excuse then just give up on getting results because that won't happen.

 

[GoodMan32]

This is the nonsense talk that people use to derail themselves..."anyone can do it but nobody does" is closer to the truth. Why? Because to be good at anything requires a LOT of work, effort and determination that is undeterred by setbacks, failures or things not going their way.

Especially if it is something they are struggling with to begin with. You don't need to work 2x as hard, you need to work 2x to the tenth power as hard to improve.

And most people just aren't willing to do it because it forces them to go outside their comfort zone and status quo.

Once you understand your brain isn't trying to get you to thrive, it's merely trying to ensure you survive you will view things a whole different way. Your brain is literally wired to keep you trapped wherever you currently are in whatever situation you are because that is it's comfort zone and for survival reasons it is always better for it to have a known than an unknown.

That's why you will find yourself talking negatively to yourself, telling yourself you can't do it, having doubts about doing it, lacking motivation, etc. Your brain will try any trick in the book to make you quit and keep you stuck in the status quo that it is comfortable in.

Once you realize this, you have a choice. Either stop listening and move forward KNOWING it will attempt to stop you at every turn and be ready to combat it, or quit.

90% of the people choose quit. So that's why it makes no sense to think of someone could just spend 9 years doing it, everyone would be great at it. Because most people won't even spend 9 weeks let alone 9 years doing it.

And even then another 90% of people will only be willing to put the amount of effort, work and energy towards it that they believe should make them successful because they only want success on THEIR terms.

But that's not how it works in life. Success has its own terms and it doesn't give a crap about the ones you think it should have. Either you are willing to meet those terms or you aren't and most aren't.

Change the way you think and you can change your life. Your mindset is your biggest issue. In women and in life. Your mindset extends to everything in life not just women.

Not sure how many times you need to hear it before you actually choose to do something about it IF you want to. Because I can promise you, nothing is going to change for the positive for you with your current mindset.

You'll be stuck exactly where you are 1 year from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 50 years from now.

In life you can either make excuses or get results, never both. Choose which you want and if it's results then the excuses need to stop TODAY. If you'd rather have your life be one giant excuse then just give up on getting results because that won't happen.

My point is: Why should men in general bother with trying to become good at picking up a woman, when we could get the ladies to start throwing themselves at us if only we made one small sacrifice (a temporary protest against making moves on women)? Again, if every straight available man did this, the ladies would start throwing themselves at us within 9 months.

That's pretty empowering to think the male population could reverse such an ingrained part of western culture in less than a year with one tiny step. As an analogy, imagine if NFL players were offered to make their 7 figure salaries to simply sit in the stands watching football. Why would they want to put in the effort to play the game when they could get the same salary to sit in the stands?

As for being stuck, even though I've had some successes, I'm still (for the most part) stuck exactly where I was at 15 (despite being 33). In fact, sometimes I have flashbacks to my 15 year old self (and realize just how little I've changed)

 

[corrector]

A friendship with kissing, cuddling, groping, and oral.

What was the quality of the kissing (ie was it just a peck in the lips or an intense make out session where you are sticking your tonuge almost down to her throat), what was the quality of the oral (ie light oral play or throating/swallow type of stuff)?

 

[H8CourtshipWithAPassion]

The spectrum in general is male-dominated (at a ratio of 3 to 1). So it follows that a spectrum forum will be male-dominated.

A woman already has it easier to begin with when getting laid, even if on the spectrum. The fact a woman is way less likely to be on the spectrum in the first place is yet another way they have it easier.

yeah i think even genetic and DNA research has confirmed that more women than men throughout history have passed on their genes, DNA.

 

[GoodMan32]

What was the quality of the kissing (ie was it just a peck in the lips or an intense make out session where you are sticking your tonuge almost down to her throat), what was the quality of the oral (ie light oral play or throating/swallow type of stuff)?

Kissing was sometimes a peck; sometimes tongue.

As for oral, let's just say she lived up to the "fat girls give good head" stereotype.

 

[GoodMan32]

yeah i think even genetic and DNA research has confirmed that more women than men throughout history have passed on their genes, DNA.

No surprise. I read somewhere that back in caveman days, only 1 out of 17 men were able to reproduce (simply because the cavewomen weren't into the vast majority of men).

Then society structured itself so that a woman needed a man financially, thus enabling the average Joe to get a woman. Eastern cultures still do this to some degree (arranged marriage).

Western culture, on the other hand, is gradually reverting back to caveman times (where a woman can be more choosy).

As a man on another forum told me "The average man will never be sexually exciting to a woman."

 

[BaronOfHair]

A woman already has it easier to begin with when getting laid, even if on the spectrum. The fact a woman is way less likely to be on the spectrum in the first place is yet another way they have it easier.

Easier BY COMPARISON. Either way we slice it though, both sexes have to learn how to spark, and then maintain attraction. Ruminating on how much easier someone else's life must be is another recipe for stagnation

 

[corrector]

Kissing was sometimes a peck; sometimes tongue.

As for oral, let's just say she lived up to the "fat girls give good head" stereotype.

She is fat? Now I see why you both stayed in contact.

 

[GoodMan32]

She is fat? Now I see why you both stayed in contact.

Yeah. She's fat.

Interestingly, she ended up dating yet another skinny white man after we broke up (she's Latina)

 

[BackInTheGame78]

My point is: Why should men in general bother with trying to become good at picking up a woman, when we could get the ladies to start throwing themselves at us if only we made one small sacrifice (a temporary protest against making moves on women)? Again, if every straight available man did this, the ladies would start throwing themselves at us within 9 months.

That's pretty empowering to think the male population could reverse such an ingrained part of western culture in less than a year with one tiny step. As an analogy, imagine if NFL players were offered to make their 7 figure salaries to simply sit in the stands watching football. Why would they want to put in the effort to play the game when they could get the same salary to sit in the stands?

As for being stuck, even though I've had some successes, I'm still (for the most part) stuck exactly where I was at 15 (despite being 33). In fact, sometimes I have flashbacks to my 15 year old self (and realize just how little I've changed)

You might as well ask yourself why should a man act like a man and not just act like a woman.

That's essentially what you are wanting to do, act like a woman.

Because your role as a man is to make things happen and lead. Not sit around wondering what is happening and following whoever is the first person that shows any interest like a puppy dog.

You really are lost man. I don't know where you come up with these nonsensical ideas but they need to stop.

I mean what's next, are you going to wonder why people live on land and don't live underneath the water too? Essentially you are taking something that is the essence of being a man and asking why you have to have it.

You don't. Go be a woman if you choose.

Haven't changed since you were 15...there is a shocker. I could have told you that just by the way you think and your mindset. Guess what? When you are 80 you can say the same thing unless you choose to do something about it.

And assuredly that isn't trying to figure out how to not be a man.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

No surprise. I read somewhere that back in caveman days, only 1 out of 17 men were able to reproduce (simply because the cavewomen weren't into the vast majority of men).

Then society structured itself so that a woman needed a man financially, thus enabling the average Joe to get a woman. Eastern cultures still do this to some degree (arranged marriage).

Western culture, on the other hand, is gradually reverting back to caveman times (where a woman can be more choosy).

As a man on another forum told me "The average man will never be sexually exciting to a woman."

That's because the average man chooses to be average. Women view that as pathetic.

 

[BaronOfHair]

You really are lost man. I don't know where you come up with these nonsensical ideas but they need to stop

Earlier in this thread, I pointed out to OP that him showing up on a forum dedicated to self-development, asking for aid, then "Yes, but..."ing every last ounce of counsel he receives is, quite frankly, disrespectful to those of us he shares cyberspace with. The message hasn't taken

 

[BaronOfHair]

No surprise. I read somewhere that back in caveman days, only 1 out of 17 men were able to reproduce (simply because the cavewomen weren't into the vast majority of men).

Then society structured itself so that a woman needed a man financially, thus enabling the average Joe to get a woman. Eastern cultures still do this to some degree (arranged marriage).

Western culture, on the other hand, is gradually reverting back to caveman times (where a woman can be more choosy).

As a man on another forum told me "The average man will never be sexually exciting to a woman."

As we discussed here https://www.sosuave.net/forum/threa...u-get-a-longer-term-girlfriend.275835/page-11

Settling for a life of banality was a viable(If unhappy) option for our forefathers, who lived in eras where upward mobility was far more uncommon. 'Dem days are gone now. The modern man has to either ascend the food chain, or be devoured by the carnivores among us

 

[GoodMan32]

You might as well ask yourself why should a man act like a man and not just act like a woman.

That's essentially what you are wanting to do, act like a woman.

Because your role as a man is to make things happen and lead. Not sit around wondering what is happening and following whoever is the first person that shows any interest like a puppy dog.

You really are lost man. I don't know where you come up with these nonsensical ideas but they need to stop.

I mean what's next, are you going to wonder why people live on land and don't live underneath the water too? Essentially you are taking something that is the essence of being a man and asking why you have to have it.

You don't. Go be a woman if you choose.

Haven't changed since you were 15...there is a shocker. I could have told you that just by the way you think and your mindset. Guess what? When you are 80 you can say the same thing unless you choose to do something about it.

And assuredly that isn't trying to figure out how to not be a man.

From a logical standpoint, it makes more sense for a woman to pursue a man (than vice versa).

Any given woman is far more likely to get a "yeah" when asking out any given man than any given man is to get a "yeah" when asking out any given woman.

Put another way: A basketball coach who wins a majority of games is better than a basketball coach who loses the vast majority of games.

Having the man make the move on the woman (rather than vice versa) is like saying the coach who loses way more often is somehow better than the winning coach.

I've mentioned on this forum that there's a male coworker who's talked to me a bit about the ladies. An analogy I gave him: "If a basketball coach loses more than 90% of games, the coach won't have a job next season. In fact, couldn't you say the coach picked the wrong line of work?"

(I get turned down more than 90% of the time; that's where I got the numbers for the analogy I gave the coworker)

The coworker said "Yeah, I suppose a coach who loses more than 90% of games picked the wrong line of work."