The Great Irony of the SMV theory

[SL2012]

I will have do DISAGREE with Backbreaker.

I had stuff happen to me in my early to mid 30's, that DID not happen in my 20's.

First off, I am no strikingly handsome GQ Model. I am on the tall side, have all my hair and pretty good physique, but facial aesthetics lean more towards the average. People say I resemble Matt Lauer; about a 7.5 in looks.

Some examples of what has happened last few years.

I also, AM NOT RICH, I drive a Hyundai and make 55K a year;

1.) Hooked up with a pretty good looking 22 year old (HB 7.5) when I was 33.
2.) Got a handjob from a decent looking 25 year old when I was 35.
3.) Had an 18 year old High School senior co-worker think I was good looking and she made comments (not to my face) about wanting to make out with me.
4.) Was stopped by a group of high school girls on train last year who said "Hi" and that they really liked my coat. When I asked them how old they were, they replied "Old enough".

These are just some examples, I get MORE female attention from women in their early to mid 20's NOW, then when I was early to mid 20's myself.

I believe MOST women are attracted to men who look 10 years older.

 

[Stagger Lee]

I agree with you. I was just providing some real world examples to counter what I see as defeatist thinking.

Even if it's true that a 6 guy is unlikely to land an HB9, with enough approaches, even a 6 could score a 9. Once in how many approaches? Once in 20 approaches? Once in 40 approaches?

If a guy really wanted to, he could do 10 approaches a night easy. You go out 4 times, you score once. You go out once or twice a week and it takes you 2-4 weeks to score a 9.

But I guess it's easier to complain about how "game doesn't work."

The problem with what you say is you just throw thing out there like everything is easy. For example a male 6. If women don't think you are above average then being a 6 is not a given like you suggest. You can't just magically make yourself a 6 and more attractive than 60% of the guys out there who are also trying to attract women. Probably a few years ago women thought I was about a 6 or so and it was easier. Your hair can thin, and you can just start to look older at some point, etc. good bye 6.

You say it is easy to do 10 approaches and 20-40 approaches you will get a hot girl. Well that's not been my experience. It's not easy to do 10 approaches without being in the bar a long while unless you don't mind approaching girls who are talking to other guys. You also risk looking like the approach loser in the bar. And 20-40 approaches is not a guarantee. I've done as many 50-100 to just get an average girl. You might think that's a lot but I knew a lot of guys that were doing as much or more to get a pick up and they weren't really even hot girls.

Hot girls seem to invite their social circles to the bar anymore and either leave with someone they know or go home alone.

 

[Mike32ct]

With all due respect, I think you under-rate your looks. Height + hair + good build + decent face already easily puts you in the top 20% of guys your age.

I will have do DISAGREE with Backbreaker.

I had stuff happen to me in my early to mid 30's, that DID not happen in my 20's.

First off, I am no strikingly handsome GQ Model. I am on the tall side, have all my hair and pretty good physique, but facial aesthetics lean more towards the average. People say I resemble Matt Lauer; about a 7.5 in looks.

Some examples of what has happened last few years.

I also, AM NOT RICH, I drive a Hyundai and make 55K a year;

1.) Hooked up with a pretty good looking 22 year old (HB 7.5) when I was 33.
2.) Got a handjob from a decent looking 25 year old when I was 35.
3.) Had an 18 year old High School senior co-worker think I was good looking and she made comments (not to my face) about wanting to make out with me.
4.) Was stopped by a group of high school girls on train last year who said "Hi" and that they really liked my coat. When I asked them how old they were, they replied "Old enough".

These are just some examples, I get MORE female attention from women in their early to mid 20's NOW, then when I was early to mid 20's myself.

I believe MOST women are attracted to men who look 10 years older.

 

[Lexington]

The problem with what you say is you just throw thing out there like everything is easy.

One thing I have never said is that it's easy. I'm not claiming it's easy at all. If it were easy, every guy in the world would be swimming in poon.

For example a male 6. If women don't think you are above average then being a 6 is not a given like you suggest. You can't just magically make yourself a 6 and more attractive than 60% of the guys out there who are also trying to attract women.

There's nothing "magic" about improving yourself. It takes time, effort and perseverance. People "try" to do many things but they fail.

Theoretically, every wants to be rich. There are very few people that want to be poor. Yet there are so many poor people.

Probably a few years ago women thought I was about a 6 or so and it was easier. Your hair can thin, and you can just start to look older at some point, etc. good bye 6.

While you were getting older and your hair was thinning, what else were you doing with your life? Were you improving your financial position? Were you buying nicer clothes? Were you driving a nicer car? Were you acquiring better social skills? Were you working out? Were you doing lots of approaches? Did you cultivate hobbies? Did you build an interesting life?

You say it is easy to do 10 approaches and 20-40 approaches you will get a hot girl.

I didn't say it's easy to 10 approaches (at least not initially). But it's not easy to study to do well on a test either. It's not easy to push yourself at the gym every day. It's not easy to stay on top of your finances. It's not easy to keep your house tidy.

You can't seriously tell me that most guys out there are trying their hardest or anywhere near it.

Well that's not been my experience. It's not easy to do 10 approaches without being in the bar a long while unless you don't mind approaching girls who are talking to other guys.

I suppose this would be difficult if you lived in a podunk town. It shouldn't be that difficult in any decent size city. If you live in a sh*t town, you might want to re-evaluate your lifestyle choices.

And a lot of those guys who are "with" girls aren't actually fvcking them. These girls are dressed to impress, they're drinking in a high energy atmosphere and they're looking to have a good time. You're telling me, not even 2.5% (1/40) would be down to fvck on a Day 2 at least?

You also risk looking like the approach loser in the bar.

Again, if it's a podunk hick town I guess this is true. But in most places, this is an exaggerated fear and stems from the ego. Honestly, do you really think most people give that much of a fvck about you?

Other dudes in the bar are busy trying to fvck the girls that have Friend Zoned them. Some people are just there to get smashed. Some people are there because they are miserable and they want to numb the pain. Most are too busy dealing with their own problems to pay attention to you.

And 20-40 approaches is not a guarantee. I've done as many 50-100 to just get an average girl.

If you did 100 approaches and couldn't land an HB7 on this scale, then you're not a 6. Either that or your approaches were awful and you really need to work on your basic social/grooming/hygiene skills.

You might think that's a lot but I knew a lot of guys that were doing as much or more to get a pick up and they weren't really even hot girls.

Again, I doubt these guys were 6s then. A fair number of people would say a 6 is attractive. These guys couldn't approach 100 girls and land a single 6 or 7? They must have some major issues to have such a poor (<1% success rate).

Hot girls seem to invite their social circles to the bar anymore and either leave with someone they know or go home alone.

If these girls are so very selective in who they fvck, they must be meeting their c0ck donors somewhere, right? Fair enough, it's not at the bars. Then why don't you try and get into a social circle? Chicks can't ride the c0ck carousel if there are no c0cks to ride.

 

[jhl]

If you did 100 approaches and couldn't land an HB7 on this scale, then you're not a 6. Either that or your approaches were awful and you really need to work on your basic social/grooming/hygiene skills.

Off topic but who actually agrees with that scale? I can't believe anyone would consider most of those 9s as "9s". That Asian girl is more like a 7 at best.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Off topic but who actually agrees with that scale? I can't believe anyone would consider most of those 9s as "9s". That Asian girl is more like a 7 at best.

Yeah that scale is all off. The 1-4's are all mostly deformed and really 1's-2's maybe 0's up to 2's at best. The 6-7's are mostly 3-5's. Some of the 8's were accurate but some of the 9's were 6's and not as good looking as some of the scale's 7-8's. Basically the scale is off by 2-3 points, so is useless. And there's no body. I count the body half of the rating at least.

Of course I've picked up 6's by this scale because they are 4's. Girls that I consider 6's are almost always with young guys who are M8's.

I can't debate with Lexington. He misunderstands or misconstrues everything I'm saying and throws a dozen more things out there.

 

[Stagger Lee]

One thing I have never said is that it's easy. I'm not claiming it's easy at all. If it were easy, every guy in the world would be swimming in poon.

OK, but it should be easy for a decent looking guy with a job to get one girl. It use to be easy. Not anymore.

There's nothing "magic" about improving yourself. It takes time, effort and perseverance. People "try" to do many things but they fail.

Theoretically, every wants to be rich. There are very few people that want to be poor. Yet there are so many poor people.

But the thing is if the improvement you need is a combination of growing back lost hair, getting taller, a new/younger complexion, more facial symmetry and balance etc, what are you going to do? These are the things I believe matter the most or at least women can require on top of all the other stuff.

While you were getting older and your hair was thinning, what else were you doing with your life? Were you improving your financial position? Were you buying nicer clothes? Were you driving a nicer car? Were you acquiring better social skills? Were you working out? Were you doing lots of approaches? Did you cultivate hobbies? Did you build an interesting life?

Yeah darn I should've became a millionaire and bought a new Porsche lol. I was doing some of those things. But let's be honest here none of that, clothes or a nicer car, would attract women if you weren't already attractive enough. Plus it take a lot of time away from chasing women.

I didn't say it's easy to 10 approaches (at least not initially). But it's not easy to study to do well on a test either. It's not easy to push yourself at the gym every day. It's not easy to stay on top of your finances. It's not easy to keep your house tidy.

Those are not analogous at all.

You can't seriously tell me that most guys out there are trying their hardest or anywhere near it.

Nor should they be. If you aren't getting anything with just normal effort then more effort isn't going to pay off. There's guys that have done 1000's of approaches and only gotten less than a few dozen lays. When you're not attractive enough, you're just not attractive enough.

I suppose this would be difficult if you lived in a podunk town. It shouldn't be that difficult in any decent size city. If you live in a sh*t town, you might want to re-evaluate your lifestyle choices.

I'm talking about even in a crowded club. You can't find 10 groups of girls that aren't with and talking to guys any club I've been too. You'll be approaching girls that aren't showing you any invitation and that's often ineffective.

And a lot of those guys who are "with" girls aren't actually fvcking them. These girls are dressed to impress, they're drinking in a high energy atmosphere and they're looking to have a good time. You're telling me, not even 2.5% (1/40) would be down to fvck on a Day 2 at least?

I'm know they're not always fvking the guys they're with but who wants to sword fight over the attention of the girl? I'm saying that you have to be quite attractive to cold approach and pull a girl home out of her mixed group. Phone numbers and day 2's are unreliable.

Again, if it's a podunk hick town I guess this is true. But in most places, this is an exaggerated fear and stems from the ego. Honestly, do you really think most people give that much of a fvck about you?

Other dudes in the bar are busy trying to fvck the girls that have Friend Zoned them. Some people are just there to get smashed. Some people are there because they are miserable and they want to numb the pain. Most are too busy dealing with their own problems to pay attention to you.

It's not like that. It's more like a bunch of 20 year old girls in their circles and even more guys all trying to get laid. And yes people do notice the older guy, or the guy approaching a lot.

If you did 100 approaches and couldn't land an HB7 on this scale, then you're not a 6. Either that or your approaches were awful and you really need to work on your basic social/grooming/hygiene skills.

You're funny. That scale's funny labeling borderline deformed female faces as 5-6s lol. No wonder females are so hypergamous if deformed girls and masculine female faces are rated 4-6's.

Again, I doubt these guys were 6s then. A fair number of people would say a 6 is attractive. These guys couldn't approach 100 girls and land a single 6 or 7? They must have some major issues to have such a poor (<1% success rate).

You are under the delusion that a male 6 regularly gets female 6's. It's more like male 6's are the minimum to be in the game at all. They're fvcking mostly 3-4's, which I guess would be 6's on that wack scale you posted lol.

If these girls are so very selective in who they fvck, they must be meeting their c0ck donors somewhere, right? Fair enough, it's not at the bars. Then why don't you try and get into a social circle? Chicks can't ride the c0ck carousel if there are no c0cks to ride.

You're not getting it. Women meet men they're fvcking every where but they are all dating up in looks. The clubs are full of a surplus of good looking, young guys. Didn't I say that every girl has a guy on her constantly at the bars, with even more men licking their chops waiting around? The females are fvcking a small percentage of guys. And how do propose a guy pushing 40 years old is going to get into a social circle of mostly 22 year old college people. That's hard enough for college guys to do.

 

[Boilermaker]

Nodoby can fight with the relentless defeatism and fatalist thinking of Stagger Lee.

His views on the whole Attraction theory boil down to 2 key points.

1) A guy has to be good looking to be successful with women.

2) Correction, A guy has to be very good looking to be successful with women.

He will very reluctantly concede that the only exceptions are the insanely rich and famous.

Those are the only people who are having sex with attractive women. Period.

 

[backbreaker]

Well I'm not just theorizing and KJing. I'm talking from personal experience and from what I've seen. The guys saying just approach young, hot girls often enough with the right "game" are theorizing in my opinion. You generally have to be good looking and youthful enough or you're rejected before you start aka as being "creepy".

I don't know how anyone who's not a good looking 20 year old guy or looks like a 20 year old can deny it's rough. What's wrong with complaining a little about it lol? Nothing we type here is going to get anyone a hot girl in their lap anyway lol.

this is why i don't agree with you.

take the girl that brought me to this site. she was legitly out of my league when i first came to this site. however i kept trying and i eventually figured out what it would take to get a girl like that and i wasn't it. so i became it.

if you go out and you talk to hot 20 somethings enough and keep getting rejected, eventually you will figure out what it is that they want or better stated, what you aren't bringing to the table or what yu are doing wrong and fix it. i don't believe in the "you will eventually find one" theory but i do believe in the "I keep trying and i will figure this **** out" theory

 

[Scormus]

Off topic but who actually agrees with that scale? I can't believe anyone would consider most of those 9s as "9s". That Asian girl is more like a 7 at best.

Rating girls without seeing their bodies? Are you kidding me for me 90% is about the long legs and sexy body.

 

[zekko]

this is one of those things i have to see with my own two eyes. we are suopposed to be going to watch the football game thursday at a bar

My guess is that these guys simply aren't trying, or only making very half hearted attempts.

By the way, I'm thinking that the real reason you're posting this is because you've just turned 30 and you haven't quite figured out how your age affects your new place in the world. I've been there. I think you'll find out that being 30 is no big deal. I would gladly relive my 30s before reliving my 20s.

Besides, what about your dad? Where does he fit into all this? He's an older guy who is always banging younger women, yes? Is he creepy also?

Let me tell you something. You go out and do it. You want 9.5s, you go out, you hit on 9.5s, and you fail, and fail, and fail. But eventually if you're smart you'll correct, adjust, and try again. If your goal is to pull a 9.5, you will eventually pull one if you keep trying and adjusting.

The problem I have with this is I have never met a 9.5. I grade on a fairly rigid scale though. I don't believe in 10s, and the highest rating I've ever given a girl is 9.2.

My feeling with HB9s is that yeah, most guys can "pull" them for a little action or whatever, with the right approach or timing. But to keep one on long term as a girlfriend or wife, that's another thing entirely. These women have a lot of options and to keep one around you've got to have a lot to offer.

Nor should they be. If you aren't getting anything with just normal effort then more effort isn't going to pay off. There's guys that have done 1000's of approaches and only gotten less than a few dozen lays. When you're not attractive enough, you're just not attractive enough.

I don't share Stagger's pessimistic view. Yeah, life is hard, and it's a struggle fighting for what you want. Maybe you can't get that supermodel, but unless you are incredibly hideous and awkward you should be able to find at least some decent girl.

Having said that, Lee brings up an interesting point. If you're a well below average guy, is it worth it to rack up 1000s of approaches (in this case, probably painful ones) to find a few successes? That's a lot of effort to put in. There seems to be a new attitude on this forum lately suggesting that women simply aren't worth that kind of effort. Would it be worth it?

 

[Lexington]

OK, but it should be easy for a decent looking guy with a job to get one girl. It use to be easy. Not anymore.

Should be easy? According to who?

There's guys that have done 1000's of approaches and only gotten less than a few dozen lays.

There's guys that have done 10 approaches and got 3-4 lays.

When you're not attractive enough, you're just not attractive enough.

Attractive enough according to who? You didn't agree with the scale I used. Fair enough. You're welcome to post your own scale but I guarantee you that many guys would disagree with you on it.

When we can't even define exactly what constitutes an 8 or 9 or 7, that means there must be a substantial amount of wiggle room in pairing.

I'm know they're not always fvking the guys they're with but who wants to sword fight over the attention of the girl?

It's not that hard to dispatch with an Orbiter. Heck, the girl is hardly paying him attention anyway. Considering that males of many species fight to the death for females, I don't think we have it that bad.

You're funny. That scale's funny labeling borderline deformed female faces as 5-6s lol. No wonder females are so hypergamous if deformed girls and masculine female faces are rated 4-6's.

Post your scale. I'll be glad to use that as a common frame of reference. I just happened to use a scale that has been going around the Manosphere. If it's not valid, why don't you propose a better one?

Women meet men they're fvcking every where but they are all dating up in looks.

This is impossible. There is roughly the same number of men and women in the 20s to 30s age range (there are slightly more women than men overall). At least some women must be dating at or below their level. Either that, or the vast majority of women are single at any given time.

The clubs are full of a surplus of good looking, young guys.

Ok, so you say this and then go on to say:

The females are fvcking a small percentage of guys.

If females are fvcking a small percentage of guys (presumably young, good looking guys), then demand for these guys must vastly exceed supply. But there's now a surplus of these dudes in clubs?

 

[Colossus]

I think guys, red pillers even, obsess way too much about looks.

Do you like her? Does she give you a boner??? Then FVCK it, that's all you need to approach.

Yeah, of course looks matter, but I think an average looking guy with rock solid confidence and presence can KILL. Just play your strengths hard and build your weaknesses. If you are a handsome stud, use handsome guy game. If you are average looking guy with social presence, use that game. If you have unusual status, play the status game. Nothing wrong with using big guns if you have 'em.

This is a little truism I've learned: The higher you are on the looks scale, the more girls you can pluck with less effort. In other words, there are just greater numbers of females "below" you on the looks ladder and they are much more forgiving with lack of game. In my experience anyway. I've pulled lots of chicks with fairly minimal effort, just coasting on my looks and some natural wit. BUT---they were almost all "below" me on the looks ladder. And this is not to be boastful at all, this is just fact. For the hotter girls, like 8+, I would need to step my game up. They aren't going to fall into my lap.

For LTRs, I think as long as she gives YOU a boner consistently, that's all you need. Other attributes matter way more.

 

[nismo-4]

This post can use my input.

Replace power/money/game with STATUS and you are correct.

I'd add status to all of that and replace it with value.

If you have Looks and Status. You are in. My experience has been that those are the two most important items. Followed by Game, and then Money.

There exists the Looks, money, status (LMS) argument and game appears nowhere because it's in the grey area of attraction.

The reason those older celebrities do well is because women tend to like older men, and those men have ridiculous status.

Replace status with value or add value and you are correct.

Having said all of that, I am a big believer in game because it has helped me get laid. A lot. But I also completely agree with Backbreaker and the OP that there is a real entitlement issue going on here with women.

Game amplifies the attraction that's already there. Just like indifference. There has to be some attraction or interest present for it to work.

We are told over and over again that men are failing or falling behind.....What I think is really happening is that society is so damn intent on pedestalizing women and girls, that here they are all acting like princesses believing they are special and NOBODY is good enough for them. (Except for those top 20% of men who are rotating through the hordes and laying each of them).

I'd say it's more 10% but it's the same thing. This is why women have so much control in the dating game. Well, that and the legions of failing men/ white knights/ beta males.

Sure, some men can learn game to improve their lives with women. But game is like a catalyst in chemistry. It does nothing unless it has some chemicals to work with.

Like I said, a woman has to have some sort of interest in you in order for any form of game to work. Game doesn't make your physical or financial attractiveness go up.

Likewise, game will do nothing for you if you do not at least have status, looks, money or something else brought to the game. This, however, does not mean game doesn't help. It absolutely does.

Like I stated before. It helps you seal the deal. If the attraction is there, don't put your foot in your mouth.

For some men it is the key ingredient to finally landing women. For others, game might not be the component that needs the most work in their life. I would go so far as to say that many men here should focus more on getting status and confidence than game in general.

Confidence...see what was written about game. What good does confidence do if you have nothing to ACTUALLY BE CONFIDENT IN? Confidence isn't gonna suddenly make you more attractive, well sexually attractive. It can land you in the friendzone most of the time, as attraction isn't arousal. The magic bullet for maximizing success with women is turning your looks, money, and status up to (and past) eleven. Easier said than done, but doable.

Read bet- you know the drill.

 

[corrector]

Having said that, Lee brings up an interesting point. If you're a well below average guy, is it worth it to rack up 1000s of approaches (in this case, probably painful ones) to find a few successes? That's a lot of effort to put in. There seems to be a new attitude on this forum lately suggesting that women simply aren't worth that kind of effort. Would it be worth it?

According to Stagger, even if you were successful it would probably be a UG 3-4 and the rejections may be harsh or painful. If it's worth it? If at the end of the day you get into a relationship, then you are going to think, gee, she has plenty of options and can just pick up another guy while you have to make another 1000+ approaches if it doesn't work out. Also, you may find herself throwing herself at other guys and start feeling bad.

 

[Stagger Lee]

this is why i don't agree with you.

take the girl that brought me to this site. she was legitly out of my league when i first came to this site. however i kept trying and i eventually figured out what it would take to get a girl like that and i wasn't it. so i became it.

if you go out and you talk to hot 20 somethings enough and keep getting rejected, eventually you will figure out what it is that they want or better stated, what you aren't bringing to the table or what yu are doing wrong and fix it. i don't believe in the "you will eventually find one" theory but i do believe in the "I keep trying and i will figure this **** out" theory

You now disagree with me BB lol? How many times do you say you are or became a good looking guy but at first lacked experience/game? And you were in your prime and early 20's then. And this girl was a 9 or 10 by your estimate. Now, could your 30 year old friends who you made this thread about who can't get any girl, get that girl by just talking to more girls?

How can you be in disagreement when we are not really talking about the same thing? I've said several times that young, good looking guys have a shot with young, attractive girls. They have potential but tend to lack experience and confidence with girls, so practice can help them. But for an around average looking guys over 30, it's a different story.

And I did figure out what hot, 20 year old girls want. They want an attractive guy with no physical shortcomings who is close to her age and extraverted, outgoing.

 

[SteR]

There seems to be a new attitude on this forum lately suggesting that women simply aren't worth that kind of effort. Would it be worth it?

Ha, this is honestly something I'm really struggling with.. and I wonder whether it's because of my age or simply because I've spent too much time on this forum.

Recently I took a look through facebook and it dawned on my how horribly all of the girls I used to pine over have turned out. The worst thing is that these girls aren't even old.. they're like 29?

At this stage it just feels like 'why bother?'. I'm sure I'd completely change if I met somebody that shared the same values and I really got on with, but with the attitudes girls have nowadays I just can't see that happening any time soon..

 

[Stagger Lee]

This is obvious, which is why I expect StagLee is deluding himself into thinking he is entitled to women outside his looks and game. No one ever even implied that a dwarf can get Scarlett Johansson lol.

I know plenty of guys I'd say at least average even slightly handsome and over 6'1 who are not able to pick up unless the girls are average to below average in about every measure. I'm not talking about below average guys getting above average girls. I'm saying you have to be an above average guy to get ANY girls and a top tier looking guy to get attractive girls. Girls who are over 8's are essentially minor celebrities. At least that's how it is with cold approaches in bars and online dating. LTR game within a social circle you might get closer to looks matched.

I suspect you over rate females and yourself and under rate other guys. So you delude yourself into think "game" must be the reason these "inferior looking" guys are getting "hot" women.

 

[zekko]

I've said several times that young, good looking guys have a shot with young, attractive girls. They have potential but tend to lack experience and confidence with girls, so practice can help them. But for an around average looking guys over 30, it's a different story.

I think "game" is mostly aimed at these young, good looking guys who lack experience and confidence. That's why Mystery picked one of the better looking contestants as the winner of The Pickup Artist. Game looks to give these guys what they're missing (experience and confidence), and that is like giving them a key that opens the door to success for them.

For more average guys, it's probably not realistic to expect the same kind of results that the high value guys get. But practice will still help them, and I guarantee they're going to get better results by getting out and trying than by laying down and giving up. Although sometimes when you hit bottom that can trigger a rush of positive energy and motivation to change.

By the way, I'm 52 frigging years old, and you guys talking about how 30 year olds are over the hill and can't compete any more makes me laugh. In my eyes, a 30 year old is a spring chicken, in the prime of life. Don't waste all of it away crying about how bad you have it.

 

[Scormus]

Zekko - true dat but its also realistic and mature to accept that past say 35 with each year all else equal our pulling power is less, that's just life.