The Great Irony of the SMV theory

[BeDJ]

My personal experience is that 30-something guys have no problems pulling. 40-something guys have even less problem.

However, you can't do it in the way that 20-something guys do it.

If you're 35 or older.....

NO:
-Clubs
-Bars (iffy)
-"Day Game"
-"Mall Game"

YES:
-Tennis/golf clubs
-Crossfit (if you like ripped chicks)
-Yoga
-Community college classes
-Special interest clubs
-Wine tasting
-Dance classes

Basically you've got to step it up in sophistication level. And why wouldn't you want to, anyway? You're a full-fledged adult, you're not going to be standing around in clubs and hitting on women with dozens of other chodes wearing Ed Hardy, music blaring so loud you can't hear your own words, and bouncers giving you stink-eye.

That stuff is for kids. And the kids know it. That's why you, as a 30-50 year old, look like a douche in those venues. Because those venues suck. You're better than that.

Zarky,

I don't get it. You are talking about sophistication while bumming on another man's pillow. I don't think you should offer any more advice until you shape up your own life. I recently read a post about an HB 6 is the best that you can do. Just as long as you get the bang? Come on, SoSuave doesn't judge you on your notch count. Is that not the case?

Maybe, you want to do better than HB6's, regardless of your facial deficiencies and lack of game. Do you think you can score an HB 8? My assumption would be that -

Zarky will wife up that HB8 because that's like winning the lottery. What man will pass up that opportunity?

See Zarky, you will be thrilled with having a job making 50k a year. Your standards are incredibly low. 5's and 6's are all you can get - that's settling for a beta lifestyle. Most men do it, you're not alone. You have lost all hope on life and are just trying to justify your your own short-comings. I can't put my finger on what to call it....someone that doesn't try and blames others?.........sh!t, I had it but then I los ------ Oh yes, a beta faggot

 

[zekko]

NO:
-Clubs
-Bars (iffy)
-"Day Game"
-"Mall Game"

YES:
-Tennis/golf clubs
-Crossfit (if you like ripped chicks)
-Yoga
-Community college classes
-Special interest clubs
-Wine tasting
-Dance classes

Basically you've got to step it up in sophistication level. And why wouldn't you want to, anyway? You're a full-fledged adult, you're not going to be standing around in clubs and hitting on women with dozens of other chodes wearing Ed Hardy, music blaring so loud you can't hear your own words, and bouncers giving you stink-eye.

Nice list, Zarky. People say clubbing isn't good for older guys, yet the pickup gurus still make that the focus of their training, and a lot of them are getting up there in years now.

In a nutshell, I imagine myself more like the World's Most Interesting Man from those Dos Equis commercials. Or at least that's the goal to shoot for - someone well-traveled, who can talk to men and women with ease. I think every guy should aim for some kind of version of this after 30...drop the frat boy routine and snarky/locker room humor and be a Renaissance man. If I can talk to men about manly things and to women in a way that makes them feel feminine, I'll have no problem with "pickup."

This is the sort of thing that sets the older guy apart and gives him his charm. A smart young woman will appreciate the sophisticated difference from the typical frat boy douchebags she usually runs into.

If nothing else, by the time you get into your 30s, you are probably a little more comfortable talking with women, and a little smoother with your social skills. Your hormones should have eased off a little bit, making you not so desperate to get laid. These things alone should help a guy out a little bit, as long as you don't let yourself go to seed.

 

[Zarky]

Zarky,

I don't get it. You are talking about sophistication while bumming on another man's pillow. I don't think you should offer any more advice until you shape up your own life.

Your entire argument is an ad hominem tu quoque fallacy, and is thus irrelevant.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/13-ad-hominem-tu-quoque

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html

Stop spending your time thinking and writing about me and maybe start addressing my arguments. Otherwise people will start thinking of you as the faggot

 

[BeDJ]

I was very drunk when I made that post. My apologies, it won't happen again.

 

[Lexington]

i 'm not talking about senior managers, or guys with money or guys that are absolutely jacked. i'm talking about normal ass guys. normal ass, 35k a year, 6-7 on the looks scale, guys. Contrary to internet personas, this is most guys. just about.. well at least 80% of the men i know make about 30-45k a year, aren't ugly but aren't hot, aren't in ****ty shape but aren't in great shape. don't have alot of real negatives but don't have a lot of real positives.

And right here, you've just explained why these guys aren't getting tail. 6-7 guys of any age who don't have a lot going for them aren't going to get much play from hot 20-somethings. Any guy can be labelled "creepy" if a girl doesn't find him attractive.

The point of the SMV Theory is that men's sexual value does not decline with age as rapidly as women's; it's quite commonplace for men to be with women 5, 10 and even 15 years younger than they are. I don't think this is in dispute.

Obviously, if you don't have much going for you in terms of looks, money, social status and Game, you're not going to get much action. But that's true for any age. That's why it's strongly emphasized here that guys should constantly be striving to improve themselves by making money, learning to be social, exercising and eating right. If you do these things throughout your 20s, chances are you'll be in good shape for your 30s.

 

[backbreaker]

And right here, you've just explained why these guys aren't getting tail. 6-7 guys of any age who don't have a lot going for them aren't going to get much play from hot 20-somethings. Any guy can be labelled "creepy" if a girl doesn't find him attractive.

The point of the SMV Theory is that men's sexual value does not decline with age as rapidly as women's; it's quite commonplace for men to be with women 5, 10 and even 15 years younger than they are. I don't think this is in dispute.

Obviously, if you don't have much going for you in terms of looks, money, social status and Game, you're not going to get much action. But that's true for any age. That's why it's strongly emphasized here that guys should constantly be striving to improve themselves by making money, learning to be social, exercising and eating right. If you do these things throughout your 20s, chances are you'll be in good shape for your 30s.

you just did the exact same thing as synergy did on page one. no where did i say they were striking out with hot 20 somethings. they aren't getting anything. they can't even get decent looking 30 somethings.

if it were as simple as them shooting out of their league there would be no need for this post.

 

[Stagger Lee]

you just did the exact same thing as synergy did on page one. no where did i say they were striking out with hot 20 somethings. they aren't getting anything. they can't even get decent looking 30 somethings.

if it were as simple as them shooting out of their league there would be no need for this post.

I don't think guys get or will admit just how "picky" women are now. And no, guys 10 to 15 years older are not getting younger girls. More like women 10 to 15 years older are getting younger guys.

I honestly believe that maybe only 40-50% of men are even in the game and can get ANY women at all and largely for reason beyond their control. And a much smaller fraction is getting attractive women. Hell there aren't really all that many percentage of attractive women to begin with with all the fatties. And older men getting hot, attractive women is probably much lower than 5%. And no "game" and a good job and ok looks is not going to get you there.

The bottom line is female hypergamy is at insane levels. And attraction is appearance and one can only improve it so much especially in the face of aging.

The sad part is guys like your friends probably could be dating attractive 20 year olds if say it were 25 to 30 years ago. The sexual market really sucks for most guys. Probably the best they could do today is 30-40 year old HB2-3 and warpigs and even then it'd be a numbers game.

 

[Lexington]

you just did the exact same thing as synergy did on page one. no where did i say they were striking out with hot 20 somethings. they aren't getting anything. they can't even get decent looking 30 somethings.

if it were as simple as them shooting out of their league there would be no need for this post.

Fair enough. But the same logic still applies. Decently attractive post-Wall chicks have better options than the types you described.

 

[Lexington]

I don't think guys get or will admit just how "picky" women are now. And no, guys 10 to 15 years older are not getting younger girls. More like women 10 to 15 years older are getting younger guys.

I honestly believe that maybe only 40-50% of men are even in the game and can get ANY women at all and largely for reason beyond their control. And a much smaller fraction is getting attractive women. Hell there aren't really all that many percentage of attractive women to begin with with all the fatties. And older men getting hot, attractive women is probably much lower than 5%. And no "game" and a good job and ok looks is not going to get you there.

The bottom line is female hypergamy is at insane levels. And attraction is appearance and one can only improve it so much especially in the face of aging.

The sad part is guys like your friends probably could be dating attractive 20 year olds if say it were 25 to 30 years ago. The sexual market really sucks for most guys. Probably the best they could do today is 30-40 year old HB2-3 and warpigs and even then it'd be a numbers game.

*sigh* more defeatism......

Katie Perry- was married to Russell Brand (38) and now dating John Mayer (35).

Meagan Fox- married and knocked up by a guy who's 40.

Amber Heard- 27 years old and dating 50 year old Johnny Depp.

Catherine Zeta Jones- married a man 25 years her senior when she was in her prime as an A-list actor

These are all top models/pop stars/A-list actresses. They are literally at the top of the hypergamy pyramid. You're telling me there aren't a bunch of rich,famous 20-something dudes that wouldn't love to jump their bones?

 

[Stagger Lee]

This thread is a very good point in my argument that 20% of the men are getting 80% of the sex.

Exactly and when most all men are doing everything under the sun to be in the 20% only those with the most natural, genetic advantages and luck can get there. This is what happens when you don't have a mostly monogamous system. Women have it easy and date up, while men have it super competitive and date down.

 

[Stagger Lee]

*sigh* more defeatism......

Katie Perry- was married to Russell Brand (38) and now dating John Mayer (35).

Meagan Fox- married and knocked up by a guy who's 40.

Amber Heard- 27 years old and dating 50 year old Johnny Depp.

Catherine Zeta Jones- married a man 25 years her senior when she was in her prime as an A-list actor

These are all top models/pop stars/A-list actresses. They are literally at the top of the hypergamy pyramid. You're telling me there aren't a bunch of rich,famous 20-something dudes that wouldn't love to jump their bones?

This is so retarded. No one disputes that very rich and famous and handsome older men can date younger. Those guys are all very rich, famous and good looking. Most of the rich, famous, 20-somethings, and their aren't many, have harems of hot 20 year old girls available.

What's true for multimillionare and famous older men who are pretty handsome to boot doesn't apply to 99% of the rest of the older men.

 

[nismo-4]

Fair enough. But the same logic still applies. Decently attractive post-Wall chicks have better options than the types you described.

Even b**ches unattractive post-wall have more options than the average man. A woman, regardless of age and looks, will have near infinite options. She can just be sitting on a bench in a park and she'll get at least 3 offers in that day. Let an average man do that. How many offers do you think he'll get? He'll be lucky if he even gets ONE!

Your looks, money, and status compromise your value, which women look at most.

Do women even fear rejection? I think not, being there are so many beta males in the world, with that number growing daily.

 

[Mike32ct]

Now, we're getting somewhere. I'm with Stagger, Danger, Nismo, and BB on this one.

Average is (considered by women) the new ugly. IME, only men use the term average. With women, it's hot/not hot, cute/not cute, my type/not my type, etc. Average guys (give or take) are not on the map at all.

These guys are hoping for a woman who is also average, but it doesn't work that way anymore.

 

[synergy1]

I don't think guys get or will admit just how "picky" women are now. And no, guys 10 to 15 years older are not getting younger girls. More like women 10 to 15 years older are getting younger guys.

From my observations, women are more picky in areas with fewer hot women. This includes the ugly ones. With no competition, this creates an entitlement attitude that women don't have to work on themselves at all to get men. In areas with a lot of ugly women this is certainly true. However in places like where BB is from, the more hot women actually makes it easier. Competition isn't something thats good for business...its good for dating too.

 

[Stagger Lee]

From my observations, women are more picky in areas with fewer hot women. This includes the ugly ones. With no competition, this creates an entitlement attitude that women don't have to work on themselves at all to get men. In areas with a lot of ugly women this is certainly true. However in places like where BB is from, the more hot women actually makes it easier. Competition isn't something thats good for business...its good for dating too.

I'm not so sure though. Women don't have to compete because men will fcvk any girl whether she's hot or not. There's a lot of attractive women in my midwestern city. But they are mostly early to mid 20's and college students and stuck up to high heaven. I can be at a club downtown with hot young girls every where and i'll find the one old, fat and ugly girl that's there. And guess what she's acting like she's hot sh!t too and getting hit on by plenty of guys.

The times I went out west and even back to Texas I've had better results with women than here. But BB and his friends are in southern California and his friends are still struggling there. Isn't there lots of good looking women in southern california even in their 30's and older?

Hyper-competiton is not good and is stressful. Only men have to compete and not women anyway. If women were actually competiting for men then men wouldn't be facing hyper-competition in the first place.

I'm not entirely discounting what you're saying. Some parts of the country have less attractive women and the women are more difficult. But the only time women had to actually compete for men is back when there was monogamy. Women, had to be youthful, pure, thin, attractive, feminine etc to get a man to commit. When it's just hook ups, women don't have to compete to get guys they find attractive.

 

[backbreaker]

I mean, like, tomorrow is mrs backbreaker's birthday. we will be throwing her a party tomorrow night and she's got like 5-6 single friends who are in their upper thirties, and none of them are what i would deem attractive. i'm 10000% positive if my 2 friends made a pass at any one of them they would jump at it.

but that's my point. they should not have to settle for that. they are in their 30's. the game should be easier than settling for 300 pound overweight women. they aren't ugly, they aren't losers, they should be able to snag 30-35 year old HB6-7 trim dammit and can't. it's pissing me off lol.

this is one of those things i have to see with my own two eyes. we are suopposed to be going to watch the football game thursday at a bar

 

[Lexington]

This is so retarded. No one disputes that very rich and famous and handsome older men can date younger. Those guys are all very rich, famous and good looking. Most of the rich, famous, 20-somethings, and their aren't many, have harems of hot 20 year old girls available.

What's true for multimillionare and famous older men who are pretty handsome to boot doesn't apply to 99% of the rest of the older men.

Yes but your theory that attraction is "mostly looks" has been discredited. You say that attraction is mostly looks right? Game/money can compensate somewhat, but looks are the most important factor in your book.

These broads are all among the most desirable women in America. They are sex symbols, they are rich, they are famous. They can get a guy who is attractive, rich, famous and young. Let me add Beyonce to that list....married to a 43 year old Jay-Z.

Look, I know you could argue all those guys are good looking. I wouldn't disagree (except about Jay-Z though...that dude looks goofy). But let's be honest here, most of these guys are not in peak physical condition. There are plenty of younger, "prettier" men who have money and fame (e.g. pro athletes).

So in conclusion, I do agree that "looks" are a significant factor. For some women it is the the most important factor. But it's only one part of the equation. What one lacks in looks can be compensated for somewhat through power/money/Game.

 

[Lexington]

All due respect - some of you guys are debating a bunch of irrelevant shyt.

Your charge as a DJ is to go out and approach the women you want to approach. NOT the women some statistical analysis tells you are in your supposed range. It's to create and enjoy a wide range of options, not to complain about the options of others.

Looks+status+wealth+game=who cares? This ain't philosophy or cultural studies. The only thing that should matter to you is YOUR looks, YOUR status, YOUR wealth, and above all, YOUR game. Is it all where you want it to be? If not, get back to work.

When you go out and hit on a girl, are you concerned with where Russell Brand is in the SMV? Are you calculating your status level vs. her looks ranking? How about backbreaker's two buddies - you gonna think about them when you go out sarging? "Gee, they're having trouble pulling lately. I think I'll go home and jack off instead. After all, what's the point? I'm not in the 20%!" (Or 10% depending on whom you ask.)

Let me tell you something. You go out and do it. You want 9.5s, you go out, you hit on 9.5s, and you fail, and fail, and fail. But eventually if you're smart you'll correct, adjust, and try again. If your goal is to pull a 9.5, you will eventually pull one if you keep trying and adjusting. It is a truth that if you want something bad enough and work for it you will attain it. Your brain will give you plenty of logical excuses to give up.

(Full disclosure: I am not currently out doing it. But I've run out of excuses. My period of mourning and exercise is finished.)

Surely you gents have pulled one who's "out of your league" before. I know i have. But then - if I pulled her, she wasn't out of my league. Funny how that works. Irrational self confidence, fellas. I'm all for science and reason when it comes to understanding women. But when you're seducing? Chuck it. With all that reason you can talk yourself out of anything. Besides, women don't get wet for statisticians.

I agree with you. I was just providing some real world examples to counter what I see as defeatist thinking.

Even if it's true that a 6 guy is unlikely to land an HB9, with enough approaches, even a 6 could score a 9. Once in how many approaches? Once in 20 approaches? Once in 40 approaches?

If a guy really wanted to, he could do 10 approaches a night easy. You go out 4 times, you score once. You go out once or twice a week and it takes you 2-4 weeks to score a 9.

But I guess it's easier to complain about how "game doesn't work."

 

[Stagger Lee]

Well I'm not just theorizing and KJing. I'm talking from personal experience and from what I've seen. The guys saying just approach young, hot girls often enough with the right "game" are theorizing in my opinion. You generally have to be good looking and youthful enough or you're rejected before you start aka as being "creepy".

I don't know how anyone who's not a good looking 20 year old guy or looks like a 20 year old can deny it's rough. What's wrong with complaining a little about it lol? Nothing we type here is going to get anyone a hot girl in their lap anyway lol.

 

[Mike32ct]

IME, the only way to "punch above your weight" and pull a chick much better looking than you is to find one who is alone or isolated from her friends AND is at totally DTF AND too tired to sit there longer for Mr. Hunk to show up.

It's POSSIBLE, but very difficult and requires the proper alignment of the planets lol. You really have to be in the right place at the right time.

BUT, as Stagger points out, you need looks/youth on your side to avoid looking like a creep. Otherwise, you can't play the numbers game in cold approach pickups.

It's not a game I can really play anymore because of the age/looks/creep factor, except for maybe a MILF once in a great while.