The Great Irony of the SMV theory

[Scormus]

"Status" can make you handsome.

 

[Lexington]

I'll put it to you like this: Game = marketing.

You can have a fantastic product, but it's not going to make you money if people don't know about it; it needs to be marketed. Of course, if your product just plain sucks, people just aren't going to buy it even with the best marketing.

Take BMW/Mercedes for example. They definitely make some very well-engineered cars. But a big part of their success is promoting them as status symbols and projecting a cool/sexy image.

Take Apple. They make great products....I use several of them. But there's no denying that promoting their stuff as being "cool" played a significant role in their success. Don't think marketing works? Then why do companies spend so much money on it?

 

[cordoncordon]

I have been following this thread but haven't written in it until now as I enjoyed just reading everyone's opinions on things. Congrats to everyone here for keeping this thread mainly on topic and to everyone for keeping it pretty civil even with a difference of opinion. Lots of good info here.

I don't have too much of an opinion about the topic other than to say I became much better at learning how to handle women in my 30's then in my 20's, and I would guess that holds true for most of the guys here. So as a result, my success rate went way up as well. Other factors have helped too such as being able to commit more time to women, wealth, and staying in shape (actually better shape) of course.

Now, with BB talking about the average guy, with average game, with an average build, an average income, and average status? Then yep I agree with him. It will get harder for that guy to attract decent women the older he gets.

Aging can actually be a nice little selling bonus factor for a man when a woman perceives that older man to be "handsome", "mature", "together", "financially set", etc, and not like all of the immature emo boys she sees around. A man like that is someone she can look up to and he would have her respect. But if a woman just sees you as some older guy with no other perceived value? Where you are just average in almost every conceivable way? Then you are just what BB said, an older "creep" and aging becomes a detriment.

 

[SteR]

Now, with BB talking about the average guy, with average game, with an average build, an average income, and average status? Then yep I agree with him. It will get harder for that guy to attract decent women the older he gets.

..But if a woman just sees you as some older guy with no other perceived value? Where you are just average in almost every conceivable way? Then you are just what BB said, an older "creep" and aging becomes a detriment.

But when you think about it, how can it be any other way? Why on earth would any moderately attractive woman desire a man that doesn't take care of himself, has very little resources and has no noticeable value?

If you look at it from a purely biological perspective (ie. consider the amount of time/effort it takes for a woman to give birth) then surely it's in their best interests to go for the best mate they can? ie. a man that will give good genes to her child and be there to provide the resources for the raising of said child?

It's ridiculous to think you can be sloppy and still demand a woman's attention... it's such a lazy approach. If you really want to draw a woman's attention then of course you should be expected to put in the effort to raise your value. I wouldn't expect anything else..

 

[thefonz]

This is a great thread, and something I've been thinking about a lot recently.

I came to this site when I was 22 and read everything I could get my hands on but the truth is I did not anticipate what it would be like to try to apply pickup past my 20's. I'm not going to give out book-inspired generalizations on this, but I'll tell you what I've discovered in my own experience as a single 30-something.

First...the cons: Truth be told, if you thought cold approaching was tough in your 20's than wait for your 30's. If you choose to take this route, be prepared for the increase of rejections. The anxiety is not nearly as bad, but the limiting beliefs are what really gets you. When I was younger I always thought I could cold approach for the rest of my life, but I didn't fully understand it beyond the thought of "If I keep my skills sharp, looks don't matter." Yes and no.

After you do enough of this stuff, you start to lose interest. You're not going to chase a girl for 2 weeks when you have a REAL job and a much less energy because of that. A hangover from Saturday lasts until noontime Monday so you must remove drunken hookups from the equation. It can be done, but try to be a successful 30-something and spend your time sober around drunks all weekend. It's depressing as ****.

Then add to the fact that EVERYONE at the age of 30 starts getting married/having kids. It's ****ed up. I can't even go on facebook anymore because it's rubbed in my face. Can you deal with that? Also, if you're here I'm assuming you have some degree of family issues so people around you will wonder why you aren't married/having kids yet no matter how successful you are. Be prepared to deal with that as well.

Ok enough of that, now the pros: Did you take care of your body in your 20's? Thankfully, I did and now I can compensate for any kind of baldness and have minimized my aging. Have you created a goal-oriented mindset and discipline of something in your 20's? That will help you stay focused. Did you invest in your career? Now you can put that money into things you actually like to do!

Before I start to write a novel, my point of this is you have to adjust. You're not young, but you're not old either. If you're a creative, self-aware, and thoughtful person you should not have any trouble getting girls.

I'd also like to add that we romanticize our past sometimes and think we were total players when we were younger but in reality it was mostly painful and awkward.

 

[Zarky]

if you thought cold approaching was tough in your 20's than wait for your 30's.

That's only if you choose to continue to "cold approach" women who are in their 20s. In my (limited) experience I've found that a 30-something guy cold-approaching a 30-something girl has a much higher likelihood of a lay than a 20-something guy cold-approaching a 20-something girl. Assuming you don't see a wedding ring, of course.

After you do enough of this stuff, you start to lose interest.

That's true. It's more that you get used to it and don't think as much of it. Dating, I'm referring to.

You're not going to chase a girl for 2 weeks when you have a REAL job and a much less energy because of that.

I'm not sure I would have ever chased a girl for 2 weeks.

A hangover from Saturday lasts until noontime Monday so you must remove drunken hookups from the equation.

whoaaa, buddy. You're 31 and you get that wrecked from drinking? Maybe when you're 51 that happens, but nobody I know in their 30s or even 40s has that much trouble with booze.

It can be done, but try to be a successful 30-something and spend your time sober around drunks all weekend. It's depressing as ****.

Sounds like you have some issues with alcohol.

Then add to the fact that EVERYONE at the age of 30 starts getting married/having kids. It's ****ed up. I can't even go on facebook anymore because it's rubbed in my face. Can you deal with that?

Ummm.. what exactly is "rubbed in your face?" That there are a bunch of beta/gamma shmucks out there who can only get laid if they put a ring on a girl's finger? Sounds like you have some sort of sad unfulfilled desire to be a husband.

Also, if you're here I'm assuming you have some degree of family issues

Don't lay your trip on us! I come from a loving, well-adjusted family. My folks are still together after 47 years and I'm quite close with them as well as my extended family. There is almost no drama whatsoever. No alcoholics, drug abusers, jailbirds, absent fathers, etc. So don't assume that everyone here has "issues."

so people around you will wonder why you aren't married/having kids yet no matter how successful you are. Be prepared to deal with that as well.

Again, the fact that you give a sh*t about what people may or may not think says more about you than anyone here. Nobody I know even questions why I'm not married with kids. I take that back. About 10 years ago one of my aunts said, "So when are you going to give your parents some grandkids?" I laughed and said, "Not any time soon!" That was the last time anybody -- family or friend -- questioned me about my marital choices.

Yours was actually a very interesting post. With all your talk about "success" and married people "rubbing your face in" the fact that you're unmarried, it really sounds like you've swallowed completely the western middle-class idea of what a man's life should be. Work hard, be productive, have a wife and kids, contribute to society in some material way... I've never felt the need to ape that lifestyle. That's why I believe I'm having a great time as a single man approaching his 40s whereas you can't even go on facebook anymore because you're so ashamed about not having a wife and 2.2 kids.

 

[backbreaker]

I certainly agree. When I see attractive girls with guys who seem not particularly handsome it's almost always an early 20's guy with an early 20's girl usually around the university dist. I'm not saying the guys are ugly, and I can't even vouch that they're always in a sexual relationship. But far and away that's the only time I see attractive girls with rather average guys.

I know attracting girls was easier for me even 5 years ago. And 10 to 15 years ago with bad game I was turning down sex with girls I couldn't even get today.

something funny happened to me yesterday

there is this cutie pie at my gym that works there named McKenzie. she's as sweet as a button, very nice, very foksy, about my height (5'8), skinny, petite, very nice legs, very cute. not "hot" in the sense that oh she's the type of chick you would bang a a club but she's the type of chick you look at and think "that's wife material" right there. and she's not a **** or stuck up.

so we have this rapport going obn. nothing sexual or antyhing but we are cool. we chat each other up, talk about ****, her school (She's a junior she's 20), my work. she gave me some advice to try a new exercise machine for cardio, i tell her tv shows she needs to atch **** like that.

anyway yesterday i go to the gym and she's there just playing around lifting weights. she was off work and she said "i'm waiting on my boyfriend to come pick me up".

I"m like okay, in the back of my mind i'm very interseted to see what his girls BF looks like. this girl is a catch. I'm interested to see what type of super alpha male dude picked this chick up


so this ****ing dweeb comes through the door and i'm like really lol? I'm like bro do you even lift lol? which it's clear he doesn't. I mean he's just a normal looking college white dude lol. not ugly. not hot. nothing to write home about.

you would think by reading this forum that all the cute chicks are being slain by 6'1 210 pound rock hard alpha males with a Cerberus-esque 3 headed 14 inch **** handing from their crotch.


I think in general this forum places WAY, WAY too much emphasis on looks. the girl is a catch but i dated girls hotter than this chick BEFORE i came here as a teenager. so what that she's hot. she's still a girl.


I Mean, i wanted to say you could do better than that, but could she? i mean besides being pretty cute, she's a pretty freaking normal girl.


I think the biggest hting i'm trying to say is that, just get out there and play the game and see what happens. i bet this dude could give 2 ****s about her being the girl that works at the gym or how alpha he is or if him picking her up from the gym is a beta move, etc. just play the game and see what happens. get out, do some ****. meet some people.

 

[zekko]

you would think by reading this forum that all the cute chicks are being slain by 6'1 210 pound rock hard alpha males with a Cerberus-esque 3 headed 14 inch **** handing from their crotch.

Lol, so true. But a lot of the time it's simply a case of proximity, or familiarity, or social circle, or being at the right place at the right time.

It occurs to me that there are three types of males:
1) The 6'1 210 pound rock hard alpha male with a Cerberus-esque 3 headed 14 inch **** handing from their crotch.
2) The guy who could be the 6'1 210 pound rock hard alpha male with a Cerberus-esque 3 headed 14 inch **** handing from their crotch, if he would just put enough work into himself.
3) The guy who is never going to be the 6'1 210 pound rock hard alpha males with a Cerberus-esque 3 headed 14 inch **** handing from their crotch, no matter how hard they try.

There's a thread on the general forum, Who Dares Win says:
"I envy guys which have this fairy tale vision of life where they can do something and climb the hill but strongly disagree, if you're danny devito style bald and fat there's no sh1t you can do to have girls genuinely be attracted from you, sure money and fame but they dont touch themselves thinking about you under the shower thats a fact."

Now there's no question Danny Devito is getting laid. He doesn't have to feel bad about himself. But WDW has a point here. He is probaby never going to be "that guy", no matter how hard he tries.

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=208354

 

[SteR]

Lol, so true. But a lot of the time it's simply a case of proximity, or familiarity, or social circle, or being at the right place at the right time.

This is something that's really irritated me about life recently, ha. It really is a case of right place, right time. I've mentioned this before: You could meet a girl in a bar on some random night who is literally perfect for you, yet on that same day she may have had some disappointing news that's left her in an irritable mood. You go to approach and get shot down immediately. Yet on any other day when her mood was normal, something could have happened.

When I was younger I'd especially get frustrated and try to analyse every angle to see where I went wrong. Howver this is completely daft since you'll never understand her motivations so it's a waste of effort. Personally I figure if it's meant to be, it'll be. All you can do is try.

Now there's no question Danny Devito is getting laid. He doesn't have to feel bad about himself. But WDW has a point here. He is probaby never going to be "that guy", no matter how hard he tries.

This is true but it's often been said that people are most attracted to girls that are similar to themselves. Now although I'm sure there is a rough sort of objective beauty, it's quite probable that Danny Devito deep down accepts what he is and knows the kind of woman he can go for.. I think it's the case for everyone. Everyone has a rough sense of their own value. I mean I'm not denying I wouldn't be attracted to a 10/10 supermodel but if I were to meet one in person, I probably wouldn't expect to hook up with her and it wouldn't really bother me a bit. Maybe that's self-limiting? I dunno. Anyway I consider myself a legit 10 so this would never happen

Maybe for guys who are less fortunate with their looks/status they'll naturally be more comfortable with a girl that's more in their 'range'.

 

[backbreaker]

This is something that's really irritated me about life recently, ha. It really is a case of right place, right time. I've mentioned this before: You could meet a girl in a bar on some random night who is literally perfect for you, yet on that same day she may have had some disappointing news that's left her in an irritable mood. You go to approach and get shot down immediately. Yet on any other day when her mood was normal, something could have happened.

When I was younger I'd especially get frustrated and try to analyse every angle to see where I went wrong. Howver this is completely daft since you'll never understand her motivations so it's a waste of effort. Personally I figure if it's meant to be, it'll be. All you can do is try.



This is true but it's often been said that people are most attracted to girls that are similar to themselves. Now although I'm sure there is a rough sort of objective beauty, it's quite probable that Danny Devito deep down accepts what he is and knows the kind of woman he can go for.. I think it's the case for everyone. Everyone has a rough sense of their own value. I mean I'm not denying I wouldn't be attracted to a 10/10 supermodel but if I were to meet one in person, I probably wouldn't expect to hook up with her and it wouldn't really bother me a bit. Maybe that's self-limiting? I dunno. Anyway I consider myself a legit 10 so this would never happen

Maybe for guys who are less fortunate with their looks/status they'll naturally be more comfortable with a girl that's more in their 'range'.

I feel you.

I lost a client friday,that i mean, was absolutely perfect for what we do. Budget was fine, the type of work he wants we do extremely well, it was just a perfect fit. you want to know why we lost the client? because he looks in our portfolio and saw a porn site and said he wont' do business with programmers who work on porn sites lol. i bull **** you not. that's why we lost the project.

There is nothing you can do about it but keep going on. keep trying. it's a numbers game at the end of the day'

When I was younger I'd especially get frustrated and try to analyse every angle to see where I went wrong. Howver this is completely daft since you'll never understand her motivations so it's a waste of effort. Personally I figure if it's meant to be, it'll be. All you can do is try.

this is some revolutionary **** i figured out actually not that long ago.

for years i worried about having the perfect sales pitch. but what i have found out that it's not as important as finding the perfect situations. Today I'm not so much concerned about my sales pitch as much as I'm focused on finding clients who fit.


when i was spinning plates when i was single i killed horse tracks. it was the perfect storm. a bunch of track girls / women in horse racing that follow horse racing, where the avg male is like 55 years old and creepy then i come along. my game didn't have to be perfect to be a breath of fresh air. a guy who understood their love for racing and didn't' bash them for it, who was also good looking and took care of himself at the same time. my line to my now wife was literally "hey give me your phone number" lol. AND SHE DID.

 

[Lexington]

And this is precisely why Plate Theory and Numbers Game is preached so much here. There are some days when you get blown out for no apparent reason. But there are also days when everything seems to work perfectly.

I find it hopelessly pessimistic that a guy who isn't ugly/super awkward/weird can't do 100 approaches and get laid by an above average looking girl.

Now there's no question Danny Devito is getting laid. He doesn't have to feel bad about himself. But WDW has a point here. He is probaby never going to be "that guy", no matter how hard he tries.

In the end, does it really matter? In the vast majority of cases, a woman is attracted to a man for what he is and not for who he is. If I'm getting what I want/need from a woman, whether or not I'm "that guy" is irrelevant.

 

[zekko]

In the end, does it really matter? In the vast majority of cases, a woman is attracted to a man for what he is and not for who he is. If I'm getting what I want/need from a woman, whether or not I'm "that guy" is irrelevant.

I don't know, there's an awful lot of emphasis on being the alpha around here. Maybe it's just a PUA fantasy for most.

By the way, just out of curiousity I googled Danny DeVito. Apparently he's been with Rhea Perlman (Carla from Cheers) since the early 70s, and married since 1982. Although there are reports of him straying from time to time, and they've had their ins and outs.

 

[potato]

Part of the problem that seems to be missed in the discussion is that picking up chicks, especially past 30 isn’t very effective, even for really attractive guys.

It seems to me that I got as many women in my 40’s as I did in my 20’s and it’s not that I don’t still attract women in their 20’s at age 54. I never come on to women as much as I’ll flirt and be friendly yet not hit on them but rather tease them into coming onto me.

Recently I was with this woman, who is about 40. As we talked she made mention of the fact that guys were always hitting on her. She didn’t like the fact that some guy would approach her when it was obvious to her that he was after sex, blah, blah, blah… Actually it was sex that I was after but I didn’t tell her that. I just talked to her as if we were just friends. Funny though, once she got comfortable with me, the hugs, the body grinds, the kisses all let me know that sex was, after all, what was on her mind.

It gave her, I suppose, the feeling that she was choosing me but I wouldn’t have stayed and talked to her if I hadn’t already chosen her.

I’ve never been into bars and clubs. Actually I don’t much like alcohol. Think is though that most women don’t spend a lot of time in bars and clubs. I meet them everywhere I go doing everything I do. They are everywhere. The trick, if that is what it is, is to make it not so obvious what you’re up to.

 

[Kailex]

BB, your friends need to change their attitudes.
It's self-defeating. If they are "average", then why not welcome them into the world of the not so average?

I'm about to turn 33 and have gotten more tail in my 30's than I got in my whole 20's combined. The venues changed, and it actually became an advantage for me. I live in a great area now of 20's and 30's people so the crowd is the same even if the ages aren't.

But to sit their and analyze their situation is dire and to say they are "creeps"... then it obviously mean that they haven't broadened their venues enough.



About SMV... I think it's a case by case basis and you really can't generalize like that anymore. I went out with a 37 year old woman who looks amazing... like in her 20's, but if I went by SMV theory... she's a decrepit old hag and that's not the case. And she isn't the exception either. I know a lot of women like this and have had no trouble with them, but it's because I've held my SMV at a higher esteem.

Regardless, technology and medicine in general have helped their cause tremendously.

 

[Bread Cutter]

I did not read all the responses in the thread, but IMHO being in your early 30's is not a problem when looking to game girls in there early 20's. Up until 34 there is no barrier. I would say once you hit about 35 it's going to be a little harder to game younger woman.

Say for instance if me and 3 of my 37 year old friends are getting gas at a gas station and 4 23 year old HBO 10's pull up next to us, I think they would be more receptive to us if we were all 27 with all things being equal.

 

[Mike32ct]

I did not read all the responses in the thread, but IMHO being in your early 30's is not a problem when looking to game girls in there early 20's. Up until 34 there is no barrier. I would say once you hit about 35 it's going to be a little harder to game younger woman.

Say for instance if me and 3 of my 37 year old friends are getting gas at a gas station and 4 23 year old HBO 10's pull up next to us, I think they would be more receptive to us if we were all 27 with all things being equal.

I'll agree with this. Nobody is saying the bottom falls out at exactly 30. Many guys, including myself, did BEST at an age of low 30s. But when you start to look 35ish or older, it can be tougher to succeed with younger women. You might have to raise your targets' age a bit.

 

[thefonz]

Xxx

 

[Duffdog]

something funny happened to me yesterday

there is this cutie pie at my gym that works there named McKenzie. she's as sweet as a button, very nice, very foksy, about my height (5'8), skinny, petite, very nice legs, very cute. not "hot" in the sense that oh she's the type of chick you would bang a a club but she's the type of chick you look at and think "that's wife material" right there. and she's not a **** or stuck up.

so we have this rapport going obn. nothing sexual or antyhing but we are cool. we chat each other up, talk about ****, her school (She's a junior she's 20), my work. she gave me some advice to try a new exercise machine for cardio, i tell her tv shows she needs to atch **** like that.

anyway yesterday i go to the gym and she's there just playing around lifting weights. she was off work and she said "i'm waiting on my boyfriend to come pick me up".

I"m like okay, in the back of my mind i'm very interseted to see what his girls BF looks like. this girl is a catch. I'm interested to see what type of super alpha male dude picked this chick up


so this ****ing dweeb comes through the door and i'm like really lol? I'm like bro do you even lift lol? which it's clear he doesn't. I mean he's just a normal looking college white dude lol. not ugly. not hot. nothing to write home about.

you would think by reading this forum that all the cute chicks are being slain by 6'1 210 pound rock hard alpha males with a Cerberus-esque 3 headed 14 inch **** handing from their crotch.


I think in general this forum places WAY, WAY too much emphasis on looks. the girl is a catch but i dated girls hotter than this chick BEFORE i came here as a teenager. so what that she's hot. she's still a girl.


I Mean, i wanted to say you could do better than that, but could she? i mean besides being pretty cute, she's a pretty freaking normal girl.


I think the biggest hting i'm trying to say is that, just get out there and play the game and see what happens. i bet this dude could give 2 ****s about her being the girl that works at the gym or how alpha he is or if him picking her up from the gym is a beta move, etc. just play the game and see what happens. get out, do some ****. meet some people.

I felt the need to respond to this post because it hits home so hard. I used to be on this board a while ago, but stopped because I had too much going on. What backbreaker is describing is what happens with most young girls who just have "some guy" they are seeing. The idea that someone who goes from their 20s to their 30s and does not have any sexual market value for some reason is not right.

I started reading this forum from the middle of my 20s on. I decided to change myself and become one of the "high value males" that people on here always talk about. One thing I had going for me is that I am a bigger guy and I am 6'2. So, I did some roids and went to the gym, became and exec, bought a Lexus and now I'm a way different person. Now, you might be thinking that I was swimming in vag during my 30s...well, I was, but it was not what you might guess.

You see, when you become a high value male, it is assumed by a certain type of woman that they are supposed to cheat on their boyfriends with you. Now which type of boyfriends do you suppose they "chose"? They choose the good natured, normal, average guys (some who would be PUA's) and make it a point to get your phone number in front of their BF's. For a couple years, every single girl I would "go on a date with" had a boyfriend at the time. This meant that they would fully expect that by going anywhere with me that they were going to get laid. Then, most of them would have their BF's pick them up from my house in the morning.

The strange thing was that not a single guy ever, EVER said anything to me about it. It was as if they were just happy that they could sit next to a hot girl and introduce her to their parents or something. But, there were 2 things that contributed to my success that nobody on this site seems to talk about specifically.

1: Where you live: I made the career mistake to accept a bunch of money and move from a city where there was a very, very high female to male ratio (Sacramento) and go to a city that is almost all guys and a few ugly chics (San Jose). I hate it here and notice that girls have no competition and think that because they own a vag, you should notice them and talk to them. I have actually had to say "Stop talking to me" when I have been out before because I couldn't get these ugly chics to stop hitting on me. It was as if they believed that they were entitled to absolutely everything all the time. I call these women "I already have that" women. They believe that whatever they have isn't good enough just because they already have it. Millionaire?--not good enough, the man has to be a billionaire, or a trillionaire if he has made it that far. Just imagine something, anything, and then imagine a woman not being satisfied with it. That is the culture in San Jose due to nothing else other than the fact that there are %20 women and %80 men. Compare that with Sacramento, where there are %70 women...and they have to be attractive to even be let into some bars, I personally know bouncers who are instructed to reject fat chics because it lowers the alcohol sales. I have never seen such a striking difference between 2 cities in my whole life. Also, if you talk to a girl about Sacramento, she hates it with a passion and conversely in San Jose, they just love that place! Wonder why.

2: What you do when you turn 30: This subject is not often mentioned and I can't figure out why. I have noticed that when you are 30 and a high value male, you are supposed to do things that 20 year old men CANNOT DO, so that you don't have to worry about them competing with you. These are things like owning a Skiboat or yacht, outdoor festivals, Burning man, Wine tasting in a limo, Skiing weekends, Private plane, Air bnb weekends in palm springs etc. As an older male, you basically filter out all the competition and just invite these young girls to go with you because there is no chance that they will say "I would rather go to a bar this weekend". When I was single and just entering my 30s, this worked EVERY time. I would also tell the girls that they had to bring "fun" girlfriends -- [fyi, "fun" in California means hot] and they would be excited to come out with me.

What I am trying to say is that I just don't understand why men in their 30s continue with this PUA crap the same way they did in their 20s. And lets not forget where you live matters more than anything else on this forum. If there literally are no cute girls, how will you pick them up? I've been in san jose for 3 years and have not seen a single cute girl from here. Thats fine with me since I kept my other house in Sacramento and visit often, but its so depressing to see dozens of guys performing PUA gimmicks on the same 2 fat girls in a bar in San Jose. Then, those 2 hogs come to talk to me and im like:trouble: "you are not attractive, you have no chance with me, please die"

And lets not talk about what happens when men in their 30s are in New York city... that is just ridiculous! I remember sitting at a bar noticing how so many women were desperate to get a BF that they had their own female version of pua A cute girl sits next to you and grills you with about 20 standard questions while looking at your ring finger and then asks YOU out. Again, this is purely about where I was. I am the same guy in SJ and NYC, but the results are incredibly different.