The Great Irony of the SMV theory

[zekko]

I"m saying that the SMV chart that is infamous in the manophere is bull**** on it's own premise that by me aging, ***** is just going to start falling in my lap more than it would 10 years ago. That's all I am saying.

I agree that aging, in and of itself, does not raise your SMV. However, I do think that if you stay in shape and do your self improvement work throughout your 20s, your SMV will be higher at 30 than at 20. For sure. If you're a slacker and let yourself go to seed, then it will be lower. If you're still a loser at 30, you can still reverse your fortunes, but your chances are decreasing.

Aside from that, just having life experience should teach you some things: Your social calibration should be better, your attitude should be better, you should have learned how not to be taken advantage of, how not to be a chump, etc.

Let's say your buddies had girlfriends back when they were 20 years old. Is it really that their SMV was higher at that age? Or was it that at that age, most of their female peers were single, so there were more opportunities for them?

It's funny how I've read all these threads over the years where guys said that things got easier for them once they turned 30, and now in this thread all of a sudden guys are saying the opposite. Stick around SoSuave long enough and the winds will change.

Problem with SMV theory the mens SMV is rated on him being a beta provider even if he is a chubster.

I firmly believe this: If a guy is a beta, he's a beta. His acquiring more money is not going to suddenly make him one.

 

[backbreaker]

I agree that aging, in and of itself, does not raise your SMV. However, I do think that if you stay in shape and do your self improvement work throughout your 20s, your SMV will be higher at 30 than at 20. For sure. If you're a slacker and let yourself go to seed, then it will be lower. If you're still a loser at 30, you can still reverse your fortunes, but your chances are decreasing.

Aside from that, just having life experience should teach you some things: Your social calibration should be better, your attitude should be better, you should have learned how not to be taken advantage of, how not to be a chump, etc.

Let's say your buddies had girlfriends back when they were 20 years old. Is it really that their SMV was higher at that age? Or was it that at that age, most of their female peers were single, so there were more opportunities for them?

It's funny how I've read all these threads over the years where guys said that things got easier for them once they turned 30, and now in this thread all of a sudden guys are saying the opposite. Stick around SoSuave long enough and the winds will change.


I firmly believe this: If a guy is a beta, he's a beta. His acquiring more money is not going to suddenly make him one.

i'm not saying guys are lying when they say it got easier. if a guy actually did use that time constructivly it probably did get a little easier.

but if a guy just sits around jacking off and playing madden for 5 years thinking that the magical SMV fairy is going to make hot 25 year olds want to screw him when he's 32 he has another thing coming

in genereal i believe that whatever minimal changes you made in your 20's to become a catch are offset by availability of *****. in other words a 22 year old hb7 with no real job and who has AFC tendencies but is in college is going to be around a ****load of hb's than a 32 year old guy who works at a company and goes out to bars at night on the weeken.

 

[zekko]

in genereal i believe that whatever minimal changes you made in your 20's to become a catch are offset by availability of *****. in other words a 22 year old hb7 with no real job and who has AFC tendencies but is in college is going to be around a ****load of hb's than a 32 year old guy who works at a company and goes out to bars at night on the weeken.

Availability is a legitimate question. And maybe I'm wrong here, but I think most young women (say, 22) would prefer to have a fit and successful 30 year old than a 22 year old guy with no real prospects. Not all changes that guys make in thier 20s are going to be minimal. Some are going to be life changing (like yours, not your buddies apparently).

For me, things definitely got easier when I was 31 as opposed to 21. It's not that there was more poon available, but now I was a catch. When I was 21 I was too skinny, broke, and playing in rock bands. I could get laid pretty easily, but it was mostly short term stuff. By the time I was in my 30s, they not only wanted sex but they wanted to stick around too. I know some will scream "beta faggot" at this, but to me, if you're a desireable guy, women should want to stick around. So that part got easier, plus I would say that the percentage of available women that I could attract increased.

 

[backbreaker]

nevermind

 

[Stagger Lee]

I agree that aging, in and of itself, does not raise your SMV. However, I do think that if you stay in shape and do your self improvement work throughout your 20s, your SMV will be higher at 30 than at 20. For sure. If you're a slacker and let yourself go to seed, then it will be lower. If you're still a loser at 30, you can still reverse your fortunes, but your chances are decreasing.

But is that really saying much? Most men hit their overall physical peak at around 25, and right at 30 I still looked mid 20's at the oldest. But a few short years later I didn't. And I still don't believe a guy's SMV at 30 is higher with girls 18-25 than when he was that age. Maybe his SMV is higher relative to females near 30 than relative to girls at 20. Really all that has happened is girls' sky high SMV at around 21, has dropped as she approaches 30 closer to what is for men that age. Females in their 30's still have higher SMV value though.

Aside from that, just having life experience should teach you some things: Your social calibration should be better, your attitude should be better, you should have learned how not to be taken advantage of, how not to be a chump, etc.

True but that is something some guys can learn by their early 20's. That's basically naturals. Still experience helps but it doesn't really make you attractive in itself.

Let's say your buddies had girlfriends back when they were 20 years old. Is it really that their SMV was higher at that age? Or was it that at that age, most of their female peers were single, so there were more opportunities for them?

See right there is the big problem. Most attractive and single women are in their 20's. If men's SMV increased or even stayed the same, there would be a lot of older men dipping into this pool. Very few can pull it off.

It's funny how I've read all these threads over the years where guys said that things got easier for them once they turned 30, and now in this thread all of a sudden guys are saying the opposite. Stick around SoSuave long enough and the winds will change.

You still have a many guys saying things are easier at 30. Even several years ago I wasn't one of them because constantly trying to pick up in the real world was showing me that wasn't the case.. A few years ago all things PUA was accepted as the gospel, ie, looks don't matter, age doesn't matter, it's all personality/game . Now more and more guys are coming to the realization it's not really the case.

For me, things definitely got easier when I was 31 as opposed to 21. It's not that there was more poon available, but now I was a catch. When I was 21 I was too skinny, broke, and playing in rock bands. I could get laid pretty easily, but it was mostly short term stuff. By the time I was in my 30s, they not only wanted sex but they wanted to stick around too. I know some will scream "beta faggot" at this, but to me, if you're a desireable guy, women should want to stick around. So that part got easier, plus I would say that the percentage of available women that I could attract increased.

For one thing, I think the dating market as changed a lot from 20 years ago. You didn't have cell phones/texting, online dating and social networking, internet, PUA etc. These things facilitate hypergamy. I never seen "creepy" or older men/younger women stigmatized until the late 90's. Now we even have the cougar craze, and even hysteria about older men "preying" on younger girls. Also it seems you were more into older women and relationships. People were actually going out on dates and dating still back then.

 

[SteR]

But is that really saying much? Most men hit their overall physical peak at around 25, and right at 30 I still looked mid 20's at the oldest. But a few short years later I didn't. And I still don't believe a guy's SMV at 30 is higher with girls 18-25 than when he was that age. Maybe his SMV is higher relative to females near 30 than relative to girls at 20. Really all that has happened is girls' sky high SMV at around 21, has dropped as she approaches 30 closer to what is for men that age. Females in their 30's still have higher SMV value though.

No offense but this is absolute horse ****. I can safely say that in the last few years my ability to attract girls age 18-21 has rocketed compared to when I was that age. I suppose the difference is that I have taken very good care of myself over the years but there's no way in hell the guy I was at 18-25 could compete with me now. I also remember feeling a lot of frustration at that age seeing the really hot girls in my age group were dating older men.

See right there is the big problem. Most attractive and single women are in their 20's. If men's SMV increased or even stayed the same, there would be a lot of older men dipping into this pool. Very few can pull it off.

I think this just highlights the fact that men must take care of themselves in order to reap the benefits. Considering the majority of men let themselves go as they age, it's no surprise that they're no longer attractive to the younger girls. However, as it's been mentioned multiple times in this thread, if a man takes care of himself then his value will increase.

Although I'm only 29, I've definitely noticed this from my own experiences. However I will be paying close attention to how this pans out over the next 10 years of my life, ha

 

[Stagger Lee]

The average man is a coward.

But are they really? Or maybe it's because they know as 30-something year old men who can't pass for seniors or grad students if they go down to the college hotspot they're not going to get sh!t. So it's a waste of their time.

I don't believe for one minute that if there was a market for older men where all the young college girls are hanging out, that older men wouldn't be there in numbers turning it into a c0ckfarm lol.

 

[Stagger Lee]

No offense but this is absolute horse ****. I can safely say that in the last few years my ability to attract girls age 18-21 has rocketed compared to when I was that age. I suppose the difference is that I have taken very good care of myself over the years but there's no way in hell the guy I was at 18-25 could compete with me now. I also remember feeling a lot of frustration at that age seeing the really hot girls in my age group were dating older men.

Did you even read what I said? You're not even over 29 yet. Most men start to age faster in the 30's. When I was 29 I could still pass for mid and even early 20's, so I'm not surprised if you're doing as well or better than when younger.

But I'll say this, until I see you at college night attracting and picking up 18-21, why should I believe you? Where are you older guys when I'm out there trying to do it? You only exist on the internet. Out of the hundreds of people in the venue, I can count on one hand how many other older guys I see, and none of them are getting anywhere. And don't tell me you are doing it online either.

I think this just highlights the fact that men must take care of themselves in order to reap the benefits. Considering the majority of men let themselves go as they age, it's no surprise that they're no longer attractive to the younger girls. However, as it's been mentioned multiple times in this thread, if a man takes care of himself then his value will increase.

Although I'm only 29, I've definitely noticed this from my own experiences. However I will be paying close attention to how this pans out over the next 10 years of my life, ha

Yes but you can't completely stop aging once into your 30's. It really comes down to you have to plausibly look as good as a 20-something. A lot of it has to do with your skin and hair. Those things can be hard to control. I think if you are willing to date with 5 or so years of age, it could be easier in your 30's. But the pool of women isn't that large or desirable.

 

[SteR]

Did you even read what I said? You're not even over 29 yet. Most men start to age faster in the 30's. When I was 29 I could still pass for mid and even early 20's, so I'm not surprised if you're doing as well or better than when younger.

Yes I understand I'm not 30 yet but I can forsee the effect continuing for a good few years at least - it's not like when I suddenly turn 30 I'll start failing instantaneously.

But I'll say this, until I see you at college night attracting and picking up 18-21, why should I believe you? Where are you older guys when I'm out there trying to do it? You only exist on the internet. Out of the hundreds of people in the venue, I can count on one hand how many other older guys I see, and none of them are getting anywhere. And don't tell me you are doing it online either.

Unfortunately it's true that we can't see the people behind the persona on the net but there's nothing we can do about that. All I can speak about is my personal experiences and the God's honest truth is that as I've got older, I've found I've been getting more attractive women. Granted the number of opportunities have died down since I've left college etc but on the occasions that I have got girls, they've been way hotter.

I wouldn't expect to get girls at a college night. Of course you'll stand out in this environment and not in a good way. You'll definitely have to adjust your game and somehow find girls in venues that are far more neutral ie. work/bars on the weekend/social clubs or whatever.

Yes but you can't completely stop aging once into your 30's. It really comes down to you have to plausibly look as good as a 20-something. A lot of it has to do with your skin and hair. Those things can be hard to control. I think if you are willing to date with 5 or so years of age, I could be easier in your 30's. But the pool of women isn't that large or desirable.

You're right, you can't stop the aging process and nobody said it would be easy. But if you prevail and make it happen then I can totally understand how young girls fall for older guys.

No offense Stagger but it seems as though you're determined to believe that older guys can't get younger girls. Like someone said earlier in this thread, your self-limiting beliefs will shut you down far sooner than any young girl is going to..

 

[zekko]

Quite honestly, if you are ten years older than said high HB's and having a hard time picking them up, you are doing something wrong. Sometimes it's too try hard, sometimes it's over-gaming and sometimes it's just because you may not be socially calibrated for that age-bracket.

For whatever reason, I have always had younger friends and been able to fit in well with their social groups. I've always been accepted as part of the crowd. So that's helped me with being socially calibrated for that age bracket, as you say.

That's not saying at 52 I'm still hanging out with 20 year olds, but I've always tended to have younger friends. And frankly, even when I was younger I always preferred to hang around people who were at least drinking age (21). Too many potential legal hassles if there is underage drinking.

And I still don't believe a guy's SMV at 30 is higher with girls 18-25 than when he was that age. Maybe his SMV is higher relative to females near 30 than relative to girls at 20. Really all that has happened is girls' sky high SMV at around 21, has dropped as she approaches 30 closer to what is for men that age. Females in their 30's still have higher SMV value though

I'm not sure 30 year old guys are all out trying to get 18 year olds. Those girls are still pretty childish. But I don't think it's at all unusual to see them dating 22-25 year old girls. Like I said, drinking age. Probably more common to see them with 26-28 year olds, and those girls are still very fresh IMO.

Like you say, a young girl's SMV peaks around 18-25. The thing is, men's SMV do not peak until later. A guy's SMV at age 20 is pretty low. He has yet to fully mature physically, socially, or financially. Now an 18 year old girl probably just wants to be taken to the movies. But a 25 year old girl is more likely to appreciate what a fully developed man has to offer.

True but that is something some guys can learn by their early 20's. That's basically naturals. Still experience helps but it doesn't really make you attractive in itself.

Well, I didn't have it figured out yet by my early 20s. You can argue I was a late bloomer though. Plus there was no internet back then. I didn't get my sh!t together until later in life than I could have. I had several misfires before I finally found my niche. A true natural may have his best days in his early 20s, I could see that. But for a guy like me who had to work at it, I needed time to build momentum and value.

See right there is the big problem. Most attractive and single women are in their 20's. If men's SMV increased or even stayed the same, there would be a lot of older men dipping into this pool. Very few can pull it off

There are a lot of older men dipping into that pool. I think the main thing is that a lot of guys take themselves out of the game. They are all "Oh, woe is me, I'm 30 years old now, I can't attract a younger woman, I'll only look creepy so I won't even try". Like samspade says, most men are cowards. They're ignoring the evidence of history. It's a long established fact that many women will go for older men.

But I'll say this, until I see you at college night attracting and picking up 18-21, why should I believe you?

Why the heck would an older man choose to pick up younger women at "college night"? An older man does not try to pass himself off as a kid and work himself into a girl's world. A man brings a girl into HIS world. I can't emphasize that enough. This can make a huge impression on a young woman who is usually surrounded by immature douchebags.

 

[Zarky]

A few years ago all things PUA was accepted as the gospel, ie, looks don't matter, age doesn't matter, it's all personality/game .

Nobody has ever said those things. Maybe RSD in the early years.

Please stop building up straw man arguments and then tearing them down. You're simply putting your own weird obsession with men's appearances on display for the internet to see.

Yes, appearance matters. Yes, age matters. Yes, money matters. Yes, occupational status matters. Yes, height matters. Yes, your foot odor matters.

All these things and more matter. All of them. And more.

Nobody is saying they don't. Nobody has said they don't. Nobody will say they don't.

The only person narrowing things down that much are you and the "looks trolls" like yourself. Saying that "only looks" matters. "Only X matters" is an argument that is going to fail. Just like "X never matters" will also fail.

You are overly obsessed with men's looks. I don't get it, I don't geeeeeeeeet itttttt....

 

[Stagger Lee]

Nobody has ever said those things. Maybe RSD in the early years.

Please stop building up straw man arguments and then tearing them down. You're simply putting your own weird obsession with men's appearances on display for the internet to see.

Yes, appearance matters. Yes, age matters. Yes, money matters. Yes, occupational status matters. Yes, height matters. Yes, your foot odor matters.

All these things and more matter. All of them. And more.

Nobody is saying they don't. Nobody has said they don't. Nobody will say they don't.

The only person narrowing things down that much are you and the "looks trolls" like yourself. Saying that "only looks" matters. "Only X matters" is an argument that is going to fail. Just like "X never matters" will also fail.

You are overly obsessed with men's looks. I don't get it, I don't geeeeeeeeet itttttt....

Don't give me that nonsense. Posters in this very thread have said that age doesn't really matter to girls. And don't tell me that PUA and many of the followers don't say that looks and age don't really matter. They absolutely have and still do say this. When anyone says, "Well looks and age matter some but yada yada you can still often bang hot, young girls", then that's saying it doesn't matter.

You are the one creating a strawman. I have never said "only X matters". I've said that attraction is visual and mostly looks based. Appearance is the fundamental determinate of attraction, and happens or does not whether or not you're tall, have a good job, money, you use game tactics xyz etc. Those things are just icing on the cake.

 

[Lexington]

Stagger, just because you aged badly doesn't mean that a lot of guys can't look great in their 30s. I do agree that a lot of guys' appearances deteriorate after their mid 20s but the majority of the American adult population lives a horrible lifestyle. This is why most American adults are overweight and a shockingly high percentage are obese.

The whole reason that guys come to this website is because they don't want to be (presumably) like most guys. Most guys rarely approach. Most guys rarely study the finer details of attracting women. Most guys are content to wait for the right circumstances to present themselves instead of proactively creating them. Most guys don't reach anywhere near their potential.

If you're a 35 year old "average" guy, chances are you've got at least a little bit of a gut. Your bad lifestyle choices are beginning to manifest. You're probably making $35-50k or so. You might live in a respectable apartment/house and drive a decent car. You've probably never seriously attempted to learn about the finer details about Game. You rarely if ever do approaches.

If you're the Mature DJ that we all aspire to be, you spent much of your 20s learning and practicing Game/pickup. You've done thousands of approaches and learned from your experiences. You cultivated your hobbies. You also spent countless hours working out. You ate right. Years of healthy living are clearly visible in your physique and your vitality. You also worked your ass off to establish a great career or to start a business.

But like I said, it's easier to just throw your hands up and say "well, all of this is just bullsh*t.....you're either born with it or not." Making excuses is easier than putting in the work.

 

[zekko]

This whole subject kind of reminds me of what they say about women and "the wall". How they have to lock down a good man by the time they're 30 or poof their looks vanish, their value drops, and they can't find one anymore.

Yes, appearance matters. Yes, age matters. Yes, money matters. Yes, occupational status matters. Yes, height matters. Yes, your foot odor matters.

All these things and more matter. All of them. And more.

Nobody is saying they don't. Nobody has said they don't. Nobody will say they don't.

To be fair to Stagger Lee, pickup gurus and their followers were saying looks don't matter not all that long ago. It's all part of the sales pitch to buy PUA products. I remember a time here when your thread would get locked if you even discussed the topic of looks. The attitude about looks has changed a lot here over the past several years. Now I think that the pendulum has swung so far in the opposite direction that there is currently too much emphasis on looks.

I like your approach of saying everything matters though. I think that is true.

 

[SL2012]

If you're a 35 year old "average" guy, chances are you've got at least a little bit of a gut. Your bad lifestyle choices are beginning to manifest.


Bingo! It amazes me how out of shape and "average" guys my age (36) and 5-8 years younger are. They are my motivation to keep working hard and eating right.

If you want to get younger women in your 30's, looking fit is a MUST!

 

[Zarky]

To be fair to Stagger Lee, pickup gurus and their followers were saying looks don't matter not all that long ago. It's all part of the sales pitch to buy PUA products.

I never got that, even from the most rabid PU material sales guys.

To me, what they were saying was: "Looks don't matter as far as how you should conduct yourself." That is to say, don't let your own looks matter to you.

To say that looks don't matter at all to women is as absurd as saying looks are the only thing that matters to women. It's black-and-white thinking which really stunts people's growth. It's simply intellectually lazy.

Any time I see black and white thinking on forums I point it out and ridicule it. It should be ridiculed. It's an impediment to obtaining knowledge about the world.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Being fit and lean is part of it, not just to get younger girls but any girls. I've always been lean, athletic build and looked younger than my age. The problem I have mainly is hair thinning on top.

Not being fit will get you rejected but being fit is not a guarantee of doing anything. The reason is your face-proportions and symmetry, healthy and youthful skin, hair etc and your facial expressions- is very important in attraction. You can have a half dozen things about you that are good enough or even above average but ONE thing subpar can disqualify you. An average or below face on a good body won't accomplish much.

 

[London NATURAL]

Newbie 1st post here, although I'm a long time lurker on these sort of forums.

Registered primarily to post here. Surely it's about attitude guys. Winners / loosers, alphas /betas?

(attractive, fit 43yr young chap, temporarily knocked my other plates off, whilst focusing on a work project and 30yr old cutie. One'itis maybe )

 

[zekko]

I never got that, even from the most rabid PU material sales guys.

To me, what they were saying was: "Looks don't matter as far as how you should conduct yourself." That is to say, don't let your own looks matter to you.

I saw an old video of Tyler from RSD fairly recently saying something along the lines of "Guys, looks don't matter, they really don't, I know so and so and he's ugly but he knows game and the women adore him".

I remember hearing a lot of stuff years ago about how women were programmed to respond to behavior, not looks. They couldn't help themselves. Facial symmetry didn't help catch the mammoth burgers for the cavewomen, that sort of thing. I think now days the gurus have modified this sort of thinking along the lines of "Looks don't matter, BUT...".

Any time I see black and white thinking on forums I point it out and ridicule it. It should be ridiculed. It's an impediment to obtaining knowledge about the world.

I don't like the black and white thinking either, and I think it should be ridiculed. I've noticed that if you point it out however, people start hating on you. They don't want their vision of the "matrix" to be disturbed.

 

[Stagger Lee]

The thing is I don't see where those that say looks/appearance causes attraction are being black and white. For starters your personality/game is also largely based on appearance.

Black and white thinking to me is saying personality/game is entirely separate from looks/appearance. Personality at best mostly can get people to like you, make friends, keep a relationship together, *or keep you from screwing up what your looks made available to you* but it does not cause sexual attraction.

Besides that, looks believers almost all acknowledge women are attracted to status/value (great wealth, fame, power and influence) and to a good degree independent of a guy's looks. But what they don't believe is that personality/game itself creates value to speak of.