my struggles with the ladies go way beyond mere social awkwardness

[GoodMan32]

To continue and repeat, here’s who winds up socially stunted and womanless.
1. Men with dysfunctional home lives who have an inherently gentle dispositions (the criminals produced in them aren’t womanless).
2. Men in locations in which pickings are slim.
3. Men who are neurodivergent, weird, and mentally troubled.
4. Homely men.

Here’s how both normie men and po0n hounds get women. They spend time with friends and family, go out and about, attend work, do activities involving others, use dating apps, and go for women they meet who show interest in the course of doing so. That’s it! They’re not intense, awkward, and analyzing, learning, and relearning.

I’m sitting on a soccer field at my son’s game. My wife is coaching. I’d bet money 99 percent of the men here didn’t have to learn sh-t to meet their spouses, cold approach, or psychoanalyze women.

What you're saying is true (the unfortunate truth...but the truth nonetheless).

The neurodivergent part is really a game-killer. All of the other negatives on your list don't describe me. I come from a wealthy 2 parent household, I live in a big city with pickings galore, and I have above average looks (7/10). Yet my neurodivergence still holds me back.

As for the rest of your post, you mentioned that successful men go for broads they meet who show interest. That's another area where I'm lacking. I have a hard time telling whether a woman is into me.

I used to blame this on my neurodivergence. But I've since noticed that even neurotypicals appear to struggle with this. There have been times when I've shared the same exact woman-related story with multiple neurotypicals (to get opinions on whether she's into me)...some neurotypicals will say she's into me; some will say she's not.

 

[Manure Spherian]

What you're saying is true (the unfortunate truth...but the truth nonetheless).

The neurodivergent part is really a game-killer. All of the other negatives on your list don't describe me. I come from a wealthy 2 parent household, I live in a big city with pickings galore, and I have above average looks (7/10). Yet my neurodivergence still holds me back.

As for the rest of your post, you mentioned that successful men go for broads they meet who show interest. That's another area where I'm lacking. I have a hard time telling whether a woman is into me.

I used to blame this on my neurodivergence. But I've since noticed that even neurotypicals appear to struggle with this. There have been times when I've shared the same exact woman-related story with multiple neurotypicals (to get opinions on whether she's into me)...some neurotypicals will say she's into me; some will say she's not.

Thanks for the response.

Sometimes a man has to ask for the interest (eg, ask the woman out) and risk rejection. As Dr. Glover says, “Get to no quickly.”

 

[corrector]

What you're saying is true (the unfortunate truth...but the truth nonetheless).

The neurodivergent part is really a game-killer. All of the other negatives on your list don't describe me. I come from a wealthy 2 parent household, I live in a big city with pickings galore, and I have above average looks (7/10). Yet my neurodivergence still holds me back.

That is an interesting conclusion. I don't know if I'm neordivergent or not...it appears I have some tendencies that sound nerodivergent, but I also believe it's reactionary, and in better circumstances I might not be that way.

The other negatives on his list would describe me...I come from a broke 2 parent household (ie but there is equity in the home so it's not totally bad), I live in a big city, but it's Toronto (ie incel capital of the world, lol), I have below average looks (3/10) and am aged as well (ie if I don't keep my hair, I would imagine that would go down to 1/10), so unlike you, I can't say any potential nerodivergence holds me back, but if there, it probably doesn't help if I am like that.

As for the rest of your post, you mentioned that successful men go for broads they meet who show interest. That's another area where I'm lacking. I have a hard time telling whether a woman is into me.

I've made moves with women who I thought were into me, but weren't into me. Now they have made it clear they are not into me to avoid any confusion. They will make you know if they are not into you...but without it turning into a tragic outcome like we think it would be because of feminism. Remember it's just a minority of trouble makers who make it bad for everyone else. Mostly it would just make it a bit more awkward.

 

[GoodMan32]

Thanks for the response.

Sometimes a man has to ask for the interest (eg, ask the woman out) and risk rejection. As Dr. Glover says, “Get to no quickly.”

Which brings us to yet another problem: I find it miserable to cross paths with a woman I got rejected by (I speak from experience. I've been in that position before. Never again. I was so glad when I graduated high school and college, as it meant I would never have to cross paths with a classmate I got rejected by again. No way am I going to risk recreating the "having to cross paths with a rejecter" scenario in the current stage of life I'm in)

I'd seriously rather get manhandled by a gay man than cross paths with a woman I've been rejected by (I say this as a man who's been manhandled by gay guys before). And I'm not even gay.

Besides, making a move on a woman can give me a panic attack anyway. As I've said before on this forum, virtually no woman will accept the advances of a man who's having a panic attack while making his advances (even if she's physically attracted to him)

 

[GoodMan32]

That is an interesting conclusion. I don't know if I'm neordivergent or not...it appears I have some tendencies that sound nerodivergent, but I also believe it's reactionary, and in better circumstances I might not be that way.

The other negatives on his list would describe me...I come from a broke 2 parent household (ie but there is equity in the home so it's not totally bad), I live in a big city, but it's Toronto (ie incel capital of the world, lol), I have below average looks (3/10) and am aged as well (ie if I don't keep my hair, I would imagine that would go down to 1/10), so unlike you, I can't say any potential nerodivergence holds me back, but if there, it probably doesn't help if I am like that.



I've made moves with women who I thought were into me, but weren't into me. Now they have made it clear they are not into me to avoid any confusion. They will make you know if they are not into you...but without it turning into a tragic outcome like we think it would be because of feminism. Remember it's just a minority of trouble makers who make it bad for everyone else. Mostly it would just make it a bit more awkward.

Do you have a hard time with eye contact? If not, you aren't neurodivergent.

If yeah, that's still no guarantee you're on the spectrum, but it's at least a possibility.

I wasn't aware Toronto is notorious for incels (I will have to take your word for it; I've never been to Toronto). I would have expected somewhere like the Silicon Valley or Seattle to be incel central (because of all the techies)

It's not necessarily radical feminism that makes me fear rejection; I just hate the awkwardness.

And no, I don't think that makes me weak. Everyone is different with what they can handle. Even if I'm unable to handle crossing paths with a rejecter, I've moved to places where I knew no one (not even family) twice. A lot of men who can handle rejection couldn't handle moving to a place where he knows no one.

As another example, next weekend I'm getting on a plane and flying to a place I've never been. For no reason other than because I want to. I've done the same thing before (with different places I hadn't been to). A lot of men who can handle rejection wouldn't dare to do that.

 

[Lean Baby Face]

I’m just saying that if women find out you’ve never dated or been in a relationship, and not had much sex by your 30’s, they’re gonna find that very alarming and off putting.

Actually, I think we may soon enter a new era where women will start finding male sexlessness attractive and somehow trustworthy, in the sense that men nowadays are so hungry for sex and date women exclusively for the sexual experience with them and nothing else.

Meanwhile, a man who've lived a relatively sexless life or perhaps still virgin will carry some value in the minds of some women who may deem them as pure, serious, and waiting for the "real thing", in which they will feel like they're the chosen one. It's about changing the culture, more men should try to be like traditional women in the past by making women wanting us.

 

[corrector]

Do you have a hard time with eye contact? If not, you aren't neurodivergent.

Depends. Like mainly with women who have turned me down or like rejected me.

If yeah, that's still no guarantee you're on the spectrum, but it's at least a possibility.

I wasn't aware Toronto is notorious for incels (I will have to take your word for it; I've never been to Toronto). I would have expected somewhere like the Silicon Valley or Seattle to be incel central (because of all the techies)

It is well known in this board, and if you google search it. It has a very strong liberal/feminst vibe like Seattle.

As another example, next weekend I'm getting on a plane and flying to a place I've never been. For no reason other than because I want to. I've done the same thing before (with a different place I hadn't been to). A lot of men who can handle rejection wouldn't dare to do that.

If you have the money, you can afford better quality escapes (ie like getting on a plane and flying to a place, or moving to another places). If you are broke, like me, then it's watching youtube videos or movies / TV-show on a streamer. Whatever works with the resources.

Were are you planning to travel to?

 

[GoodMan32]

Actually, I think we may soon enter a new era where women will start finding male sexlessness attractive and somehow trustworthy, in the sense that men nowadays are so hungry for sex and date women exclusively for the sexual experience with them and nothing else.

Meanwhile, a man who've lived a relatively sexless life or perhaps still virgin will carry some value in the minds of some women who may deem them as pure, serious, and waiting for the "real thing", in which they will feel like they're the chosen one. It's about changing the culture, more men should try to be like traditional women in the past by making women wanting us.

I get what you're saying.

One problem though: For a lot of men, sexlessness happens because he has a hard time finding a willing woman; not because he has some moral compass stopping him from sleeping around. He might very well want a casual sex arrangement every bit as much as Chad.

 

[Manure Spherian]

Which brings us to yet another problem: I find it miserable to cross paths with a woman I got rejected by (I speak from experience. I've been in that position before. Never again. I was so glad when I graduated high school and college, as it meant I would never have to cross paths with a classmate I got rejected by again. No way am I going to risk recreating the "having to cross paths with a rejecter" scenario in the current stage of life I'm in)

I'd seriously rather get manhandled by a gay man than cross paths with a woman I've been rejected by (I say this as a man who's been manhandled by gay guys before). And I'm not even gay.

Besides, making a move on a woman can give me a panic attack anyway. As I've said before on this forum, virtually no woman will accept the advances of a man who's having a panic attack while making his advances (even if she's physically attracted to him)

I think you have to handle this before you deal with women at all. This is not normal, and I say this with respect.

 

[GoodMan32]

Depends. Like mainly with women who have turned me down or like rejected me.



It is well known in this board, and if you google search it. It has a very strong liberal/feminst vibe like Seattle.



If you have the money, you can afford better quality escapes (ie like getting on a plane and flying to a place, or moving to another places). If you are broke, like me, then it's watching youtube videos or movies / TV-show on a streamer. Whatever works with the resources.

Were are you planning to travel to?

Sounds situational (the eye contact struggle with broads you've had bad luck with). Those of us on the spectrum have a hard time when it comes to eye contact with others period (we either avoid it or are too intense; we have a hard time finding a happy medium)

As for Toronto and inceldom, come to think of it, Alek Minassian is from Toronto. And I recall posting on a forum with a late 20s guy in the past from the Toronto area who was still a virgin.

I will DM you about your travel question.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

I'd seriously rather get manhandled by a gay man than cross paths with a woman I've been rejected by (I say this as a man who's been manhandled by gay guys before). And I'm not even gay.

Why do you bring this up? You make it sound like you'd have to suffer one way or another. Either face a woman who rejected you in the past (why would she care about you, she probably doesn't even remember) or imagine yourself with forced intimacy with gay men? How about forgetting about the women who rejected you, just like they forget who they rejected?

 

[GoodMan32]

I think you have to handle this before you deal with women at all. This is not normal, and I say this with respect.

I went to a therapist this summer in an attempt to address many issues (one of which being my fear of rejection).

He wasn't of much help (on the rejection part at least)

I'm pretty sure my intense fear of rejection is rooted in my past. I was viewed as the freaky creep of the school in middle school/high school (as a result, any classmate I expressed interest in was repulsed by me)

Come college, my college was too big for me to develop a schoolwide reputation of being a freaky creep. But I at least ended up developing a reputation of being the department freak (in my major department). It's no surprise that other than tech methods, the only date I got in college came from a classmate in an elective (outside my department). And all of the sex I got in college came from tech methods.

If my past rejections were a matter of "no, you simply aren't my type," I might not be as rejection-averse. But thanks to my past, if I were to get rejected at my current age, every time I crossed paths with the woman I'd be reminded I'm the same freaky creep at 33 that I was at 15 and 21.

I'd also feel like an autistic idiot for misinterpreting a broad's interest level once again.

 

[GoodMan32]

Why do you bring this up? You make it sound like you'd have to suffer one way or another. Either face a woman who rejected you in the past (why would she care about you, she probably doesn't even remember) or imagine yourself with forced intimacy with gay men? How about forgetting about the women who rejected you, just like they forget who they rejected?

The manhandling from gay guys has always been gentle arm-massaging (which lasts less than a minute). Really not an inconvenience/suffering at all (if anything, it's a compliment that he finds me attractive).

I've posted about my next door neighbor (who I'd like to get with) on here before. Even if broads forget about some of the men they reject, rejecting the man who lives next door to her is something she's not going to forget. Which is why I haven't made a move (or at least one of the reasons why)

As for why I care, I illustrated on my last post that I'd be reminded of what a freaky creep I am every time I were to cross paths with her post-rejection (and I'd feel like an autistic idiot for misinterpreting her interest level)

 

[corrector]

I went to a therapist this summer in an attempt to address many issues (one of which being my fear of rejection).

He wasn't of much help (on the rejection part at least)

I'm pretty sure my intense fear of rejection is rooted in my past. I was viewed as the freaky creep of the school in middle school/high school (as a result, any classmate I expressed interest in was repulsed by me)

Come college, my college was too big for me to develop a schoolwide reputation of being a freaky creep. But I at least ended up developing a reputation of being the department freak (in my major department). It's no surprise that other than tech methods, the only date I got in college came from a classmate in an elective (outside my department). And all of the sex I got in college came from tech methods.

If my past rejections were a matter of "no, you simply aren't my type," I might not be as rejection-averse. But thanks to my past, if I were to get rejected at my current age, every time I crossed paths with the woman I'd be reminded I'm the same freaky creep at 33 that I was at 15 and 21.

I'd also feel like an autistic idiot for misinterpreting a broad's interest level once again.

Why did people view you as a freaky creep?

 

[Manure Spherian]

If my past rejections were a matter of "no, you simply aren't my type," I might not be as rejection-averse. But thanks to my past, if I were to get rejected at my current age, every time I crossed paths with the woman I'd be reminded I'm the same freaky creep at 33 that I was at 15 and 21.

This might be alleviated if you find a suitable life partner and hopefully living happily ever after. I am married but believe there should be a marriage strike at the current time. So I do not recommend it, not until laws change.

 

[GoodMan32]

Why did people view you as a freaky creep?

A number of reasons.

Unfamiliarity with social norms.

Hard time reading social cues (As an example, sometimes when a classmate would tell me to stop doing a certain behavior, that'd only make me do it even more. I would think we were having good fun/joking around. I wasn't aware they genuinely wanted me to stop)

As another example of a hard time reading social cues, one time the cool kids dared me to gather up all the trash from their table (in the cafeteria) and dump it on the nerd table. I obliged. I thought the cool kids were laughing with me. In retrospect, they were laughing at me (and thinking to themselves "Look what we convinced the socially inept kid to do. Let's laugh at him")

Then there was the fact my emotional age was 5-6 years behind. In other words, when I was 16, I was 10 on the inside. That's a surefire way to get viewed as a freak at a high school.

 

[SW15]

So in other words, a socially awkward techie needs to be Mark Zuckerberg to give a woman sexual feelings (a techie who makes 100-150k, even though that's above average, still isn't making enough to drop her panties)

Your interpretation of what I said is generally correct. If a tech worker is socially awkward, the he would need a lot of money to overcome that awkwardness. He would need to be near the top of his field. Look at Bill Gates during his days at Microsoft. He used his money and CEO status within Microsoft to get a mediocre looking careerist/feminist. That's the best he could do and that's what he did in a less competitive 1980s sexual marketplace.

A male working in a STEM field making $100,000 - $150,000 per year simply doesn't offer enough to offset the "feels" he's going to give to a higher tier, physically attractive woman by being socially awkward. The majority of guys in STEM occupations are socially awkward. Some might be able to mate if they drop their standards enough.

$100,000 - $150,000 per year isn't going to mean much to a woman with a bachelor's degree or higher who has enough skills to earn a living for herself. His presence at that salary level isn't going to significantly alter the course of her life. She's seeking a certain emotional response that a typical middle of the bell curve in looks but socially awkward STEM worker isn't going to offer her. With her likely level of abundance, she's not going to prioritize the type of guy you describe.

In this sexual marketplace, there are men in non-technical field such as sales, marketing, accounting, finance, or blue collar tradesmen who make $100,000 - $150,000 and many of them also struggle to attract and retain women.

If he’s neurotypical and has friends he can have a woman.

Not necessarily. There are a lot of men out there who are neurotypical and have friends and still struggle in the marketplace.

I find it miserable to cross paths with a woman I got rejected by (I speak from experience. I've been in that position before. Never again.

That's not pleasant for a lot of men. Most men are not excited to cross paths with someone who rejected their in-person approach. A good portion of men can be cordial in that type of interaction but they won't enjoy it. I also don't think most men are excited to see a woman who they had a "one date, no sex, no second date" type interaction with either.

I am married but believe there should be a marriage strike at the current time. So I do not recommend it, not until laws change.

Your thinking is similar to Rollo Tomassi's thinking. Rollo Tomassi has had a marriage last 25+ years but he doesn't think most men in the USA or other Western cultures are in a good position to follow his path in a marriage.

 

[Manure Spherian]

Not necessarily. There are a lot of men out there who are neurotypical and have friends and still struggle in the marketplace.

I never speak of guarantees. I think that’s implied.

 

[SW15]

here’s who winds up socially stunted and womanless.
1. Men with dysfunctional home lives who have an inherently gentle dispositions (the criminals produced in them aren’t womanless).
2. Men in locations in which pickings are slim.
3. Men who are neurodivergent, weird, and mentally troubled.
4. Homely men.

I agree with all 4 but want to focus on Groups 1 & 2.

Having a criminal record can help in attracting women. It matters how the criminal looks and what his criminal conviction was. Men with more violent crimes are going to be more attractive. I think the men with convictions for crimes such as assault/theft/burglary who look like they could protect a woman (looks of physical dominance and many tattoos) are the most likely to benefit sexually from their criminal records. A man who looks like a boring beta male who has a conviction for accounting/financial fraud isn't as likely to benefit sexually.

Dysfunctional homes can create guys who are bad boy poon slayers or guys somewhat invisible to women.

Location matters too. In smaller towns, there's often too little choice. Plenty of men end up moving from smaller towns to bigger cities because they can't find a mate in their smaller towns. These are typically men that didn't have social circle options and had to rely on a combination of in-person approaching and tech methods. Relying on in-person approaching, swipe apps, and social media DMs in a less populated area is going to be difficult based on lack of choice.

I have met some men over the years that would be incel/borderline incel if not for their social circle connections getting them well positioned for some sort of LTR. Social circles matters, even if they are now accounting for fewer relationships than at some points in the past.

 

[Manure Spherian]

Your thinking is similar to Rollo Tomassi's thinking. Rollo Tomassi has had a marriage last 25+ years but he doesn't think most men in the USA or other Western cultures are in a good position to follow his path in a marriage.

The divorce industry is one or the most sinister things on earth!

However, marriage isn’t an “outdates technology,” though James Sexton has inspired the middle-age red-pill crowd to compulsively parrot that line. But that’s a topic for another thread I don’t think is worth having on here.