Integrity

[hithard]

That is a man without integrity.

I don't see the grayness.

That wasnt the example of grey areas between 2 people.

That was the perception of someone having integrity in one area not another.And how knowing one and not the other can make a difference.

 

[ketostix]

I think we are moving past the integrity into righteousness. Integrity can mean a million different things to different people. Like I said before someone has probably labeled you as having low integrity already in your life. Yes I know it’s between you and you. So how many of you have lied and cheated yourself??

Let’s see any of these commitments to yourself ring a bell
I'll never drink again.
I'm going to lose weight.
Spend more time with the kids.
Spam generic NYE commitment.

Almost everyone has promised themselves, or made a commitment for themselves then broken it. So are you now without integrity??
Integrity is self imposed guidelines that mark your comfort zone. It keeps you in check to a standard you are happy with.

Ok something else; there are people I would lend money to without blinking. Because they have proven themselves in this area. But often lack severely in another area that calls into question there integrity. Theres a million different examples of this. You will be hard pressed finding someone that covers every single base.

It's not the be all and end all. I could call into question almost everyone that has posted here integrity. It’s black and white because there your rigid rules. But that doesn’t mean everyone shares the same values. It is subjective given such a differing of opinion. Thus creating the grey areas between 2 people. You guys are taking too much of a movie approach to integrity.In fact probably going a bit to far with the live your life by these bible like notions.

Good luck with ONS as well all you high and mighty people

You are making way too much sense hithard. Don't you know if you want an applause you have to say sound good, feel good things like, "I'm a real man of integrity!", "You're either a man of integrity or you're not!", "Always follow your iron clad rules in a binary fasion and no matter what that's always the best for everyone everytime!" The way I see it is everything is black and white when you have perfect information, sometimes you do but there are often times when you don't. In the "gray area" can lie a lot of that information. It mostly comes down to having a "good" intent and doing the best you know. No one's infalliable.

 

[hithard]

On a side note I have done my best through out my life to follow latinomans advice. I have been hospitalized twice from the notion of defend those weaker then yourself (e.g. taking on 7 guys that were attacking another man and his girlfriend).Past up a million ons and so on. I have always lacked imo in other areas of integrity at one time or another. But my integrity guidelines are in the so high its in the stupid area. However I would never judge anyone else by these lines because that’s my own private mental illness I have to deal with

PS Working on changing the way I think.Somewhere I was brainwashed with these stupid rules

 

[iqqi]

That wasnt the example of grey areas between 2 people.

That was the perception of someone having integrity in one area not another.And how knowing one and not the other can make a difference.

Someone with integrity would not be boning his friend (who he would not steal from)'s wife/gf.

No gray area.

That man does not have integrity.

That was an easy example. Just because you do one right thing, does not a man of integrity you make. That is kind of like saying because you volunteer at a homeless shelter for a school project, you are a saint. Nope.

Integrity is more collective.

 

[ketostix]

But my integrity guidelines are in the so high its in the stupid area. However I would never judge anyone else by these lines because that’s my own private mental illness I have to deal with

PS Working on changing the way I think.Somewhere I was brainwashed with these stupid rules

I can relate to where you are coming from. That's why I said before that 9/10 it's not the guys with the most integrity making the hardline stance on integrity.

 

[ketostix]

Someone with integrity would not be boning his friend (who he would not steal from)'s wife/gf.

No gray area.

That man does not have integrity.

That was an easy example. Just because you do one right thing, does not a man of integrity you make. That is kind of like saying because you volunteer at a homeless shelter for a school project, you are a saint. Nope.

Integrity is more collective.

But the point is people vary in their levels of integrity and no one has 100% integrity. That would be too rigid if they did and imperfect for every situation everytime anyway. Rollo gave several examples where one could go against something they believed, i.e., lack integrity, for a greater good.

 

[hithard]

Someone with integrity would not be boning his friend (who he would not steal from)'s wife/gf.

No gray area.

That man does not have integrity.



Integrity is more collective.

THAT WAS NOT AN EXAMPLE OF A GRAY AREA BETWEEN TWO PEOPLE

It was an example of people having perceived integrity from one angle. But if you knew the full story then it would be in question.

A gray area between two people may be different ideas on how to handle the same situation. One may view the others way of handling it as un-honorable or low.

In the end does it really matter? At any given time your probably being viewed by any given % as doing something low or any given as doing something honorable.

That was an easy example. Just because you do one right thing, does not a man of integrity you make. That is kind of like saying because you volunteer at a homeless shelter for a school project, you are a saint. Nope.

By your logic one wrong thing means zero integrity?
And if you were one of those homeless you would probably put him to a high standard. So by whose line of questioning do you suddenly become less of a man of integrity?? This board? Someone that passes judgment on others while not following their own rules of integrity? No himself, and if he is happy with what he is ,then who is the judge?

The one thing you can do is live as best you can to your own values, ideas, hopes and aspirations. But not this crap, which in my opinion looks more damaging to ones core value in this thread then anything else.

Live your life as best you can and learn as much as you can.
Every one of my mistakes or lapses of judgment have only made me learn more. I wouldn’t trade it I'm not fallible and I can guarantee there’s a whole bunch to come.

Integrity does not give you any superpowers, makes you pull women of high or low character any better, or even give you a halo. The major achievers on this earth split a few heads and caused a few tears on the way.

You show me the man that has lived integrity in every area of his life, to the full extent without question and I will show you God.

 

[penkitten]

You show me the man that has lived integrity in every area of his life, to the full extent without question and I will show you God.

or the son of god....

 

[STR8UP]

Foremost, I think anybody who WOULD take a stance against INTEGRITY in any manner is clearly doing it for either of two reasons:

AGAINST integrity? Who said that? This is all about the fact thatthings are not as cut and dry as you would lead us to believe.

And truth be told MR. ROLLO, if MEN these days had INTEGRITY, SoSuave would not be SWAMPED with AFCism. Thus it is the lack of integrity which has created this forum.

Lack if integrity has nothing to do with AFCism, it's lack of KNOWING BETTER.

 

[STR8UP]

In rebuttal, we have had the usual meandering, liberal ,non-binary mush and little else.

Wanna talk about meandering? It would seem to me that the integrity activists have a problem getting things straight when they talk about society setting standards one minute and the individual the next.

Further, if any of you DO happen to ever find yourselves in extreme circumstances which resemble the extraordinary examples which Rollo invented ,then refer to Guru's post above for counseling and guidance.

Hmmm....if you have to "refer to something for guidance" that to me would imply that certain things might require a JUDGMENT CALL, which is exactly what Keto, Rollo, and I have been saying all along.

Thanks for helping clarify our point.

 

[Señor Fingers]

Lack if integrity has nothing to do with AFCism, it's lack of KNOWING BETTER.

I agree that it has nothing to do with AFCism, but lack of knowing better? I think that integrity falls apart precisely when you do something you know you really shouldn´t be doing. If you don´t know any better then isn´t that just ignorance?

 

[STR8UP]

Agree for a specific situation, but a person can have more integrity or less integrity than another.

Whoever it was way back that pointed out that the concept of integrity is actually an all or nothing deal, i agree with that. So it would be more accurate to say that a person has integrity or lacks it in a given situation.

I now see that integrity is a snapshot of a given situation, not a word that can be accurately used to label a given person, because if we did that we would be back to making a judgment call as to how many times a person can "slip up" (which we all do) and still be considered to have "integrity".

Make sense?

Integrity IS an all or nothing deal, but there is not a person on this earth who lives their entire life without f'ing up when it comes to this.

I don't remember seeing the other camp addressing this point satisfactorily. So tell me Latinoman, jophil, and guru......

Would it be accurate to say that if we were to judge a person as being one who HAS integrity, would we not have to account for the fact that he/she is NOT perfect and has in the past LACKED integrity in a specific situation, thus opening up this whole issue to a judgment call, thus PROVING that it isn't a black and white issue?

Accountability also diminshes integrity. Because if your accounting for something then you either knowingly broke your integrity or your moral code differs from whoever you are accounting to.

Don't you just love it when they throw out a word that destroys their entire argument?

If you are being held accountable that would imply that you had broken a law or a principal or something.

 

[STR8UP]

I agree that it has nothing to do with AFCism, but lack of knowing better? I think that integrity falls apart precisely when you do something you know you really shouldn´t be doing. If you don´t know any better then isn´t that just ignorance?

Yes, to an extent AFCism is ignorance.

 

[guru1000]

The Importance of Your Word

The Mature Man has recently come in to the debate of INTEGRITY and its application.

Integrity is defined as steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. Being this code is defined individually leaves us with the question ,

What is a Healthy and Productive code to live by?

"Being true to oneself"

One of the characteristics among many of this code is "Keeping Your Word".

In this ERA of low character men, this is a rarity. Many books such as "48 LAWS OF POWER" by Robert Greene try to teach that MANIPULATION brings POWER, while FULL DISCLOSING your motive will always leave with you the shorter end of the stick. The book goes on to describe many historical scenarios where this applies.

Being that very few people in these times describe the advantage of BEING TRUE TO ONESELF, it is quite easy to fall into the mindset of manipulation to excel.

We are all a product of our environment. This does not EXCUSE our behavior but it definitely explains it.

CHANGE is a powerful yet difficult element. It asks of us to cease enduring COZY habits.

We as human beings are motivated by the Pain vs Pleasure dynamic. We are more likely to follow the routine that causes us least pain and most pleasure.

Change is difficult because it puts us in the position of feeling more pain (breaking a comfortable habit) and less pleasure (not yet associated with the new behavior).

Let us use the example of NOT SMOKING. For a smoker, picking up a cigarette creates immediate pleasure (satisfying his nicotine urge) and no pain (immediate). So when a smoker has an urge, he can satisfy this impulse with another cigarette thus playing into the Pain / Pleasure dynamic.

Now let us look deeper into how this SMOKER tries to quit. One day the smoker has come to the conclusion that it is a bad habit and could lead to long term damage. So he puts in place the PAIN dynamic and is mentally prepared to quit. This smoker than continues to act on his decision. As the days/weeks go by the PAIN of nicotine withdrawal may increase. It is when this PAIN of withdrawal exceeds the PAIN of his initial "Reasons to Quit", that the smoker relapses.

The individual who positions "Keeping His Word" into his HIERARCHY CODE will QUIT permanently if his code has value.

How could INTEGRITY have value?

When one has no integrity and than ADOPTS a code that he desires to adhere to, his CODE has little VALUE. He has not yet put his code to the test. So to violate it would not be difficult. However, the more he ADHERES to it, the more value his code merits. In other words, the more value a code accumulates, the more PAIN will be associated with it's violation.

MAN A , a smoker recently adopts a code. One of his RULES is being true to himself. He then makes a decision to quit smoking. After a couple weeks, as his nicotine withdrawal increases so does the pain. He then asks himself,

Does the PAIN of SMOKING exceed the PAIN of violating my CODE. Because his code was recently adopted, it has little value. He is more likely to RELAPSE.

Let's take MAN B, who has lived by his code for five years and like MAN A chooses to quit smoking. The difference is MAN B has ADHERED to his code for the past five years. As many times as NATURE has tested, his Conviction won giving his CODE significant value.

The day comes when the PAIN of quitting becomes excessive. Man B asks himself,

Does the PAIN of SMOKING exceed the PAIN of breaking my CODE. NOOOOO, he screams.

If your code has value, than "Keeping Your Word" can be life changing. Making a decision, applying it and continuing to apply it is the difference that makes the difference.

Whether it is a decision to work 18 hour days, keeping your carbohydrate intake to less than 100 grams a day, quitting a habit or not letting desire break your character; it is the value of your code that is of most importance.

If you have not yet adopted a CODE, I CHALLENGE you today to make one and stick to it for one(1) month.
If your CONVICTION prevails for the month, I applaud you. Now CONTINUE and build VALUE to this CODE.

You now realize the Power of Your Word.

 

[guru1000]

Lack if integrity has nothing to do with AFCism, it's lack of KNOWING BETTER.

Ahh Mr. Str8up. Alas I thought you were a deep thinker.

Could you think of any reasons how lack of integrity can contribute to an AFC mindset?

 

[Colossus]

From my Cardinal Rules....

9. Beware the power of the word. Your words have the power to edify, create, and preserve, or the power to utterly destroy. The things that come out of your mouth (or keyboard) have greater repercussions than you might think. A harsh word uttered in anger can erode a relationship like a river through sand. Once something toxic has been said, it is impossible to erase, unless that person chooses to forgive you.

Keeping your word is a tough discipline. There are a lot of things we say with ambivalence: "yeah, I'll come to the party", "Ill look into it for you", "Ill call you when something comes up", etc. These are things I think we all say as formality; i.e. we say them to avoid giving a straightforward NO or to just appease the situation and keep things cordial.

There are some areas, however, where I think men should always keep their word. Appointments, dates, personal commitments that involve other's well being, and promises made to loved ones. Especially in business and familial relationships. You HAVE to be able to count on your family, period. In today's world of moral relativism and ethical ambiguity, it is VERY easy to write off broken promises and fickle actions as a product of the "situation". The premise of moral relativism is basically to avoid personal accountability and guilt over a broken word. Everyone wants a back door when sh!t gets uncomfortable or sacrifice is required. This type of thinking is like an infection--it only spreads and divides, never the reverse unless you set boundaries and principles for yourself.

 

[Colossus]

That was in relation to sleeping with a married woman.

Not accepting that his actions were wrong under our societal code of ethics is a clear indication you lack accountability. Lack of accountability is a serious lack of character. Here is why…when you integrity is put into test and you fail…the only thing that can help you regroup is ACCOUNTABILITY.

On the issue of “cannot be taken from another person”. Listen, you claim to be a “deep thinker”. So…let’s think a little “deeper”. By cheating with a married woman you are contributing toward taking from another man. You are contributing toward lost of his financial stability as in a divorce MOST men loses 50% of their brute salary (meaning that before taxes, he loses about 50% to his wife for a total of 60-70% after taxes). You are also contributing toward that man losing 100% access to his children. And consequently, you are contributing toward a vicious circle of children raised by single mothers.

If you feel that is NOT wrong…then you have a serious character flaw. It is called “lack of accountability”.

If you admit that is wrong under our societal code of ethics, but your personal morals are such that you can sleep at night after the deed…then there is nothing I can say. You are accountable…you are not making excuses…and I am not in a position to preach personal morals to anyone.

Justifying sleeping with a married woman is a perfect example of moral relativism. The pain and guilt of this action are far too great to ignore, so rationalization and side-stepping the issue with "situational" excuses are carried out automatically to alleviate the burden of what you know is not right.

I have a professor (unfortunately my academic advisor) who admittedly has regular affairs with married women. His justifications are the same: "Im not making her do anything, it's her choice. Im just taking what's on the table." It is true that both parties make the choice to do it, but that does not waive the accountability of the unmarried person.

I am no saint. Im not saying my sh!t doesnt stink or that I have never acted outside of integrity. BUT--I do have boundaries. Im not going to sit here and justify my own f-ed up behavior in the name of relativism.

 

[ThunderMaverick]

Who made the analogy of a person driving a guy to a bank so he can rob it? I mean YOU aren't robbing the bank, but you're an accessory. You KNEW!

I think that sums up accountability. Great example, whoever that was. I'm too lazy to go back and look. lawlz.

 

[STR8UP]

Ahh Mr. Str8up. Alas I thought you were a deep thinker.

Could you think of any reasons how lack of integrity can contribute to an AFC mindset?

It might be a symptom of it but it isn't the cause.

 

[guru1000]

It might be a symptom of it but it isn't the cause.

Here is a bullet, shall I shoot another 10?