Integrity

[Latinoman]

By the way...you two remind me of Spike and Chester. Spike = STR8UP and Chester = Ketosis.

I mean, to this day I have not seen you disagree with him. Everything he says is justified by you.

 

[ketostix]

I am not talking about MY actions. This is not about me.

In fact, I don't have to justify anything. I am always ACCOUNTABLE for everything I do.

What do we have here but an excuse. You make arguments then you want to claim you don't have to defend them or be accountable. Interesting.

 

[ketostix]

By the way...you two remind me of Spike and Chester. Spike = STR8UP and Chester = Ketosis.

I mean, to this day I have not seen you disagree with him. Everything he says is justified by you.

Oh snap that was pretty funny. I have disagreed with STR8, but the guy just makes a lot of sense to me in most of his posts. I agree and disagree with various people. Maybe one reason I often say I agree with him is you have so many people unfairly attacking him. I'm just supporting what he says that I agree with.

 

[ketostix]

The only problem that I have with your post is you change the definition of words and try to impose it on everyone else. I have integrity and I'm viewed as a man with integrity by those around me. However I don't fall into your definition of integrity.

From Meriam Webster (probably the most respected dictionary)

Integrity: firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values

I strictly adhere to my code of moral and artistic values.

Right L-M seems to be saying if you don't follow society's ethics you are lacking integrity and ethics. For example, STR8's code is he won't cheat in a relationship. And he has integrity if he doesn't break his code.

 

[Latinoman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacAvoy
The only problem that I have with your post is you change the definition of words and try to impose it on everyone else. I have integrity and I'm viewed as a man with integrity by those around me. However I don't fall into your definition of integrity.

From Meriam Webster (probably the most respected dictionary)

Integrity: firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values

I strictly adhere to my code of moral and artistic values

Right L-M seems to be saying if you don't follow society's ethics you are lacking integrity and ethics. For example, STR8's code is he won't cheat in a relationship. And he has integrity if he doesn't break his code.

My very first paragraph reads:

"Integrity

Integrity is one of the most important qualities that define a man’s character. Lack of integrity is in fact a serious character flaw. When it comes to integrity there are not gray areas, there are not “if” or “but”. There are not measuring scales and there are not descriptors such as “high”, “low”, “higher” or “lower”. Integrity is defined as a steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. In essence, you either have integrity or you don’t. "

No offense...but I CLEARLY define integrity (see bold).

 

[Latinoman]

Right L-M seems to be saying if you don't follow society's ethics you are lacking integrity and ethics.

No...you are LYING and completely changing what I wrote.

Act like an "intelligent" man and RE-read what Latinoman wrote (see key words in red):




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Integrity
Integrity is one of the most important qualities that define a man’s character. Lack of integrity is in fact a serious character flaw. When it comes to integrity there are not gray areas, there are not “if” or “but”. There are not measuring scales and there are not descriptors such as “high”, “low”, “higher” or “lower”. Integrity is defined as a steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. In essence, you either have integrity or you don’t.


Many people will find excuses or gray areas in order to justify behavior that otherwise will challenge his values and integrity. Listen, gray areas are created by society and individuals as a way (right or wrong) to justify certain actions. That is why integrity is either white or black. You cannot justify lack of integrity.

Are you a man of integrity?
If you do to another person what you don't want another person doing to you then you lack integrity.

How can you really test if a person have or lacks integrity? The best way to measure this is by putting you in a shoddy situation in which NO one will ever find out. For instance, if you could steal $100K from your boss knowing that NO one will find out. Or if you could cheat on your wife knowing that NO one will find out. If you could take 5 days off from work without claiming vacation time knowing NO one will ever find out.

If you answer "yes" to any of the examples above then you lack integrity. There is a difference about not bending your principals out of a fear of getting caught and not bending your principals out of integrity.

In conclusion
Finding "gray areas" that allow you to bend your principals so you can sleep peacefully at night does not make you a man of integrity. No one is perfect. Many times we will be faced situations that will test our character. If you do something that tests the principles that define integrity, the best thing you can do is take accountability for your actions and make sure you accept and learn from that mistake. Justifying lack of integrity in fact diminishes accountability. And we all know that accountability is another important quality that defines a man’s character.

Note: I can see people coming with extreme situations in order to debate my point. Let me put that argument to rest. Yes, there might be extreme situations in which a man might have to betray his principles. A man might be forced by kidnappers to steal in order to save the life of his child. In an extreme situation of war and great depression, a man might have to steal bread in order to feed his family. And do you know what? Even during those extremes and moments of despair, a man with integrity will intuitively exercise every single option that does not betray his principles in order to safeguard his life and the life of his love ones. Why will this be an extreme? Because if you take away this man's life or the life of his loves ones...well...this is self-explanatory.For example, STR8's code is he won't cheat in a relationship. And he has integrity if he doesn't break his code.

 

[Latinoman]

If you read everything I wrote in RED...you will see that I did NOT say anything about "society" defining our integrity. In fact, I made it VERY clear that has to do with INDIVIDUAL principals...INDIVIDUAL behavior.


Trying to MISSTATE what I wrote in order to make your point is low and classless. My original post is very clear. I know you have class and you are a quality poster. Let's debate what I WROTE not what you are assuming I meant with what I wrote.


EDIT to soften the tone.

 

[Latinoman]

For example, STR8's code is he won't cheat in a relationship. And he has integrity if he doesn't break his code.

But he contributes into a married woman to cheat on her husband. He is willing to betray HIS principles in order to get laid. He reminds me of the man that says it is against his principle to steal...but for the same token does not have any problem leaving the key of the store with the thief so he can come in and do his deed.

I will go on record under the risk of being accused of throwing personal attacks, and say that based on that alone STR8UP lacks integrity (by the way, that does not make him a bad person). And by making excuses and bringing the "gray areas", he also lacks accountabilty. Two very important ingredients in a man's character.

 

[MacAvoy]

I apologize Latinoman, I didn't see where you gave the definition of integrity.

 

[ketostix]

Are you a man of integrity?
If you do to another person what you don't want another person doing to you then you lack integrity.

No you would lack a moral compass. I can still have my integrity and say, for example, if my wife throws herself at a single man, then I don't necessarily blame the man and he shouldn't blame me if I was single and his wife came on to me.

 

[Latinoman]

I apologize Latinoman, I didn't see where you gave the definition of integrity.

That's cool. I have nothing against you and nothing against Ketosis. In fact, I tend to agree a LOT more with both of you than I actually disagree with. In fact, I know that in long threads (3+ pages) some things get lost or misunderstood. I simply don't like to be misquoted or my statements to be misrepresented. You did neither. I know Keto misquoted, but he did that based on some assumptions and honestly I did not like it because it wastes my time trying to point out that I did not say nor imply those things.

I am not preaching to anyone. This is not the purpose of this thread. I created the thread because people were asking me to create it. So, I was very careful when I wrote it. I follow my own code of morals too. I don't allow society to dictate anything for me. And I have principles. I don't compromise MY principles.


I was simply saying that INTEGRITY is an important quality in a man's character. That's all I said.

 

[Latinoman]

No you would lack a moral compass. I can still have my integrity and say, for example, if my wife throws herself at a single man, then I don't necessarily blame the man and he shouldn't blame me if I was single and his wife came on to me.

Iteresting argument. See???? This is the kind of debate I wanted to have with you. The kind of debate I expected from you. Because it actually makes me think on how to approach with a response.

Good argument, Keto.

 

[Latinoman]

Originally Posted by ketostix
No you would lack a moral compass. I can still have my integrity and say, for example, if my wife throws herself at a single man, then I don't necessarily blame the man and he shouldn't blame me if I was single and his wife came on to me. .

Note: By the way, this particular moral compass tend to work better with men that has not problem cheating on their partners. Very rarely (if at all) with men that cheating on their partners goes against their principles.

 

[mrRuckus]

If you do to another person what you don't want another person doing to you then you lack integrity.

If i were fat i would want to be publicly ridiculed and humiliated to encourage me to change my ways.

Is it acceptable for me to do this to fat people since I follow the golden rule of doing to others what I would want done to me?

 

[Latinoman]

If i were fat i would want to be publicly ridiculed and humiliated to encourage me to change my ways.

You are NOT obese. Are you? You don't know what it is to be obese and being publicly ridiculed and humiliated.

 

[ketostix]

I will go on record under the risk of being accused of throwing personal attacks, and say that based on that alone STR8UP lacks integrity (by the way, that does not make him a bad person). And by making excuses and bringing the "gray areas", he also lacks accountabilty. Two very important ingredients in a man's character.

So he lacks integrity just because his moral code differs from yours? Then you said you don't want to make this about you personally but you make it about others personally. Doesn't that hypocritically violate your own moral code?: "If you do to another person what you don't want another person doing to you then you lack integrity." Then you even admitted that you've violated your code (and society's) regarding cheating with married women and didn't have integrity. But just because you admit you didn't have integrity that automatically gives you integrity ?

Latinoman, I just find your posts on this topic to be a bunch contradictions and hypocrisy, that's all.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Wow. 3 pages of yet another morality love-in with JOPHIL and LATINOMAN and no sign of GURU and his Napoleon "dynamite" Hill positivity? You're letting me down.

But rather than launch into another diatribe about why morality is just as convenient an excuse for behavior as relativism and spoil all the fun, I'll just say, beware of making your necessity a virtue. You can shoot an arrow, paint the target around it and get a bullseye every time. You see, it's not decisions between right and wrong that trip people up, it's decisions between right and right or wrong and wrong that do.

What rakes me about morality posts isn't really even the behavioral aspect of the debate; it's the defining of what makes for individual integrity, applying it universally and then seeking accolades for it because it happens to be EXACTLY what you perceive you really are.

You found a wallet with $100 in it and you returned it? What do you want, a cookie? YOU"RE SUPPOSED TO. I know I'm channeling Chris Rock again, but it's appropriate. And again, examples like this are TOO easy. Would you cheat on your wife if you knew she'd never find out? Would you steal $100K if you could do so? Easy and easy. These are right vs. wrong conundrums and we KNOW what the answer should be - that doesn't make you a "Man of Integrity", it makes you a person doing what they SHOULD do anyway.

I hate using this example, because it's been done to death, but it is useful; Your 7 y.o. daughter, whom you love more than life itself, has a rare disease and she's going to die in 24 hours if you don't get her the cure. A big pharmaceutical company has the cure, but it is so specialized, so rare and so expensive you cannot hope to attain it in time without stealing it. The company also has plans to make a huge amount of money from the sale of the drug. You know other fathers who have daughters and sons in the same situation, but there's only one dose available, however, you have an opportunity to break into the company and steal the cure without anyone knowing it was you. Do you do it?

Integrity is what you do in a Catch 22.

 

[Latinoman]

So he lacks integrity just because his moral code differs from yours? Then you said you don't want to make this about you personally but you make it about others personally. Doesn't that hypocritically violate your own moral code?:

No. He lacks integrity because his moral code are differing with his actions. He said that his moral code or principles don't allow him to cheat on his woman. But then he goes and becomes accessory to cheating. Hmmmmm...my moral code goes against stealing...but now I am going to drive a thief to a bank so he can do his deed???

"If you do to another person what you don't want another person doing to you then you lack integrity." Then you even admitted that you've violated your code (and society's) regarding cheating with married women and didn't have integrity.

Where did I say that I violated MY moral code? In fact, I don't remember ever sharing my OWN code of morals when it came to this particular issue. You are once again ASSUMING and making an AS-S out of yourself.

But I will tell you how it was at the time when I slept with married women.

1) I never slept with women that were married to family members, co-workers, neighbors or friends.
2) I never actively pursued married women. They pursued me.
3) I understood the potential consequences of sleeping with a married woman.
4) I never justified my behavior with anyone.
5) At the time, I could sleep very well at night if I cheated on my partner

Once again...that's how I saw things back then. In fact, I could not sleep with a married woman if those principles were violated. It was actually IMPOSSIBLE.

And I have no issues admitting that under societal standards my behavior at the time was very wrong. But do you know what? I NEVER had any problems going to sleep or looking myself in the mirror. I NEVER justified my actions. I NEVER came with excuses.

But just because you admit you didn't have integrity that automatically gives you integrity ?

I never said that I lacked integrity. I never said I had integrity either. I don't remember saying one thing or the other. I know what I have and I know what I lack.

Latinoman, I just find your posts on this topic to be a bunch contradictions and hypocrisy, that's all.

For argument sake...let's say I lack integrity. Just for argument sake. That does NOT change two facts:

1- There is not "gray areas" when it comes to integrity
2- Integrity is a very important quality in a man's character

I am not saying or preaching you or STR8UP should have integrity. I personally don't care. All I am saying is that you cannot justify LACK of integrity. And you cannot deny that integrity is a very important quality in a man's character.

 

[Latinoman]

Wow. 3 pages of yet another morality love-in with JOPHIL and LATINOMAN and no sign of GURU and his Napoleon "dynamite" Hill positivity? You're letting me down.

Hahahah. Pretty hilarious.

You forgot to add Col. Victory Unlimited to the posee.

 

[ketostix]

No. He lacks integrity because his moral code are differing with his actions. He said that his moral code or principles don't allow him to cheat on his woman. But then he goes and becomes accessory to cheating. Hmmmmm...my moral code goes against stealing...but now I am going to drive a thief to a bank so he can do his deed???

He never said his moral code doesn't include fukking a girl that is in a relationship. He said his code is to not fukk around when he's in a relationship. Your analogy to stealing vs. who you will fukk or not fukk it a false analogy. You're just not getting it.

Where did I say that I violated MY moral code? In fact, I don't remember ever sharing my OWN code of morals when it came to this particular issue. You are once again ASSUMING and making an AS-S out of yourself.

Oh whatever. I'm not going to dig through your posts but you repeatedly said fukking a married woman goes against society's ehtics and your ethics but you did it anyway, but since you admitted it was wrong (you said several times you admit it was wrong) as long as you admit it is wrong, don't make jusifications and take accountability that makes it different. You said that several times and now you deny it.

But I will tell you how it was at the time when I slept with married women.

1) I never slept with women that were married to family members, co-workers, neighbors or friends.
2) I never actively pursued married women. They pursued me.
3) I understood the potential consequences of sleeping with a married woman.
4) I never justified my behavior with anyone.
5) At the time, I could sleep very well at night if I cheated on my partner

Once again...that's how I saw things back then. In fact, I could not sleep with a married woman if those principles were violated. It was actually IMPOSSIBLE.

Hmm sounds like gray areas and justifications. I guess it's true we all deal in gray areas and justifications huh?

And I have no issues admitting that under societal standards my behavior at the time was very wrong. But do you know what? I NEVER had any problems going to sleep or looking myself in the mirror. I NEVER justified my actions. I NEVER came with excuses.

In other words you believed it was wrong but didn't care. That's not integrity. And HTF is admitting your doing something wrong any better than having a justification for it not being wrong?

I never said that I lacked integrity. I never said I had integrity either. I don't remember saying one thing or the other. I know what I have and I know what I lack.

I'm saying by your own standards you lack integrity so why does it even matter if STR8UP or whoever else lacks integrity or not. My point is you don't even seem to understand the concept of it.

For argument sake...let's say I lack integrity. Just for argument sake. That does NOT change two facts:

1- There is not "gray areas" when it comes to integrity
2- Integrity is a very important quality in a man's character

I am not saying or preaching you or STR8UP should have integrity. I personally don't care. All I am saying is that you cannot justify LACK of integrity. And you cannot deny that integrity is a very important quality in a man's character.

But there's gray areas a person might consider when it comes to what someone's code is. No one is justifying a lack of integrity. And no one said integrity isn't an important quality for a man or a woman to have.