Integrity

[ketostix]

I hate using this example, because it's been done to death, but it is useful; Your 7 y.o. daughter, whom you love more than life itself, has a rare disease and she's going to die in 24 hours if you don't get her the cure. A big pharmaceutical company has the cure, but it is so specialized, so rare and so expensive you cannot hope to attain it in time without stealing it. The company also has plans to make a huge amount of money from the sale of the drug. You know other fathers who have daughters and sons in the same situation, but there's only one dose available, however, you have an opportunity to break into the company and steal the cure without anyone knowing it was you. Do you do it?

Integrity is what you do in a Catch 22.

This is why I say there's gray areas and justifications. You can say I would never steal or I would never kill. But sometimes "stealing" and "killing" is more right than not. If your moral code is that you would only steal or kill if you had a strong justification, then you can steal or kill in that situation and have integrity.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Would you be willing to murder an innocent person if it meant you could end millions dying from world hunger?

If a new medicine could prevent cancer, but would would cause a fatal reaction in 10% of the population, would you release it to the public?

You're a struggling musician who's just discovered your GF is pregnant, but fortunately you've just been offered a very lucrative recording deal if you'll only compromise your musical style and cater to the requests of the record label. Do you compromise yourself artistically and take the deal or continue to struggle to make ends meet with a GF who wants you to marry and settle down with your new child?

Someone very close to you is dying from a very painful disease. He's paralyzed and will die within a month. He begs you to give him a poison that will end his suffering. Do you do it?

Say you had the power to make a slot machine give a jackpot at will. Your mother needs money for rent this month or she'll be evicted. Do you use your power?

While parking late at night you happen to slightly scrape the side of a Porsche. You are certain that no one has seen what's happened. The damage is minor and wouldn't be covered by insurance. Do you leave a note for the owner?

By controlling medical research funds you are in the position to guarantee a cure for any disease in 15 years. Unfortunately no progress would be made on any other disease in this time. Would you target one disease?

You and a person you deeply love are placed in separate rooms with a button next to each of you. You know you will both be killed unless one of you presses your button before 1 hour passes. The first to press the button will save the other person, but you will be immediately killed. What do you do?



I've got a million more just like this. Nothing is black & white, nothing is binary.

 

[Warrior74]

still arguing like lil bytches I see. LOL.

 

[STR8UP]

I've got a million more just like this. Nothing is black & white, nothing is binary.

You can throw them out till your fingers fall off, but these guys won't understand.

And for the record, I never said that I would never cheat. I said that I don't believe that it is right for one person to break a commitment to another, but that it has nothing to do with anyone but the two parties who share a commitment.

Having seen the way the world works I have changed my stance over the years. I used to believe that cheating was a deplorable act that was only practiced by BAD people.

Then I began studying psychology and sociology and observing and taking note of what was going on around me, and I realized that it's actually a part of life, like it or not. Lots of people do it, and they aren't necessarily BAD people.

 

[guru1000]

Would you be willing to murder an innocent person if it meant you could end millions dying from world hunger?

If a new medicine could prevent cancer, but would would cause a fatal reaction in 10% of the population, would you release it to the public?

You're a struggling musician who's just discovered your GF is pregnant, but fortunately you've just been offered a very lucrative recording deal if you'll only compromise your musical style and cater to the requests of the record label. Do you compromise yourself artistically and take the deal or continue to struggle to make ends meet with a GF who wants you to marry and settle down with your new child?

Someone very close to you is dying from a very painful disease. He's paralyzed and will die within a month. He begs you to give him a poison that will end his suffering. Do you do it?

Say you had the power to make a slot machine give a jackpot at will. Your mother needs money for rent this month or she'll be evicted. Do you use your power?

While parking late at night you happen to slightly scrape the side of a Porsche. You are certain that no one has seen what's happened. The damage is minor and wouldn't be covered by insurance. Do you leave a note for the owner?

By controlling medical research funds you are in the position to guarantee a cure for any disease in 15 years. Unfortunately no progress would be made on any other disease in this time. Would you target one disease?

You and a person you deeply love are placed in separate rooms with a button next to each of you. You know you will both be killed unless one of you presses your button before 1 hour passes. The first to press the button will save the other person, but you will be immediately killed. What do you do?



I've got a million more just like this. Nothing is black & white, nothing is binary.

Hey Rollo. You throw this bait out to get me into this thread. Up to now, LATINOMAN has been smacking these posters around like a possy of litte boys.

It is time for GURU to come in and deliver a few knock out punches and put these SHEEP to sleep.

Foremost, I think anybody who WOULD take a stance against INTEGRITY in any manner is clearly doing it for either of two reasons:

1- The Exercise of Debate
2 - Serious Character Flaw

Clearly, the PROPOSED if's you have suggested is simply taking a man of integrity and presenting him with this circumstance:

TWO OF YOUR RULES ARE IN JEOPARDY. YOU MUST PICK ONE TO BREAK THE OTHER. WHICH ONE WILL IT BE?

The answer is which ever rule is of most importance in your hierarchy of moral code. If TAKING CARE OF YOUR FAMILY is RULE # 1 and NOT STEALING is RULE #4, you will CHOOSE Rule # 1.

It is quite simple actually. This does not mean the MAN lacks intergrity. You put him a situation where to adhere to one rule, he must break another. By doing nothing, he is not adhering to one rule.

So the answer to your dilemna is a MAN of INTEGRITY will adhere to the rule that is of most importance to his MORAL CODE.

Certainly no GREY AREAS there. LOL

Let's get to the HEART of the matter,

The issue of INTEGRITY and its importance lies in your NATURE vs CONVICTION.

Should I attain money wrongfully to better my tangible life?

Should I sell myself out to get ahead?

Should I sleep with UNAVAILABLE women to satisfy my sexual desire?

Should I DISRESPECT myself to satify a desire?

Should I call my X?

How do I ........?

How can I...........?

Do I .............?

When will ...........?

Why .................?

These are the questions where INTEGRITY makes the difference.

And truth be told MR. ROLLO, if MEN these days had INTEGRITY, SoSuave would not be SWAMPED with AFCism. Thus it is the lack of integrity which has created this forum.

 

[jophil28]

Integrity is what you do in a Catch 22.

NO it is not ,ROLLO - INTEGRITY is what you PRACTISE when there is nobody looking and no apparent or immediate consequences . Mostly there is NO Catch 22 and no gray areas -NO extentuating circumstances and no legitimate reasons to divert from your principles. The difficulty for some of you guys appears to be in having the wisdom and the strength in designing a moral and ethical code for yourselves in the first place. That is just too inconvenient isn't it ? Better to see the world, and your decisions in it, as all gray .That provides you with endless opportunities to do the convenient and the expedient and justify it later if your decision fails you. Then you can always fall back on the arugument that the world is a complicated and ambiguous place and you "...did the best you could " when in fact you did only what FELT good at the time.

The lack of an articulate statement from the "gray" camp is interesting and informative,too - there is not one "gray " post here which carried the weight and authority of Latinoman's original post.
In rebuttal, we have had the usual meandering, liberal ,non-binary mush and little else.

INTEGRITY reveals itself through personal action which is consistent with one's pre-determined values, ethics, morals and principles.

Latinoman stand head and shoulders above all of you in this thread .

Further, if any of you DO happen to ever find yourselves in extreme circumstances which resemble the extraordinary examples which Rollo invented ,then refer to Guru's post above for counseling and guidance.

 

[iqqi]

That is just too inconvenient isn't it ? Better to see the world, and your decisions in it, as all gray .

Or to pretend you are just an animal, and not a Man.




....

 

[Latinoman]

Ketostix...I changed my mind. Just read my Original Post.

 

[ketostix]

So the answer to your dilemna is a MAN of INTEGRITY will adhere to the rule that is of most importance to his MORAL CODE.

Jeez, that's the same thing I was saying and I think Rollo and Str8up. This is the same thing as seeing a gray area. It's 6 of one and half dozen of the other.

Latinoman stand head and shoulders above all of you in this thread .

Jophil I'm kind of surprised you would say that. Latinoman said his moral code is some mysterious concoction in his head and based on societal ethics then he contradict that saying it's not based on society's ethics shaping it. Then he went on about he cheated with married women in the past but it was better when he did it because he admitted he believed it was wrong. I can't make heads or tells of what Latinoman and Guru100 are saying. I do however understand your view Jophil that it's always wrong to fukk a woman who's married.

 

[Latinoman]

You can throw them out till your fingers fall off, but these guys won't understand.

And for the record, I never said that I would never cheat. I said that I don't believe that it is right for one person to break a commitment to another, but that it has nothing to do with anyone but the two parties who share a commitment.

Having seen the way the world works I have changed my stance over the years. I used to believe that cheating was a deplorable act that was only practiced by BAD people.

Then I began studying psychology and sociology and observing and taking note of what was going on around me, and I realized that it's actually a part of life, like it or not. Lots of people do it, and they aren't necessarily BAD people.

Just read my Original post. I stand by it 100%.

 

[Latinoman]

Jophil I'm kind of surprised you would say that. Latinoman said his moral code is some mysterious concoction in his head and based on societal ethics then he contradict that saying it's not based on society's ethics shaping it. Then he went on about he cheated with married women in the past but it was better when he did it because he admitted he believed it was wrong. I can't make heads or tells of what Latinoman and Guru100 are saying. I do however understand your view Jophil that it's always wrong to fukk a woman who's married.

Here is the thing ketostix...we are not talking about Latinoman's moral code. We are not talking about Latinoman's integrity or lack of.

We are talking about my original post. Which I will summarize with the following 12 points:

1- Integrity is defined as a steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

2- Integrity is black or white....

3- In essence, you either have integrity or you don’t

4- Gray areas are created by society and individuals as a way (right or wrong) to justify certain actions.

5- Integrity is a very important quality in a man's character.

6- You cannot justify lack of integrity.

7- Finding "gray areas" that allow you to bend your principals so you can sleep peacefully at night does not make you a man of integrity.

8- No one is perfect.

9- Many times we will be faced situations that will test our character. If you do something that tests the principles that define integrity, the best thing you can do is take accountability for your actions and make sure you accept and learn from that mistake.

10- Justifying lack of integrity in fact diminishes accountability.

11- Accountability is another important quality that defines a man’s character.

12- Lack of integrity is in fact a serious character flaw.

 

[ketostix]

Are you speaking for him now? Incredible. What's next? Jumping in excitement? Dude...he didn't even offer you a place to stay in Florida.

Dude lol I am quoting him. You have a problem of not appreciating other people's counter arguments and what can a person do but keep repeating them to you?

False. Either go back to school and re-develop some comprehesion skills. I am telling you in your face right now...I am NOT justifying my actions. I personally don't care. Dude, I am not STR8UP. LOL.

I'm not saying you were justifying your actions I said you said a person can';t justify their actions and I'm disagreeing with you. Talk about a having comprehension problem lol.

No gray areas at all. Straight up PRINCIPLES.

You are playing the semantics game. A gray area is where principles lie.

You "guess" and "assume" too much, kid.

OK the pot calling the kettle black again.

Of course I didn't care. Who said I did? LOL.

Well if you don't even care about, as you've admitted, violating your own moral code then you have no integrity and should never lecture anyone about integrity.

Really? Wow...I'm going to cry. LOL.

Don't cry, just admit that you can't talk about something you don't have or don't seem to understand lol.

There is not such thing as gray areas. Gray areas are there to JUSTIFY actions.

Dude do you even know what justify means? You just ignore people points as if they never even made them. I can see I'm talking to a brick wall.

In Conclusion

There is NO way you can debate with me. You will continue to bend and turn my words. And personally I don't care. Fact remains I stand 100% by my comments.

Well your comments are there for anyone to see and I haven't twisted your words one bit. You though, have twisted the generally accepted meaning of the words you've used. Plus you don't fully appreciate or address another person's counter points. you just keep repeating the same argument.

Do I have integrity? Do I lack integrity? I sleep well every night...so who truly cares? But it is fun to debate with you. :rockon:

Well there you go, in your own words you don't care about integrity anyway.

 

[Latinoman]

Here is the thing ketostix...we are not talking about Latinoman's moral code. We are not talking about Latinoman's integrity or lack of.

We are talking about my original post. Which I will summarize with the following 12 points:

1- Integrity is defined as a steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

2- Integrity is black or white....

3- In essence, you either have integrity or you don’t

4- Gray areas are created by society and individuals as a way (right or wrong) to justify certain actions.

5- Integrity is a very important quality in a man's character.

6- You cannot justify lack of integrity.

7- Finding "gray areas" that allow you to bend your principals so you can sleep peacefully at night does not make you a man of integrity.

8- No one is perfect.

9- Many times we will be faced situations that will test our character. If you do something that tests the principles that define integrity, the best thing you can do is take accountability for your actions and make sure you accept and learn from that mistake.

10- Justifying lack of integrity in fact diminishes accountability.

11- Accountability is another important quality that defines a man’s character.

12- Lack of integrity is in fact a serious character flaw.

 

[ketostix]

Here is the thing ketostix...we are not talking about Latinoman's moral code. We are not talking about Latinoman's integrity or lack of.

We are talking about my original post. Which I will summarize with the following 12 points:

OK.

1- Integrity is defined as a steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

Agree

2- Integrity is black or white....

Yes the concept is but the practice depends on fully knowing the other person moral code.

3- In essence, you either have integrity or you don’t

Agree for a specific situation, but a person can have more integrity or less integrity than another.

4- Gray areas are created by society and individuals as a way (right or wrong) to justify certain actions.

Gray Areas are also all the facts. and justifications isn't a bad word justification means something is justified. Justification doesn't always mean an "excuse" or flase justification.

5- Integrity is a very important quality in a man's character.

Agree also for a woman's character.

6- You cannot justify lack of integrity.

Agree if you've concluded something is worng and you do it anyway you can't justify it. If could jusitfy it then it's not wrong in the first place.

7- Finding "gray areas" that allow you to bend your principals so you can sleep peacefully at night does not make you a man of integrity.

What your saying can be true or not it depends on if your "gray area" are justifiable or not.

8- No one is perfect.

What does this mean? When you say you either have integrity or you don't, you seem to be saying some people are perfect and others aren't. Now you're sounding like you agree with me.

9- Many times we will be faced situations that will test our character. If you do something that tests the principles that define integrity, the best thing you can do is take accountability for your actions and make sure you accept and learn from that mistake.

No the best thing you can do is determine if you are justified or not.

10- Justifying lack of integrity in fact diminishes accountability.

Accountability also diminshes integrity. Because if your accounting for something then you either knowingly broke your integrity or your moral code differs from whoever you are accounting to.

11- Accountability is another important quality that defines a man’s character.

OK now you are admitting that people sometimes have integrity and sometimes they don't. Otherwise they wouldn't really have anything to account for.

12- Lack of integrity is in fact a serious character flaw.

I agree for the most part.

 

[iqqi]

Latinoman said that integrity is black and white, then you said:

Yes the concept is but the practice depends on fully knowing the other person moral code.

How do you mean?

I thought one of the main points we all agreed to thus far is that integrity is PERSONAL and has absolutely nothing to do with another person and their integrity or lack thereof.

Atleast, that was one of MY main points.

Guru said it well when he said integrity is tested when you are ALONE, not with witnesses. As it is a personal thing.

 

[iqqi]

Anyways, I would go as far as to say that integrity is an adjective, and not an action. (Look, I KNOW it is really a noun, lol... but you get my point).

It influences actions.

 

[hithard]

I think we are moving past the integrity into righteousness. Integrity can mean a million different things to different people. Like I said before someone has probably labeled you as having low integrity already in your life. Yes I know it’s between you and you. So how many of you have lied and cheated yourself??

Let’s see any of these commitments to yourself ring a bell
I'll never drink again.
I'm going to lose weight.
Spend more time with the kids.
Spam generic NYE commitment.

Almost everyone has promised themselves, or made a commitment for themselves then broken it. So are you now without integrity??
Integrity is self imposed guidelines that mark your comfort zone. It keeps you in check to a standard you are happy with.

Ok something else; there are people I would lend money to without blinking. Because they have proven themselves in this area. But often lack severely in another area that calls into question there integrity. Theres a million different examples of this. You will be hard pressed finding someone that covers every single base.

It's not the be all and end all. I could call into question almost everyone that has posted here integrity. It’s black and white because there your rigid rules. But that doesn’t mean everyone shares the same values. It is subjective given such a differing of opinion. Thus creating the grey areas between 2 people. You guys are taking too much of a movie approach to integrity.In fact probably going a bit to far with the live your life by these bible like notions.

Good luck with ONS as well all you high and mighty people

 

[iqqi]

I disagree.

Almost anyone in my life that I have got an impression of INTEGRITY from (not many), anyone else that I spoke to about it, had the same impression.

Integrity is recognized, and rare.


I agree it is hard to describe. It's like an "it" factor, but better.

If you got it, you got it. If you don't, I bet you already know. But you lie to yourself. Gray areas.

 

[hithard]

I disagree.

Almost anyone in my life that I have got an impression of INTEGRITY from (not many), anyone else that I spoke to about it, had the same impression.

Integrity is recognized, and rare.


I agree it is hard to describe. It's like an "it" factor, but better.

If you got it, you got it. If you don't, I bet you already know. But you lie to yourself. Gray areas.

Gray areas between 2 people.Shoulda put that in bold

I have yet to meet someone that has integrity in all areas of there life at all times.
You can have very high values when someone lends you money .That you make sure come heaven or hell that you will pay it back. You will give off the aura of integrity with those people that deal with you in money. However you could be ****ing their wife behind there back and think that’s your right. So like I said different strokes for different folks.

Integrity could be a more percieved value really.No one can really tell.And you can delude yourself into thinking you have it.

 

[iqqi]

That is a man without integrity.

I don't see the grayness.