Brutus said:
LovelyLady,
I wanted to comment before, when you and ketostix were discussing tests, but then I thought, why bother if she's twisting the words and making jokes to evade the whole issue (because that's exactly what you were doing when ketostix pointed out your logical errors).
If you're gonna do this - come here to discuss man-female dynamics - then do it right or don't do it at all. We know it's sooo hard for women to admit when they're wrong about dating and relationships (because they are all self-proclaimed experts), but have the guts to do it, at least when you're on anonymous internet forum.
You hate dishonesty in men and will discard him if you find out he lied, but at the same time you test him, which is dishonest form of communication. If you say to a man that you want to pay for the lunch, but the truth is, you want him to pay, you're being dishonest (don't get stuck up on the fact that this is something you did - I'm just using it as an example.)
Now, you can rationalize tests with "I'm just gathering information" or "I'm just being womanly", but the bottom line is, it's not truthful communication - you don't say what you mean, which is a form of lie. Every "relationship expert" (that is, every woman) will say honest communication is crucial and will crucify a man in her thoughts when he lies (you're the proof), but at the same time, she tests him mercilessly.
Pook and others were right when they said we shouldn't think about women in terms of integrity.
Brutus,
I was responding to the honesty/lies within the context of what Interceptor had written: Honesty with a woman about the truth of where the man truly is in his relationship with a woman/ what he truly wants from a relationship, and Alias' subsequent response that women don't want that honesty - but to be Don Juaned, so to speak. My belief is that BOTH should be possible - honesty and true alpha status go hand in hand within this context IMHO). That is the context of the "lies" and honesty I was addressing.
Do I think there is a place for deceit in relationships - yes. If you have a good inkling you are being cheated on you have every right to check up on your partner to see if there has been cheating - generally this means doing some dishonest activity yourself (hiring a detective, or checking the text messages, or whatever.) This is the age of AIDs. Having a cheating partner leads to more than broken heartedness, it can literally kill you. Is it moral relativism? You bet your sweet bumpkis it is.
As to the lunch buying, as representative of a dynamic: Could I have been honest & more direct and said something like " I want you to be a man who can handle taking the reigns in the most basic of traditional ways. I want to know if you will be in charge for the whole date, or do I have to keep my armor of independence on?" Yes, I could have been this honest and direct.
And... Could he have been honest & direct and just said "I want you to be compliant, submissive, have a sense of humor, and be physically/sexually playful and have me lead in the bedroom as well ". Yes, he could have.
Yes, we both could have been more honest and direct in our approaches of gathering that information. But the way we played it together so beautifully was fun for us both. It was clear what was being communicated between us without being dull and dry. And it just wasn't that deep or complicated - just male-female dynamics.
He HEARD what I was really saying - he GOT it. He was not baffled as to what I was really asking. He "got" me - I "got" him. We established a rapport, an understanding, a comfort level - as it is referred to in this forum.
Obviously, I would not be compatable with a man who felt that this level of communicating between us was dishonest - so a man such as yourself who wants everything honestly, straightforwardly spelled out and I would never make it to skating, lunch, or - potentially - any bedroom antics LOL Clearly you would have nexted me before the party even began. And good for you to hold out for the right woman for you who will be very direct and honest with you - and charmed by your straightforward, honest responses as well. To each his own.
I however, prefer the subtle, easy, fun banter where the underlying dynamic was not only understood between us, but appreciated and enjoyed. We were on the same wavelength. He was not intimidated, phased, baffled, resentful, suspicious, or overwhelmed by my test - nor was I by his. It was all good. It was all fun.
Another example from the recent past:
I had a man over for dinner recently. After dinner he started to get up and help clear the table - did he really want to do that? No. And did I let him? No. He was told to sit right back down and relax - I took care of the dirty dishes. That is MY job.
If he had gone in to a whole diatribe about equality in housework, blah blah blah, than I would have found out we are not compatable. As it was, he just leaned back and laughed and said "It's good to be King"
He liked that I was taking care of him in this traditional way - and it made me feel GOOD that he let me do it. I like being the girl - but another woman may not define her feminity that way - that would have been good information for him to get as well. See?
Would it have been more honest & direct of him to say "I am the Man and I don't want to be the 'New Male' - But I am going to offer to help to see how you react." Was he conscious it was a test? probably not.
Do I "next" him for being "dishonest" because the truth was he really wanted to sit and be King and not help with the clearing of the table? The truth was he actually wanted me to be The Woman who will care for him in this traditional way. Was he manipulating by saying he would clear the table? I don't think so.
These are small interactions of relating, these are where the the groundwork of defining what we want from eachother, how we function as a couple. The actual interactions that make the dance worth getting dressed up for.
There are a myriad of ways that I am beginning to recognize that
both genders test for compatability - on immensely subtle levels.
I find it hard to believe that these tests, on either gender's part, are malicious or meant to trip up the other gender. My belief is that what we are all hoping to find is the person who "passes" the majority of the tests (or gives us the "positive information" we are hoping for - in Womannese - LOL).
If these types of interactions scream as a lack of integrity and true dishonesty to you, than I am guilty as charged.
