The issue with telling men to work on self improvement

[jaymbrs]

There are diminishing returns once you near your max potential on any given variable (looks, money, status, etc), and there are *also* diminishing returns due to time. One could potentially embark on a 2, 5, or 10 year self-improvement plan only to find a worse dating environment than when you started. Two different types of diminishing returns at play here.

This is me right now. However self improvement shouldn't be about women. Self improvement is to make you feel better about yourself. I think men need to understand this.

 

[sangheilios]

There are diminishing returns once you near your max potential on any given variable (looks, money, status, etc), and there are *also* diminishing returns due to time. One could potentially embark on a 2, 5, or 10 year self-improvement plan only to find a worse dating environment than when you started. Two different types of diminishing returns at play here.

I totally agree. I feel that how much the dating market has changed is a big factor. Let's say a guy has worked really hard on bettering himself, getting into or staying in shape, living a good life, etc. It's totally normal and natural for a man like this to want a woman that is around his level, meaning she is well adjusted, attractive, in shape, etc. There is a degree of entitlement in this, but in my opinion looking for a woman around your level and that is similar to you is completely normal and acceptable. The problem is with the modern dating market women are now able to get attention from men that are quite honestly well above their level, even have sex with them, etc. It's totally possible a guy could be killing it in life and still only be able to land attention from a legitimately below average woman.

Imagine being in shape, doing well for yourself and having some hobbies you enjoy, friends you hang out with, etc. Overall you are a decent quality guy and have no real serious issues. Now, imagine how you would feel if you were this man and have little real dating success but only getting attention from women that are very unattractive, quite overweight and out of shape, etc.? This is a huge issue in my opinion and I also believe that this is the reason why so many men are giving up in the dating world and focusing on other things. There is a reason why all of these youtube channels having been popping up recently that are dedicated to the topics that have been discussed on this forum for quite some time.

 

[SW15]

Let's say you got a new job and are going to be moving to a different area of your metro, are you going to put all this on hold because of some dumb girl you took out for a date the other night that you still barely even know?

Most people wouldn't, but there's a story I know of a woman who did that. Re-read story below. Exceptions like this prove the rule.

I know of one woman who was in her final semester of college (senior year) and met a man who was a junior. They went out on some dates in the 1-2 months prior to her graduation. She stayed in the city of that college and waited for that guy to also graduate. It didn't make a lot of sense for her not to move to another city upon her graduation and stay put for a guy she had 1-2 months of history with dating. It was completely irrational and against all conventional dating advice but it ended up working out for her as she got a multi-year relationship because she did that.

I feel that how much the dating market has changed is a big factor. Let's say a guy has worked really hard on bettering himself, getting into or staying in shape, living a good life, etc. It's totally normal and natural for a man like this to want a woman that is around his level, meaning she is well adjusted, attractive, in shape, etc. There is a degree of entitlement in this, but in my opinion looking for a woman around your level and that is similar to you is completely normal and acceptable.

There's no entitlement. This is fine.

The problem is with the modern dating market women are now able to get attention from men that are quite honestly well above their level, even have sex with them, etc. It's totally possible a guy could be killing it in life and still only be able to land attention from a legitimately below average woman.

True

Imagine being in shape, doing well for yourself and having some hobbies you enjoy, friends you hang out with, etc. Overall you are a decent quality guy and have no real serious issues. Now, imagine how you would feel if you were this man and have little real dating success but only getting attention from women that are very unattractive, quite overweight and out of shape, etc.? This is a huge issue in my opinion and I also believe that this is the reason why so many men are giving up in the dating world and focusing on other things. There is a reason why all of these youtube channels having been popping up recently that are dedicated to the topics that have been discussed on this forum for quite some time.

It would be normal to feel quite lousy about things. The little success in dating would likely cause significant psychological issues.

 

[sangheilios]

This is me right now. However self improvement shouldn't be about women. Self improvement is to make you feel better about yourself. I think men need to understand this.

What I was getting at is self improvement should not make a man feel that he is guaranteed to do well with women. It may bolster his chances of doing well, but there is NOTHING saying that this will work out in the end.

 

[SW15]

What I was getting at is self improvement should not make a man feel that he is guaranteed to do well with women. It may bolster his chances of doing well, but there is NOTHING saying that this will work out in the end.

That would be a bitter pill to swallow and would lead to threads like this....

I built it, they didn't come

Hi guys, I've just recently discovered this site, but many of the concepts have been familiar to me for years, decades even. I'm not really about learning game, but I read the "book of Pook", and many of the concepts in that series of posts have been second nature to me for my whole life. I...

www.sosuave.net

When a man engages in big time self improvement and it doesn't affect his dating outcomes, that's a result that is psychologically damaging.

 

[SW15]

I was doing some day drinking yesterday and met an off duty waitress from this really popping bar near me. She was just drinking at the bar next to me and we started talking. She asked me what I did and when I told her, I could visually see her interest drop. I'm a District Sales Manager for a big name car company, managing sales objectives for 14 dealerships in Houston. At first she thought I was a salesman which I think had I just said yes to, she probably would've stayed interested. Only thing I can think of is she either found my occupation too high level for her or she assumed I was a white collar nerd.

This is a cool story. This is a reason not to discuss occupation in the initial approach and really not even on the first date. All a woman needs to know on an initial approach is that you are either employed or have a high enough net worth to take her out on dates.

 

[jaymbrs]

This is a cool story. This is a reason not to discuss occupation in the initial approach and really not even on the first date. All a woman needs to know on an initial approach is that you are either employed or have a high enough net worth to take her out on dates.

Well after her telling me what she did she asked me what I did. I’m open to hearing what I should’ve responded with.

 

[SW15]

Well after her telling me what she did she asked me what I did. I’m open to hearing what I should’ve responded with.

Roosh had a great article that covered this subject....

Getting Laid While Unemployed And Living In Your Dad’s Basement

 

[Giovanni SouthSide]

Women actually do ask “what do you do” very early on. It gets annoying actually.

I just reply “I rarely answer questions is what I do” with a clean dirty smirk and a gleam in my eye.

 

[jaymbrs]

Roosh had a great article that covered this subject....

Getting Laid While Unemployed And Living In Your Dad’s Basement

I kinda figured this was the case. I’ll admit I wasn’t all that attracted to her and she seemed pretty easy. I guess I didnt care how she responded. With that said I’m glad I experienced this with someone I didn’t care about. Now I know how to respond with a woman I’m actually interested in.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

I just reply “I rarely answer questions is what I do” with a clean dirty smirk and a gleam in my eye.

This is a great line for Southside, but if you can't project a certain image (i.e., you're more of a regular dude) you're best going with a quick, generic response that doesn't raise any red flags, and then redirecting the conversation

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Well after her telling me what she did she asked me what I did. I’m open to hearing what I should’ve responded with.

"I sell cars", and then very briefly talk about the high-end automobiles you're responsible for.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

That would be a bitter pill to swallow and would lead to threads like this....

I built it, they didn't come

Hi guys, I've just recently discovered this site, but many of the concepts have been familiar to me for years, decades even. I'm not really about learning game, but I read the "book of Pook", and many of the concepts in that series of posts have been second nature to me for my whole life. I...

www.sosuave.net

When a man engages in big time self improvement and it doesn't affect his dating outcomes, that's a result that is psychologically damaging.

The big overarching issue here is an unstable society. To illustrate this, if you google the catchphrase "if you build it, they will come" from the movie Field of Dreams, that catchphrase no longer exists. Google "Field of Dreams quotes" and you will see what I mean. Look to the top quote. It didn't exist prior to about 2010 or so. Before then, the referenced quote above is what existed in the movie. No one went back and re-did the film, but yet the quote has been changed. No one tampered with the search results either.

If you watch what is considered to be the "original" movie today, the quote has changed because the past has changed.

field of dreams quotes - Google Search

Look at the video title, then listen to the clip. And then look at the comments if you don't believe me. The video title says "if you build it, they will come." The video says "if you build it, *he* will come". The comments say, "WTF??"

 

[threeforfree]

"What do you do?"

"I'm a problem solver."

That covers literally anything. You could be a software developer, you could fill potholes by hand, you could be a hitman.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

"What do you do?"

"I'm a problem solver."

That covers literally anything. You could be a software developer, you could fill potholes by hand, you could be a hitman.

Dude, we're both 51 and know damn well this doesn't work with women over 30. If you and the girl are both younger, then yes. Otherwise, no. For us, they're just going to smirk at the answer and say "no really, tell me. I'm curious."

 

[redskinsfan92]

As alluded to in my post directly above, the "chances" are declining in real time. So you "raise" your chances through hard work only to find that your odds are the *same* as they were before. Why not just see an escort to improve your vibe? Much more immediate results that don't result in you losing ground due to dating market erosion.

This is the main issue with self-improvement today imo. 20 years ago, it was obviously a different story.

An escort isn't going to have your children

 

[Fruitbat]

I’m sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with most of this, but I agree with some. It’s a combination of all those factors.

it also very much depends on the culture you’re in, and what it values.

Where I’ve had the issue with gym being the sole goal, is that the kind of woman you will attract will be, unsurprisingly, women who like fit and attractive men above other traits. While a lot of these women can be attractive, I’ve found this attitude highly unattractive on a woman. I’ve had some female friends who’ve spoken about how their last fling had amazing abs, or massive biceps. I feel these women are sexually motivated and male poor dating partners. If this isn’t what you want, great. If you want to bang and bang, it may be a good strategy. I just find women like this off-puttting.

The same for money. Not so much career. Career shows the man you are, your resourcefulness and competence. Money alone is a terrible thing for a woman to be attracted to if you’re the guy who has it.
A lot of men with money simply inherited it, or took over a family business. Some had parents able to pay for amazing school that got them a de facto good job. None of these are indicative of a superior man.

Social skills I find are the most potent factor and also quite a good one to have as the women attracted to you often dig you for you. It’s the only thing that I’ve been blessed with naturally. I’ve been front running with a pot belly against uncharismatic gym goers a lot of my youth. I became a DJ and that got status and that came mainly from social skills. Flat, autistic and logical men without artistic flair or expressive communications do themselves an injustice. However, many women will still like them. Some of their fathers and brothers were the same. Actors, politicians, business mogels actually do better than bodybuilders. Top athletes on a par, but that’s the effect of status, not the body per se.

it all comes back to social status and quality of provision ultimately. This is what makes a man. Added to this is honour, integrity, charm and manners, and competence. These are what attract the best quality women.

 

[CornbreadFed]

The only time my money and career have helped me get laid is by giving me the ability to afford a place in a prime dating location. Other than that, it wouldn’t make much a difference because I still got laid when I was making less money. Hell, it actually kind of hurts you by shrinking your dating pool, patience with women, and time available.

 

[radha]

In terms of money it's completely worth it to start a business and work as hard as you possibly can for ~5 years in your 20's or 30's to achieve FIRE status. If you are at least moderately intelligent and understand how to take calculated risks you can easily build a company (as long as you are willing to work hard) with at least $3m enterprise value within a 5 year period then when you exit you have enough money to essentially retire. $3m won't be enough to live a TMZ baller lifestyle but it allows you to focus completely on game and your social life now that you don't have to work anymore. Plus FIRE feels amazing so it's a huge quality of life improvement regardless of if you get anymore women or not.

 

[espanish]

a man should not do ANYTHING to get women. not hit the gym, not get a cool haircut, not get a cool car.