The issue with telling men to work on self improvement

[sangheilios]

I've been seeing an interesting trend with mainstream media and youtube, where there is a lot of content recently discussing the issues that young men are experiencing with the modern dating market. There was one piece on CNN saying that over 60% of men were single while around 1/3 women were in the same bracket, which is very interesting. One thing that I've seen as advice for men struggling in the dating market is to work on self improvement. This can involved a variety of variables and while I believe there is some merit to this I now believe that this can actually create more issues instead of resolving those that are already there.

Some very specific "self improvement" pursuits that I will break down

Fitness- Every man should strive to be fit, active and healthy, no debate on this. However, telling a man to "hit the gym" does not mean success in the dating market will come his way. I believe that for men that are quite overweight and out of shape this is actually a fantastic plan that could help tremendously with their dating game. However, when we factor these men out and have more normal men I believe that pushing them to get heavily into gym/fitness is highly overrated. Most men just do not have the genetics to ever really stand out from others around them or look all that impressive. You can go to any gym and look at the regulars there that are semi-serious and you will see this for yourself. A huge issue is in today's world women are visually exposed to fit looking men on social media regularly. The thing is, most of these men don't even look like that in real life AND are also on steroids, so it's a complete illusion. I'm 6'4" 235-240 and one of the fittest and strongest guys at my gym, very active with hiking, etc. and I've had comments from some WOMEN about being fat, having a dad bod, etc. I've also had women point out an OBESE woman and tell me that is my league. If women are saying that to a man that is genetically well above average that says a lot. Some men may get super frustrated and not see the results they were hoping for and possibly start even taking steroids, news flash most guys it often makes them look far worse lol and you are just attracting attention from other men. Guys that also take this **** too far start obsessing over missed workouts, timing their meals, etc. What do you think a woman you are dating is going to think when you won't even take her out to dinner because it doesn't fit your macros lmfao?

Money/career- Every man should strive to be successful but should not assume that it will lead to dating success. Let's be real, unless you are a celebrity, pro athlete or high level multi-multi millionaire nothing you can realistically do will ever impress a woman. Women only care about money when you are able to provide a lifestyle like something you see on TMZ or some **** like that lol. Mark the mechanic and Bill the engineer really aren't all that different with regard to their success in the dating market, with the exception of women who will ONLY date those with a degree lol. The thing is, in order to have any of this make a difference you'd have to dedicate a ton of your time and energy into your hustle where you literally have no social life and would be unavailable. You may now have money, but now your dating success is nonexistent because you work 60+ hours per week and are too tired for much of anything else and have 0 social life. Hell, you might even be able to land a woman but not be able to keep her around because you can't spend any time with her lol.

Social skills/game- Unless you are a complete social retard that is not able to hold a conversation, this **** doesn't matter either. Very few men are going to have an elite level of charisma, a trait that is largely a characteristic that you have or don't. If you are heavily socially off, you should definitely work on this for sure. However, the vast majority of men do not fall into this category and it's not even worth considering.

The major keys to dating success are all variables related to luck. It's all about just being fortunate enough to cross paths with a woman you find attractive, who also has some degree of interest in you, that is also single at that given space in time. However, there are many other factors involved that you have no control over. What if these basic things are checked off but she is moving toa new city in a couple months.....do you think she is going to put her life on hold for some guy she just met? Life isn't some **** like you see out of a romance chick flick lol. Hell, maybe you get her on a first date and it goes really well but then 2 days later she finds out her mom is in the hospital with a stroke.....do you think you will be on her list of priorities? Maybe you have been going on a couple dates but you have some quirks that she doesn't like. Hell, a really common issue is you going on a date or two but during this time she has been talking to another guy that checks off more boxes on her list, so she naturally chooses him over you. We aren't even factoring in if YOU as a man even still like this woman, any of these other variables could happen to you.

Here is the thing, self improvement does not mean that you will have success in the dating market. Your results in the dating market, or lack thereof, can often be the result of factors that are well outside of your control.

 

[redskinsfan92]

While all this is true you can improve every factor that is in your control. It will not guarantee success, but it will raise your chances

 

[SW15]

Great post! Time to break down some key points.

Fitness- Every man should strive to be fit, active and healthy.... However, telling a man to "hit the gym" does not mean success in the dating market will come his way.

So true. It can help. Wheat Waffles has some good content around this topic. The gym is a huge part of enhancing one's looks. Rollo Tomassi even says "Money, Muscles, and Game". The muscular guy at the Spring Break foam party or mostly any gym in a big city has a better chance in approaching strangers. If I am looking to do pickup on the general gym floor, I want to be 6'0"+ and have big muscles in order to have a decent chance of succeeding in those approaches.

Money/career- Every man should strive to be successful but should not assume that it will lead to dating success. Mark the mechanic and Bill the engineer really aren't all that different with regard to their success in the dating market, with the exception of women who will ONLY date those with a degree lol. The thing is, in order to have any of this make a difference you'd have to dedicate a ton of your time and energy into your hustle where you literally have no social life and would be unavailable. You may now have money, but now your dating success is nonexistent because you work 60+ hours per week and are too tired for much of anything else and have 0 social life.

This is also true. Most men wouldn't see a difference in the mating market in how women would treat them making $55,000/year vs. $85,000/year or $85,000/year vs. $115,000/year. Those changes are too small and the total salaries are too small.

The range of $150,000-$200,000/year is where there might be a difference.

Most women make their own money now and are not impressed by a man's salary, because her own salary is close enough, especially if she's a white collar careerist female in her 30s/40s dating similarly aged white collar men. In order to impress women with money, your annual salary needs to be around 2.5x-3x of what hers is.

Single moms are more impressed by provider type males than childless women, even in the 30+ age range.

Social skills/game- Unless you are a complete social retard that is not able to hold a conversation, this **** doesn't matter either. Very few men are going to have an elite level of charisma, a trait that is largely a characteristic that you have or don't. If you are heavily socially off, you should definitely work on this for sure. However, the vast majority of men do not fall into this category and it's not even worth considering.

This is true. Ordinary men with ordinary social skills see very little benefit. There are some things men can do to enhance this but it doesn't make a meaningful difference in most cases.

The major keys to dating success are all variables related to luck. It's all about just being fortunate enough to cross paths with a woman you find attractive, who also has some degree of interest in you, that is also single at that given space in time....self improvement does not mean that you will have success in the dating market. Your results in the dating market, or lack thereof, can often be the result of factors that are well outside of your control.

I agree with this. There's an argument that you can make your own results from your own effort. There's some truth to that, but external factors outside of one's control are often more influential.

there are many other factors involved that you have no control over. What if these basic things are checked off but she is moving toa new city in a couple months.....do you think she is going to put her life on hold for some guy she just met? Life isn't some **** like you see out of a romance chick flick lol. Hell, maybe you get her on a first date and it goes really well but then 2 days later she finds out her mom is in the hospital with a stroke.....do you think you will be on her list of priorities?

Maybe you have been going on a couple dates but you have some quirks that she doesn't like. Hell, a really common issue is you going on a date or two but during this time she has been talking to another guy that checks off more boxes on her list, so she naturally chooses him over you.

We aren't even factoring in if YOU as a man even still like this woman, any of these other variables could happen to you.

This is mostly true. I know some exception type cases. I know of one woman who was in her final semester of college (senior year) and met a man who was a junior. They went out on some dates in the 1-2 months prior to her graduation. She stayed in the city of that college and waited for that guy to also graduate. It didn't make a lot of sense for her not to move to another city upon her graduation and stay put for a guy she had 1-2 months of history with dating. It was completely irrational and against all conventional dating advice but it ended up working out for her as she got a multi-year relationship because she did that.

 

[threeforfree]

While each individual point may be valid, another thing to consider is that if you are actively doing all those things you are going to be a busy guy, more successful with more things going on. If you are complacent with where you are, you'll likely have a lot more free time so you'll be more readily available to women which isn't a great thing. Keeping busy means being able to honestly tell the woman, "Nah, can't hang out tonight, I have BJJ class tonight" or "Nah, that was great but I can't sleep over... gotta hit the gym first thing."

Better to have your own interests and keep women from being the top spot in your priorities.

 

[VirtuousD]

Agreed, most of this mainstream advice is very outdated. All this tick box get a good job/career stuff is funny because what i do is not something a lot of women even ask lol no factor in dating at all. Although working retail won't exactly help your case.

 

[Robert28]

Agreed, most of this mainstream advice is very outdated. All this tick box get a good job/career stuff is funny because what i do is not something a lot of women even ask lol no factor in dating at all. Although working retail won't exactly help your case.

Women actually do ask “what do you do” very early on. It gets annoying actually.

 

[jaymbrs]

Women don’t care about your $100k salary. They care about your job. A guy making $100k doing white collar **** will not pull women the same way a guy making $100k bartending or tattooing or club DJing would.

 

[CornbreadFed]

Women don’t care about your $100k salary. They care about your job. A guy making $100k doing white collar **** will not pull women the same way a guy making $100k bartending or tattooing or club DJing would.

I agree, but the bartending DJ is going to have more access to and an expanded selection of women plus more time flexibility vs a normal 100k salary job.

Adding:

If you make 50-80k with little to no major bills, you are better off than a person making 100k plus that had to incur student loans/Jones debt to reach it.

 

[Stanley]

Improve because you feel inclined to do so, never for *****.

 

[jaymbrs]

Women actually do ask “what do you do” very early on. It gets annoying actually.

I was doing some day drinking yesterday and met an off duty waitress from this really popping bar near me. She was just drinking at the bar next to me and we started talking. She asked me what I did and when I told her, I could visually see her interest drop. I'm a District Sales Manager for a big name car company, managing sales objectives for 14 dealerships in Houston. At first she thought I was a salesman which I think had I just said yes to, she probably would've stayed interested. Only thing I can think of is she either found my occupation too high level for her or she assumed I was a white collar nerd.

 

[RangerMIke]

You shouldn't have to tell a person to be the best version of themselves they can be. Why? To have a good healthy life. Women are a byproduct...

 

[Gamisch]

This is kinda like the infamous " i buold it they didn't come " thread. Although I disagreed with you recently, I obviously understand the sentiment you describe.

The great secret about getting and keeping women is something untouchable. Like becoming rich. One man's blueprint won't neccesarily lead to success for the next man, but it might steer him into the right direction.

The irony is that pookie and rayray will at some piont get stuck within their lack of accomplishments and ability to provide. His girl will look for a beta provider on the side so she can enjoy the luxuries of life that Pookie Rayrays cant offer. The beta provider will feel like he was never her first choice.

Again, and i dont mean to offend you bro, but what's the possible workaround/solution for this problem? Let's never forget the " goal" was to become a DON JUAN, imo that's not something achievable for everyone...

 

[BillyPilgrim]

I've been seeing an interesting trend with mainstream media and youtube, where there is a lot of content recently discussing the issues that young men are experiencing with the modern dating market. There was one piece on CNN saying that over 60% of men were single while around 1/3 women were in the same bracket, which is very interesting. One thing that I've seen as advice for men struggling in the dating market is to work on self improvement. This can involved a variety of variables and while I believe there is some merit to this I now believe that this can actually create more issues instead of resolving those that are already there.

Some very specific "self improvement" pursuits that I will break down

Fitness- Every man should strive to be fit, active and healthy, no debate on this. However, telling a man to "hit the gym" does not mean success in the dating market will come his way. I believe that for men that are quite overweight and out of shape this is actually a fantastic plan that could help tremendously with their dating game. However, when we factor these men out and have more normal men I believe that pushing them to get heavily into gym/fitness is highly overrated. Most men just do not have the genetics to ever really stand out from others around them or look all that impressive. You can go to any gym and look at the regulars there that are semi-serious and you will see this for yourself. A huge issue is in today's world women are visually exposed to fit looking men on social media regularly. The thing is, most of these men don't even look like that in real life AND are also on steroids, so it's a complete illusion. I'm 6'4" 235-240 and one of the fittest and strongest guys at my gym, very active with hiking, etc. and I've had comments from some WOMEN about being fat, having a dad bod, etc. I've also had women point out an OBESE woman and tell me that is my league. If women are saying that to a man that is genetically well above average that says a lot. Some men may get super frustrated and not see the results they were hoping for and possibly start even taking steroids, news flash most guys it often makes them look far worse lol and you are just attracting attention from other men. Guys that also take this **** too far start obsessing over missed workouts, timing their meals, etc. What do you think a woman you are dating is going to think when you won't even take her out to dinner because it doesn't fit your macros lmfao?

Money/career- Every man should strive to be successful but should not assume that it will lead to dating success. Let's be real, unless you are a celebrity, pro athlete or high level multi-multi millionaire nothing you can realistically do will ever impress a woman. Women only care about money when you are able to provide a lifestyle like something you see on TMZ or some **** like that lol. Mark the mechanic and Bill the engineer really aren't all that different with regard to their success in the dating market, with the exception of women who will ONLY date those with a degree lol. The thing is, in order to have any of this make a difference you'd have to dedicate a ton of your time and energy into your hustle where you literally have no social life and would be unavailable. You may now have money, but now your dating success is nonexistent because you work 60+ hours per week and are too tired for much of anything else and have 0 social life. Hell, you might even be able to land a woman but not be able to keep her around because you can't spend any time with her lol.

Social skills/game- Unless you are a complete social retard that is not able to hold a conversation, this **** doesn't matter either. Very few men are going to have an elite level of charisma, a trait that is largely a characteristic that you have or don't. If you are heavily socially off, you should definitely work on this for sure. However, the vast majority of men do not fall into this category and it's not even worth considering.

The major keys to dating success are all variables related to luck. It's all about just being fortunate enough to cross paths with a woman you find attractive, who also has some degree of interest in you, that is also single at that given space in time. However, there are many other factors involved that you have no control over. What if these basic things are checked off but she is moving toa new city in a couple months.....do you think she is going to put her life on hold for some guy she just met? Life isn't some **** like you see out of a romance chick flick lol. Hell, maybe you get her on a first date and it goes really well but then 2 days later she finds out her mom is in the hospital with a stroke.....do you think you will be on her list of priorities? Maybe you have been going on a couple dates but you have some quirks that she doesn't like. Hell, a really common issue is you going on a date or two but during this time she has been talking to another guy that checks off more boxes on her list, so she naturally chooses him over you. We aren't even factoring in if YOU as a man even still like this woman, any of these other variables could happen to you.

Here is the thing, self improvement does not mean that you will have success in the dating market. Your results in the dating market, or lack thereof, can often be the result of factors that are well outside of your control.

Lol I actually had the great-first-date-and-two-days-later-her-mom-is-dying-and-now-she's-out-of-state-for-six-weeks scenario happen to me. It sucked.

The other point I think that should be made is Diminishing Returns. This is the main point I think a lot of guys are overlooking when they pound the self-improvement drum.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

While all this is true you can improve every factor that is in your control. It will not guarantee success, but it will raise your chances

As alluded to in my post directly above, the "chances" are declining in real time. So you "raise" your chances through hard work only to find that your odds are the *same* as they were before. Why not just see an escort to improve your vibe? Much more immediate results that don't result in you losing ground due to dating market erosion.

This is the main issue with self-improvement today imo. 20 years ago, it was obviously a different story.

 

[sangheilios]

Women don’t care about your $100k salary. They care about your job. A guy making $100k doing white collar **** will not pull women the same way a guy making $100k bartending or tattooing or club DJing would.

If you really wanted to just have a bunch of casual sex with crazy women, the best way to do this would be becoming a drug dealer or just having access to it lol. Not something I'd ever be interested in but it would work, women that have a drug issue will do just about anything to get it lol. Most escorts and prostitutes have drug issues, as do many party girls that aren't "professionals" lol.

 

[sangheilios]

Lol I actually had the great-first-date-and-two-days-later-her-mom-is-dying-and-now-she's-out-of-state-for-six-weeks scenario happen to me. It sucked.

The other point I think that should be made is Diminishing Returns. This is the main point I think a lot of guys are overlooking when they pound the self-improvement drum.

I was being sarcastic when I wrote that, but the point was that there could be a million things going on in a woman's life that you just met which would take far more priority than you lol. Let's say you got a new job and are going to be moving to a different area of your metro, are you going to put all this on hold because of some dumb girl you took out for a date the other night that you still barely even know?

 

[sangheilios]

As alluded to in my post directly above, the "chances" are declining in real time. So you "raise" your chances through hard work only to find that your odds are the *same* as they were before. Why not just see an escort to improve your vibe? Much more immediate results that don't result in you losing ground due to dating market erosion.

This is the main issue with self-improvement today imo. 20 years ago, it was obviously a different story.

And that's exactly what I was getting at. There is for sure a point of diminishing returns, as you mentioned. I believe that the whole self improvement thing can easily become a trap. Let's say a guy is relatively young, late teens or early 20s, and he hasn't had much success in the dating sphere. He then reads crap about getting in shape, dressing better, etc. and tries all of this but finds it doesn't really make much of a difference. Maybe he also read stuff about becoming wealthy or upping his career, so he starts working on that and still finds himself in the same predicament. The thing is, realistically none of this stuff is going to make all that much of a difference and he could eventually start doubling down on these efforts if he does not realize this fact. Then the next thing you know he's spent months or even years in this bubble of his own world and he still has nothing to show for it. This is a very real possibility if he was a bit unfortunate with how things lined up for him and he eventually gets frustrated and perhaps quits. It might not even be related to him as an individual either, maybe the women he is around are just insanely picky or maybe he has just had really bad timing with potential opportunities, etc. These are variables well outside of his control.

 

[Hamurabimbi]

Agreed, most of this mainstream advice is very outdated. All this tick box get a good job/career stuff is funny because what i do is not something a lot of women even ask lol no factor in dating at all. Although working retail won't exactly help your case.

agree. I never put my job nor my education on my Tinder profile and did fine.

 

[forcerecon01]

I've been seeing an interesting trend with mainstream media and youtube, where there is a lot of content recently discussing the issues that young men are experiencing with the modern dating market. There was one piece on CNN saying that over 60% of men were single while around 1/3 women were in the same bracket, which is very interesting. One thing that I've seen as advice for men struggling in the dating market is to work on self improvement. This can involved a variety of variables and while I believe there is some merit to this I now believe that this can actually create more issues instead of resolving those that are already there.

Some very specific "self improvement" pursuits that I will break down

Fitness- Every man should strive to be fit, active and healthy, no debate on this. However, telling a man to "hit the gym" does not mean success in the dating market will come his way. I believe that for men that are quite overweight and out of shape this is actually a fantastic plan that could help tremendously with their dating game. However, when we factor these men out and have more normal men I believe that pushing them to get heavily into gym/fitness is highly overrated. Most men just do not have the genetics to ever really stand out from others around them or look all that impressive. You can go to any gym and look at the regulars there that are semi-serious and you will see this for yourself. A huge issue is in today's world women are visually exposed to fit looking men on social media regularly. The thing is, most of these men don't even look like that in real life AND are also on steroids, so it's a complete illusion. I'm 6'4" 235-240 and one of the fittest and strongest guys at my gym, very active with hiking, etc. and I've had comments from some WOMEN about being fat, having a dad bod, etc. I've also had women point out an OBESE woman and tell me that is my league. If women are saying that to a man that is genetically well above average that says a lot. Some men may get super frustrated and not see the results they were hoping for and possibly start even taking steroids, news flash most guys it often makes them look far worse lol and you are just attracting attention from other men. Guys that also take this **** too far start obsessing over missed workouts, timing their meals, etc. What do you think a woman you are dating is going to think when you won't even take her out to dinner because it doesn't fit your macros lmfao?

Money/career- Every man should strive to be successful but should not assume that it will lead to dating success. Let's be real, unless you are a celebrity, pro athlete or high level multi-multi millionaire nothing you can realistically do will ever impress a woman. Women only care about money when you are able to provide a lifestyle like something you see on TMZ or some **** like that lol. Mark the mechanic and Bill the engineer really aren't all that different with regard to their success in the dating market, with the exception of women who will ONLY date those with a degree lol. The thing is, in order to have any of this make a difference you'd have to dedicate a ton of your time and energy into your hustle where you literally have no social life and would be unavailable. You may now have money, but now your dating success is nonexistent because you work 60+ hours per week and are too tired for much of anything else and have 0 social life. Hell, you might even be able to land a woman but not be able to keep her around because you can't spend any time with her lol.

Social skills/game- Unless you are a complete social retard that is not able to hold a conversation, this **** doesn't matter either. Very few men are going to have an elite level of charisma, a trait that is largely a characteristic that you have or don't. If you are heavily socially off, you should definitely work on this for sure. However, the vast majority of men do not fall into this category and it's not even worth considering.

The major keys to dating success are all variables related to luck. It's all about just being fortunate enough to cross paths with a woman you find attractive, who also has some degree of interest in you, that is also single at that given space in time. However, there are many other factors involved that you have no control over. What if these basic things are checked off but she is moving toa new city in a couple months.....do you think she is going to put her life on hold for some guy she just met? Life isn't some **** like you see out of a romance chick flick lol. Hell, maybe you get her on a first date and it goes really well but then 2 days later she finds out her mom is in the hospital with a stroke.....do you think you will be on her list of priorities? Maybe you have been going on a couple dates but you have some quirks that she doesn't like. Hell, a really common issue is you going on a date or two but during this time she has been talking to another guy that checks off more boxes on her list, so she naturally chooses him over you. We aren't even factoring in if YOU as a man even still like this woman, any of these other variables could happen to you.

Here is the thing, self improvement does not mean that you will have success in the dating market. Your results in the dating market, or lack thereof, can often be the result of factors that are well outside of your control.

So brutally true.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

And that's exactly what I was getting at. There is for sure a point of diminishing returns, as you mentioned. I believe that the whole self improvement thing can easily become a trap. Let's say a guy is relatively young, late teens or early 20s, and he hasn't had much success in the dating sphere. He then reads crap about getting in shape, dressing better, etc. and tries all of this but finds it doesn't really make much of a difference. Maybe he also read stuff about becoming wealthy or upping his career, so he starts working on that and still finds himself in the same predicament. The thing is, realistically none of this stuff is going to make all that much of a difference and he could eventually start doubling down on these efforts if he does not realize this fact. Then the next thing you know he's spent months or even years in this bubble of his own world and he still has nothing to show for it. This is a very real possibility if he was a bit unfortunate with how things lined up for him and he eventually gets frustrated and perhaps quits. It might not even be related to him as an individual either, maybe the women he is around are just insanely picky or maybe he has just had really bad timing with potential opportunities, etc. These are variables well outside of his control.

There are diminishing returns once you near your max potential on any given variable (looks, money, status, etc), and there are *also* diminishing returns due to time. One could potentially embark on a 2, 5, or 10 year self-improvement plan only to find a worse dating environment than when you started. Two different types of diminishing returns at play here.