The issue with telling men to work on self improvement

[espanish]

In terms of money it's completely worth it to start a business and work as hard as you possibly can for ~5 years in your 20's or 30's to achieve FIRE status. If you are at least moderately intelligent and understand how to take calculated risks you can easily build a company (as long as you are willing to work hard) with at least $3m enterprise value within a 5 year period then when you exit you have enough money to essentially retire. $3m won't be enough to live a TMZ baller lifestyle but it allows you to focus completely on game and your social life now that you don't have to work anymore. Plus FIRE feels amazing so it's a huge quality of life improvement regardless of if you get anymore women or not.

bro what are you talking about $3 million? are you living in the 1990s? have you seen the price of gas, price of housing, and everything else?

 

[espanish]

The major keys to dating success are all variables related to luck.

so like I have been saying for years, there is no such thing as game. everything is just pure statistical chance.

 

[member160292]

You never lead with money. You have her find out on her own…this is where your lifestyle leads her to believe. Show her how you live and she will naturally be drawn to you

 

[BadBoy89]

One thing that I've seen as advice for men struggling in the dating market is to work on self improvement.

Question asked.

I'm 6'4" 235-240

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Fitness- Every man should strive to be fit, active and healthy, no debate on this.

Question asked.

However, telling a man to "hit the gym" does not mean success in the dating market will come his way.

Question answered.

Money/career- Every man should strive to be successful

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but should not assume that it will lead to dating success.

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Social skills/game- If you are heavily socially off, you should definitely work on this for sure.

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However, the vast majority of men do not fall into this category and it's not even worth considering.

Question answered.

The major keys to dating success are all variables related to luck.

Here is the thing, self improvement does not mean that you will have success in the dating market.

No Questions asked but Questions answered.

 

[member160292]

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No Questions asked but Questions answered.

Question, why not spend time improving yourself instead of clickbait threads?

 

[The Duke]

In terms of money it's completely worth it to start a business and work as hard as you possibly can for ~5 years in your 20's or 30's to achieve FIRE status. If you are at least moderately intelligent and understand how to take calculated risks you can easily build a company (as long as you are willing to work hard) with at least $3m enterprise value within a 5 year period then when you exit you have enough money to essentially retire. $3m won't be enough to live a TMZ baller lifestyle but it allows you to focus completely on game and your social life now that you don't have to work anymore. Plus FIRE feels amazing so it's a huge quality of life improvement regardless of if you get anymore women or not.

Lol, name one business that can pay off $3million worth of loans in 5yrs? And if it's not borrowed money, what 20-30yo comes to the table with 3milllion?

And 3million isn't going to get you very far.

 

[sangheilios]

Lol, name one business that can pay off $3million worth of loans in 5yrs? And if it's not borrowed money, what 20-30yo comes to the table with 3milllion?

And 3million isn't going to get you very far.

I agree with your part about making a 3 million dollar business lol.

I disagree with your part about that kind of money not going far. If you aren't living in Hawaii or one of the major coastal metros in the U.S, you could easily pay cash for a nice house for under 500k. So, let's say you have 2.5 million left, you could easily bring in 5-10% per year in with very conservative investments, let's say 5% so you are bringing in around 125k/year. With no mortgage or rent your basic cost of living is incredibly low, so if you kept your lifestyle in check it shouldn't be an issue. Also, I'd never fully retire at that age and would try to get some sort of part time job that I enjoy that is laid back. Being retired like that you would have a lot of time on your hands, almost too much, at a time when you are in your prime. I just don't think it would be a good idea. I feel the biggest benefit of a situation like this is not really needing to work or being stuck in a job that you hate.

 

[The Duke]

I agree with your part about making a 3 million dollar business lol.

I disagree with your part about that kind of money not going far. If you aren't living in Hawaii or one of the major coastal metros in the U.S, you could easily pay cash for a nice house for under 500k. So, let's say you have 2.5 million left, you could easily bring in 5-10% per year in with very conservative investments, let's say 5% so you are bringing in around 125k/year. With no mortgage or rent your basic cost of living is incredibly low, so if you kept your lifestyle in check it shouldn't be an issue. Also, I'd never fully retire at that age and would try to get some sort of part time job that I enjoy that is laid back. Being retired like that you would have a lot of time on your hands, almost too much, at a time when you are in your prime. I just don't think it would be a good idea. I feel the biggest benefit of a situation like this is not really needing to work or being stuck in a job that you hate.

Point taken, wealth builds wealth. It becomes exponential. But not practical for anyone that didn't have money to start with. And highly unlikely for anyone that is young.

 

[European-DJ]

You’ll never be worse off by investing in your fitness / career / social skills, regardless of whether it’ll increase your chances with women (which it will)

 

[Murk]

Very few men are going to have an elite level of charisma, a trait that is largely a characteristic that you have or don't.

Strong disagree, you can work on charisma, and the level you need to be good with women, MANY people have, including at least 60% of my friends and ex-colleagues. Maybe it's a sales thing, maybe it's where I grew up where many have "the gift of the gab" but charisma and slick-talking ties into the aura you give off. It's tied into confidence, it's very overlooked on this forum. How else do "ugly" guys get hot girls (and don't say money because they're not all rich).

 

[CornbreadFed]

How else do "ugly" guys get hot girls

Status, the girl values power, race or something else over looks, glow up/glow down relationship, plenty of other reasons that’s not money related lol. I also think charisma is overrated and just having the right energy/grind mindset without being an awkward fvck will get you much further.

 

[radha]

Lol, name one business that can pay off $3million worth of loans in 5yrs? And if it's not borrowed money, what 20-30yo comes to the table with 3milllion?

And 3million isn't going to get you very far.

Where did I say anything about taking out $3million in loans? I said build a company to $3m in enterprise value and sell it as in start a business and work hard for 5 years until you build it to $3m in value and then sell it and FIRE. This is well within the reach of anyone who is willing to work hard and isn't an idiot. Running a business is all just problem solving and taking a series of calculated risks. You don't even need a creative idea... tons of me too businesses are just copycats of other existing businesses except they executed a certain aspect better and were able to gain market share that way.

Point taken, wealth builds wealth. It becomes exponential. But not practical for anyone that didn't have money to start with. And highly unlikely for anyone that is young.

This isn't true at all. You need to expand your network. Join some entrepreneurial groups or at least just make friends with a business owner. I'm in Vistage and MDS which are both great communities. You will find that most business owners came from middle or lower class backgrounds and started with very little then just worked really hard to build value. I know tons of guys from these groups in their 20's and 30's who had big exits and never need to work again in their lives if they don't want to.

I disagree with your part about that kind of money not going far. If you aren't living in Hawaii or one of the major coastal metros in the U.S, you could easily pay cash for a nice house for under 500k. So, let's say you have 2.5 million left, you could easily bring in 5-10% per year in with very conservative investments, let's say 5% so you are bringing in around 125k/year. With no mortgage or rent your basic cost of living is incredibly low, so if you kept your lifestyle in check it shouldn't be an issue. Also, I'd never fully retire at that age and would try to get some sort of part time job that I enjoy that is laid back. Being retired like that you would have a lot of time on your hands, almost too much, at a time when you are in your prime. I just don't think it would be a good idea. I feel the biggest benefit of a situation like this is not really needing to work or being stuck in a job that you hate.

I retired a couple of years ago after selling my company and haven't been bored since. I know lots of other young guys like myself who also had big exits and have been retired for several years and keep very busy with their social lives and hobbies. Most guys get obsessed with a hobby or sport, but the red pill ones like me spend a huge chunk of time just chasing women and reading forums like this. Keeps me pretty occupied lol. Also in your example it would be smarter to buy the house with a mortgage. Inflation rates are higher than mortgage interest rates so that essentially means your mortgage will have a negative nominal interest rate. I don't expect inflation to decline for another 5+ years because we still haven't even felt the effects of Russian and Ukraine supply chains going offline. We've basically been living off of reserves for many inputs for the past year.

 

[Murk]

Status, the girl values power, race or something else over looks, glow up/glow down relationship, plenty of other reasons that’s not money related lol. I also think charisma is overrated and just having the right energy/grind mindset without being an awkward fvck will get you much further.

I’m telling you from personal experience I’ve witnessed guys getting much better looking girls purely from their confidence and personality. Average confident outgoing male getting a 9. Me even being a bit jealous as my gf at the time was a 7. No status involved that guy worked construction. Stop making excuses.

 

[CornbreadFed]

I’m telling you from personal experience I’ve witnessed guys getting much better looking girls purely from their confidence and personality. Average confident outgoing male getting a 9. Me even being a bit jealous as my gf at the time was a 7. No status involved that guy worked construction. Stop making excuses.

I think we agree on sort of the same thing. My issue with mainstream black pill advice/nuave red pill is that they preach that women are dead set on a certain type of guy and if you do not fit the mold then you are screwed. Yes, height, money, and looks help, but there’s other things that women value that can get your foot in the door. For example, this girl might have a thing for guys that remind her of her father. You might not be 6ft tall, rich, or have hookups to the finest club in Miami, but you look like her father and she would likely say yes to your advances if you had the confidence and courage to do so. This is why every guy should do the best they can and approach women because you never know the outcome unless you try.

 

[Gamisch]

That would be a bitter pill to swallow and would lead to threads like this....

I built it, they didn't come

Hi guys, I've just recently discovered this site, but many of the concepts have been familiar to me for years, decades even. I'm not really about learning game, but I read the "book of Pook", and many of the concepts in that series of posts have been second nature to me for my whole life. I...

www.sosuave.net

When a man engages in big time self improvement and it doesn't affect his dating outcomes, that's a result that is psychologically damaging.

This is exactly what i said on the first page of this thread, a reference to the thread you've posted.

If you really wanted to just have a bunch of casual sex with crazy women, the best way to do this would be becoming a drug dealer or just having access to it lol. Not something I'd ever be interested in but it would work, women that have a drug issue will do just about anything to get it lol. Most escorts and prostitutes have drug issues, as do many party girls that aren't "professionals" lol.

This post shows me more about you than you'd like to admit. Again , a GIGS syndrome, where being a drugs dealer somehow provides you with tons of poosy. Newsflash, it doesn't. What you describe is a provider/ taker relationship. This happens on all levels of society. Maybe even more so on the higher levels, where beta men flaunt their money and happily trait money for attention.

I keep saying it brother , your threads should be about being a introvert with some good stats(physicallyand financiallyfor example) . How does an introvert presents himself as extrovert so he can close the gap more naturally?

Because yes, most men will self improve untill they get stuck at some piont. Women are complex at times, and if there was an actual one size fits all method we would all make use of it.

 

[sangheilios]

Where did I say anything about taking out $3million in loans? I said build a company to $3m in enterprise value and sell it as in start a business and work hard for 5 years until you build it to $3m in value and then sell it and FIRE. This is well within the reach of anyone who is willing to work hard and isn't an idiot. Running a business is all just problem solving and taking a series of calculated risks. You don't even need a creative idea... tons of me too businesses are just copycats of other existing businesses except they executed a certain aspect better and were able to gain market share that way.




This isn't true at all. You need to expand your network. Join some entrepreneurial groups or at least just make friends with a business owner. I'm in Vistage and MDS which are both great communities. You will find that most business owners came from middle or lower class backgrounds and started with very little then just worked really hard to build value. I know tons of guys from these groups in their 20's and 30's who had big exits and never need to work again in their lives if they don't want to.




I retired a couple of years ago after selling my company and haven't been bored since. I know lots of other young guys like myself who also had big exits and have been retired for several years and keep very busy with their social lives and hobbies. Most guys get obsessed with a hobby or sport, but the red pill ones like me spend a huge chunk of time just chasing women and reading forums like this. Keeps me pretty occupied lol. Also in your example it would be smarter to buy the house with a mortgage. Inflation rates are higher than mortgage interest rates so that essentially means your mortgage will have a negative nominal interest rate. I don't expect inflation to decline for another 5+ years because we still haven't even felt the effects of Russian and Ukraine supply chains going offline. We've basically been living off of reserves for many inputs for the past year.

I agree, I was just saying that you could literally have 0 debt at all and paying cash for a house would represent a small minority of your total net worth. If you were in a situation like this with 0 debt and had that kind of net worth aside from your primary residence you'd basically be all set and would have a very low cost of living.

With that said, I actually have been working on being able to semi retire early, originally my goal was 35 but I now don't have a specific time frame for that. I've also met some people in real life that were able to retire relatively early, like mid-late 40s, and they honestly sounded bored. Now, this is obviously not going to apply to everyone. I've actually made some changes and making the same monthly income now that I was with my previous gig and working about 10 hours per week less. I have way much more time on my hands now and while I do feel I could do more with it I actually enjoy the life i have now. My overall quality of life is much higher, I feel physically and mentally healthier not working so much, etc.

 

[sangheilios]

This is exactly what i said on the first page of this thread, a reference to the thread you've posted.


This post shows me more about you than you'd like to admit. Again , a GIGS syndrome, where being a drugs dealer somehow provides you with tons of poosy. Newsflash, it doesn't. What you describe is a provider/ taker relationship. This happens on all levels of society. Maybe even more so on the higher levels, where beta men flaunt their money and happily trait money for attention.

I keep saying it brother , your threads should be about being a introvert with some good stats(physicallyand financiallyfor example) . How does an introvert presents himself as extrovert so he can close the gap more naturally?

Because yes, most men will self improve untill they get stuck at some piont. Women are complex at times, and if there was an actual one size fits all method we would all make use of it.

Yo, wtf are you talking about? lol

 

[Gamisch]

Yo, wtf are you talking about? lol

Ask that question while you stand in front of a mirror bruh. You wanna complain and puke theory, but as soon as you get some pushback, your depth doesn't go further than " wtf you talking about " or " lol what do you mean ". Ever since i disagreed with you in a previous thread you are butt hurt.

Long story short; you and your threads complain too much, you're after circle jerk type of responses , and they never provide actual solutions. Ignorance is bliss, and this type of shallow and stupid response from you(again) tells me why you have the problems you do.

You like to advertise you're a big boy,but you act and talk like a man child. Just some though love that you're soft azz probably can't handle.

 

[sangheilios]

Ask that question while you stand in front of a mirror bruh. You wanna complain and puke theory, but as soon as you get some pushback, your depth doesn't go further than " wtf you talking about " or " lol what do you mean ". Ever since i disagreed with you in a previous thread you are butt hurt.

Long story short; you and your threads complain too much, you're after circle jerk type of responses , and they never provide actual solutions. Ignorance is bliss, and this type of shallow and stupid response from you(again) tells me why you have the problems you do.

You like to advertise you're a big boy,but you act and talk like a man child. Just some though love that you're soft azz probably can't handle.

Huh?

 

[devilkingx2]

Fitness- Every man should strive to be fit, active and healthy, no debate on this. However, telling a man to "hit the gym" does not mean success in the dating market will come his way. I believe that for men that are quite overweight and out of shape this is actually a fantastic plan that could help tremendously with their dating game. However, when we factor these men out and have more normal men I believe that pushing them to get heavily into gym/fitness is highly overrated. Most men just do not have the genetics to ever really stand out from others around them or look all that impressive. You can go to any gym and look at the regulars there that are semi-serious and you will see this for yourself. A huge issue is in today's world women are visually exposed to fit looking men on social media regularly. The thing is, most of these men don't even look like that in real life AND are also on steroids, so it's a complete illusion. I'm 6'4" 235-240 and one of the fittest and strongest guys at my gym, very active with hiking, etc. and I've had comments from some WOMEN about being fat, having a dad bod, etc. I've also had women point out an OBESE woman and tell me that is my league. If women are saying that to a man that is genetically well above average that says a lot. Some men may get super frustrated and not see the results they were hoping for and possibly start even taking steroids, news flash most guys it often makes them look far worse lol and you are just attracting attention from other men. Guys that also take this **** too far start obsessing over missed workouts, timing their meals, etc. What do you think a woman you are dating is going to think when you won't even take her out to dinner because it doesn't fit your macros lmfao?

The average American is like 5'9 200 pounds and 25% body fat or something like that. They could do with some diet and exercise.

If the average American was 5'9, 180lbs and 15% body fat then I would agree that going to the gym won't do much unless you live in there long enough to get an impressive 6 pack.

Money/career- Every man should strive to be successful but should not assume that it will lead to dating success. Let's be real, unless you are a celebrity, pro athlete or high level multi-multi millionaire nothing you can realistically do will ever impress a woman. Women only care about money when you are able to provide a lifestyle like something you see on TMZ or some **** like that lol. Mark the mechanic and Bill the engineer really aren't all that different with regard to their success in the dating market, with the exception of women who will ONLY date those with a degree lol. The thing is, in order to have any of this make a difference you'd have to dedicate a ton of your time and energy into your hustle where you literally have no social life and would be unavailable. You may now have money, but now your dating success is nonexistent because you work 60+ hours per week and are too tired for much of anything else and have 0 social life. Hell, you might even be able to land a woman but not be able to keep her around because you can't spend any time with her lol.

I agree with this a lot. There's no point in making or having a lot of money if you spend all your time and energy working instead of living life.

There are definitely benefits to reaching slightly above average income. You can't go clubbing or afford to go on more than one "real" date a week at minimum wage.

If you don't make truly high tier income the only girls you'll be able to truly impress are broke college students, food service/retail girls and girls from the ghetto. And even then only if they're HB6-7's who don't get hit on by rich guys.

Social skills/game- Unless you are a complete social retard that is not able to hold a conversation, this **** doesn't matter either. Very few men are going to have an elite level of charisma, a trait that is largely a characteristic that you have or don't. If you are heavily socially off, you should definitely work on this for sure. However, the vast majority of men do not fall into this category and it's not even worth considering.

I disagree strongly because tons of men actually are social retards. There's plenty of men that only know how to start a conversation with "hey" and "wyd" or that send **** pics or send daily good morning texts, etc.

There's plenty of men that can't approach on the street/in public/at a bar or club. There's plenty of men that can't approach groups of girls (this was literally me 2 or 3 years ago)

The major keys to dating success are all variables related to luck. It's all about just being fortunate enough to cross paths with a woman you find attractive, who also has some degree of interest in you, that is also single at that given space in time. However, there are many other factors involved that you have no control over. What if these basic things are checked off but she is moving toa new city in a couple months.....do you think she is going to put her life on hold for some guy she just met? Life isn't some **** like you see out of a romance chick flick lol. Hell, maybe you get her on a first date and it goes really well but then 2 days later she finds out her mom is in the hospital with a stroke.....do you think you will be on her list of priorities? Maybe you have been going on a couple dates but you have some quirks that she doesn't like. Hell, a really common issue is you going on a date or two but during this time she has been talking to another guy that checks off more boxes on her list, so she naturally chooses him over you. We aren't even factoring in if YOU as a man even still like this woman, any of these other variables could happen to you.

Here is the thing, self improvement does not mean that you will have success in the dating market. Your results in the dating market, or lack thereof, can often be the result of factors that are well outside of your control.

I agree with your overall point here but those examples are somewhat extreme. If a girl is moving away in months that's plenty of time to have sex with her and establish a plate/FWB in a city you can visit. If a girls mom is in the hospital she probably won't be any fun to date, that's a lot of baggage and drama for a second date.

I do agree that there's a lot of luck and important factors out of your control like race, height, geographic location, the job market, etc.

But most people will see the majority of the results they want by improving themselves (including their looks and game) and doing 100 approaches