Help! Possible Cluster B- Feeling Totally Lost

[jophil28]

The thought that BPD's are on a conscious 'revenge quest', 'hurting/destroying guys' being their premeditated objective...is a very naive thought.

How do you explain the numerous trails of wreckage that they inevitably create?
Mere accidental outcomes of their fears of closeness ?

These women are driven by opportunities to inflict damage within intimate relationships. It is how they feel powerful. They are cunning, manipulative and devious and seek out M/F relationships to unleash their rage...in may cases, covertly.
IF, as you claim, they were merely afraid of closeness, then they have the choice to simply leave the relationship when it develops to an uncomfortable stage.
Instead they engage in a well know cluster of destructive behaviors which include cheating, lying , causing endless conflicts without reason, breaking promises, verbal abuse, drug abuse use and so on..

Your PC explanation of their actions ignores the evidence.

Hateful people act in hateful ways.

 

[SmackinIsaiah]

I still have my doubts about her being BPD, I mean all of the evidence from the past certainly points to it, as well as actions that have occurred in the present.

From outsider's points of view, should I be questioning her having this affliction, or am I just blowing it up and looking for a scapegoat to ease the pain of run of the mill rejection?

 

[deuce42]

I dont accept the idea that its naive to suggest their actions can be premeditated. Its not naive. Yes at a deep psychological level it is about fear of abandonment and their response is often automotive, but they make choices about their actions. This issue of choosing to act on emotions is the part that a lot of people seem to ignore. A lot of us in society have feelings, needs and propensities. Most of our emotions are somewhat hampered in one way or another and you would be surprised at the amount of us in society that have one of the many personality disorders. When we choose to act upon those emotions this is another story.

For example, there is much evidence - I mean really good quality evidence from enough sources to agree to the legitimacy of the idea that in the case of some alcoholics and drug addicts, there can be a biological mental weaknesses to substance abuse. In many cases there has been clear evidence of a family biological history of alcoholism. But that being said, most people agree that alcoholics and drug addicts have a responsibility not to act upon their impulses, whether they come from biology or just a habit they formed. Now this is the very issue with BPD. They feel fear or abandonment, and then they choose to act. Perhaps in their early romantic lives they may have been unaware of what they were doing or why they went into autopilot and shut down the guy. I can accept this may have been subconcious. But I cannot accept that that they are always totally oblivious to what they have done, simply because they must get used to seeing the carnage they have created and pleas/agony of the every victim guy. As they have histories of doing this, they would have to start seeing the same response from men. Moreover, in my personal experience, most of their friends and families get tired of their behaviour and usually point out that its them thats the culprit or often take the guy's side. I have personally witnessed this friends/family non support of the BPD so many times. It's because the friends and family are usually victims of their selfish and psychotically unstable moods all the time and are usually sick and fed up of it. So in my round about way, I don't believe these ladies are unaware of their behaviour at all.

They are simply like a drug addict that acts on the impulse or craving for the drug. I am not suggesting its easy for addicts to kick their habits - I am sure its very hard, but likewise the BPD, whilst it may be hard not to act upon their BPD tendencies, has a responsibility not to hurt or use others. Most of them simply do make this choice. They are naturally just selfish in the way that Narcissistic Men are and act upon their selfish impulses. BPD is not a mental illness. Its a disorder of their personality. The culprits are aware of what they are doing. They simply lie to themselves because they cannot face the fact that they are being cruel and have done the wrong thing. They are aware but then act on their impulses. That's the difference.

 

[Die Hard]

How do you explain the numerous trails of wreckage that they inevitably create? Mere accidental outcomes?

I don't see what you're getting at. Just because all BPD's create trails of wreckage, doesn't mean they do so consciously... Just because all people yawn when they're tired, doesn't mean they do so consciously, right?

These women are driven by opportunities to inflict damage within intimate relationships. It is how they feel powerful. They are cunning, manipulative and devious.

It's a complex matter... BPD's do have an inclination towards feeling powerful over others and they use their cunning, deviousness and manipulation skills to satisfy this need. But when it comes to the situation where she has sucked a guy deep into her world, things become more complex. I'm not talking about a first encounter, I'm talking about the more advanced stage, where sort of a relationship has been established. The trails of wreckage and the destructive result of their behavior, only apply to this situation.

In this situation, the guy has developed feelings for her, he got emotionally drawn to her. At the same time, this also goes for the BPD! You know how her behavior becomes more extreme and more destructive the further the "relationship" develops? This is directly linked to the following factor: her emotional involvement. The more she becomes emotionally involved with you, the more "danger" she experiences (coz being emotionally involved makes her vulnerable): she'll experience "danger" more often and she'll experience it more extreme.

This is a dynamic... suppose it's your first date and you say something that makes her feel insecure. That you don't like fat women, for example... She's not fat, but since she's a nutjob, she THINKS she's fat and should look like one of those catwalk skeletons. So she'll relate your comment to herself, feel insecure and experience "danger". But at this point her emotional involvement with you isn't that high yet, so she'll react relatively normal and say "you shouldn't judge people just by their looks, blah blah". Just a subtle "defence" of her ego...

Weeks/months later, when the relationship has evolved and the two of you have become more emotionally involved, you might be watching tv on the couch together and make a harmless comment about some fat chick on tv. Suddenly, your BPD tells you you're an ******* and gets into one of her temper tantrums. "WTF?! Where did that came from?" you wonder... It's simply her feeling insecure again, coz the idiot thinks she's fat and relates your comment to herself. Only this time, the accompanying "danger" feeling is much stronger, coz she's more emotionally involved with you at this point. The chick might even stay silent and try to control the "danger" feeling. But it won't fade away, it keeps bugging her all night long, this feeling of insecurity that you caused with your comment... The next day, she has to let it out and suddenly acts totally cold and hostile towards you. Totally out of the blue!! At least, so it seems to you...

The moment you made a remark about some fat woman on tv, you triggered her crazy mind, her feelings of insecurity etc. All kinds of automatic links are being made in her mind "he doesn't like fat chicks --> I'm fat too! --> so he basically insulted me! --> he doesn't respect me! --> I should teach him a lesson! --> what will happen if he finds a chick who's not as fat as me? --> he'll leave me and I will be hurt!" etc. etc. etc. The "danger" feeling takes over, she freaks out and you'll be on the receiving end of her destructive behavior...

It's the dynamic of the moment... It's not like she consciously made a plan weeks/months ago, to lure you in and then destroy you emotionally because she enjoys doing that. She has simply become more emotionally involved with you over time, therefor more vulnerable, the feeling of "danger" gets triggered more easily and the resulting behavior is more extreme. In the end, the impact it has on you, is also more extreme... Not because that was her endgoal from the beginning, but just because that's what naturally follows from the situation.

IF, as you claim, they were merely afraid of closeness, then they have the choice to simply leave the relationship when it develops to an uncomfortable stage.
Instead they engage in a well know cluster of destructive behaviors .

They are not merely afraid of closeness. At the same time, they feel attracted to a person. Also, it is not simply a matter of reaching a certain "stage" in the relationship. Referring to what I explained above: It has more to do with the dynamic of the moment. One moment they feel attracted to you and enjoy your company, the next moment you say/do something that triggers their "danger" feeling and they push you away. Rinse and repeat...

In fact, that's the whole reason why their behavior is so destructive!! It's the back and forth, push and pull dynamic: giving you highs and making you feel happy, then giving you lows and making you feel unhappy. The situation becomes uncontrollable to you, you never know what you're gonna get, you never know how long your high will last and when the next low will crash down at you... You constantly live on the edge, you try to please her so the next low will be postponed as long as possible...then BAM! she hits you with her cold behavior again... But it's not her tactic, not her premeditated plan. It's just her mind switching from hot to cold over and over again. One moment you're siting on the couch romantically and she genuinely enjoys this. The next moment her insecurity gets triggered by some comment of yours, her mind goes into "danger" mode and she starts acting cold...

 

[Johnnyventana]

"Mostly, they are not aware of this conflict (as it is subconscious) and they don't even know why they act the way they do, their actions are more instinctively and automatically than consciously." Funny, because mine told me, "I pull away sometimes, because I know how I get."

They may not know why, but many do know something it up with them.

Also, it is not as simple as them too feeling close -- and thus then just leaving, and leaving you alone. The reason is because once you leave, they need you back. This is why: (per gettingbetter.com): Girlhood longing for love was associated with pain, so she's programmed to keep striving for that which cannot be satisfied. Each disruption of loving attention reactivates her core despair, so she settles for scraps of love, that echo her early conditioning. A lover who's more available or responsive, doesn't fit this paradigm--or inspire her passionate response.

The Borderline will punish/deride you for failing to love her well enough--but she'll push you away, the minute that you do. Quite literally, you're damned when you adore the Borderline, and damned when you don't! This is totally confounding, and leaves you with a sense of hopeless longing for that which cannot be satisfied. This lack of grounding (in love) is highly toxic to you.

In other words - you can not win. Ever.

That said. I do know that they plot. I just don't know if they know why they do it. Either way, the end result is the exact same. And it really doesn't matter if they know why or not. As Jophil said, "...they engage in a well know cluster of destructive behaviors which include cheating, lying , causing endless conflicts without reason, breaking promises, verbal abuse, drug abuse use and so on.."

All very bad things.

BTW this is so dead on: "The next day, she has to let it out and suddenly acts totally cold and hostile towards you. Totally out of the blue!! At least, so it seems to you..." It would be so awesome if they explained wtf was going on and why - yet they never do. They just rage like freaks.

 

[deuce42]

BPD is a lot like narcissism in men. In fact both personality types are part of the "cluster B" ambit. But I can almost bet that in web forums like this one where women discuss men, when the subject of narcissistic guys come up, I can almost bet that none of the female members on those forms are making excuses for the mans appalling behaviour on the basis that those men are not conscious of what they are doing.

As I have tried to indicate, BPD women may have a propensity to freak out, but they choose to act on it.

 

[jophil28]

I don't see what you're getting at. Just because all BPD's create trails of wreckage, doesn't mean they do so consciously...
...

It matters little whether they do so consciously or otherwise. They are still responsible for their behavior.
BPDs create trails of emotional wreckage by displacing their ancient rage and hatred, and fears of abandonment, onto their current love interest..
It is inconceivable that they are unaware of their repetitive actions and the subsequent harm that they cause - over and over.
In fact, my observations are that they actually relish the turmoil they create in intimate relationships.

 

[jophil28]

I think their emotions span from mild uneasiness to sociopathic delight at your suffering. Mine knew EXACTLY what she was doing( I know because she TOLD me) and was totally indifferent to it. They are very much like drug addicts in that they have a bottomless pit of need that must be fulfilled at any cost.

I agree. Well said.

 

[Tazman]

My problem with all of this is that I guarantee no guy here thinks about an unattractive BPD woman. If you didn't want to have sex with these women you'd probably get a restraining order against them. How is it any different than all the usual stuff women do to f-ck with your head?

You either put up with it or you don't. They don't have magical powers that force you to stay with them. It's the sex, that's the dilemma.

 

[GameOfNoGame]

I agree. Well said.

But that's just it. you speak of absolutes but surely there are levels of severity in their disorder so we can't make sweeping generalizations in how to deal with them. Which also brings me to what Tazman said. I have another friend who admitted to me she was diagnosed with BPD and most of the time she's a really sweet girl but then other times things just sort of fall apart for her. I'm not particularly attracted to her but I still care about her, am happy for her when she's doing well, worry about her welfare when she's not doing well & would still try to help if I could because she doesn't really hurt people, she just acts erratically when it kicks in due to various factors.

 

[Johnnyventana]

But that's just it. you speak of absolutes but surely there are levels of severity in their disorder so we can't make sweeping generalizations in how to deal with them. Which also brings me to what Tazman said. I have another friend who admitted to me she was diagnosed with BPD and most of the time she's a really sweet girl but then other times things just sort of fall apart for her

Yes. They are not nearly as bad when they don't have feelings for you. They can even seem normal. You are missing the part (huge part) where when they have feelings for you that "other times things just sort of fall apart for her" becomes mostly the norm. It is a completely different ballgame when they feel something. It's hard to explain, unless you have experienced it.

 

[Atom Smasher]

As I mentioned, I just broke up with one, and I noticed with her that it was utterly impossible to get her to see her own behavior. I'm absolutely convinced that she is blind to it. It's a case of, she should recognize it, but she can't.

As far as I can tell, a BPD sometimes detaches from reality and I don't think that is something that is intentional or can be helped. I used to be stunned by the level of her delusions. Her feelings (fears and insecurities) formed her reality at times and rational thought simply wasn't possible for her.

It still seems to me that the growing-up process was a time when she could have chosen a better path, but didn't, and now the genie is out of the bottle and she has lost all perspective and at this point can't identify the problem and therefore can't address it. She relied on looks and her "princess" mentality to get her through life and she fell apart when she came up against me, the first man who ever called her out on her sh!t.

 

[Burroughs]

But I can almost bet that in web forums like this one where women discuss men, when the subject of narcissistic guys come up, I can almost bet that none of the female members on those forms are making excuses for the mans appalling behaviour on the basis that those men are not conscious of what they are doing.
.

Very crucial point.

And this is the #1 strength of women...THEIR ABILITY TO TRANSMUTE THIER FEELINGS TO HATE.

HATE is pure power, simple and plain. Once you have kindled any sort of hate in your female companion your best bet is to walk and never look back. Better yet run.

NO rationalizations, no sympathy, no freudian analysis...that is not your job. You are their to fvck her not give her therapy.

 

[GameOfNoGame]

Very crucial point.

And this is the #1 strength of women...THEIR ABILITY TO TRANSMUTE THIER FEELINGS TO HATE.

HATE is pure power, simple and plain. Once you have kindled any sort of hate in your female companion your best bet is to walk and never look back. Better yet run.

NO rationalizations, no sympathy, no freudian analysis...that is not your job. You are their to fvck her not give her therapy.

Easy there Palpatine,
Now that's not true. Go to any website for women who were in relationships with male cluster B's and you will see countless threads of them discussing how they were suckered back into their abusive relationships time & again out of sympathy for their abuser's problems.

And hate isn't so powerful, it's still investing a lot of energy into someone and you will see people even here say that it's better for a girl to hate you than it is for her to feel indifferent to you. Because when someone feels anything it can be channeled advantegously.

Indifference, that's the real danger and why the ones who are more sociopathic are dangerous. However, I have my own version of indifference - forgiveness. There is no revenge more complete than forgiveness so now I neither love nor hate my cluster B ex anymore.

That being said, I do want to meet someone whom I enjoy understanding and caring for, accepting that it may not always be easy either but that they deserve it. Burroughs, if you just want a *** dumpster to blow your load in and nothing more, may I suggest you just go get a prostitute?

 

[deuce42]

I have a question for you guys. Of your ex BPD's, were they all very childlike? Mine was. Extremely. I mean her response to situations and actions was sometimes like a child, even in her speech. Then she would become a mature sophisticated, elegant woman again, but often as she was speaking it was as if the child was back in her voice. I say this because I have been told many a time that BPD's have the emotional level of a child. They never learn adult patters of emotional behaviour. In fact for a girl in her mid thirties she looked and acted very differently. Clearly that was part of her charm, because it was like dating a college party girl.

I am hoping never to put myself through the pain I went through before and wonder if this child like demeanour is a way of spotting the next one that hits on me at a bar before I get sucked in. I mean really, I just want to learn as much as I can so I never do it again.

 

[Jitterbug]

I don't care if she is conscious of her harmful ways or not, crazy and dangerous is crazy and dangerous. Get the hell away from her!

I have a question for you guys. Of your ex BPD's, were they all very childlike? Mine was.

Mine was. Part of her charm, which set her apart from the other stiff feminist-brainwashed chicks I was spinning at the time.

After 8 weeks, her dark side revealed itself. Towards the end of the "honeymoon period" she did ask me a lot of nonsense questions that I gave equally nonsense answers to amuse myself, but now I realised they all pointed towards her testing how far I got sucked into her web.

I put up with 2 months of complete headfvck before listening to my father and bolting.

 

[deuce42]

Alright Jitterbug, I can't help myself here. Tell me she wasn't in Sydney and its not the same freak I was with. She's not a writer by any chance??? Just joking, not trying to be too personal, it just scares me how similar. You story is almost as identical to mine....

 

[Jitterbug]

Alright Jitterbug, I can't help myself here. Tell me she wasn't in Sydney and its not the same freak I was with. She's not a writer by any chance??? Just joking, not trying to be too personal, it just scares me how similar. You story is almost as identical to mine....

They're all made from the same factory.

Mine's a "simple" country girl now living in a big city, working random meaningless jobs.

 

[5string]

I have a question for you guys. Of your ex BPD's, were they all very childlike? Mine was. Extremely. I mean her response to situations and actions was sometimes like a child, even in her speech. Then she would become a mature sophisticated, elegant woman again, but often as she was speaking it was as if the child was back in her voice. I say this because I have been told many a time that BPD's have the emotional level of a child. They never learn adult patters of emotional behaviour. In fact for a girl in her mid thirties she looked and acted very differently. Clearly that was part of her charm, because it was like dating a college party girl.

I am hoping never to put myself through the pain I went through before and wonder if this child like demeanour is a way of spotting the next one that hits on me at a bar before I get sucked in. I mean really, I just want to learn as much as I can so I never do it again.

Yes is the answer. They talk as if they are 14 or 15 years old and sound like it. Extremely feminine. Most are "girly girls". Ask anyone here who has encountered one. It's all part of the bait they put on the emotional hook. This coupled with the amazing sex makes many men powerless not to take a bite.

Then there is the mirroring. They truly are shapeshifters as someone said above. BPD's will assume your very personality, mirror it back to you, and you will become emotionally attached and fall in love with yourself.

It's emotional black magic.

 

[Burroughs]

Go to any website for women who were in relationships with male cluster B's and you will see countless threads of them discussing how they were suckered back into their abusive relationships time & again out of sympathy for their abuser's problems.

That's what the women say...but what women SAY and why they DO WHAT THEY DO is vastly different, try absorbing that first before spouting off like a low rent buddhist.

Women are 'suckered' back into relationships with cluster b men because oftentimes the cluster b man has massive social proof, wealth, good looks. Cluster b men are the wall street hedge fund managers, and hollywood producers who are the top tier, wealth wise of our society. In the woman's world he is the prize just like the hot bodied 9+ is our prize.