Help! Possible Cluster B- Feeling Totally Lost

[Burroughs]

One of the real problems with Cluster B's - which I feel a lot of people never acknowledge or seem to gloss over a bit- is that the same aspects that make the Cluster B a Cluster B, are also some of the most seductive and magnetic aspects of their personalities.

Cheers

Very important point.

I travel in two distinct circles. One my scientific circle. I am a biologist/entrepreneur by education. Two my music circle. In college I started an electronic music group in the vein of Nine Inch Nails, Tool. We did well and almost got signed several times...still might.

My music circle is PACKED with BPD headcases....HB 9+s who will cut out your heart with a plastic knife and feast on it, my daughter's mother fits this to perfection. The only thing that saved me was I have a low tolerance for BULLSH#@ no matter how hot you are if you start fvcking with me emotionally, I'll give you one week AT THE MOST...And then I'm done with you.

I have sympathy for anyone who comes in contact with one of these vampires. Strong, aggressive action is required to break free. It takes a tough man to break the addiction of a hot body with an outgoing personality.

 

[GameOfNoGame]

I'm starting to find it concerning just how many people here have dealt with women who clearly act in a disturbed manner. Is it that we're all interacting with the same relatively few women who just cause pain and confusion with the dozens of people anyone would meet or is it really such an epidemic of that many women growing up in environments of abuse and dyfunction that is perpetuating itself?

If it's the former, perhaps there should be a regristry for these people like sex offender because in a sense, they are and unlike sex offenders they can't actually be cured. If it's the latter then perhaps more should be done to identify unhealthy environments for children and have them removed before they become these monesters.

 

[jophil28]

The only thing that saved me was I have a low tolerance for BULLSH#@ no matter how hot you are if you start fvcking with me emotionally, I'll give you one week AT THE MOST...And then I'm done with you.

And that is the way to handle one of those creatures.

I frequently shake my head at some of the ill-informed advice offered to men who post here after tangling with a probable BPD/HPD -
" Keep her as a FB only"
" Go silent and ignore her for a few days"
" Don't catch feelings "

These women cannot be "managed" into a functional relationship ...ever.
They need to be dumped and abandoned at the first sign of significant disrespect..

 

[GameOfNoGame]

And that is the way to handle one of those creatures.

I frequently shake my head at some of the ill-informed advice offered to men who post here after tangling with a probable BPD/HPD -
" Keep her as a FB only"
" Go silent and ignore her for a few days"
" Don't catch feelings "

These women cannot be "managed" into a functional relationship ...ever.
They need to be dumped and abandoned at the first sign of significant disrespect..

Really Jo' there's nothing which can be done for them? Even as a friend who's willing to try & encourage them to do the right thing and leads by example? They may do really crappy things but they are people and it's heartbreaking to consider that they'll suffer for the rest of their lives with no real connections to another because they have mental illness. I know I said that they cannot be cured but I still wonder if they can't be socialized.

 

[GameOfNoGame]

Aw, that's really sad. I mean I wasn't at my best either once things started to go wrong with my own cluster B. At first I showed her forgiveness and when she immediately turned around and betrayed me again I got pretty angry but all I wanted was an explaination. When she came around again I felt sorry that whatever it was that made her do these things meant she had no real friends. The person I had spent so much time laughing & sharing with was alienated from everybody.

I kept trying but she kept doing baffling things. I bought her a book on BPD so she could read a bit about what's going on inside her and realize that she's not alone, that people want to understand. I didn't think it makes her happy, she just doesn't think before acting despite being a really intelligent girl. I even told her how I had been brought to tears with worry just because I didn't know what else would get through to her. She always seemed contrite when she came around yet would then continue her behaviours.

At one point it got so bad that I actually lost my temper and called her to threaten that if she didn't stop jerking me around when I'd never done anything bad to her that I just might to show her why even if we don't feel like it, we have to show people basic respect. I slept on it and decided this was wrong so immediately apologized but explained that her behaviour was still unacceptible to me. It floundered a bit more with me getting flustered when she'd suddenly start ignoring me and I basically gave up.

Sure, not my proudest period but I am proud of certain aspects of it. I am proud that I did everything I could for someone cared about even if at times it cost me my pride in other areas. I am proud that though she made me very upset, I never took my frustrations out on her like other people have and I would be disappointed if that somewhere within her she didn't understand the strength it took me to do those things when no one else was willing but saw it as my being a chump.

I'm not a chump, a chump is someone who would hit a woman. A chump is someone would give up at the first sign of difficulty and it took me a long time to get over the feelings of failure that there's just nothing I could do for her when clearly I was the best thing that had ever happened to her. So while I don't and won't just ignore her when she comes around, neither do I particularly concern myself anymore with what's going on when she's gone. But that doesn't mean I don't wish she could be ok.

 

[jophil28]

Really Jo' there's nothing which can be done for them? Even as a friend who's willing to try & encourage them to do the right thing and leads by example? They may do really crappy things but they are people and it's heartbreaking to consider that they'll suffer for the rest of their lives with no real connections to another because they have mental illness. I know I said that they cannot be cured but I still wonder if they can't be socialized.

My comments were directed at men who were/are struggling in an intimate relationship with a Cluster B .

Secondly, I have little sympathy for the belief that BPD/HPDs are " mentally ill and can't help themselves '.
They know exactly what they are doing.
Observe their behavior in the first two months of an LTR, it is uber sweet, feminine and sexually compliant - they are so eager to please. THis is a carefully crafted performance designed to draw men into their web.
And then when they know that you are "in" , they switch across into playing out their favorite games of psychological warfare.

G.ON.G, why would you want to be just "friends" with a woman who conducts herself like that ?

 

[Die Hard]

Jophil, they are mentally ill... And they also cannot help themselves, as their behavior is automated and they can't control it, even if their common sense tells them they should change their behavior.

Many women get goosebumps, scream out loud and behave totally irrational when they see a mouse walking through the kitchen. Doesn't matter whether they realize the animal is harmless, they will freak out anyway, they can't control their behavior. It's the same principle...

The reason it's difficult to have sympathy for the thought "they are mentally ill and can't help themselves", is because it's kinda disarming. If a person can't help his behavior, it's 'not fair' to hold him accountable for his actions, right? It becomes harder to be angry at him too... The guy from "Of mice and men" comes to mind...

Personally, I've had a lot of trouble trying to handle this contradiction in the past. Not anymore, though It's just a matter of survival, it's her or me... I don't care whether she can or can't help herself, whether she can or can't control her behavior. If my well-being is being threatened by another person, that person is going down. No sympathy, no holding back.

If killing another person is what it takes for you to survive, you will do so. Anyway, I would... Doesn't matter if that other person is a very kind, sweet old lady who really doesn't deserve it. I'd blow her brains out with a shotgun if that's what it takes for me to survive, even though it's not fair, she didn't do anything to deserve it etc. It's her or me, simple as that.

Same thing applies to BPD's. I know they can't help themselves and their behavior, I know their condition and their personality are purely a result of childhood trauma, they are victims of abusive parents (which I can relate to very much, since I'm one myself) and their horrible behavior is really just a result, a symptom of their suffering... but I don't give a rat's ass!! They will eat you alive unless you defend yourself! So defend myself I will...no matter what it takes! Serial killers often just became what they are because there parents beat them up, locked them up in a closet all day long, fvcked them in the ass, etc. etc. But when a serial killer tries to kidnap me and skin me alive, you bet I kill that motherfvcker first chance I get. No sympathy at all...

I've had extensive experience with BPD's and I've learned that whenever one of these creatures got me in her emotional clutches, there was only one way to safe myself: adopt a "kill or be killed" attitude.

Like I said to SmackinIsaiah in my earlier post: She is the enemy. When you allow yourself to have even the smallest bit of sympathy for her, you will not be able to break loose from her clutches.

 

[GameOfNoGame]

Yes, it's my understanding that with these cluster B types psychologies that they became the way they because they have sort of stunted defense mechanisms. They get by on charm, lies and tantrums like a small child. They're desperate for the approval they were denied as children (and this probably relates to their promiscuity) so they use superficial charm to obtain it where ever possible and lies to maintain it as long as they can.

Then also due to their abused past it's only a matter of time before an anxiety grows within as in their experience anyone they cared for & acted like they cared about them only ended up ultimately hurting them. So they reach a point where they essentially have a panic attack & throw a tantrum & these tantrums are to exert a sense of control over their lives where they otherwise feel a profound sense of powerlessness always.

The tantrums aren't always emotional outbursts, often they're just an extreme level of passive aggression which result in those whom they are pulling their stunts on to become angry & hurting or abandoning the Cluster B. This reaction thus justifies their behaviour in the mind of the Cluster B because of their victim mentality. Oh they really believe it too & that's why they often use pity plays but it's a vicious cycle they keep acting out.

So why would I want to be friends with someone like this? Several reasons. Though they cause trouble & do get a rush from it it's more a sense of relief than happiness, like a drug addict getting their methadone. We all have problems and what if when we needed others' understanding everyone just threw up their hands in disgust? I'd probably be dead & I can't accept that someone doesn't need a friend even if their in a padded cell.

Besides, when things are good, they're great. it's really nice to talk to a girl who actually has interests aside from pop music, reality TV & shoes but when things are bad I am exerting my power by demonstrating that if they want to make me justify their behaviour by retaliating or expressing that they are worthless, they can't, they can't make me. She has taken me to a breaking point but I never snapped because I have fortitude.

And now that I'm educated on the subject, I don't think she could get to me at all anymore.

 

[deuce42]

I cannot and will not accept this diatribe about Cluster B's being mentally ill and not being able to control their behaviour. This is simply garbage. I mean it simply is and it's an insult to people whom suffer legitimate mental illness and their families. Cluster B is merely a personality disorder that means women who fit into this category will display certain types of feelings. If they choose to act on those feelings, they are simply selfish witches. In reality, Cluster B's simply are in control of their behavour, and their manipulative ways are highly treatable by actually taking responsibility for their habits of acting on their feelings. Their is also a therapy infrastructure available to these women in most communities to assist them to practice or get into the habit of taking responsibility for this personality problem, in much the same way that AA provides an infrastructure and support for alcoholics to take control of their drinking problems.

The Cluster B personalty type is just inherently selfish, has little regard for other people's feelings, and case studies on these women by most sources I have ever read on this subject demonstrate that they simply choose to act on their selfish feelings because their need to satisfy their low self esteem is far more important to them than the damage they cause people around them. They basically dislike themselves so much inside that they are desperate to feed their insecurities. To put it simply, they will manipulate anybody they can, and are therefore dangerous people to be around.

By way of an anecdote to demonstrate my point, schizophrenics can be dangerous people to be around too, but i accept that these are people with a legitimate and very sad mental illness. I accept that their's is a medical condition and can only feel for them and accept that their behaviours, whilst sometimes very dangerous, are not intentional nor can they control the delusions that occur in their heads. Schizophrenics I imagine don't wake up in the morning and think of ways to get what they want out of life and from people and do not care what happens to their victims. For that matter, bipolars are mentally ill people as well during their manic stages. Manic episodes are a legitimate medical problem that some 80 years of psychiatry has only been able to ever treat with medication. Most bipolars don't usually even realise when they are manic and just simply think things are great. The fact that they are walking down the street naked and handing out hundred dollar bills to strangers is often something they are unaware of during their manics states. I would not begrudge these people the right of sympathy and can only imagine how humiliating it must be when they come out of these states and realise what they have done.

Cluster B's by contrast are simply not mentally ill people. Let's eradicate this untruth. They are perfectly sane, intelligent women whom are perfectly aware of their behaviour, but their need to pander to their low self esteem issues will mean they usually CHOOSE to behave the way they do, even when they are perfectly aware of what they are doing and how hurtful they can be. They simply dont care about the fact they may hurt others. They would rather feed their own insecurities than cater to someone elses needs. They are never oblivious or unaware of their actions. I can only liken it to people committing crimes. Sometimes sane people commit crimes but they are usually aware of committing a crime and decide to take a chance on the basis they may not get caught. They act upon the wish or request their brain asks for.

 

[Johnnyventana]

This is why you can't win. Period. "When their intense craving for love is met, painful sensations they've come to interpret as loving feelings, evaporate. At this point, the Borderline feels bored or annoyed, and pushes away. With healthy/whole partners who need continuity of loving feelings, the Borderline feels emotional claustrophobia, and is compelled to disrupt any episodes of genuine intimacy between them." http://GettinBetter.com/anycost.html Push/pull rinse/repeat.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Being that I just broke up with one, I've been pondering a lot on whether they can help it or not.

This one would switch from a semblance of sanity to complete insanity at the flip of a switch. In insane mode she would actually make up an alternate reality and accuse me of the most bizarre things.

Perhaps they can help it while the habits are forming, but they keep on getting away with it until it becomes so ingrained that this way of behaving becomes something they can't escape, nor do they even recognize it anymore.

It can be chilling right down to the bone to see a woman descend into BPD behavior.

 

[jophil28]

It can be chilling right down to the bone to see a woman descend into BPD behavior.

It can be even more chilling to watch a man fall under the spell of a BPD woman who is a master at "acting" as if she is in love.
The most tragic part of all is his continued and often frantic attempts to "stabilize" the relationship after she starts her infamous "go away until I want you back" behavior at about two months in..

 

[jophil28]

I am on the fence about whether they can truly control themselves or not.

I am convinced that they know exactly what they are doing -they are full of rage and hatred towards men (father) and their sole objective in adult intimate relationships is to harm and even destroy the guy who is gullible enough to buy their presentation.
It may be hard to believe that their intent is malevolent, but how else do we explain the trails of wreckage that they create.

It is no random occurence that BPD women choose intimate relationships to unleash their evil. This offers them the opportunities to work their savagery in the most vulnerable of human conditions...Intimate love.

It is curious that they act so similarly too -- is it pure coincidence they they all seem to be in control of their behavior so that they can shape and regulate their behavior to mimic a 'women in love' for the first 6-8weeks, and then turn into a bewildering emotional time bomb.

 

[konmai]

What in the world is a cluster-B woman exactly? Sounds bad.

 

[GameOfNoGame]

I've heard the 6-8 week thing a lot too. What makes it about that time that makes it have that shelf life? At the risk of sounding awful maybe it has to do with the cycles. That if invested enough in a new situation the brain chemistry can supress the reaction that the flood of homones they would otherwise have if they did have that much interest in someone at first. But that initial rush normalizes enough by the second month to let their usual inclinations take hold? Then they hoover when it starts to build again and their thoughts go back to how you fulfilled them somehow before? Ya ok I know nothing about this sort of thing but how does that sound to people?

 

[deuce42]

Yes the 6-8 weeks is an uncanny similarity with so many cases. Perhaps it is somewhat related to their hormone cycle as suggested above. It seems too co-incidental that its so often the same time frame.

There is only one question that has bewildered me: - by nature Cluster B's are highly promiscuous women, almost all cheat on their partners and during the course of their lives may have hit on literally multiples of guys. But are their choices of victims completely irrelevant? This is the question that intrigues me.

By this I mean, most victims are faced with a horrible nagging question called "was it all just lies and did she feel nothing for me at all? " I often wonder about this. Are Cluster B's completely undiscerning and are the victims they flirt with or seduce merely just any guy that comes their way?

I actually don't think they are. I actually think Cluster B's actively seek out guys that they feel are high value. It's part of their low self esteem. It is getting guys that in their brain are a prize which makes them feel validated and desireable. Sure once they get those guys they are instantly bored and have lost all interest in them, but I actually think in a funny way the victim is almost "stamped" or "identified" by them as a bit of catch or of high value for them to make the effort. I really do. My thinking is on the basis that these women are often reasonably attractive women themselves for different reasons, and are experienced enough to know they can hit on a guy and almost always get him. I say this because most guys will take up the offer if an HB6 or above flirts with and hits on them. So for these women there is pretty much a guarantee they will get their target if they put enough effort into it. So why do they choose certain guys out of all of the guys that pass through their lives? Yes it may be that the choice of guys is just a random hit but I dont think this is the case.

In a funny way, if there is thing good that a victim can take away, it may be that they have been cited as a pretty good catch.

Just my view

 

[jophil28]

- by nature Cluster B's are highly promiscuous women, almost all cheat on their partners..
I actually think Cluster B's actively seek out guys that they feel are high value. It's part of their low self esteem. It is getting guys that in their brain are a prize which makes them feel validated and desireable. Sure once they get those guys they are instantly bored and have lost all interest in them..

In my opinion, BPD women do indeed seek guys whom they perceive as high value ( to feed their eggshell frail egos).
To a BPD woman the whole purpose of dating a guy is not to progess into a relationship which is mutually satisying, but rather to entice a man into falling under her spell. It follows then that the more attractive the guy,the greater sense of satisfaction and accomplishment she feels to fill that bottomless pit of need inside her.
However unlike a normal woman who seeks to further deepen her connection with him , the BPD begns to dislike the guy for falling for her. His presence and expections start to feel like suffocation to her...after all she is in this solely for herself.
Her self-loathing now surfaces and interprets his attraction and devotion to her as despicable - after all what kind of guy falls for such a loathsome creature as she believes that she really is. It is fitting then that he should be treated like the awful chump that she now believes that he really is. Any man who loves her needs to be emotionally punished for making such a foolish choice to fall in love with her.

This is when the mindfvcks begain in earnest, and this is when her behavior caroms almost daily from an adoring girlfriend to a hateful callous bYtch.
Of course her sense of power over him is now driving her actions and so the downward spiral of hate and malice continues while he frantically attempts to stabilize the relationship...
She is ready to leave the relationship only when she has inflicted serious damage.

Those of us who have had this experience knows how it ends.

 

[deuce42]

However unlike a normal woman who seeks to further deepen her connection with him , the BPD begns to dislike the guy for falling for her. His presence and expections start to feel like suffocation to her...after all she is in this solely for herself.

Yep, totally believe this is the very crux of these smiling assassins.

 

[DMEDFISIK]

BLOCK HER OUT OF YOUR LIFE. DON'T contact her and quickly extinguish any reasons or mechanisms that make you contact her. This is what has helped me and is continuing to help me. Getting in touch in any way tends get in the way of your emotional progress. These kind of girls are like radioactive materials. They should be kept as far away as possible till they've decayed and can have no harm on you. In fact, continuous avoidance is best.

Just move on. You'll be much better for it. As someone said on this thread "Satan cannot be socialized." Run for dear life. You'll look back on this and be thankful.

 

[Die Hard]

It may be hard to believe that their intent is malevolent, but how else do we explain the trails of wreckage that they create.

Their intent is not malevolent, it is to sustain themselves. They won't allow themselves to develop feelings for a man and get in a vulnerable position. Therefor, they start 'pushing him away', so he can't get close to her feelings and she will remain 'safe' from him. On the other hand, they crave love... This creates a conflict: a part of them wants to let him inside, give him access to her heart and her emotions. Another part of them is too afraid to get hurt and will push him away.

This subconscious conflict controls her behavior. Mostly, they are not aware of this conflict (as it is subconscious) and they don't even know why they act the way they do, their actions are more instinctively and automatically than consciously. The results of their behavior are devastating for the guy on the receiving end of it... but this devastation is more of a byproduct of their automated behavior, as opposed to the idea that they consciously behave like this with the devastation as a conscious goal for them to achieve.

The thought that BPD's are on a conscious 'revenge quest', 'hurting/destroying guys' being their premeditated objective...is a very naive thought.