Mixed Signals But Consistent Lays. High IL or Low IL?

[SW15]

Men who get very skilled at the game have to learn when to drop the games for something worthwhile, because at the end of the day most men (yes even players) desire a meaningful relationship.

Most men desire to pair bond at some point in life so it's difficult to be a player forever. Pair bonding can take on different forms. I have noticed men start to struggle with a lifestyle centered around casual sex and short term relationship at ages 35+.

There are still elements of "game" needed in order to retain relationships. Elements of looks, money, status, and personality are not only important in initially attracting a woman, but are also relevant in retain relationships.

Many men lose frame as relationships go on and start to show more beta male, blue pill ideology type behaviors. There's a concept called beta-ization by 1,000 concessions. Rich Cooper has talked about it.

I have seen beta-ization in long term relationships. I have a good friend who has a triple digit notch count. He did some things right to get that triple digit notch count. Right now, he's a married man who tip toes around his wife and has no masculine frame. These things happen.

There are alpha/sigma men who struggle with monogamy as well. This comes from having a lot of sexual variety over time. Neil Strauss experienced this and other men deep in the seduction lifestyle experience it.

Beta males are better suited for longer term monogamy in the sense that they have less of a desire for sexual variety. They won't pursue sex outside the primary relationship and they also won't have women giving them strong IOIs for another sexual option. That can help them stay faithful in an LTR. In other ways, betas struggles in monogamous LTRs due to a weak frame that fails to keep women attracted for the longer term.

If she likes you she will say yes and be agreeable. Then you proceed from there.

The level of agreeableness that this woman is showing is debatable. It's a gray area.

She's being distant yet eventually she will agree to show up in person. At a minimum, she is making it more difficult for @jamesfromhouston to have sex with her.

This isn't helped by asynchronous text-based communication. In an earlier era, a woman could act the same way in avoiding phone calls in the landline era and pre-smartphone cell phone era.

And if she is responding by investing in you? Well this could be a great interaction that could develop legs.

The statement is true in general but less likely to be true given this poster's history with women.

 

[jamesfromhouston]

Hey everyone. Thank you all so much for the input. I really appreciate it.

This thread really took off and the opinions have helped me a great deal over the past few days in processing my own thoughts and my course of action.

An update to the situation:

Since she had been giving mixed signals, I decided to just turn my focus on another plate of mine.

This other plate has much higher IL than this mixed signals girl (but maybe a bit too high) she bombards me with messages (sometimes double texting) and is proactively DTF. Like many of you said, she is really easy in terms of our interaction. No mixed signals. Straight up just really into me. Asking me out all the time. We hooked up in the mean time. There is no ambiguity with this girl but it's funny because despite the transparency of it, the mixed signals plate had been on the back of my mind. Mostly just me wondering what's up with all that. (This shows that the whole mixed signals game can be quite effective on some men, more on this below).

Anyway after I dropped the mixed signals plate. 0 interaction and attention from me. She started to throw breadcrumbs my way (most of which I ignored) including commenting on my recent Facebook updates, sending me a random song on Spotify, sharing some funny memes with me, etc. Not much response from me. Because I've given up on such a confusing girl. After a long bout of withdrawal. She eventually messaged me to ask me if I was mad at her. I just said no. I then went to a new boxing class and she took that opportunity to ask me again if I was mad at her and tried to explain herself. I said I wasn't I've just been busy and truly I have been very busy with all the life activities.

Taking into account what some of you have said, compliance/agreeableness = everything I need to know (and also reminding myself this is just a plate, I had nothing to lose) and I just said "Anyway busy week but I'm planning to chill at home tonight, want to join?" She said "Yes I would love to" immediately.

Anyway she came over to my place, we had hot freaky sex. Things were great. In person as usual, I don't doubt she has high IL for me. After sex, we smoked up and chatted. And during those moments, I felt some strong LTR vibes as in maybe she wants to push for one with me. Not that the LTR conversation has come up yet but I am sure that's on her mind. I expect she will back off a bit again for awhile, do some weird confusing thing until the next time I ask her out. It's a pattern.

My own thoughts:

I don't doubt that this plate has high IL for me. In retrospect, I think perhaps she is engaging in some mind game. You see, I've met another woman like this a year ago. I even started a thread about it back then because I honestly don't meet these types often and they confuse me but I believe there are a certain type of high IL women that will use mixed signals to get you to invest more. I am talking about delayed messages, short messages, withheld communication, hot and cold behavior. They will do things to confuse you. But if they're into you then consistently over time you will come to realize that the interaction always goes your way if you step back far enough and have the resilience to weather through the games. That girl I met a year back ultimately became a stalker, her IL for me was through the roof and all the mixed signals I had experienced back in the early stages were really just part of her tactics to get me hooked. Now I am not saying that this plate is exactly the same. I could be wrong but this is just my conclusion at this point.

Given that this plate is very beautiful, it isn't inconceivable that she is branching around with other men as some of you suggested. That could also very well be it and why she did this. But the fact that she delayed her responses rather than just tell me outright she is unavailable after 24 hours, sounds gamey to me, especially how she freaked out immediately after when I withdrew. But what some of you said really hit it on the nail for me, to answer some of you, I still see her as a plate. I mean we have only just met not long ago, it's too early to think about anything else. I need to remind myself that this is still just the early stages, I've got to be more cool and level headed, treat a plate like a plate, focus on the big picture and judge her by her actions.

Simple Takeaway:

Gauging IL = Focus on their actions and consistency over time. Focus on their compliance and agreeableness.

Confusing IL = Focus on your rotation and other plates if all else fails and they just make it too confusing for you. Move on if necessary.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

As long as she invests more than you and you don't make her any promises, you can wait a little longer for her to commit more to the 'relationship' you want to have with her.

 

[Sega Genesis]

Appreciate the update @ James.

I am wondering though, re your current plate, when you pushed back and essentially stopped making effort, she came running.

Kept asking if you were mad at her and when you rather casually told her you had a busy week but chilling at home, would she like to join, she jumped at the chance, went to yours and you had hot freaky sex.

To me, what your pushing back accomplished was you triggered her anxiety and insecurities. Thus, she sought your reassurance, approval and validation and began chasing to alleviate her anxiety.

My question is, is this a demonstration of high interest? Or a woman who feels anxious and insecure and will do anything to alleviate it?

I know it looks like high interest but honestly I wonder, I truly don't know.

I mean what happens when you begin making effort and showing your interest again? Will she become ambivalent, cautious, scared, or whatever she was feeling and start acting inconsistent and flakey again?

Is that what you want? A woman you have to act disinterested in for her to act interested due to her anxiety and insecurity?

I dunno maybe this is how the game is played but it sounds exhausting in my opinion.

Anyway, these are genuine questions and I'd be especially interested in @BeExcellent take on this since she appears to have her * together and quite socially aware.

Not that you or others are not but I can relate to her posts about most things

 

[Clockwerk50]

In my opinion, high IL

Hey everyone. Thank you all so much for the input. I really appreciate it.

This thread really took off and the opinions have helped me a great deal over the past few days in processing my own thoughts and my course of action.

An update to the situation:

Since she had been giving mixed signals, I decided to just turn my focus on another plate of mine.

This other plate has much higher IL than this mixed signals girl (but maybe a bit too high) she bombards me with messages (sometimes double texting) and is proactively DTF. Like many of you said, she is really easy in terms of our interaction. No mixed signals. Straight up just really into me. Asking me out all the time. We hooked up in the mean time. There is no ambiguity with this girl but it's funny because despite the transparency of it, the mixed signals plate had been on the back of my mind. Mostly just me wondering what's up with all that. (This shows that the whole mixed signals game can be quite effective on some men, more on this below).

Anyway after I dropped the mixed signals plate. 0 interaction and attention from me. She started to throw breadcrumbs my way (most of which I ignored) including commenting on my recent Facebook updates, sending me a random song on Spotify, sharing some funny memes with me, etc. Not much response from me. Because I've given up on such a confusing girl. After a long bout of withdrawal. She eventually messaged me to ask me if I was mad at her. I just said no. I then went to a new boxing class and she took that opportunity to ask me again if I was mad at her and tried to explain herself. I said I wasn't I've just been busy and truly I have been very busy with all the life activities.

Taking into account what some of you have said, compliance/agreeableness = everything I need to know (and also reminding myself this is just a plate, I had nothing to lose) and I just said "Anyway busy week but I'm planning to chill at home tonight, want to join?" She said "Yes I would love to" immediately.

Anyway she came over to my place, we had hot freaky sex. Things were great. In person as usual, I don't doubt she has high IL for me. After sex, we smoked up and chatted. And during those moments, I felt some strong LTR vibes as in maybe she wants to push for one with me. Not that the LTR conversation has come up yet but I am sure that's on her mind. I expect she will back off a bit again for awhile, do some weird confusing thing until the next time I ask her out. It's a pattern.

My own thoughts:

I don't doubt that this plate has high IL for me. In retrospect, I think perhaps she is engaging in some mind game. You see, I've met another woman like this a year ago. I even started a thread about it back then because I honestly don't meet these types often and they confuse me but I believe there are a certain type of high IL women that will use mixed signals to get you to invest more. I am talking about delayed messages, short messages, withheld communication, hot and cold behavior. They will do things to confuse you. But if they're into you then consistently over time you will come to realize that the interaction always goes your way if you step back far enough and have the resilience to weather through the games. That girl I met a year back ultimately became a stalker, her IL for me was through the roof and all the mixed signals I had experienced back in the early stages were really just part of her tactics to get me hooked. Now I am not saying that this plate is exactly the same. I could be wrong but this is just my conclusion at this point.

Given that this plate is very beautiful, it isn't inconceivable that she is branching around with other men as some of you suggested. That could also very well be it and why she did this. But the fact that she delayed her responses rather than just tell me outright she is unavailable after 24 hours, sounds gamey to me, especially how she freaked out immediately after when I withdrew. But what some of you said really hit it on the nail for me, to answer some of you, I still see her as a plate. I mean we have only just met not long ago, it's too early to think about anything else. I need to remind myself that this is still just the early stages, I've got to be more cool and level headed, treat a plate like a plate, focus on the big picture and judge her by her actions.

Simple Takeaway:

Gauging IL = Focus on their actions and consistency over time. Focus on their compliance and agreeableness.

Confusing IL = Focus on your rotation and other plates if all else fails and they just make it too confusing for you. Move on if necessary.

Even though high IL women are often very compliant and their kindness is charming at first, that niceness can become monotonous over time. When someone overwhelms you with love and attention, it can make them feel clingy and possessive, as if their love will never end, breaking the fantasy and mystery of attraction. We tend to be more drawn to people who cause us some pain or who have options to leave, as their aloofness can create insecurity. This push-pull dynamic, where they lift us back up with love and affection after moments of distance, can deepen our attachment. You did well in creating enough tension that culminated in a satisfying climax.

As I mentioned in my first post, when she reaches out, it means she wants to see you.

 

[SW15]

I decided to just turn my focus on another plate of mine.

This other plate has much higher IL than this mixed signals girl (but maybe a bit too high) she bombards me with messages (sometimes double texting) and is proactively DTF. Like many of you said, she is really easy in terms of our interaction. No mixed signals. Straight up just really into me. Asking me out all the time. We hooked up in the mean time. There is no ambiguity with this girl

You have some level of abundance and have the ability to do this. This is why abundance is promoted.

This 2nd option seems to be the overall better option in terms of the quality of the interaction. It's possible she's less good looking though. I'd actually say that it is likely that this is the less good looking option, as you acknowledge in a later quote that the hot & cold woman is beautiful. It seems to me that you favor the hot & cold woman's looks.

This stronger IL woman might have a case for exclusivity if she wants that. She might start dropping hints about that.

it's funny because despite the transparency of it, the mixed signals plate had been on the back of my mind. Mostly just me wondering what's up with all that. This shows that the whole mixed signals game can be quite effective on some men

All true

.Anyway after I dropped the mixed signals plate. 0 interaction and attention from me. She started to throw breadcrumbs my way (most of which I ignored) including commenting on my recent Facebook updates, sending me a random song on Spotify, sharing some funny memes with me, etc. Not much response from me. Because I've given up on such a confusing girl. After a long bout of withdrawal. She eventually messaged me to ask me if I was mad at her. I just said no. I then went to a new boxing class and she took that opportunity to ask me again if I was mad at her and tried to explain herself. I said I wasn't I've just been busy and truly I have been very busy with all the life activities.

Taking into account what some of you have said, compliance/agreeableness = everything I need to know (and also reminding myself this is just a plate, I had nothing to lose) and I just said "Anyway busy week but I'm planning to chill at home tonight, want to join?" She said "Yes I would love to" immediately.

Anyway she came over to my place, we had hot freaky sex. Things were great. In person as usual, I don't doubt she has high IL for me. After sex, we smoked up and chatted. And during those moments, I felt some strong LTR vibes as in maybe she wants to push for one with me. Not that the LTR conversation has come up yet but I am sure that's on her mind. I expect she will back off a bit again for awhile, do some weird confusing thing until the next time I ask her out. It's a pattern.

The nature of text messaging makes it easier for women to run hot/cold and show half hearted behaviors.

There was progress with this plate because it sounds like all of this happened in a 3 day period between the first post and this post.

You have acknowledged her pattern. Expect it to continue. You can continue to see her if she's willing to show up. Don't expect much out of her as time goes on. It's possible you'll continue to get sex in the short term if you can get her to show up. Don't go too far out of your way for her.

From the quote below, you seem to have the general idea.

Given that this plate is very beautiful, it isn't inconceivable that she is branching around with other men as some of you suggested. That could also very well be it and why she did this. But the fact that she delayed her responses rather than just tell me outright she is unavailable after 24 hours, sounds gamey to me, especially how she freaked out immediately after when I withdrew. But what some of you said really hit it on the nail for me, to answer some of you, I still see her as a plate. I mean we have only just met not long ago, it's too early to think about anything else. I need to remind myself that this is still just the early stages, I've got to be more cool and level headed, treat a plate like a plate, focus on the big picture and judge her by her actions.

Eventually, this will fizzle out. You seem likely to get some more short term sex out of it.

This is hypergamy in action. She's trying to get someone with higher SMV than you to commit her. Her interest isn't totally there though she doesn't want to get rid of you.

She will either....

• Get some man she perceives as higher value to commit to her
• Grow tired of the arrangement with you and get someone who is more beta to commit to her. This might be a beta with money.

 

[Divorced w 3]

You have some level of abundance and have the ability to do this. This is why abundance is promoted.

This 2nd option seems to be the overall better option in terms of the quality of the interaction. It's possible she's less good looking though. I'd actually say that it is likely that this is the less good looking option, as you acknowledge in a later quote that the hot & cold woman is beautiful. It seems to me that you favor the hot & cold woman's looks.

This stronger IL woman might have a case for exclusivity if she wants that. She might start dropping hints about that.



All true



The nature of text messaging makes it easier for women to run hot/cold and show half hearted behaviors.

There was progress with this plate because it sounds like all of this happened in a 3 day period between the first post and this post.

You have acknowledged her pattern. Expect it to continue. You can continue to see her if she's willing to show up. Don't expect much out of her as time goes on. It's possible you'll continue to get sex in the short term if you can get her to show up. Don't go too far out of your way for her.

From the quote below, you seem to have the general idea.



Eventually, this will fizzle out. You seem likely to get some more short term sex out of it.

This is hypergamy in action. She's trying to get someone with higher SMV than you to commit her. Her interest isn't totally there though she doesn't want to get rid of you.

She will either....

• Get some man she perceives as higher value to commit to her
• Grow tired of the arrangement with you and get someone who is more beta to commit to her. This might be a beta with money.

Spot on. Also I agree with the insecurities had her come running bit. I don’t know why OP cannot answer the question about his dating investment or lack thereof but I suppose at this point we can intimate an answer from him on this.

I personally think the woman in question knows she is in rotation, like she is likely rotating him also, and I think if he had the intention to take this further and date her properly she may even be open to that, but not apparently something he wants to do.

I have other questions about the second woman, it sounds like she’s comfortable not being treated better than a rotation partner, and if I were truly looking for a long term partner I would value the self respect angle which I don’t get the vibe of from the other woman - but I am just opining a bit here at this point.

 

[Sega Genesis]

After a long bout of withdrawal. She eventually messaged me to ask me if I was mad at her. I just said no.

I'm curious about this. She clearly noticed your withdrawal and asked you a direct question.

Instead of being honest and forthright telling her you were bothered by the lack of consistency, you chose to play games and replied "no" and continued your withdrawal.

You didn't have to admit to being "mad" which is a bit extreme but why not tell her you were disappointed in how the interaction was playing out and rethinking things?

You know, have a genuine conversation? I mean the truth IS you were bothered and you did seem to really like her.

Also I agree with @Div, you were treating the second girl like an option on rotation, giving minimal if any effort and she chased you, double texting, ready to throw her body at you without getting much in return.

As has been mentioned (did you read @BeExcellent post?), this isn't necessarily a sign of high interest, it's a sign she lacks respect for herself and doesn't believe she deserves better.

I dunno I suppose this illustrates the difference between a man who views a particular woman or women as a plate(s) versus a man truly being into her and seeking a LTR.

Not a criticism just an observation.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

She eventually messaged me to ask me if I was mad at her. I just said no. I then went to a new boxing class and she took that opportunity to ask me again if I was mad at her and tried to explain herself. I said I wasn't I've just been busy and truly I have been very busy with all the life activities

I don't mean to cause you grief, but I don't think that was the right play. Lot's of men here and men in general have cultivated this psuedo indifference/unreactive passivity mindset where they pretend they don't care even though they all do. If a women reverts to overt communication and asks you if you're upset, don't respond with the sort of covert/indirect feminine horseshvt communication that they typically do. It punishes them for being honest. If a women asks you if you're upset, and you are, tell her why. This would have been the perfect time to bring up her actions, rather than doing it reactively in the moment since it will be seen as weakness/neediness.

Anyway she came over to my place, we had hot freaky sex. Things were great. In person as usual, I don't doubt she has high IL for me. After sex, we smoked up and chatted. And during those moments, I felt some strong LTR vibes as in maybe she wants to push for one with me. Not that the LTR conversation has come up yet but I am sure that's on her mind. I expect she will back off a bit again for awhile, do some weird confusing thing until the next time I ask her out. It's a pattern.

That's how it goes. On the more extreme end BPD women pull this shvt of hot to cold back and forth and usually "freaky sex" is common after fights or mind games.

I don't doubt that this plate has high IL for me.

I do. I'd be wary with her, just keep on eye on her behavior more.

In retrospect, I think perhaps she is engaging in some mind game.

I'm gonna say it again, but I think mind games are childish and disrespectful, and any manipulation from women (plate or not) is unacceptable in my book. High quality women won't play mind games because they know it may cause the man to walk away from her. That said, I am starting to increasingly suspect that most women nowadays don't even know how self-respecting men act, because they never encounter it. They may never encounter a man who tells them "no", or meet a man has boundaries, so their knee-jerk response is to call them "controlling" or "narcissistic", which means there may be an element of needing to train them to think properly.

Given that this plate is very beautiful, it isn't inconceivable that she is branching around with other men as some of you suggested. That could also very well be it and why she did this. But the fact that she delayed her responses rather than just tell me outright she is unavailable after 24 hours, sounds gamey to me, especially how she freaked out immediately after when I withdrew.

Or, she wanted the power and didn't get it so now she's appeasing you again because her other options haven't crystalized yet. I'm not saying that IS what she's doing, but that's an alternative explaination. Don't overanalyze her or anything but just watch her behaviors and don't let her off the hook just yet or let your guard down. I think it's rare for a high quality women to go hot to cold then stay hot indefinitely...generally speaking, in healthy, stable relationships, there are few, if any, "hot" and cold" moments its all just "normal".

Let me illustrate this point (about high self esteem women). I'll talk about a well known old player here, Guru, who I have had opportunity to discuss the game with on multiple occassions. He's a cool dude, by the way.

Guru is a successful man, attractive, socially adroit, experienced at life. A risk taker. A self described playboy. He ran rotations & dated (I use the term loosely) many objectively hot women, got into LTRs here and there, and he understood women very well.

Except. He too would fall into the trap of expecting ANY woman to pursue him. Why? Because he'd had so much interest from women who at the end of the day were insecure/low self esteem (and many hot women fall into this category). So he was telling me about a beautiful girl he liked who is Ivy League educated, smart, savvy, and self-confident. He was perplexed because the conversation via text had dropped off, despite her warmth in responding.

Now. Guru knows that I ascribe to the investment viewpoint in dating. He also knows that my archetype of choice is the good looking player who has women running after him. He also knows that these players fall for me. Hmmmm. Why is that? Because I have the self confidence to KNOW what I bring to the table, I understand my own value is not based on appearance, and I know finding a beautiful woman who is also a smart, fun, solid, genuine person is RARE. So I don't need to be the hottest girl in the room if I'm the best girl across the board. And if a man doesn't see my value? Fine. Some other desirable man will.

So I told Guru, Listen. This girl you like isn't like the women you have chasing you. You are going to have to take some initiative, make an effort/extend an invitation/invest, give her something concrete to respond to. If she likes you she will say yes and be agreeable. Then you proceed from there.

He did this (reached out & invited her to do something - he hadn't heard from her for like 2 weeks at that point - and I told him, Look if you don't reach out you'll never hear from her - you've weeded yourself out in her book......)

She said yes. He called & was like, Ya know BE, it worked.

He's like, I really dig this girl. I said of course you do. We come to love what we invest in. And if she is responding by investing in you? Well this could be a great interaction that could develop legs.

Haven't talked with him in a while, but I'd bet he may be in a LTR at this point.

Men who get very skilled at the game have to learn when to drop the games for something worthwhile, because at the end of the day most men (yes even players) desire a meaningful relationship.

Playboy 101 is gaining the abundance mindset and getting past being bamboozeled by beauty. Its gaining comfort & calibration (lack of intimidation) around beauty.

Playboy 202 is learning to select women based on characteristics & behaviors rather than looks.

Playboy 303 is the ability to leave the game once you've experienced enough to apply 101 and 202 IF you find a woman worth leaving the playboy mindset for.

Caveat emptor of course.

That is the old lady's $0.02.

I get what you're saying but if a women likes a man she has to chase him at some point and the man has to allow her the opportunity to do so. I do agree that even some high quality women need to be chased, but it cannot be too one-sided or it ruins balance of power and she gains all the leverage.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Anyway after I dropped the mixed signals plate. 0 interaction and attention from me. She started to throw breadcrumbs my way (most of which I ignored) including commenting on my recent Facebook updates, sending me a random song on Spotify, sharing some funny memes with me, etc. Not much response from me. Because I've given up on such a confusing girl. After a long bout of withdrawal. She eventually messaged me to ask me if I was mad at her. I just said no. I then went to a new boxing class and she took that opportunity to ask me again if I was mad at her and tried to explain herself. I said I wasn't I've just been busy and truly I have been very busy with all the life activities

I don't mean to send cause you grief, but I don't think that was the right play. If a women reverts to overt communication and asks you if you're upset, don't respond with covert communication like that. It punishes them for being honest. If a women asks you if you're upset, and you are, tell her why. This would have been the perfect time to bring up her actions, rather than doing it reactively in the moment since it will be seen as weakness/neediness.

Anyway she came over to my place, we had hot freaky sex. Things were great. In person as usual, I don't doubt she has high IL for me. After sex, we smoked up and chatted. And during those moments, I felt some strong LTR vibes as in maybe she wants to push for one with me. Not that the LTR conversation has come up yet but I am sure that's on her mind. I expect she will back off a bit again for awhile, do some weird confusing thing until the next time I ask her out. It's a pattern.

That's how it goes. On the more extreme end BPD women pull this shvt of hot to cold back and forth and usually "freaky sex" is common after fights or mind games.

I don't doubt that this plate has high IL for me.

I do. I'd be wary with her, just keep on eye on her behavior more.

In retrospect, I think perhaps she is engaging in some mind game.

I'm gonna say it again, but I think mind games are childish and disrespectful, because any manipulation from women is unacceptable. High quality women won't play mind games because they know it may cause the man to walk away from her.

Given that this plate is very beautiful, it isn't inconceivable that she is branching around with other men as some of you suggested. That could also very well be it and why she did this. But the fact that she delayed her responses rather than just tell me outright she is unavailable after 24 hours, sounds gamey to me, especially how she freaked out immediately after when I withdrew.

Or, she wanted the power and didn't get it so now she's appeasing you again. I'm not saying that IS what she's doing, but that's an alternative explaination. Again, I wouldn't let her off the hook yet. Don't overanalyze her or anything but just watch her behaviors. I think it's rare for a high quality women to go hot to cold then stay hot indefinitely.

 

[Sega Genesis]

I get what you're saying but if a women likes a man she has to chase him at some point and the man has to allow her the opportunity to do so. I do agree that even some high quality women need to be chased, but it cannot be too one-sided or it ruins balance of power and she gains all the leverage.

If I understood your post correctly, I agree with you about it not being too one-sided. For either of them!

In my opinion neither the man nor woman should be "chasing." Chasing implies running away and the other chasing them to catch them.

Screw that, no one imo should be running after a dating partner, plate, fwb who is running away. Or who makes it so difficult to connect with them you're forced to chase.

Novel idea, but when there is mutual high interest, why not pursue each other? Mutual give and take at whatever pace is comfortable for them.

I dunno I have never been a big advocate of chasing. Or power games or who has more leverage.

Personally, I don't like to be chased, I find it annoying and a complete turn off. When I'm interested I'll show it and if I'm not interested I'll show that and stop seeing them. Period end of.

I must be missing something or perhaps an anomaly but again when there is mutual interest (which is key), my philosophy is pursue each other at whatever pace is comfortable for both to see where it will lead. In different ways but you're both making mutual effort.

Here, with the first girl, everyone is interpreting her initial behavior as game playing or some sort of mind **** but it was very early stages, perhaps she was ambivalent and assessing the situation and/or waiting for James to step up a bit versus having her as a plate on rotation which I find demeaning personally.

You stated she showed high interest on your in-person dates so I would be focusing on that - your in-person connection and not stressing so much about in between. Best to lower expectations in that regard. Just my opinion.

Or if it really troubles you, have a conversation.

However now it appears she has allowed her anxiety and insecurity to steer her ship which is the kiss of death in my opinion.

I agree with some others, unless you start getting honest, you may get some more hot freaky sex, but I don't envision anything long term developing. Which may be fine with you anyway.

JMO.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Personally, I don't like to be chased, I find it annoying and a complete turn off. When I'm interested I'll show it and if I'm not interested I'll show that and stop seeing them. Period end of.

Well that's certainly a hot take.

I don't think the chasing thing is something that goes on indefinitely, but it tends to in the early stages but yes there can be roughly "equal" interest and mutual chasing. But I do think you need to give women the opportunity to and not in some manipulative way but just for instance not being the one to reach out every time to setup the next meet.

 

[Sega Genesis]

Well that's certainly a hot take.

I don't think the chasing thing is something that goes on indefinitely, but it tends to in the early stages but yes there can be roughly "equal" interest and mutual chasing. But I do think you need to give women the opportunity to and not in some manipulative way but just for instance not being the one to reach out every time to setup the next meet.

Bolded, of course. They both should be reaching out, not just you (as a man) and not just her (or for a woman, not just him).

That's what I meant by mutual give and take. You're both making effort. In different ways but it's mutual effort.

Pursuing each other. Even during early stages in my opinion.

Like if he's been asking me out and doing the planning, to reciprocate his efforts, I might purchase tickets for a ball game or prepare a lovely dinner. For example.

Those are the best dating and relationships in my experience.

That said, I do also think it's okay to incorporate some push/pull from time to time.

Not as a game necessarily or to intentionally cause anxiety but because you're busy and need to pursue your purpose, on your own.

The best women will understand that and not start blowing up your phone or going bat shyt psycho. Lol

P.S. I'm female by the way.

 

[BaronOfHair]

What are your thoughts?

You're not an adolescent anymore: Lay off The Manosphere jargon("Plate" included), and resume communicating in sentences comprised of everyday language once again, such as: "There's this broad I've been doing a couple of times every other week"

Clarity of thought is extremely appealing, especially to modern women, who are hungry for reliable male leadership in their lives

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Bolded, of course. They both should be reaching out, not just you (as a man) and not just her (or for a woman, not just him).

That's what I meant by mutual give and take. You're both making effort. In different ways but it's mutual effort.

Pursuing each other. Even during early stages in my opinion.

Like if he's been asking me out and doing the planning, to reciprocate his efforts, I might purchase tickets for a ball game or prepare a lovely dinner. For example.

Those are the best dating and relationships in my experience.

I mean a simpler way of putting it is that a healthy relationship is one where you don't have to think about it.. As I quoted earlier "There's no reason you should ever have a hard time in a relationship."

P.S. I'm female by the way.

Yeah I was just about to ask that

 

[Sega Genesis]

As I quoted earlier "There's no reason you should ever have a hard time in a relationship."

I agree! Which is different from a woman making things "easy" for a man who is basically doing nothing and expects her to chase which I've read on here.

Dating and relationships are nuanced though so there will be times of uncertainty which personally I have no problem with.

But for the most part I agree that the best and healthiest relationships should not be difficult.

Actually took me awhile to get to this place (mindset) cause Ive experienced a lot of chaos in my life since childhood but I'm here now.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

I agree! Which is different from a woman making things "easy" for a man who is basically doing nothing and expects her to chase which I've read on here.

Dating and relationships are nuanced though so there will be times of uncertainty which personally I have no problem with.

But for the most part I agree that the best and healthiest relationships should not be difficult.

Actually took me awhile to get to this place (mindset) cause Ive experienced a lot of chaos in my life since childhood but I'm here now.

Easy in this context really just means not having to think. Eg making it easy to lead, communicates well (even though all women say they value communication most of them are dogshvt communicators), helps you make the plans ahead of time (and actually sticks to them)... rather than constant fickle and flaky mixed signal horseshvt that makes you question why you're even bothering with her...an example I keep repeating is her sending you her calenders/schedules so you know when she's available, I fvcking love when they do that and I will be sure to show my appreciation somehow or another.

 

[jamesfromhouston]

To me, what your pushing back accomplished was you triggered her anxiety and insecurities. Thus, she sought your reassurance, approval and validation and began chasing to alleviate her anxiety.

My question is, is this a demonstration of high interest? Or a woman who feels anxious and insecure and will do anything to alleviate it?

I know it looks like high interest but honestly I wonder, I truly don't know.

I mean what happens when you begin making effort and showing your interest again? Will she become ambivalent, cautious, scared, or whatever she was feeling and start acting inconsistent and flakey again?

Is that what you want? A woman you have to act disinterested in for her to act interested due to her anxiety and insecurity?

That is a very good point! And actually I've wondered about that myself.

The truth is I don't really know her intentions for a fact. All I know is that when we hung out in person, I have no doubts that the IL is there.

The stuff we do in bed. The things she says. Her mannerisms. They all shout high IL to me.

But what some of the other posters said might be true, maybe I am just a plate of hers.

She might have IL for me but also branching around and being hypergamous, it could explain the discrepancy in behavior and why sometimes she withdraws.

Although my instincts are telling me that it could very well be a game she is trying to play to get me to invest or alternatively, a game she plays to not seem so needy.

 

[jamesfromhouston]

In my opinion, high IL


Even though high IL women are often very compliant and their kindness is charming at first, that niceness can become monotonous over time. When someone overwhelms you with love and attention, it can make them feel clingy and possessive, as if their love will never end, breaking the fantasy and mystery of attraction. We tend to be more drawn to people who cause us some pain or who have options to leave, as their aloofness can create insecurity. This push-pull dynamic, where they lift us back up with love and affection after moments of distance, can deepen our attachment. You did well in creating enough tension that culminated in a satisfying climax.

As I mentioned in my first post, when she reaches out, it means she wants to see you.

I think this is on point. With the other plate who is high IL, it can be quite off putting. My mind is more drawn to this aloof plate.

In my own reflection, I realized that I've mostly been affected by plates that behave like this. And embarrassing to admit, those which stopped being so "mixed" end up getting dropped down my list. Maybe I've got personal issues that I need to work on hahaha.

 

[jamesfromhouston]

This 2nd option seems to be the overall better option in terms of the quality of the interaction. It's possible she's less good looking though. I'd actually say that it is likely that this is the less good looking option, as you acknowledge in a later quote that the hot & cold woman is beautiful. It seems to me that you favor the hot & cold woman's looks.

This stronger IL woman might have a case for exclusivity if she wants that. She might start dropping hints about that.


The nature of text messaging makes it easier for women to run hot/cold and show half hearted behaviors.

You have acknowledged her pattern. Expect it to continue. You can continue to see her if she's willing to show up. Don't expect much out of her as time goes on. It's possible you'll continue to get sex in the short term if you can get her to show up. Don't go too far out of your way for her.

Eventually, this will fizzle out. You seem likely to get some more short term sex out of it.

This is hypergamy in action. She's trying to get someone with higher SMV than you to commit her. Her interest isn't totally there though she doesn't want to get rid of you.

She will either....

• Get some man she perceives as higher value to commit to her
• Grow tired of the arrangement with you and get someone who is more beta to commit to her. This might be a beta with money.

@SW15 you're almost clairvoyant!

The 2nd option is not as good looking as the 1st. Id' say the 2nd is about a solid 7 in my eyes.

The 1st is a hottie. I met the 1st at a sports bar. The night I met her she was being pulled by another guy but I ended up successfully pulling her away. Hypergamy was in action right before my eyes there and then. And a few times we've been out, I've seen guys attempting to make moves on her as well.

But the reason why I say you're clairvoyant is because prior to this plate, about 2 years ago, I had another plate who was a solid 9. An influencer. We had a good thing going. But what you described happened. Initially, she met up with me, we would always have great sex. We would hangout and have fun on dates. She would hit me up, drop regular bread crumbs but sometimes go cold. We had a good run. Had sex many times, then at one point, she politely dropped the "what are we" bomb, I politely told her friends. She still continued to see me for awhile, had sex a few more times before gradually fizzling out and then outright ignores and flakes on my attempts to ask her out. She is now married to a rich beta guy and they have a kid.