Marriage...

[DonJuanjr]

As far as other questions asked of me by @EyeBRollin and @DonJuanjr I'm flattered you value my opinion so much, but I've said my piece and invite you to re-read my posts for clarity and insight into my thought process, it's all there.

I figured you'd dodge the question... Going by what you wrote..... You would have a problem with your Fiancee requiring you to be monogamous towards him, but he can sleep with women on the side...This isn't truly accepting/understanding male nature. You say it's okay for BOTH of you to have an open marriage. Given the choice, no man wants to share the woman he's CHOSEN, with other men.

 

[BeExcellent]

Again @Thewolfquest I appreciate your candor. True that men and women do both cheat. However not ALL men and not ALL women cheat. I do not, and believe me I have every opportunity all the time. So much so that I’m over it. I am on a business trip at the moment. I got approached by a man at the restaurant last night. He was very forward & persistent (attractive Ex pro athlete who golfs a lot and to be honest was an annoying name dropper)…but I’m just not interested in anyone else. I appreciate the acknowledgment etc. but I always start going on a monologue about how great my guy is until they get the picture.

Only you know your situation. If being married isn’t your jam and you feel justified in your cheating (really doesn’t matter why) then yes you are best to be honest and best to let her go and move on. It will hurt you when she finds someone else. And what will hurt more potentially is seeing her in a solid marriage with someone else building a life…and knowing that could have been you. But it will take time for that ton of bricks to hit you.

You are young. You don’t yet realize the regrets that 50 or 60 year old you may have. I know a retired NHL player. Rich, single, always a bachelor with looks, masculinity and money. He is lonely even though he has been a playboy etc for years. He sees his friends and old teammates with their long time spouses and children and grandchildren and he wishes he had THAT. But he realizes those are not the choices he made. He wishes he had a woman who isn’t resource driven to make a life with. His priorities have changed and looking back he has regret but 30 year old him didn’t have the same perspective.

My fiancé once in a while talks about a woman who loved him in his youth. He was a hot fraternity guy then, an elite skier and she wanted them to marry and have a family. He never wanted kids so even though she was his physical ideal, was cool and they loved one another he broke it off and moved on. But he never forgot her and carried that regret a long long time as he ran through many women and various relationships. When he met me he realized I am the same type girl, and he tells everyone “I waited 30 years to find this girl, no way I’m letting her go”…

So your perspective may shift. But right now you seem to feel FOMO a bit and entitlement to do whatever even if you made a commitment and gave your word. It’s good you were honest about it. But it’s better you are honest with yourself. If you are unwilling to be what you promised to her and if that is happening in the context of you want to be free to do you (screw whoever etc.) then the right thing to do is let go, let her go, and give her the ability to bond with someone else.

She will. You have your own character to develop and your own journey. I’m merely pointing out that like a lot of guys you may not fully appreciate what you had until it’s gone and you find yourself looking for it again sometime in the future.

Life has opportunity costs. You can’t have everything both ways. None of us can for long.

But only you know these things, and they are evolving as you grow & mature in life.

Whatever you decide I wish you all the best.

 

[BadBoy89]

I wish this was something that was stressed more in the manosphere. Instead, they push the "I'm an alpha male, I must have sex with whoever I want whenever I want, even if I'm married" angle while demanding that women stay faithful. When Rollo was here, he used to frequently say that "women want a man who could cheat. But don't". In other words, an attractive guy with options. Too often here, they translate as "women want a man who will cheat". Period.

Obviously, I know couples where the guy cheated and it broke up the relationship. I also know couples where the guy cheated, and they stayed together (or got back together), but the relationship was never the same, it was damaged. I've always said the man is the leader, he must model appropriate behavior. If a man can't have self discipline over his desires, how can you expect a woman to? The man must set the standard.

Fair enough, as long as the women:

- signs away all her legal rights in case of divorce
- signs a 100% iron clad prenup
- provides at least off spring
- does not nag, complain, bvtch, or cheat
- takes care of the home
- has sex on demand

Back when Kings has 2 wives and 3 mistresses. Now men have to follow the morality construct so the rich people can keep the young hot girls for themselves.

In this day and age, if my wife gave me a daughter, I would tell her “you can cheat all you want, but you cannot come after any assets.”

I wonder if she would go for that…

 

[EyeBRollin]

My boyfriend is also monogamous. If that ever changes and he no longer wishes to be monogamous, he knows he can be honest with me about it and we will discuss it like two mature adults.

If your boyfriend tells you he wants to open up the relationship to permit him fvcking other girls, you will threaten him with either leaving or entertaining other dudes.

 

[DonJuanjr]

Come on DJ, this is getting silly, read my posts, use critical thinking, I did NOT say it was OK for me and my boyfriend to have an open marriage. I was making a generalized statement with respect to cheating which is deception versus being open about wanting to be sexual with others.

I am monogamous, I said this several times.

Since I asked you to apply your generalized statement to your life, and your response was for me to interpret it, can you blame me? You say you understand male nature, yet you don't understand why a guy would rely on deception instead of being open about wanting to engage other women sexually. Yet you respond with:

If that ever changes and he no longer wishes to be monogamous, he knows he can be honest with me about it and we will discuss it like two mature adults.

I don't speculate or presume to know how I will respond.

This is why. Even though you say you accept male nature, you still aren't confident in accepting it. If he wanted you to remain monogamous towards him, while he sleeps with women on the side, you don't know how you would feel. We both know it wouldn't sit well with you. It seems like if you truly accepted male nature, then you'd know without a doubt what the answer would be. How am I supposed to interpret your answer if you don't even know it?

 

[EyeBRollin]

You're gonna believe what you want based on your own experiences which I understand. But that is not my style dude. Especially the threat of entertaining other guys. Lord, that is definitely NOT my style. Leaving the RL? Yes that is possible. Not an automatic given, but possible.

“Possibly” as in there is a 99% chance you leave him if he proposes an open relationship where only he can fvck other girls.

I don't know what happened to you man, who hurt you or what but your mindset about much of this stuff comes off so bitter, hateful and sexist.

Do you realize that @Barrister and I share the same view but according to you HIS view (as a man) is understandable but MY view, the SAME view (as a woman) is skewed or cap? Do you not realize how sexist that is?

Anyway I am so done with this. You don't respect my opinions so I'm confused why you and your sidekick @DonJuanjr continue to engage me, it boggles my mind.


And once again, I wish you and your fiancé the best, I hope everything works out and I mean that sincerely.

You’re getting upset because most of us seasoned vets in here are fully aware of the female imperative and how women operate. This is not a personal attack. You can be the coolest chick in any given room but the fact remains women and men have different mating tactics and strategies. We all know what would happen should boyfriend be “honest” about his own biological imperative to fvck around. I’m actually surprised you are still trying to preserve the facade.

 

[DonJuanjr]

I'm confused why you and your sidekick @DonJuanjr continue to engage me, it boggles my mind.

Haha.... We've disagreed on topics more than you and I...

 

[EyeBRollin]

The operative phrase being "seasoned vets in here." On this forum. And yes I am very aware of how many of you guys believe women operate, and I have agreed with you too some of the time. I KNOW how some women operate, as I have said many times, I am ashamed of my own gender sometimes.

That said, this forum is not the be-all-end-all of how ALL men think nor are your opinions the be-all-end-all of how ALL women operate. It's a fraction and let's face it many of the men here have been badly burned by women and their opinions and frame come from that place. A place of hurt and anger.

Which I understand and think is an important distinction.

I speak in generalizations. Exceptions do not make the rule. If you put five HB10s that are DTF in front of a happily married man, he’s going to smash if he can get away with it.

OP made the rookie mistake of confessing his sin to his wife. He couldn’t live with the guilt. Some call it “honorable.” But it caused irreparable damage to the marriage.

Moral of the story is don’t fvck around on your wife if you can’t live with the guilt. There are some men that feel no guilt. Women feel no guilt when exercising their own imperative on men. Sad that most men can’t be the same way.

Men, “honor” is between two men. Don’t let women manipulate you with it.

 

[RBK]

Humans are not meant to be monogamous creatures. Sorry. I have a lot of married friends and the husbands are mostly unhappy as post kids their wives are now out of shape and don't give a **** about them anymore because all they care about is their kids, the big house he can provide and women wonder why men step out. I think part of the problem is men aren't "gaming" their wives either after marriage. They both get complacent and a member of the opposite sex shows interest and that's all it takes.

Divorce rates at an all time high, 65% i think right now.

Unless you really want kids, marriage is a terrible deal for men.

 

[DonJuanjr]

If on the third hand, a married man cheats and has affairs simply for the sheer pleasure of it and it becomes somewhat of a sport to him, then that's an entire different ball game. And I am back to my original opinion that such man has no business being married.

Even a woman such as yourself; a woman who says she's accepting of male nature doesn't know how you would respond if your fiance wanted to have sport sex with other women on the side, but you remain monogamous... Why would a guy expect a woman who doesn't understand male nature to be okay with it? It shouldn't prevent a guy from being married if he wants. You can't punish a man for acting in his nature...That's like punishing a dog for sniffing another dogs a$$. This is why guys should just take it to the grave. There is no reward for being a man of honor and admitting to the cheating.

 

[EyeBRollin]

Okay I have had a quick rethink about the OP's situation and I agree with you, with a caveat. In some instances, it may be best to stay quiet about it. It's a bit selfish to want to come clean if the only reason you're doing so is to alleviate your own guilt. So in that sense it was not honorable. It was selfish. And it destroyed his wife and did damage to their marriage. Take it to your grave and vow to never cheat again.

On the other hand, and this HAS been known to happen, the disclosure of an affair can sometimes heal a troubled marriage. It allows both partners to deep dive into their RL, acknowledge what went wrong and take steps to HEAL. Many couples have in fact healed and come to the other side stronger. I have seen it.

The only upside to telling his wife he cheated was that he could sleep better at night. But he made it the opposite for her. I disagree that there is any good that comes from telling a partner you have been cheating. It is a mistake. It does not benefit the relationship at all.

If on the third hand, a married man cheats and has affairs simply for the sheer pleasure of it and it becomes somewhat of a sport to him, then that's an entirely different ball game. And I am back to my original opinion that such man has no business being married.

Point is, infidelity can be quite nuanced. Like everything else in life, there is no "one size fits all."

On this I agree. Multiple affairs is no good. I differentiate having full on relationship with just the occasional need to experience sexual variety. Affairs are a blatant sign that one should not be married.

 

[BadBoy89]

Well as I said, I have seen where disclosing an affair DID heal a troubled marriage so it did benefit the marriage in that regard. Again it allowed both to deep dive to determine what when wrong and why the affair happened. Regardless of who had the affair, the wife or the husband or sometimes both.

I will say it takes an incredibly open mind and forgiving heart for this healing to occur, but again I have seen it. It's rare but it happens.

If your husband was rich and you lived like Queen, would you allow a friends 27 year old hot daughter to stay with you as a houseguest while she finishes her schooling?

 

[RBK]

In most cases, the open relationship benefits the woman more as she gets more extra-relational penis since her vagina is in more demand. Blackdragon claims to have an open relationship system where men can get more side vag than women get side penis. I'm skeptical.

Women can get sex anywhere if they are on apps. Open relationships sexually benefit women way more.

Remember, women are the gatekeepers of sex, men are the guardians of relationships.

 

[DonJuanjr]

Open relationships sexually benefit women way more.

Feminine Imperative suggests there's only two options, open relationship or monogamy. How about the male can have sport sex with other women, but the woman has to remain monogamous.

 

[RBK]

Feminine Imperative suggests there's only two options, open relationship or monogamy. How about the male can have sport sex with other women, but the woman has to remain monogamous.

You need to be a top tier man to pull that off and it's not easy.

 

[EyeBRollin]

Well as I said, I have seen where disclosing an affair DID heal a troubled marriage so it did benefit the marriage in that regard. Again it allowed both to deep dive to determine what when wrong and why the affair happened. Regardless of who had the affair, the wife or the husband or sometimes both.

I will say it takes an incredibly open mind and forgiving heart for this healing to occur, but again I have seen it. It's rare but it happens.

But to disclose to alleviate one's own guilt for cheating? That's not honorable at all, it's self-serving so it appears we agree, at least about that one thing.

There is no upside. All confessions do is cause trauma to the spouse. Take it to the grave. Only time to confess is when there is an inevitability, like the clowns that get another woman pregnant.

 

[SW15]

My fiancé once in a while talks about a woman who loved him in his youth. He was a hot fraternity guy then, an elite skier and she wanted them to marry and have a family. He never wanted kids so even though she was his physical ideal, was cool and they loved one another he broke it off and moved on. But he never forgot her and carried that regret a long long time as he ran through many women and various relationships. When he met me he realized I am the same type girl, and he tells everyone “I waited 30 years to find this girl, no way I’m letting her go”…

I think you've said your fiancé is younger than you are. I guess he's around 45. I guess this incident you describe happened around when he was 21-25.

If this is a guy who never wanted kids, why did he bother with a serious relationship with a woman with children who are under 18? Also, this woman is substantially older than he is. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Many men succumb to women's parental desires. There are plenty of men who boast about not wanting kids but end up with kids. So, let's say your fiancé succumbed to that woman's desires from 20+ years ago and lost frame in the relationship. It wouldn't have been terrible if they managed to stay together, which is questionable. The more realistic scenario is that the amazing relationship from 20 years ago would have ended in divorce ~10 years ago. If successful, he would have gotten to spend his 20s/30s/maybe early 40s with a woman that was a great fit. He would have had his own kids with her instead of getting into some uncomfortable step parenting situation. Own kids is always a less messy situation.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

3) Cheating irresponsibly - wear a condom. no outside kids or STDs. Keep it far from home. Don’t bring the other woman anywhere near your home life. Ideally, this broad lives in another state or country and has no idea where you live.

I can think of an example where a married woman cheating "responsibly" and discreetly. A man I knew had sex with a married woman who was traveling to his city on business (pre-pandemic, when business travel was more of a thing). This woman had a high travel job which gave her the opportunity have discreet affairs in multiple cities away from home. I think she even had children while she was doing it.

Not all women conduct their affairs like this.

 

[BeExcellent]

I think you've said your fiancé is younger than you are. I guess he's around 45. I guess this incident you describe happened around when he was 21-25.

Correct. He is 45. The relationship he is nostalgic about was from college, he was 19-21 at that time.

If this is a guy who never wanted kids, why did he bother with a serious relationship with a woman with children who are under 18? Also, this woman is substantially older than he is. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Essentially, he has realized that he cannot get the "perfect" ideal woman. There are trade offs. I mean I'd take George Clooney in a perfect world too, but that is not objective reality. He's dated the hot but b@tshjt crazies more than he likes to admit. He's over those girls. Quality women are never single so they are relatively rare on the single scene. He happened to meet me right when I emerged from another LTR so he feels lucky that it happened that way. And he was pretty fresh out of a LTR as well so it was good timing.

We get along really well, have great sexual chemistry and a great connection. We are both very attracted to one another. I'm not clingy or needy although I appreciate him as The Man. He doesn't like the entitled, immature nature of the typical younger single chick. He's been there got the t-shirt and is Meh because they aren't wifable and he wants a long term life partner; a wife. Younger women are either going to have younger kids or are going to want to have kids with him as dad. He does not want to deal with babies or young children. Ever. He knows he is NOT expected to be a step father nor parent my kids. They have a good, loving father. His role is my lover/life partner/husband. That's it. He has forged a neat rapport with my kids so that has been nice. But there is no need for him to parent nor provide. At 17 1/2 and 13 1/2 my girls are pretty self sufficient with their own friends and activities. They are not troubled kids at all and they are required and expected to be respectful and responsible, he said just last week that the kid thing has not been the issue he was concerned it would be prior to moving in. He likes them actually.

He doesn't care about the age thing. His mother's second husband is a number of years younger than she is and they have been happily married 32 years now. My grandmother's second husband was 8 years younger than she was and she still outlived him (she was married twice for 30+ years and widowed twice). We are both youthful for our respective ages and when he met me and thought I was the "hottest girl in the <very crowded with lots of young people> club", which he proudly boasts when he tells the story about how we met....he didn't have any idea about my age. He thought I was in my 30s based on appearance. So that doesn't matter to him the way some of you guys obsess about it around here.

Many men succumb to women's parental desires. There are plenty of men who boast about not wanting kids but end up with kids. So, let's say your fiancé succumbed to that woman's desires from 20+ years ago and lost frame in the relationship. It wouldn't have been terrible if they managed to stay together, which is questionable. The more realistic scenario is that the amazing relationship from 20 years ago would have ended in divorce ~10 years ago. If successful, he would have gotten to spend his 20s/30s/maybe early 40s with a woman that was a great fit. He would have had his own kids with her instead of getting into some uncomfortable step parenting situation. Own kids is always a less messy situation.

He would disagree with this although he has turned it over in his mind over the years. But in the end he never succumbed to this. He tolerates it with me because he finds me worth the trade off. We have actually discussed it at length. The girl was very hot/sexy to him. She was willing to do anything to keep him, including share him (she told him this). She wanted to get married, have babies very young and be a fulltime wife and mother. He did not want kids at all. Nor did he want to be responsible for a woman and in the position of taking care of a wife who doesn't work and wasn't educated (she had only a high school education and did not want to attend college)...and he knew that in time she would be boring because she didn't have any desire for education nor any ambition beyond wife and motherhood nor any of her own interests. He is an adventure sport athlete to this day and travels all over for various events. He invests his money there and raising children would have impeded this substantially. Looking over his life he does not think the woman from his youth would have been a great fit at all. He didn't want dependents. She and any children would have been utterly dependent upon him and he didn't want THAT. Knowing that he cut the relationship off even though she begged him back. Their life ambitions were not compatible and he knew that. With my kids they are older such that he isn't dealing with kids dependent on HIM. He also has seen through the years how rare finding a great fit for a partner is out there and he has decided that the trade off is worth it. My older daughter is a senior this coming year, and my youngest an 8th grader. His attitude is that 5 years of kids in the home is a small price to pay when the exchange is he gets the right life partner out of the deal. We can travel and do things without issue. And he enjoys and instigates "family time" often. He is kind of the tribal chieftain at our house, a role which he seems to enjoy. I do think he would have made a great father. He still could be one of course with someone else...but he doesn't want that.

Not everybody wants the same things in life and nobody is perfect either. But if you keep your eyes open you can find someone who is a pretty great fit.

 

[SW15]

My older daughter is a senior this coming year, and my youngest an 8th grader. His attitude is that 5 years of kids in the home is a small price to pay when the exchange is he gets the right life partner out of the deal.

He knows he is NOT expected to be a step father nor parent my kids. They have a good, loving father. His role is my lover/life partner/husband. That's it. He has forged a neat rapport with my kids so that has been nice. But there is no need for him to parent nor provide. At 17 1/2 and 13 1/2 my girls are pretty self sufficient with their own friends and activities. They are not troubled kids at all and they are required and expected to be respectful and responsible, he said just last week that the kid thing has not been the issue he was concerned it would be prior to moving in. He likes them actually.

That would be way too big of an ask for me. I have a "no single moms, no exceptions" policy. I'm 39. In my 30s, I've seen plenty of single moms on apps when I was swiping but have rarely run into them in real world cold approaching.

A childless man and a single mom have way different lifestyles. Over the years, I've listened to both co-worker single moms and co-worker married moms. After listening to them, I realize that the lifestyle differences and priorities would be way too big of a gap for me to bridge. Additionally, I perceive raising another's man children as being the supreme beta move. Raising the children of a widow isn't as beta as raising the children of a man who is still alive. I have never run into a widow. Even still, I don't think I could handle the lifestyle incompatibilities of a childless man and a single mom.

Also, adult children are a royal pain too. Some 50+ men think that they are catching a break by dating a woman whose children are over 18 and grown. At 53, you likely have 50-55 year old female friends with children over 18. While a partner with independent, adult children is better than a partner with children under 10-12, having to deal with a woman's adult children stinks too. Almost no older men think about this angle.

He would disagree with this although he has turned it over in his mind. He never succumbed to this. He tolerates it with me because he finds me worth the trade off. We have actually discussed it at length. The girl was very hot/sexy to him. She was willing to do anything to keep him, including share him (she told him this). She wanted to get married, have babies very young and be a fulltime wife and mother. He did not want kids at all. Nor did he want to be responsible for a woman and in the position of taking care of a wife who doesn't work and wasn't educated (she had only a high school education and did not want to attend college)...and he knew that in time she would be boring because she didn't have any desire for education nor any ambition beyond wife and motherhood nor any of her own interests. He is an adventure sport athlete to this day and travels all over for various events. He invests his money there and raising children would have impeded this substantially. Looking over his life he does not think the woman from his youth would have been a great fit at all. He didn't want dependents. She and any children would have been utterly dependent upon him and he didn't want THAT. Knowing that he cut the relationship off even though she begged him back. Their life ambitions were not compatible and he knew that.

It seems like it was a great relationship in the moment but would have gone sour had it continued. He likely exited that relationship at the right time. Most relationships have a shelf life of goodness of around 2-5 years, no matter how long they last.

Younger women are either going to have younger kids or are going to want to have kids with him as dad. He does not want to deal with babies or young children. Ever.

In general, what you say about younger women is true, though it is becoming less true with the Millennials as they age into their mid 30s to early 40s. Now, if this 45 year old is such an amazing catch, he could date women in his 20s for 2-3 years at a time and trade them out once their bio clocks started ticking. He could also find a childless 40-45 year old who stayed in shape. A 40-45 year old isn't going to conceive.

Unless you really want kids, marriage is a terrible deal for men.

True. Also, if you have a child with a woman now, there is a really good chance that she won't be your romantic partner when the first child turns 18.

Humans are not meant to be monogamous creatures. Sorry. I have a lot of married friends and the husbands are mostly unhappy as post kids their wives are now out of shape and don't give a **** about them anymore because all they care about is their kids, the big house he can provide and women wonder why men step out. I think part of the problem is men aren't "gaming" their wives either after marriage. They both get complacent and a member of the opposite sex shows interest and that's all it takes.

Divorce rates at an all time high, 65% i think right now.

Shorter term monogamy can work. 2-5 year shelf life of goodness. Bad stuff tends to happen after that point.

Complacency on both sides is bad, which often happens after 2-5 years. Or the partners get too caught up in child-centered activities and neglect the primary relationship.

 

[BeExcellent]

That would be way too big of an ask for me. I have a "no single moms, no exceptions" policy. I'm 39. In my 30s, I've seen plenty of single moms on apps when I was swiping but have rarely run into them in real world cold approaching.

A childless man and a single mom have way different lifestyles. Over the years, I've listened to both co-worker single moms and co-worker married moms. After listening to them, I realize that the lifestyle differences and priorities would be way too big of a gap for me to bridge. Additionally, I perceive raising another's man children as being the supreme beta move. Raising the children of a widow isn't as beta as raising the children of a man who is still alive. I have never run into a widow. Even still, I don't think I could handle the lifestyle incompatibilities of a childless man and a single mom.

Also, adult children are a royal pain too. Some 50+ men think that they are catching a break by dating a woman whose children are over 18 and grown. At 53, you likely have 50-55 year old female friends with children over 18. While a partner with independent, adult children is better than a partner with children under 10-12, having to deal with a woman's adult children stinks too. Almost no older men think about this angle.



It seems like it was a great relationship in the moment but would have gone sour had it continued. He likely exited that relationship at the right time. Most relationships have a shelf life of goodness of around 2-5 years, no matter how long they last.



In general, what you say about younger women is true, though it is becoming less true with the Millennials as they age into their mid 30s to early 40s. Now, if this 45 year old is such an amazing catch, he could date women in his 20s for 2-3 years at a time and trade them out once their bio clocks started ticking. He could also find a childless 40-45 year old who stayed in shape. A 40-45 year old isn't going to conceive.

Well because *I'm* an amazing catch too, but that's bragging so I won't belabor that, lol.

That's fine. At 39 you have your reasons for doing what you do. But, respectfully, I'm not involved with you, and my fiance is not you either. He is pleased with his choice or he would not have made it. I am pleased with him or I would not have accepted (and I had made trade off too, make no mistake...but things are good. The other issue with older childless women is they tend to be often masculine in nature, bossy, and selfish. Less feminine. Especially if they have never been married or at the very least engaged. This is to me FAR more a red flag in a woman than in a man. If a woman has never been married it means she's never been in a relationship with anyone who found her marriage worthy. There are typically some pretty interesting reasons why that is, many of them NOT GOOD.

Women aged 40-50 ARE able to concieve, actually, and can be quite fertile in fact. You do NOT want the high risks of a first pregnancy with a woman that age. Downs syndrome and all manner of birth defects become a substantial risk.

Adult children are not an issue if they were raised properly in the first place. Now that is a big IF. But this is not a parenting discussion.

I know personally many and I mean dozens of truly happy married couples that have been together for decades. Most with children but some without. The curious thing about you and others who hold this "Shelf Life" viewpoint of relationships is that there exists MUCH evidence to the contrary. There are couples who treasure one another into their old age. The recycle every 2-5 years crowd will never achieve nor understand what true life partnership is. But real life partnership is what both my man and I want and so we like what we got going. I'll update you again in 5 years. Promise

Listen. Nobody is asking you to understand or subcribe to my situation. But it is real, it exists, and it is what both people want. What some people struggle with is when they are aware of situations that do not conform to their value system; their belief system. You have a different value and belief system than he and I. We are doing life according to our value system; you are doing life according to yours. I accept that your value system exists, but I do not subscribe to it. You seem to take issue with my fiance's value system since it doesn't line up with yours, especially since you would observe him to be an objectively desirable, masculine, guy. Different strokes for different folks.

And no he isn't blue pill, lol. He knows very well how women operate. Thank God.