Why are religious guys such man shamers/pvssy beggers?

[ebracer05]

Dear Warrior,
I think we can lay the problem squarely at the feet of Paul,he hijacked the religion,and overlaid it with his own bizarre attitudes to Women and marriage..."better to marry than burn..." really!

With all due respect - this is ridiculous.

It's also ridiculous the embittered attitudes many of the men here seem to have about religion. You identify the problem about half correctly - there are millions of people in the world who claim to follow Christianity and don't. You haven't said it like this, but this is effectively what you have said. This is why you say there are so many hypocrites and why Christianity destroys so many men but when you do, you are falling for a straw man argument. Do you really think the men who have been so destroyed by their religion are actually "Christians" the way Christ intended?

Absolutely not.

Suppose someone said they wanted to get "jacked and cut" but they followed an incorrect workout and diet regimen. What is the problem, the individual or the routine?

Look around on these boards: It would be very easy for someone on the outside to come here and say that this DJ stuff is nonsense because there are so many AFC's here - in fact, people have said this.

But you guys consistently apply this same bad logic to Christianity. If you don't believe in it, that is your right. But to reject it outright because there are a bunch of idiots who claim to believe in it but apply it incorrectly is to be just as idiotic.

I will also cosign with Rollo in support of Dalrock's blog... it is very good.

 

[disgustipated]

How bout putting fault at the feet of the leaders in the church who are supposed to lead by example and shepard young men and women into how to be the right kind of Christian? Don't place a bunch of blame on honest men looking to be inspired when the leaders are not only hypocrites but have no idea how to get his followers to where they need to go. At 21, I gave.it a real try ...but time after time the church failed me ...pastors and preachers could not lead by example.

To use your analogy, the young man's trainer giving him a jacked up workout schedule and he doesn't get jacked and cut. Who's at fault there, the pt for not being qualified or the young man for being too trusting?

 

[betheman]

Im deeply suspicious of church leaders. the simple fact is, they preach a way of life, to follow jesus, jesus had the clothes on his back, no possessions, he lived day to day, off the hospitality of thoise he witnessed too, giving him food and shelter. these modern day sharp suited chralatans with thier pension portfolios, luxury cars an homes are a disgrace. Im not suggetsing they live s like bums but they live like celebreties, a lifestyle others cannot match.

tis easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven...they are clearly missing the damn point! what else are they defaulting on?

 

[Colossus]

I'm going to have to disagree with most of you here. TRUE biblical principles on marriage and the church espouse male leadership. Period, end of story. Not dictatorship, leadership. Many church-going religious men ALLOW their women to waltz all over them. And of course you get the built-in female pedestalization from the no-sex-before-marriage thing, which is more of an interpretation of scripture than a law.

The point is the AFCism you see in a lot of Christian men is more a product of church culture rather than Biblical principles and their relationship with Christ. Like eBracer was saying, you could come here and say this DJ thing is rubbish because of all the AFCs here....or that many self-proclaimed DJs post threads about newbie problems like flakes and one-itis. There is hypocrisy in every school of thought and every faith. It doesn't invalidate the faith itself or it's core principles. Remember religion is different than relationship. Religion is a construct based on laws and interpretation; relationship is a dynamic, living thing that produces positive change in an individual.

At any rate, I'm not trying to convert anyone, I just think that the pussification you see in many bible-thumping men is a product of church culture and their own lack of strong male examples, not their faith.

 

[backbreaker]

How bout putting fault at the feet of the leaders in the church who are supposed to lead by example and shepard young men and women into how to be the right kind of Christian? Don't place a bunch of blame on honest men looking to be inspired when the leaders are not only hypocrites but have no idea how to get his followers to where they need to go. At 21, I gave.it a real try ...but time after time the church failed me ...pastors and preachers could not lead by example.

To use your analogy, the young man's trainer giving him a jacked up workout schedule and he doesn't get jacked and cut. Who's at fault there, the pt for not being qualified or the young man for being too trusting?

'

Because the leaders of the church really aren't the problem

The problem isn't that the leaders of the church aren't leading by example.. alot do, but some don't. not all church leaders are bad. Our church had what, like 6 pastors on staff and only one of them was really bad.

The problem is that men in general are this guillible in the first place.

I don't want to go on a Burroghs like rant here (no offense) but the world is a BETA factory. guys start off as kids watching chumpy TV shows and listening to their moms tell a young man how to treat a woman, beucdase the man or husband or father is no were to be found or if he is around is a cuckhold with a paycheck. Guy then goes off to college and is told learn! this is the key to *****! all those jocks aren't going to do ****, now it's time for you to turn the tables! get in debt! more debt! stay in school! get the 3rd degree!

all the while the guy is watching hot 18-22 year olds **** the frat guys, the athletes, the guys who were fourntate enough to learn a little about game, chuckling to himself they dont' get it, i will be swimming in ***** and they won't! beucse i am learning!

then the guy gets out of school and has 70k in debt, goes to law school only to find out he didn't read the scrolling text in the school advertisement.. lol yeah for you to be swimming in ***** you not only have to learn you have to graduate at the top of your class, so while you didn't do bad, you didnt' do great, here is your generic ass law degree and here is your job making 65k a year at your generic ass law firm lol, and here is your 600 dollar a month student loan payment you have to pay back, effectively cutting your salary to about 55k a year which is about the same amount of money that a post office employee that has been at work for 5 years or more makes wihtout the debt or time wasted. '

so the beta male now has his law degree and tries to build a social life with not having any game so he starts listening to everyone around him. go out, meet girls. he goes out and meets girls only to find that the smoking hot ones with options think he's kay but they think they can do better. they are interested in the richer or better looking guys or guys with actual game or ****, even just a guy with a backbone and a big ****. and the girls that he thinks he can honestly have a chance with, are cute but have borderline character issues, so he's forced to tread threw daunte's inferno of ***** to try to get laid but to no avail.

so a few years of this, he's dated a few BPD's, he's getting fustreted.. all the man has ever done is listen to what people tell him works and all he has is a lot of lotion and a lot of porn, debt, and no Gf lol. so now as the women start to get off the **** marry go round they start to file into to church to look for a man who can save them. the lawyer / beta male sees this as his salvation and jumps in with full vigor. he's evebn more pleasaed when he sees that he has some options. so he falls harder. he might even date or marry one. the woman has convinced herself that this is what she needs, and she's tired of playing games. she wants a "real man". he says he's a real man. he proposes, they get married.

only for 2 years later some dude off this site who is just alpha as **** comes along and throws her head for a spin, she doesn't know what came over her, she wants to **** his brians out, she does, and then the fustrated lawyer / AFC guy doesn't know what to do. he has litearlly tried everything and nothing has worked.


the problem in that, is not the church man. the church man is just one of manypit stops the beta male makes. the problem is the beta male.

 

[The Gambler]

I'm going to have to disagree with most of you here. TRUE biblical principles on marriage and the church espouse male leadership. Period, end of story. Not dictatorship, leadership. Many church-going religious men ALLOW their women to waltz all over them. And of course you get the built-in female pedestalization from the no-sex-before-marriage thing, which is more of an interpretation of scripture than a law.

The point is the AFCism you see in a lot of Christian men is more a product of church culture rather than Biblical principles and their relationship with Christ. Like eBracer was saying, you could come here and say this DJ thing is rubbish because of all the AFCs here....or that many self-proclaimed DJs post threads about newbie problems like flakes and one-itis. There is hypocrisy in every school of thought and every faith. It doesn't invalidate the faith itself or it's core principles. Remember religion is different than relationship. Religion is a construct based on laws and interpretation; relationship is a dynamic, living thing that produces positive change in an individual.

At any rate, I'm not trying to convert anyone, I just think that the pussification you see in many bible-thumping men is a product of church culture and their own lack of strong male examples, not their faith.

^^^^^ 100% this. ^^^^^

I remember for several years starting in the mid-1990s there was a movement in the church called "Promise Keepers." Basically, this ideology was supposed to teach Christian men how to be strong... such as strong heads of household, strong men of character and morality, etc. The fatal flaw of this movement was the very fact that the movement had to exist in the first place! Why wasn't the "regular" church teaching men these principles?

I'm not here to condemn the church as a whole, because each group of people has its own unique dynamic, even among churches within the same religion. But I have concluded over the years that the Victorian-era ideas still taught in most churches today do little for me (for those of you who don't know, the Victorian era was probably the most ridiculous facade of morality in human history).

I am a Christian and will never forsake the God I believe in. With that being said, I would probably be considered a rogue by others within the faith. I have no use for $5,000 tailored suits, fake friendships or crying in a pew on Sunday mornings. But if someone is a victim, needs a lift of spirit, or just a sincere brother to listen for a while, I'll be that guy.

The Gambler

 

[betheman]

'

the problem in that, is not the church man. the church man is just one of manypit stops the beta male makes. the problem is the beta male.

You seem hell bent on blaming the individual and yet, society, the media, the church are all stacked against the individual, massive odds but he is the problem? he has the problem but he is not the problem. its very easy to be wise after 'unplugging'. the church, the govt. the media all are 'the' problem, you cannot expect afcs/betas to just overcome that, there is too much social conditioning and pressure being applied

 

[backbreaker]

You seem hell bent on blaming the individual and yet, society, the media, the church are all stacked against the individual, massive odds but he is the problem? he has the problem but he is not the problem. its very easy to be wise after 'unplugging'. the church, the govt. the media all are 'the' problem, you cannot expect afcs/betas to just overcome that, there is too much social conditioning and pressure being applied

i can and i will blame the individual, because the AFC's/BETA's true problem is not lack of testosterone or lack of game or lack of anything lik ethat. but the inability to think for himself.

AFC's/BETA's are too afraid to go against the norm of anything to think objectively about anything, thus they follow whatever path they are lead to go down that benefits others. i have zero sympathy for that person just as i have zero sympathy for my former AFC self. Your/my condition is my own and not another mans.

 

[AW1983]

i can and i will blame the individual

Yes.

betheman, your argument is one commonly used by lefties to justify socialist policies..."oh, there's so much influence by media and society and an overall lack of guidance, so people NEED to be excused for poor choices/behavior and they NEED the government/society to take care of them!"

Sell that sh!t to the tourists, this is a forum concerned with how to be a Man. I'm guessing 95% of the guys on here were not "guided" here by a mentor or savior - they found it on their own, through their own effort.

I myself had to break away from a very controlling religion when I was younger, lost friends and family in the process. I've also started a few successful businesses in my life too. You know who helped me see the light and choose the right path for me??? Nobody but ME. And I've failed many times too. I don't blame anyone but ME.

The problem with your argument is a lack of individual accountability. Everyone loves a scapegoat (religion, govt, society, women, lousy parents, blah blah blah) so they don't have to take a long hard look in the mirror and rethink everything. And if you CHOOSE not to take that look in the mirror, I got no sympathy for ya.

Don't forget - all groups are comprised of individuals. The buck always stops at the individual level, and that individual's choices. Scapegoating is women's business, not ours.

 

[Warrior74]

But if someone is a victim, needs a lift of spirit, or just a sincere brother to listen for a while, I'll be that guy.

The Gambler

You know what? I do that too and I'm an atheist. Some people are really surprised to find that out about me in real life because I'm always the guy who helps people out, lends an ear, or spares a few bucks. You can be good without god, because it's in your basic nature as a person. You'd be good to other people no matter what religion you were raised in.


I probably shouldn't blame religion for making chumps like this, but I've been doing a lot of work with churches lately and I see this sort of thing so much now. I haven't been to church since I was 18. 20 years ago, with the maybe odd one off here or there when visiting a clients church. Now that I work with several churches, its just amazing how beta and pvssy begging it is. I have to keep my mask on tightly at some of these meetings and events. Hell as an atheist, the beta bothers me more than the religion, I can disregard the religion. Plenty of people don't believe in other religions, I just don't believe in one more than you. But the beta, ugh. Too much.

 

[ebracer05]

i can and i will blame the individual, because the AFC's/BETA's true problem is not lack of testosterone or lack of game or lack of anything lik ethat. but the inability to think for himself.

AFC's/BETA's are too afraid to go against the norm of anything to think objectively about anything, thus they follow whatever path they are lead to go down that benefits others. i have zero sympathy for that person just as i have zero sympathy for my former AFC self. Your/my condition is my own and not another mans.

We have to own our condition but it isn't always our fault. It isn't productive to displace the ownership of our situation to another individual or group, even if they really do own the fault.

But think about it like this - if I go to school like the state tells me to and happen to get placed in a bad school system and don't learn the math I'm supposed to, even if my grades are good, is it my fault that I didn't learn the math? This happened to my brother and he had to remediate math in college even though he had A's in all of his math classes in high school.

It's his problem, but I don't think it's his fault.

What about people who grow up in society and are improperly trained to believe things to be one way when they are actually another? Men's most trusted influences, their parents, teaching them incorrectly how to behave. Their fathers, usually absent, dead, or incompetent as a man fail to teach them what it means to be a man. Their religious institutions reinforce improper social programming. They are constantly fed lies by the media.

Come on man, who in the h*ll's fault is this really? Really?

It is definitely their problem and they are the only people who can correct it. But if the only words you heard during your development were wrong and you believed them, would is it your fault? Of course not.

Blame the individual for failing to change when confronted with information, not for being ignorant to begin with.

 

[mrRuckus]

You seem hell bent on blaming the individual and yet, society, the media, the church are all stacked against the individual, massive odds but he is the problem? he has the problem but he is not the problem. its very easy to be wise after 'unplugging'. the church, the govt. the media all are 'the' problem, you cannot expect afcs/betas to just overcome that, there is too much social conditioning and pressure being applied

It's a cycle though. The beta male conditioned by society is the beta male conditioning the next generation of beta males. If you aren't blaming him on one end, you have to blame him on the other end.

So this is where the problem is... the betas are who too stupid to wake the fvck up and realize what they believe and what they are doing does not work. They just keep doing more of the same. I mean, FVCK, I've tried explaining to other men certain things and they even agree with me at the time and are like "of course! you are sooo right!!," but do you see them put any of this stuff they've learned into action in real life? Fvck no.

 

[The Gambler]

You know what? I do that too and I'm an atheist. Some people are really surprised to find that out about me in real life because I'm always the guy who helps people out, lends an ear, or spares a few bucks. You can be good without god, because it's in your basic nature as a person. You'd be good to other people no matter what religion you were raised in.

I can tell you're that guy.... I see it right here with your posts in this forum.

I'll be honest with you.... I feel like the God I worship has little to do with most churches of today. Now please note, I'm not judging the heart of anyone who goes to church. Please understand that. All I know is the collective result of what I see -- and the modern-day institutions known as churches have failed at teaching practical guidelines for living to men, women and children alike. The most successful of churches today are nothing more than a feel-good dose of spiritual drugs, with the pastor basically being a cheer-leading "life coach."

Well, as the introvert thread from the other day so eloquently noted, I do not need a life coach. As far as cheer-leaders in my life go -- I'll try to refrain from making the obvious, hack jokes.

On a final note, let me mention that this "beta" mentality has been the norm for man for thousands of years. If you look at the history of civilization, the majority of people have always been followers. Sure, we always take note of the ones who bucked the trend and stirred up some sh*t, but these types of people were the exception... not the rule.

The Gambler

 

[backbreaker]

We have to own our condition but it isn't always our fault. It isn't productive to displace the ownership of our situation to another individual or group, even if they really do own the fault.

But think about it like this - if I go to school like the state tells me to and happen to get placed in a bad school system and don't learn the math I'm supposed to, even if my grades are good, is it my fault that I didn't learn the math? This happened to my brother and he had to remediate math in college even though he had A's in all of his math classes in high school.

It's his problem, but I don't think it's his fault.

What about people who grow up in society and are improperly trained to believe things to be one way when they are actually another? Men's most trusted influences, their parents, teaching them incorrectly how to behave. Their fathers, usually absent, dead, or incompetent as a man fail to teach them what it means to be a man. Their religious institutions reinforce improper social programming. They are constantly fed lies by the media.

Come on man, who in the h*ll's fault is this really? Really?

It is definitely their problem and they are the only people who can correct it. But if the only words you heard during your development were wrong and you believed them, would is it your fault? Of course not.

Blame the individual for failing to change when confronted with information, not for being ignorant to begin with.

all that a man achieves, and all that a man fails to achieve is a direct results of his own thoughts. yes i just quoted james allen but i believe that wholeheartley.

when men are not happy with their situations or circumstances in life they seek out ways to make htem better, regardless of where they are, how much money they have, or what they do or do not know. All a person who is not smart needs to become smart, is the will to learn, he doesn't need to go to a good school to learn, he just needs the will to figure out how to get the information he needs to thus better his situation.

yes have the deck stacked against them, but you have to figure out how to play the hand dealt to the best of your ability to win the game.

In a country where our first or 2nd best president, depending on who you talked to, didn't make it past elementary school, where the best 3rd baseman in the history of the major leagues couldn't even sleep at the same hotels as the rest of his team made and had to endure racism that none of could possibly conceive of having to endure, where a man who became the most gifted jazz musician in the history of jazz was not only black in the post civil war america, but was blind, i don't want to ****ing hear about a man not taking ownership of his situation

that's what men do. they take ownership. if they want something they go for it or figure out a walk, conveniently or inconveniently to get something.

 

[The Gambler]

that's what men do. they take ownership. if they want something they go for it or figure out a walk, conveniently or inconveniently to get something.

I hate to state the obvious, but if you go back to the very first post that started this thread -- that's EXACTLY what that guy is doing!

Now, is the guy's chosen path one that I agree with? Probably not. But regardless, he is a different man than he was a few years ago, and he will eventually see the results of his choice. Heck, after a few years of devastating AFC chumpdom, he may even wind up here.

 

[backbreaker]

I hate to state the obvious, but if you go back to the very first post that started this thread -- that's EXACTLY what that guy is doing!

Now, is the guy's chosen path one that I agree with? Probably not. But regardless, he is a different man than he was a few years ago, and he will eventually see the results of his choice. Heck, after a few years of devastating AFC chumpdom, he may even wind up here.

you could state the obvious and you'd be wrong.

he has figured out what he wants; ***** lol. his plan to get ***** is not find a girl, shower her with attention, show her that you are a real man that thinks of her as his better half. she has thus responded wtih not giving him the attention he wants, and pretty sure they haven't ****ed yet.

if you would actually read my post and stop trying to counter point ever thing i say you would see that the entire point i'm trying to make is that this guy's plan, is not his plan in the first place. that's the AFC's problem.


I did not get where i was business wise, by listening to anyone around me. In fact I pretty much did the opposite of what everyone told me i should do. I am not beating my chest, i'm simply showing that the only way to get from point A to your point B is to look at the situation objectively and you figure out what is your best way to get there; not what someone else tells you is the best way.

objectivly, it would not take a man long to realize that women in church are low hanging fruit on their last leg who are making Nessi a virtue. but these men aren't thinking objectivly. they are doing what everyone tells them they should be doing

his own thinking is not even his thinking; it's women group think.. this is the best he can do beucse he's never objectively looked at women and how to obtain them. thus i feel no sympathy for a guy who doesn't try to better his situation by thinking objectively.

 

[Findog]

It's a cycle though. The beta male conditioned by society is the beta male conditioning the next generation of beta males. If you aren't blaming him on one end, you have to blame him on the other end.

So this is where the problem is... the betas are who too stupid to wake the fvck up and realize what they believe and what they are doing does not work. They just keep doing more of the same. I mean, FVCK, I've tried explaining to other men certain things and they even agree with me at the time and are like "of course! you are sooo right!!," but do you see them put any of this stuff they've learned into action in real life? Fvck no.

I just have to jump in here: if being a "beta" male is so bad from the perspective of having success with women, then why do beta traits continue to survive from one generation to the next? If it was such a bad reproductive strategy, the only men left would be an amalgamation of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Jesse James and Sean Connery.

I would argue that in today's sexual marketplace, the more alpha you are, the better. But the truth is that for our father's generation and beyond, you didn't have concepts like "AFC" and not near as much attention was paid to how much of an alpha or beta you were. Back then, as long as you weren't a criminal or a low-functioning derelict, you'd almost have to try NOT to get a woman to agree to be your girlfriend or wife.

I just think most of this stuff is just a learning curve: most guys start out in their teens with just no clue of what works and what doesn't work with women. There a few naturals that get it right off the bat. They usually have some combination of looks and natural charm. They have success early, they gain experience with women, and they never struggle with women for the rest of their lives. For other guys, who are awkward and unsure of themselves, they have a steep learning curve from the beginning and it takes a LOT of trial and error to figure out a workable strategy for getting what you want.

 

[( . )( . )]

I just have to jump in here: if being a "beta" male is so bad from the perspective of having success with women, then why do beta traits continue to survive from one generation to the next?

Because unleashed hypergamy and c@ck carouselling has only been the standard average for the past 4 or so decades.

 

[Burroughs]

I just have to jump in here: if being a "beta" male is so bad from the perspective of having success with women, then why do beta traits continue to survive from one generation to the next? If it was such a bad reproductive strategy, the only men left would be an amalgamation of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Jesse James and Sean Connery.

I would argue that in today's sexual marketplace, the more alpha you are, the better. But the truth is that for our father's generation and beyond, you didn't have concepts like "AFC" and not near as much attention was paid to how much of an alpha or beta you were. Back then, as long as you weren't a criminal or a low-functioning derelict, you'd almost have to try NOT to get a woman to agree to be your girlfriend or wife.

the fact that you have to ask this question shows how ignorant men have become to the pages of history.

do you have to ask.

really.

its quite obvious actually.

until a 100 years ago....women were the property of men (no rights no property) mind and body...first the father then the husband.

there was no 'gaming', pua, or any of this faggot mind game sh!t don't call or text after 3 hours blah blah blah..women were owned thats it. simple.

women were meant to be ruled by men period end of story...they are like dogs fit only when they show absolute obedience.

but then elite men gave women rights...why? to halve men's wages...that was the factory system...you either payed men more or gave women less...guess which option they chose...in addiction dictators could easily sway women due to their emotional childlike state....so women were given the 'vote'.

Of course most faggotized modern men have forgotten these timeless truths as they shop for skinny jeans, band of outsider clothes, and fixie bikes ...to mankind's ultimate detriment.

 

[Findog]

the fact that you have to ask this question shows how ignorant men have become.

do you have to ask.

really.

its quite obvious actually.

until a 100 years ago....women were the property of men mind and body...first the father then the husband.

there was no 'gaming', pua, or any of this faggot mind game sh!t don't call or text after 3 hours blah blah blah..women were owned thats it. simple.

women were meant to be ruled by men period end of story...they are like dogs fit only when they show absolute obedience.

Of course most faggotized modern men have forgotten this timeless truth...to mankind's ultimate detriment.

I think most guys start off with a beta mindset and usually become hardened by experience with women into developing a harder edge....healthier boundaries, less likely to pedestalize women, less likely to fall over themselves doing favors for women just because they're hot, etc.

The more experience you get with women, the more you learn what works and what doesn't and what to look for when it comes to the few good ones that are actually LTR material.