Some Questions

[MacAvoy]

Some excellent posts Lady.

Purple, I've got a question for you. Did you see DashRock's thread about his g/f having a male friend at work?. If so, why are you trying to be that type of g/f? Now your b/f handled it perfectly but when he's sitting around talking about it with his guy friends, they're probably telling him the same thing all of us were telling Dash to do.

It only serves to push him away.

 

[Nelford]

Thank you for posting your concern here Purple-Haze. You just validated some of the points us DJ's have been making here on SS. You played a mine game with your BF. You might not of realize it without us pointing it out to you, but thats what you did.

Hand shake goes out to your BF for not reacting to it. That's a Mature Man!

 

[Purple-Haze]

Thanks for the welcome Lovely! Your posts were nothing short of sagacious! It's great to also get a woman's perspective (and an astute one at that).

I just want to say that men who are incredibly centered can be unnerving to us women - as we encounter them so rarely. Try to find the place within yourself where you can accept that with this man, you just ARE going to be at a loss sometimes. It can be very scary to feel this way when we care for a man - because we can feel like we are failing as women if we do not fully understand and grasp the complexities of the Man we care for.

You are not failing, Honey - you are just being given opportunities to learn how to better love him.

Be patient with yourself - it is okay to grow a better understanding of how to meet eachother's needs.

I suppose I'm still trying to figure out exactly what sort of man it is that I'm dealing with. I was just on the phone with him a little while ago (talking about something benign) and he said a few things to me, basically teasing me, that sent shivers of pleasure through me. Now if only I can capture this and bottle it. Ha!

As cheesy as this may sound, I do yearn to care for him and to understand him; I want to respect him as a man and nurture his masculinity. But I also want him to reciprocate by nurturing my feminine self (instead of getting me all flustered and crazy).

You know what it feels like sometimes? As if he is doling out his charm and love, bit by bit, to ensnare me in his web. I mean, I know he doesn't do this consciously...but something about the way he goes about it...makes me a little...crazy? Wow, I just realized I've been using the word crazy a bit in this thread.

I have learned that I am willing to be patient with this one. For whatever reason, he and I click.

It seems to me you are afraid you can't count on him to love you/desire you as you are finding your way (you are choosing the sexual desire scenerio - but I think this runs deeper - as Interceptor so wisely says: primal) - like you can't quite identify his innate strength - and feeling that strength in our Men is what makes us as women feel safe to give our love.

I can count on him for love but it's his inability to communicate it the way I want that I have a problem with. The times I have felt his masculinity, his "primal self", that raw urge to empower me, to love me are the times when I feel the most closet to him.

I used to thinK I was insane for wanting this. Some of my girlfriends think I've lost my mind... The married ones giggle and marvel at the change in me (well they perceive a change, but really, I've wanted wanted this sort of contrast with my mate - my feminine for his masculine - for some time now).

You stated that you found the following statement: "[w]e have had a very tumultuous R. We've been together for over a year and have had our share of drama. If he were here, he'd tell you that I'm the cause of 99% of the drama (which, maybe is partly true)", mentioned in my initiat post, "a bit disturbing."

Life has challenges and drama enough already to contend with - and add the genuine challenges of a relationship on top of them - creating a false/cheap drama is not productive (I would also say it is dishonest, and unkind to him as well, IMO)

I am only just reading what you are saying, so if this is harsh, please forgive me: but this man's emotions are not there to entertain you. If you are toying with him like you describe below - what motivation does he have to open up and be vulnerable with you? I wouldn't...

On a very human level - there is something exploitive about this dynamic you are describing - if I am understanding it correctly.

I think the needs you discuss below are not being met by the the button-pushing you are trying to do - and that is where some of your frustration may be sourcing from.

OK, I'll fess up and tell you that I have created drama to get a reaction out of him (not in this particular instance). Mind you, it's not a "fake" sort of drama. I don't say things for the sake of it. Rather, a situation will arise and I see it as an opportunity to bring some concerns to the table, so I focus on some minute detail and beat it to death.

There have been times when I've been a royal brat. Again, I was used to having things a certain way (as a result of being with my ex for many years). Now I don't mean to knock my ex, he's a fabulous guy (very decent human being) BUT he is what I consider an enabler or coddler in that he never challenged me; he accepted my behaviour as "me being me" and let it go. So when I got into this R, a lot of those bad habits followed.

I saw a change in my bf when this began to happen. He went from displaying his passion and his "in loveness" (as I call it) to being withdrawn and aloof. Now some of this is part of his nature and charm, some of it is a coping mechanism or a response to my behaviour. So yes, I realize the BS drama has to end. It's either that or I find myself someone else.

This sounds wonderful, as a man who challenges us to grow and be a better woman is a true gift. It sounds like you have a great guy.

If you are truly wanting to be a more self-aware Woman, then perhaps you can start by exercising some skills in monitoring your own behavior and be less concerned with manipulating him to react/behave in a certain way.

It sounds wonderful that he seems to give you the space to grow and learn while you are together. Do you recognize the rare gift this is from a Man?

He definitely challenges me! I look at the changes that have happened in my life and I realize that I have indeed made progress in terms of my self growth. What I love about this is that it's not a forced sort of invasive, "you must change" approach. He is subtle in his response and his "not putting up with it" has sort of forced me to deal with my own issues (well some of them anyway).

LOL I don't know about that. Sounds to me like he is holding up his end of the bargain just fine. It is just not in a way you fully understand, and because you do not understand it - you can't appreciate this about him.

It is okay that you don't fully understand it (and feel at a loss and unnerved).

He does at times. Sometimes he'll say or do something so incredibly sexy or masculine or sweet or loving (you get the idea) that it makes me weak in the knees. During moments like these, nothing matters, everything pales in comparison.

I don't understand it (yet) and chances are I may never fully get it. But I'd like to learn more so that I can apply what I learn to further this R on its way.

Again, these men that are steady are a rarity - so your experience being primarily limited to your ex who was highly reactive instead of responsive shows you how this man is different - but you still did not develop the skills needed to relate to the man you are with now. (And even with the skills - they can rattle the most centered of women LOL)

Remember each man is truly unique in and of himself. (Above and beyond the uniqueness of your man seeming to be a being a top 5%er - that meaning a man who ranks in that rare top 5% in the available pool of men out there - I know you know what I mean )

You are right in that I'm not used to someone like him. His responses are different, but they come from a sincere place (which is something I love). His "ways" do rattle my core, I can only hope my "ways" do the same to him.

It's strange in some ways but my bf reminds me a great deal of my father and brother (especially my brother). I adore my brother a great deal and have always admired him for that certain je ne sais quoi he possesses. It's funny how some men emit a certain charisma that is unforgettable.

Either that or I'm dealing with a fellow crazy.

 

[##17]

Now I know some of you will come down on me for trying to get a rise out of him by bringing up another guy. That was not my intention. I just wanted to tell him what was up...and to see how he felt about the situation (and yes, to also subtly remind him that other men find me attractive).

So you DID want to get a reaction out of him.

You put a test to him. That's what women instictively do. You wanted to check his involvement in your relationship and (getting sort of deep here) you wanted him to 'win you over again' from your horny male friend.

I'll give you a book suggestion "The Secret Psychology of Why We Fall In Love" by Dr. Paul Dubransky (sp). Most books of these kind aren't worth much, but he explains a lot.


EDIT: Interceptor's reponse was spot on. (I just read it.) You should still check out the book.

 

[LovelyLady]

Purple Haze writes: nurture his masculinity. But I also want him to reciprocate by nurturing my feminine self .

I just have a second right now, but consider the following:

You do not nurture his masculinity. That is his responsibility to build on his own. You support him in what he needs to do build/maintain it. You definitely never undermine it.

The same would be true for your feminity. That is your individual responsibility to tend to. And for him to support what you need to do in journey to grow in to your best Woman-self. And to never undermine that for you.


Nurture the relationship. Support your man.

 

[Purple-Haze]

I will be a bit forward here and say: I think it was your intention because you have already said that this is what you do.

It is okay to breathe and relax and accept that a reaction was exactly what you were wanting. If you can't stay with that as a basic truth, you may miss a great opportunity to grow here... because the desire for the reaction is only the symptom, but it really should be acknowledged that this is what you do because you believe the reaction you were trying to get from him would meet your needs.

Subtly??? Lawdy Lawd - if that is you being subtle, I'd hate to hear you being straightforward. LOL

Yes, I suppose that was my intention (seems I'm conceding more and more...).

Okay, here is a basic thing you should know about virtually all men: They love sex. They want sex with most women LOL. Okay? So I think you can safely deduce that your boyfriend knows there are men who want to have sex with you - as you are a woman. So - no need to to think that this is somehow new information or the sharing of this information strengthens your bond with him. Believe me, he sees women he is attracted to as often as your "friend" does.

So you're saying it was unnecessary to share this with him? If a girl hit on him, I like to know. Why is this any different for him?

(and as mentioned by others: WHAT are you doing being friends with - male or female - someone who is trying to undermine your relationship with your Man? THAT is something serious you may want to address. What is it about your character that makes you want to surround yourself with people who do not support and strengthen your primary realationship? What kind of a "friend" is this guy??? And although I digress from your topic at hand - why would your Man want to stay with a woman who chooses to keep alliances with a friend who so disrespects her, him, and your relationship as it's own entity?)

I refuse to be his friend if he undermines my R any further. I let it go this one time because I saw it as him testing his boundaries. If he pulls that ish again, I'll be sure to put him in his place. I have no problem cutting off this particular friendship if he continues to be an ignorant mule regarding my R.

Yes, there is much more to this and it is worth exploring. I think you may want to lift up all the layers in this interaction and look at what is going on deep within you - in your head and heart - and worry less about what is going on in his for awhile.

I think this may be the best advice for me to take. Surprisingly, I found some of the stuff on SS to be applicable to women as well.

I do need to establish some peace and calm in my life. Seems like I've chosen to surround myself with chaos for quite a while now...

It sounds like you are needing reassurance that he wants you. That he values you. Do you feel valued? Do you feel negated? Do you feel supported? Do you feel unsupported? Do you feel like he desires you sexually and can't get enough of you? Since you choose the dynamic of another man sexually wanting you - is there a lack of genuine passion in your relationship? Do NOT marry a man that you can not imagine yourself wanting to get creatively-crazy with if one of you ends up needing a walker when you are old and gray. You MUST have this - it is imperitive, as the bedroom is where you will be able to find yourselves back to eachother - or not - when words fail you. Which, regardless of how hard you try in a marriage - they will.

I do feel valued in that I know he is with me and is committed. I also know that he values me as a person and recognizes that I am a worthy mate. I have issues with him in the past over whether he sexually desires me (this was brought about by his aversion to my nagging and sudden clingyness, lack of time together, etc). This bothered me a great deal and being in an LDR just exacerbated the situation. We've managed to work through this though (but nothing substantive has occurred as we haven't seen each other in a few months).

He felt I was using sex as some kind of validation... Anyway, the discussions were a bit tense at first but now seem to be getting better. My last attempt at solving this issue (him knowing I was always available for sex and taking that for granted) was for me to suggest abstinence. While he initially didn't like the idea, he has agreed to try it out for the sake of oru R (to focus on the non-sexual parts of our R).

This discussion was eye-opening for me because he shared sentiments that I needed to hear (even though I knew, on some level, that he felt it). He expressed his sexual desire for me (both implicitly and explicitly) but also told me that if this is what I wanted, then fine. I suspect he thought I was bluffing, that once I saw him I could never go through with it (I assume his arrogance told him this).

His willingness to go along with this made me rethink my stance. Did I really want to stop having sex with him? Heck no!

Since having this discussion, my desire overpowered me to a point where I blurted out that I couldn't go through with it. So that is at a standstill (the discussion that is).

Additionally, how do you define the man "dominating" in the relationship? Do you recognize the difference in the way a Mature Man (which is what you are describing, so far anyway) holds the relationship steady and the way an immature man tries to?

Anyway, these are some thought and reflections I have. I hope they help in some way.

For me, a man dominating means he leads when necessary and I follow where appropriate. I'm naturally a dominant personality who is a bit of an extrovert, but when it comes to my mate, I like being the one who is dominated. This doesn't mean I want him to make decisions for me or that I want to worship the ground he walks on... I just value the "traditional" male-female relationship (similar to the one my parents have). I want to be his wife and in some ways, I do want to "submit" to him. Gawd...I can't believe I just wrote that. It's sort of weird admitting that.

Does this make sense?

 

[Purple-Haze]

Some excellent posts Lady.

Purple, I've got a question for you. Did you see DashRock's thread about his g/f having a male friend at work?. If so, why are you trying to be that type of g/f? Now your b/f handled it perfectly but when he's sitting around talking about it with his guy friends, they're probably telling him the same thing all of us were telling Dash to do.

It only serves to push him away.

Yes, I've read bits of that thread.

As I mentioned in a previous post (in response to Lady), I will NOT continue my friendship with my friend if he speaks to me that way again. I didn't initiate contact with him after he said this. When he contacted me, I responded as I normally would. When he informed me that his "feelings" were nothing more than just a momentary thought, I accepted it and told him that I'm glad we can move on from this.

Obviously this little exchange has changed the nature of my friendship with him.

I value my R with my bf above all other non-familial relationships. So if he does it again, I'll cut him off.

 

[Nighthawk]

So you told him you wanted to withhold sex for no good reason? You see how you're testing him and don't even realise what your doing? Your subconscious urge to test comes first, then you rationalize a reason for it. Again, this is behavior you have internalized from your previous (dysfunctional) relationship, and perhaps your parents.

edit -as well as from your irrational female mind of course...

 

[Purple-Haze]

So you DID want to get a reaction out of him.

You put a test to him. That's what women instictively do. You wanted to check his involvement in your relationship and (getting sort of deep here) you wanted him to 'win you over again' from your horny male friend.

I'll give you a book suggestion "The Secret Psychology of Why We Fall In Love" by Dr. Paul Dubransky (sp). Most books of these kind aren't worth much, but he explains a lot.


EDIT: Interceptor's reponse was spot on. (I just read it.) You should still check out the book.

Thank you for the book suggestion. I should check it out (I probably won't in the next little while, but maybe sometime in the summer).

And yes, Interceptor's post was very, very accurate and succinctly stated precisely what it is that I wanted from my bf.

 

[Purple-Haze]

This is a great thread.

Lovelady, you answered a question I had in the back of my mind for a while. I always wondered if a genuinly "good or qaulity type man" could actually scare off a women who is also close to being "good" ( for lack of a better word) because she very rarely encounters these types of men. I assume, yes.

This could be another thread, all its own.

The advice you gave PH would go along these lines. Hopefully PH will continue to give out the info so all these great posters can continue to dissect it. We can all learn from this type of thread. Especially when the OP seems to be honest and straight forward.

Thanks for the feedback logic. I've enjoyed having some of the posters' comments a great deal - it has helped me look at this through various sets of eyes/experiences.

 

[Purple-Haze]

Thank you for posting your concern here Purple-Haze. You just validated some of the points us DJ's have been making here on SS. You played a mine game with your BF. You might not of realize it without us pointing it out to you, but thats what you did.

Hand shake goes out to your BF for not reacting to it. That's a Mature Man!

Apparently so. Who knew I was sh1t testing him! You learn something everyday.

 

[Purple-Haze]

Purple Haze writes: nurture his masculinity. But I also want him to reciprocate by nurturing my feminine self .

I just have a second right now, but consider the following:

You do not nurture his masculinity. That is his responsibility to build on his own. You support him in what he needs to do build/maintain it. You definitely never undermine it.

The same would be true for your feminity. That is your individual responsibility to tend to. And for him to support what you need to do in journey to grow in to your best Woman-self. And to never undermine that for you.

Nurture the relationship. Support your man.

I think you misunderstood me. Perhaps "nurture" was the wrong word to use. What I meant was that in my appreciation of his masculine self I want to help him shine (ugh, I can't think of the right words right now...this is starting to sound like a cheesy newage infomercial...but you get what I'm saying, right?).

But yes, I do want to support him. Very much so.

 

[Purple-Haze]

So you told him you wanted to withhold sex for no good reason? You see how you're testing him and don't even realise what your doing? Your subconscious urge to test comes first, then you rationalize a reason for it. Again, this is behavior you have internalized from your previous (dysfunctional) relationship, and perhaps your parents.

edit -as well as from your irrational female mind of course...

Not withold...if we were going to do it, it would have been a mutual decision.

And yes, I agree, this was yet another test on my part. I think he figured I'd change my mind when I saw him and didn't really push the issue (which made me rethink it all).

This testing him or questioning things or nagging him about certain things is an impulse of mine that I am trying to control. I think this is partly because of certain behaviours I developed in my previous R. My mother has never tested my father. She's always giving me advice on how to be a good gf (when I was with my ex). I certainly didn't pick up any of her traits.

My irrational female mind. If you mean me as an individual, I can agree with that because some of my actions in this R has come from a place of irrationality. But let's not generalize (if that is infact what you were doing).

 

[##17]

Here's a very quick summary of our R. He was my first bf (from about 11 years ago) for about 2 months (so it wasn't really a relationship in the true sense). After him I went out with my ex (we broke up many times and ended up getting back together). Still, we spoke of marriage (though he knew I wasn't in love with him - we figured it'd work somehow). I go away to school. Things get worse. I break it off with him. Almost immediately, I get with my bf after coming across him again after 10 years. Things are heated and very, very intense. I go home for the summer. Meet him. Things are pretty amazing BUT I am still dealing with the breakup. Bf tries to help but also gives me a dose of "tough love".

I start to nag. He withdraws. I complain he's not attentive, he complains I annoy him at times. We fight. Make up. Fight. Make up. The fighting is usually me expressing some concern of mine and him telling me to "grow up." Eventually I stopped the nagging. He got better. Now we're in a better place.

This is what still gets me shaking my head about the female gender, even though I should be well used to it by now: You (or so many of you) women still define yourselves by your relationships. That's where you get your purpose in life. As soon as you get out of one relationship, you are in another. No time to develop yourselves as individuals. That is how strong your need to belong really is.

That you were thinking of marrying someone you knew you weren't in love with (and you both knew it) seems so...wow. No wonder the divorce rate is so high.

 

[Purple-Haze]

This is what still gets me shaking my head about the female gender, even though I should be well used to it by now: You women still define yourselves by your relationships. As soon as you get out of one relationship, you are in another. No time to develop yourselves as individuals. That is how strong your need to belong really is.

That you were thinking of marrying someone you weren't in love with (and you both knew it) seems...wow. No wonder the divorce rate is so high.

Again, let's not take the idiot mistakes I've made to be representative of the female gender as a whole.

I do not define myself through my Rs. My previous relationship was dead for a while, I just didn't have the heart to walk away (for many reasons, one of them being my family).

I agree that I didn't give myself any time to work on myself and sort through my tangled web of feelings. This was an error of judgment on my part.

Had I married my ex, I would have made it work. It's the sort of person I am. Divorce is not an option for me (unless he was abusive, etc). When I was with him, I had resigned myself to the fact that I wouldn't find that romantic, chemical kind of love - and because I didn't know any better, I accepted it.

 

[##17]

Again, let's not take the idiot mistakes I've made to be representative of the female gender as a whole.

I do not define myself through my Rs. My previous relationship was dead for a while, I just didn't have the heart to walk away (for many reasons, one of them being my family).

I agree that I didn't give myself any time to work on myself and sort through my tangled web of feelings. This was an error of judgment on my part.

Had I married my ex, I would have made it work. It's the sort of person I am. Divorce is not an option for me (unless he was abusive, etc). When I was with him, I had resigned myself to the fact that I wouldn't find that romantic, chemical kind of love - and because I didn't know any better, I accepted it.

If I had a dollar for every time a woman used one of the sentences you wrote in this post...

At least you are honest (although even though you disagree, it totally does come across that you do define yourself through your relationships, which is what most women do).

 

[Purple-Haze]

If I a dollar for every time a woman said used one of the sentences you wrote in this post...

"Divorce is not an option for me." You sounds just like a girl that I was with for two years. She was, well, divorced, and yet she still said that.

Well my background is such that divorce is a kind of social suicide. Unless he beat me or cheated on me, I wouldn't have divorced him.

Trust me on that one.

 

[##17]

Well my background is such that divorce is a kind of social suicide. Unless he beat me or cheated on me, I wouldn't have divorced him.

Trust me on that one.

Yeah, right.

 

[Purple-Haze]

Yeah, right.

Gah. OK, let me try this one last time.

When I marry, it is final. No one in my family has gotten a divorce.

Me getting a divorce is NOT an option (just because I get bored with my H or we fight a lot, etc). I'd have to have a tangible reason for it to be socially acceptable.

 

[##17]

Gah. OK, let me try this one last time.

When I marry, it is final. No one in my family has gotten a divorce.

Me getting a divorce is NOT an option (just because I get bored with my H or we fight a lot, etc). I'd have to have a tangible reason for it to be socially acceptable.

And I don't believe you. Anyone who would marry someone she isn't in love with is lying (or doesn't know herself well enough) when she says that.

EDIT: OK, you might not divorce. But you WOULD probably cheat on the side when you meet a guy who DOES light your passion.