She called me cheap and "too aggressive"!

[Wyldfire]

Wyldfire, as someone who has agreed with you many times, your double-standards have been thoroughly established. 'She treated him well by having sex with him' ha. The free food has blinded your logic

I have dated about a billion quality women and none have them have ever expected me to pay for all the meals, and the ones that did either changed their tune or were shown the door. Anyway I've always been the type to suggest running off before the bill arrives.

And am I the only one who thinks the chick in the original email exchange is desperate for it?

I was making my arguments in terms like that because I was attempting to make a point to a young guy.

Why is no one willing to answer why a guy who wants to go dutch can't just tell the girl he expects that right when he asks her out? I've posed this question a good 20 times in this thread yet not a one of you will respond. Perhaps that is because you all know that women do expect that if a man asks her out that he will pay for the date and you know that if you tell her up front she has to pay for herself that she probably will not go out with you? Wouldn't that be a much easier and quicker way to eliminate gold diggers and women who are greedy? As I've said repeatedly...I wouldn't at all mind going dutch as long as the guy let me know when he asked me out. If I could afford going out and I liked the guy...I would still go. However, if he didn't make that clear ahead of time I would leave and not see him again.

The girl he went out with is trashy...there is no arguing that. However, as trashy as she was...she was justified in not wanting to see him again and perceiving him as cheap. He didn't let her know when they went to dinner that she would have to pay for her own meal. Clearly she was under the impression that he would pay or she would not have been so bothered as to mention it. He even asked for her to give back the beer he left at her place. And yes, from a guy's standpoint...he DID get what he was after. She wanted to be shown some appreciation by being treated to dinner after having sex with him. She decided she didn't like how he treated her and his unwillingness to do something so basic as treat her to a meal and decided not to see him anymore for that reason. He asked her why she lost interest in him and she told him quite honestly.

He wanted sex and she wanted him to buy her dinner. He didn't give her what she wanted so she wants to find some guy who will give her what she wants. He has no right to be pissed over that...and that's what it all boils down to.

 

[Socialreject]

Usually they just say either yes or no and give me a questioning look...and some ask if it matters to which I say that yes, it does. If they answer no I will immediately lose interest in them because I am pretty repulsed by foreskin. As a very visual woman, it does matter. I can't be with a man whose penis I find repulsive. Yes, it's shallow...but oh well...it's no different than a guy who won't date a woman whose body turns them off.

HAHA! OMG, i would split my sides i think . No seriously, i understand how sometimes tiny things can repulse you. I find huge nipples totally repulsive, but yeah i have never actually asked a women if she has huge nipples or not! I think that might land me more slaps than honest answers, eventhough, yeah, basically... it's just a question right? ^^

Listen...going dutch is perfectly acceptable IF that is cleared up prior to actually going on the date. The point I am attempting to make that essentially all of you are completely ignoring is that I'm saying it's unacceptable to wait until it's time to pay to let the person you asked out know that you aren't paying for them. Most men do pay for the woman they invite out and most women are going to assume you will do the same. If you don't do that you really need to let her know ahead of time to avoid her feeling embarassed or misled and uncomfortable...or worse...without any money to pay for herself.

Nah, i'm not ignoring your point really... just saying that i think discussing stuff like this is a bit embarrasing and i would much rather totally avoid it UNTILL a point where i can just pay for the dinner and feel right doing so. I mean come on... "hey, yeah want to go to this place, it's really great food... oh hey btw, you ARE paying for your own food right?!"... Pfff, come on lol . Nah totally not my style! If you end up in at a dinner table with me, that means something and i won't have to ask if you can pay your way. I've had women offering to pay their share... even offering to pick up the bill, but i usually refuse unless they really insist.

Imho, it's better to stay on good terms (if at all possible) then to bust someone into disliking you if the dates don't work out and discussions about paying bills is a pretty bad start imho.

 

[The Juan and only]

Not at all...I have never experienced a man not expecting to pay for the date. Never. I was actually shocked by the original poster's behavior...and I do find it to be seriously lacking in class and taste. Take into account that I am pretty old fashioned as well. To me...this practice you are speaking of is completely BIZARRE.

Now, upon getting more information about this it became clear that he didn't even warn the girl that she had to pay for herself. That is what I'm focused on now because I just think it's blatantly wrong not to be honest about that policy up front at the time you ask her to go out.

yeah ok, i see what you're saying. Some women (because of social norms) might expect to have their food bought for them, and if they come unprepaired to pay then sure, I'll cover the costs; nothing is set in stone. However, a woman who repeatedly refuses to pay for herself and takes advantage of my generousity needs an attitude re-adjustment.

Perhaps guys should make a clear that they won't be paying, but I also think that women shouldn't have a problem with guys who don't. I mean, why should guys pay for her stuff? especially in modern society where women are equally as affluent as men (well practically).

 

[squirrels]

Whatever happened to the quote from squirrels i believe... about the payment for having sex with me is MY sex.

Always nice to come back to a forum and see your quotes COMPLETELY bent out of context.

Not wanting to buy a beer for a girl doesn't make you cheap. Quibbling over retrieving the remnants of a 6-pack from a girl's fridge...that is EXTREMELY cheap.

It's one thing to not want to invest in a girl you just met. It's another thing entirely to act like a couple of beers is really THAT big a deal. Remember, a fun relationship is one where money, however you decide to work it out, isn't an issue. You made it an issue...BAM you're cheap.

It's one thing if she had your Playstation or something. F**k a couple of beers. The last two girls I had over my house left sh!t in my fridge and I wouldn't think twice about offering it to the next girl who came along.

But we (including this girl) all see what you're doing...you're pissed off because she's not returning your calls all of a sudden so you're gonna "take your beer and go home" to get back at her. It's lame and I don't blame her one bit for responding the way she did.

Take the sex for what it was and learn to chill.

 

[Desdinova]

There's an easy solution to this...don't go out on a date that costs money until you determine if she's decent or not.

You've just killed your argument. What you've just stated was always the intention, and the reason why we won't spend money on women in the beginning. BECAUSE MOST OF THEM AREN'T WORTH IT.

I don't date ugly men, either. I'm extremely shallow about looks and don't have a problem admitting it. However, looks alone doesn't cut the mustard.

Then why are you being hypocritical? You say that men shouldn't be shallow about a woman's looks, but you have every right to be?

Men need to look beyond the tip of their dyck when choosing to pursue a woman and date her.

Try telling me this when you grow a penis.

One thing we try to accomplish on this website is to develope an understanding on why women are the way they are. We don't necessarily want them to change because we know they're different than men. However, instead of you understanding the way men act the way they do, you insist that they should change.

Sorry to say that you're just like most other women out there.

.I can spot a trashy man in about 5 minutes. I can spot a trashy woman in about 5 minutes.

And you've already forgotten about your "it's what's on the inside that counts" bull5hit.

Both men and women today expect instant gratification, are incredibly selfish, have a sense of entitlement and not much in the way of a sense of responsibility.

This is the usual generalization about GenX, and you've fallen for it. GenX are proving to be quite the opposite. Let's get some quotes!

http://www.jour.unr.edu/outpost/specials/genx.overvw1.html

This stereotypical definition leads society to believe that Generation X is made up of cynical, hopeless, frustrated and unmotivated slackers who wear grunge clothing, listen to alternative music and still live at home because they cannot get real jobs. It is a label that has stuck, stereotypes and all.

http://www.albany.net/~genxtv/define.html

"I just hate the label in general," replied David Schwimmer, who plays Ross on the hit sitcom about six twentysomethings. "Because to me it connotes a kind of slacker and all my peers are aggressively pursuing either jobs, relationships, or just trying to come to grips with their identities. And no one is kind of just laying back going, 'Let it happen, we're Generation X.'"

Generation X is not synonymous with "slacker," but to many people these words have come to mean the same thing. That's what happens when the media names a generation after a piece of fiction

Do a search on GenX, and you'll pretty much get the same myth vs fact.

To finish off, you're continuously contradicting yourself and being hypocritical. I'm done debating with you. You remind me so much of my 60 year old mother, it's scary.

 

[Broham]

I was making my arguments in terms like that because I was attempting to make a point to a young guy.

Why is no one willing to answer why a guy who wants to go dutch can't just tell the girl he expects that right when he asks her out? I've posed this question a good 20 times in this thread yet not a one of you will respond. Perhaps that is because you all know that women do expect that if a man asks her out that he will pay for the date and you know that if you tell her up front she has to pay for herself that she probably will not go out with you? Wouldn't that be a much easier and quicker way to eliminate gold diggers and women who are greedy? As I've said repeatedly...I wouldn't at all mind going dutch as long as the guy let me know when he asked me out. If I could afford going out and I liked the guy...I would still go. However, if he didn't make that clear ahead of time I would leave and not see him again.

The girl he went out with is trashy...there is no arguing that. However, as trashy as she was...she was justified in not wanting to see him again and perceiving him as cheap. He didn't let her know when they went to dinner that she would have to pay for her own meal. Clearly she was under the impression that he would pay or she would not have been so bothered as to mention it. He even asked for her to give back the beer he left at her place. And yes, from a guy's standpoint...he DID get what he was after. She wanted to be shown some appreciation by being treated to dinner after having sex with him. She decided she didn't like how he treated her and his unwillingness to do something so basic as treat her to a meal and decided not to see him anymore for that reason. He asked her why she lost interest in him and she told him quite honestly.

He wanted sex and she wanted him to buy her dinner. He didn't give her what she wanted so she wants to find some guy who will give her what she wants. He has no right to be pissed over that...and that's what it all boils down to.

This is the kind of behavior that disrupts the integrity of the board and why having female members probably isn't the best idea. We have all these threads about not supplicating and owing anything to the girl and acting like we're the prize, and then you come along and imply that the girl is doing US a favor by gracing us with her presence and that there's some unwritten code that we must adhere to if we want to get sex, or even a damn second date. That is complete bs and a mindset that most "don juans" would never deal with, although I'm sure if you posted your thoughts on Askmen.com, most of the guys would agree with you.

Listen, both dates were filled with some very stimulating conversation and by no means was this girl "trashy". In her defense, she was sweet and just submitting to her sexual urges. In the end, I gave her great sex and stimulating conversation. It was a win-win, but she decided to act shallow for whatever reason and ruin it over money. This is one reason why men hate women: unpredictable, illogical, unnecessary behavior.

 

[Wyldfire]

HAHA! OMG, i would split my sides i think . No seriously, i understand how sometimes tiny things can repulse you. I find huge nipples totally repulsive, but yeah i have never actually asked a women if she has huge nipples or not! I think that might land me more slaps than honest answers, eventhough, yeah, basically... it's just a question right? ^^




Nah, i'm not ignoring your point really... just saying that i think discussing stuff like this is a bit embarrasing and i would much rather totally avoid it UNTILL a point where i can just pay for the dinner and feel right doing so. I mean come on... "hey, yeah want to go to this place, it's really great food... oh hey btw, you ARE paying for your own food right?!"... Pfff, come on lol . Nah totally not my style! If you end up in at a dinner table with me, that means something and i won't have to ask if you can pay your way. I've had women offering to pay their share... even offering to pick up the bill, but i usually refuse unless they really insist.

Imho, it's better to stay on good terms (if at all possible) then to bust someone into disliking you if the dates don't work out and discussions about paying bills is a pretty bad start imho.

So basically...you expect that you will pay and don't do what the guy who started the thread did. Yeah, it's uncomfortable to discuss the paying thing before hand...but it's even more uncomfortable to wait until you have to pay for her to find out you aren't paying for her too. In all honesty...it's really no wonder this girl was left upset by that. I think most women would be. I know I would be.

 

[Wyldfire]

Because women will think we're cheap, Hon. And, of course, that means chances for post-dinner sex are less likely to occur...Say what you want about women and money; truth is, most woman want to be provided to some extent, and most HB's ARE being provided finances by some male...

"Hey, I'd really like to do something with you but I'm a little low on cash right now. If you don't mind going dutch I'd love to have dinner with you tomorrow night." ...what is so damn hard about saying something like that? If the girl likes you she will not say no to going dutch. However, if a girl likes you and you invite her out to dinner and tell the server "separate checks, please" she is going to have a much lower opinion of you instantly...because women DO assume the man will pay unless he says otherwise...and it's better to warn her before hand then leave her feeling embarassed and uncomfortable on the date.

 

[Maximus Rex]

Why is that men aren't suppose to expect after a date, but women expect us to pay and give them the whole "boyfriend," treatment. Isn't that a bit hyprocritical?

 

[squirrels]

So basically...you expect that you will pay and don't do what the guy who started the thread did. Yeah, it's uncomfortable to discuss the paying thing before hand...but it's even more uncomfortable to wait until you have to pay for her to find out you aren't paying for her too. In all honesty...it's really no wonder this girl was left upset by that. I think most women would be. I know I would be.

Just like women...always want to discuss everything beforehand and get it all planned out...then they complain that the romance and spontanaiety isn't there. :crazy:

Bottom line is that if this dude wanted his beer he should've took it with him when he left. This has nothing to do with money. It's bullsh!t is what it is. He's using it as an excuse to 1) see her again and 2) take something away from her.

As far as paying for a woman...the guy pays for the date. Notice those last two words..."the date". This doesn't mean that he buys drinks for her at a bar, or pays when they meet up with a bunch of friends...a DATE date, one-on-one premeditated, the guy pays.

At this point, you've already GOT the girl. It's not paying for a girl that's AFC...it's when you're trying to BUY HER FAVOR by paying for her. Women can tell the difference.

Two exceptions:

-When the amount of money is enough that payment NEEDS to be discussed in advance. For example, if you're going away for a weekend and need to split hotel costs.

-When you know she doesn't respect you as anything more than a free meal/drink/etc...balls to that. And you should be able to recognize that kind of disinterest in a woman if you're going to play the game with them.

 

[Wyldfire]

You've just killed your argument. What you've just stated was always the intention, and the reason why we won't spend money on women in the beginning. BECAUSE MOST OF THEM AREN'T WORTH IT.

Not quite, Des...if you don't know if the girl is decent yet, don't take her to dinner at all. Go for coffee...take a walk, go to the beach...do something that doesn't cost over $5 or is free until you determine if she's worth a dinner date.

Then why are you being hypocritical? You say that men shouldn't be shallow about a woman's looks, but you have every right to be?

I didn't say men have to sacrifice looks...I said they need to look beyond a woman's looks to make sure they are decent too. No, I'm not being hypocritical. I'm shallow about looks, yes...but I also make sure the guy is decent too. If he's not...I don't want him, no matter how hot he may be. Guys tend to just stop at the looks and they end up with trashy women because of that. Of course guys want to be attracted to the girl, and they should be...but they should also actually LIKE her too, ya know?

Try telling me this when you grow a penis.

One thing we try to accomplish on this website is to develope an understanding on why women are the way they are. We don't necessarily want them to change because we know they're different than men. However, instead of you understanding the way men act the way they do, you insist that they should change.

Sorry to say that you're just like most other women out there.

I'm not telling anyone to change...I'm telling them to THINK, make wiser choices and pay more attention to what's going on around them.

And you've already forgotten about your "it's what's on the inside that counts" bull5hit.

What's on the inside counts...for sure...but so does what's on the outside.

This is the usual generalization about GenX, and you've fallen for it. GenX are proving to be quite the opposite. Let's get some quotes!

http://www.jour.unr.edu/outpost/specials/genx.overvw1.html

This stereotypical definition leads society to believe that Generation X is made up of cynical, hopeless, frustrated and unmotivated slackers who wear grunge clothing, listen to alternative music and still live at home because they cannot get real jobs. It is a label that has stuck, stereotypes and all.

http://www.albany.net/~genxtv/define.html

"I just hate the label in general," replied David Schwimmer, who plays Ross on the hit sitcom about six twentysomethings. "Because to me it connotes a kind of slacker and all my peers are aggressively pursuing either jobs, relationships, or just trying to come to grips with their identities. And no one is kind of just laying back going, 'Let it happen, we're Generation X.'"

Generation X is not synonymous with "slacker," but to many people these words have come to mean the same thing. That's what happens when the media names a generation after a piece of fiction

Do a search on GenX, and you'll pretty much get the same myth vs fact.

To finish off, you're continuously contradicting yourself and being hypocritical. I'm done debating with you. You remind me so much of my 60 year old mother, it's scary.

Des...I'm not sure what you're connecting those quotes with. I honestly don't see where they apply at all. And if you don't want to debate this with me, that's your choice.

 

[flippinfreak]

This is way too annoying for my tastes...

Horrible DJ's who recognize the need to be subtle, versus rAFC's who are coming to terms with surprises and principles.

Wyldfire, these guys are arguing the fact that they don't want to pay the whole cost, and if a girl wants them to, she is a money grubber.

To everybody else who is feeding Wyldfire's 7000 post ego

Stop *****ing about a few dollars. Women care about priorities, if they don't know what your priorities are, don't surprise her with a lifestyle decision at the last second.

Of course there are going to be the women who will flake on you for offering to go Dutch(Oh, he has no money, he ain't no prize) and there are those that will(I was raised a feminist, we are equal, we should be the same in every aspect, I do not feel sexy, because he gave me a negative compliment).

This thread has turned into one person making a point, and another arguing from personal preferences. I guess it may be beneficial to argue with a 40 year old woman's preferences in her dating life conerning LTR material, though I believe that is not what 90% of you are actually looking for.

One thing that Everybody here who has over a year of experience on this site has to do is...

STOP TRYING TO FORCE YOUR OPINION ON OTHER PEOPLE

and

START THINKING FOR YOURSELF

The think for yourself is obvious in one context. Which one is that?

Women and men, won't change their minds if somebody forces it upon them. They must feel it inside, they must come to reason about the change, and they must feel the desire to seek it.

Once you see an opening that you can help in, take it, if it's in your best interests. Otherwise, stop trying to look at Wyldfire as a woman who's mind is wrong, she is high maintenance, and very intelligent. Rare and experienced in the way of the DJ. Though she does not teach Speed seduction, nor short term success secrets. She argues on merit, and how to stand up for yourself and express alpha male experiences.

Wyldfire, stop trying to convince these guys, they won't get the hint if you continue to berate them when they see you as the enemy. In your words you are arguing for them to change their minds... If you want to change the way somebody feels about something, instead of the way you think, you have to make them realize the truth, not JUST read it... Though you did hit the most opportune moment on the head with your above response, well if you are really insecure(as most rAFC's won't admit to being), to ensure the date and still be cheap...

However, if a girl likes you and you invite her out to dinner and tell the server "separate checks, please"

IT IS CHEAP IF YOU DEMAND MONEY BACK AFTER YOUR DATE IS FINISHED

As for Broham, the originator of this thread...

He is *****ing because the girl won't give him his beer that he left at her house.

NOT ABOUT splitting the tab on the date

 

[Scrumtulescence]

Dude...she had sex with you on the first date and you didn't offer to treat her to dinner on the second date?

Dude...he had sex with her on the first date and she didn't offer to treat him to dinner on the second date?

Wow, that was easy.

 

[picard]

what is the meaning of term "going dutch" ? I am lost on this slang expression.

 

[DJDamage]

Going Dutch means paying seperate bills.

 

[Socialreject]

So basically...you expect that you will pay and don't do what the guy who started the thread did. Yeah, it's uncomfortable to discuss the paying thing before hand...but it's even more uncomfortable to wait until you have to pay for her to find out you aren't paying for her too. In all honesty...it's really no wonder this girl was left upset by that. I think most women would be. I know I would be.

Yeah that's what i am saying. I just arrange it so it's never a point of argument. When i get to this point in the dating game i just assume i will pay, if they insist otherwise i won't be a dyck and insist to have it my way. But it is nice to know that your date has atleast considered the fact of paying for herself, even if i don't expect it, it's definitly another star in my book. And i have to say that most of the women i've dated have offered to pay half or even the whole dinner. So i'm pretty confident that the way i handle my dates filters out most of the users who just want free drinks and meals

Anyways, i think the topic has completely swung to a whole new direction now since i can barely remember what the OP was all about. ^^

Oh wait i do... "i was dumped and now i want my beer back cause i wanna ***** at her or maybe talk to her again", no offence, but chill out seriously

 

[grr]

Why is no one willing to answer why a guy who wants to go dutch can't just tell the girl he expects that right when he asks her out? I've posed this question a good 20 times in this thread yet not a one of you will respond. Perhaps that is because you all know that women do expect that if a man asks her out that he will pay for the date and you know that if you tell her up front she has to pay for herself that she probably will not go out with you? Wouldn't that be a much easier and quicker way to eliminate gold diggers and women who are greedy? As I've said repeatedly...I wouldn't at all mind going dutch as long as the guy let me know when he asked me out. If I could afford going out and I liked the guy...I would still go. However, if he didn't make that clear ahead of time I would leave and not see him again.

Ok, so everyone is thinking about this like its a goddamn science experiment. Its not, its a (or was a) relationship. Debating whether its ok to go dutch, announce it beforehand, etc, etc is a waste of time because in the end results are all that matter. Intelligent people have a bad habit of concentrating on intent and situations, when they are all subjective whereas stuff like results actually matter.

There is a valid, logical reason why stereotyping is considered bad, people change all the time. We can make all these claims saying we're a chivalrous ***** or a badass, but the fact remains throughout our lives we'll probably be a little of both at any given time. Whether we intend to be these archetypes doesn't matter. The situations we vocally express these archetypes doesn't matter. Our delivery does.

Tbpfh when I read the part about her joking about sending you the beer in the mail it looks like you drop the ball in your next reply. She's flirting playfully over a written form of communication, why would you respond with an unwitty two sentence reply? It seems like you were pretty ho-hum about the entire thing, so she lost interest. Case closed.

 

[Nighthawk]

She was totally flirting, a little shyt test that was easily passable. Joking about the beer is a good one, it implies you don't value her. But to be actually whining about a couple of cans IS cheap, whatever the genders involved.

I hate the phrase 'going dutch.' As do, I imagine, the gold-diggers of Holland.

"Hurty-gurty Sven, you vill be paying for dinner, ya?"

"Nein my little tulip, ve Amsterdamians vill have none of your meal-***** tricks here. Go try Luxembourg, her-der-her-de-gur."

 

[Gonzalo]

Damn, WF's advice is particularly more way off than usual in this one.

So... have sex, then buy her a meal, WTF? You think getting the pink is a green light to go into supplication mode? That's as bad, if not worse, as buying her dinner in order to get some. You're confusing these kids, woman.

Myself, I wouldn't ask her out to eat, but rather something more simple. I don't really care about watching her chew, I'd rather see her suck.

 

[Wyldfire]

This is the kind of behavior that disrupts the integrity of the board and why having female members probably isn't the best idea. We have all these threads about not supplicating and owing anything to the girl and acting like we're the prize, and then you come along and imply that the girl is doing US a favor by gracing us with her presence and that there's some unwritten code that we must adhere to if we want to get sex, or even a damn second date. That is complete bs and a mindset that most "don juans" would never deal with, although I'm sure if you posted your thoughts on Askmen.com, most of the guys would agree with you.

Listen, both dates were filled with some very stimulating conversation and by no means was this girl "trashy". In her defense, she was sweet and just submitting to her sexual urges. In the end, I gave her great sex and stimulating conversation. It was a win-win, but she decided to act shallow for whatever reason and ruin it over money. This is one reason why men hate women: unpredictable, illogical, unnecessary behavior.

Being a gentleman and being up front and honest about making your "dates" pay their own way when you ask them out is NOT supplicating. If you honestly believe that is then you have an awful lot to learn. It's called having common courtesy, etiquette and manners.