people are good

[ketostix]

The only thing that all human motivation being selfish implies is that... all human motives are selfish. Beyond that there are plenty of hairs to be split.

Although, I think, like I said before that people are mostly self-interested, a mix of bad and good with a tendency to be more bad than good. I think here you're getting into semantics. Define selfish. Again I would not consider it "selfish" doing something very good for another person and the only thing you get in return is possibly a good feeling. That's just a minor amount of self-gratification or self-interst. A person who is truely selfish not only wouldn't do something good for another without receiving a better deal in the first place, they also would feel bad if someone else even benefited as a side-effect to their actions. And I'm pretty sure some people do good things for the purpose of doing the right thing without getting or feeling anything in return. To say ALL motivations are selfish is saying genorosity doesn't exist. It's a continuum. I think it is a misnomer to use the word selfish to describe all motivations.

 

[Quiksilver]

The true nature of a man is decided in the conflict between his conscious mind and desires of his subconscious.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

The true nature of a man is decided in the conflict between his conscious mind and desires of his subconscious.

And all this time I thought it was from what he orders to drink at a bar....

 

[aliasguy]

The true nature of a man is decided in the conflict between his conscious mind and desires of his subconscious.

I like this post. It raises very interesting questions. Here are a few:

---- Is "conscious" mind "good," and "unconscious" mind "bad"? Or is the reverse true? Why?

---- If the first is true, then does that mean that strict adherence to the letter of the law, strict adherence to logic, and rejection of "deep" emotions are "better" than compassion, mercy, flexibility, etc.?

---- If the second is true, then does that mean that whims, flights of fancy, and manifestations of the Id are "better" than well-planned ideas and efforts which are based on strong evidence showing that they clearly benefit the "greater good"?

I don't know how to give specific answers to these questions. I would recommend use of the Zen concept of "MU," combined with an alternative view of Freud's writings to give a general response, though.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not sure that the quote (although it sounds cool) really MEANS anything in the real world.

Unless the meaning is: "We don't have to be slaves to our instincts." And, if THAT is what is meant, I would agree with that sentiment.

 

[feelingloved]

The unconscious is reactive. The conscious is generally empathetic, by association with awareness.
Through empathy and awareness, we can choose good actions.
An enlightened person sees some value and responsibility in remaining aware and present. It is good to do because, generally good results from it.
Most evil is done unconsciously. But unconscious mind, is a natural undeveloped state, neither inherently good or bad.

 

[aliasguy]

Ducaro, Feelingloved, and Happyguy --------- (I'm gonna combine these thoughts, please forgive.)

OK, consciousness is entwined with empathy, through awareness, if I understand you correctly. So, then, you would agree that "consciousness" is required for empathy. I don't disagree. Awareness and being "present" is good, in your view, no?

What about the man in a position of power? He can be kind, or he can be vicious. How conscious is he? Less or more than you or I? Does his "level" of consciousness have ANY bearing on his behavior? Was Stalin or Hitler less "conscious" than Roosevelt, Churchill, Eisenhower, or Montgomery? Was either Stalin or Hitler "less conscious" because he murdered millions?

You see where I'm going, here? Is "consciousness" alone a "good" thing? Really? And is it really TRUE that "most" evil is done unconsciously? How do you KNOW that? And, if it is TRULY "unconscious," is it truly EVIL? Doesn't "evil" require some kind of intent? Or, maybe no, maybe it is simply an absence of "good."

I'm not sure. What do YOU think?




Ducaro, your ideas are in NO way a detour, here. I welcome them, and you are hitting at the core of this. But I think you see it in a different way than I. (And that's ok.)

I disagree that we have developed some kind of "magic," with which we can "transcend" the physical and material. I think we are indeed still ANIMALS. Smart, (often) insightful animals, but animals nonetheless. Yes, we have been fortunate enough to have developed intelligence, culture, rule of law, morals, ethics, etc., BUT, we still live in the REAL world. A world where the bottom line is ----HE WHO WINS, WINS.


Little babies --- we LOVE them for their innocence, you are CORRECT. But how long does it take for a kid to learn how things are? They start lying by 2 or 3. They only do this because the world is as it is. This is just reality.

I'm not saying that kids are born with a drive to "dominate" and "conquer," I'm saying that kids, young men, grown men, WHOEVER, eventually learn that if they want to "win" (whatever that REALLY means, and I'm not saying it's a GOOD thing) then they'd better get their ducks in a row, get their chinstrap buttoned up, get their socks on straight, and get out there and work hard and BEAT the other guy.

Meanness nor selfishness is not essential, but acceptance of the realities of life IS. Maybe the way things are is indeed "pitiable," but it is the way it is.

We don't HAVE to be ASSH*LES, but we MUST accept that there ARE assh*oles out there, and we'd better be ready for them.

 

[joekerr31]

We have evolved past being just 'animals' a long time ago. We have acquired a unique ability to supress the mind and transcend beyond the physical and material. In that respect, using evolution as an argument to still be animals is not very sound.

Also, I find it hard to believe we are born with aggression and alpha'ness. Human babies are the most underdeveloped of mammals, they have very few instincts that are not learned. Back in the day being selfish and dominant was useful for survival, so men learned to be that way. To say a 21'st century child is born with an instinct to dominate and conquer is quite absurd. Our basal instinct is perhaps survial, not meanness or selfishness. That our society has evolved in a manner to necessitate those 'negative' qualities is very pitiable.

and you know whats cool, is that animals are pretty evolved. i grew up with cats and dogs and i can tell you, they treat each other really well - groom each other, play with each other, sleep together, etc.

animals show a tremendous amount of kindness towards each other and humans. but a huge difference is that their kindness is limited to simple tasks, like licking you. its also limited to only familiar objects - they tend to be weary of strangers and other animals. also, when you take out the treats they will push each other around to be the one who gets the goodies.

as humans we have such a greater capacity. firstly because of our ability to do so much more than any animal (drive cars, buy food, etc.). but secondly, because we have memory, context, social rules, etc. unlike the animal kingdom where kindness tends to exist only within a pack, because of our intelligence we have the capacity to treat the world as our pack.

because of language we can communicate our friendliness to others. whereas when a cat meets another cat that it doesnt know, they have no real way of communicating. so they immediately become weary of each other.

but because of our intelligence, ability to communicate with language, social norms / rules, etc. it should be much easier for us to be 'good' in this world. i think the only thing that gets in our way is that we have been lead to believe that being good / kind for no reason is silly.

i mean, let's be real, if Mr. Rogers were real (and not just a tv personality), most people would think he was a pedophile. its unfortunate that 'kindness' is almost a warning sign now a days. someone does a kind deed and people think 'why did you do that? whats your game? whats your angle?"

i think thats happened because there have been so many serial killers, rapists, embezzlers, etc. - who after they are caught turn out to have been though to be 'nice guys' by everyone who knew them. so now people become leary of even nice people.

crazy crazy crazy.

but i still hold there are tons of good kind people out there.

 

[Bonhomme]

I think that there are some people who feel like "we are all in this together" so they are kinder to strangers

Because we are ...

 

[feelingloved]

aliasguy. Preservation and propagation of self are at the core of everything, from ego to evolution. Consider that natural state the baseline. The default is maximum self interest at any cost.

Good is perceived as choosing actions for the greater benefit of more than genes & egos, at some risk to self. This takes some awareness / conscious effort. We all know good and bad things can happen randomly, unintentionally.
What we are discussing are acts of good intent, and defining good people.

Evil is the lack of good. It is the lack of awareness, empathy, presence, oneness, connectivity, choose your word.
Are acts of selfish drunk driving, a flash of anger, or vengeful nukes which kill millions any different? Only in consequence. They are all unconscious actions/reactions.

You could say that a person could willfully, thoughtfully do evil, at some cost to self. But in reality that person is either serving their ego or genetic needs or physical wants. Key word is serving; being an unconscious servant to a driver. They are on autopilot.

We've all been set upon by actions/addictions which we can not control, who's source is external to us. We get taken for a ride, against our conscious will. But the act of observing that, our observation brings awareness. Awareness is self control, because it offers us the choice to let go or focus/amplify thoughs.

 

[aliasguy]

aliasguy. Preservation and propagation of self are at the core of everything, from ego to evolution. Consider that natural state the baseline. The default is maximum self interest at any cost.

Good is perceived as choosing actions for the greater benefit of more than genes & egos, at some risk to self. This takes some awareness / conscious effort. We all know good and bad things can happen randomly, unintentionally.
What we are discussing are acts of good intent, and defining good people.

Evil is the lack of good. It is the lack of awareness, empathy, presence, oneness, connectivity, choose your word.
Are acts of selfish drunk driving, a flash of anger, or vengeful nukes which kill millions any different? Only in consequence. They are all unconscious actions/reactions.

You could say that a person could willfully, thoughtfully do evil, at some cost to self. But in reality that person is either serving their ego or genetic needs or physical wants. Key word is serving; being an unconscious servant to a driver. They are on autopilot.

We've all been set upon by actions/addictions which we can not control, who's source is external to us. We get taken for a ride, against our conscious will. But the act of observing that, our observation brings awareness. Awareness is self control, because it offers us the choice to let go or focus/amplify thoughs.

I think i understand what you are saying. I absolutely CANNOT believe, however, that evil is simply "unawareness," or an "autopilot" thing. (Oops, maybe I don't understand, after all.) Self control is WAY more than just AWARENESS, it's AWARENESS PLUS "control." In fact, awareness is necessary, but not at ALL sufficient for "self control." (The first step to fixing a problem is recognizing/admitting it, but more WORK is needed to actually FIX it.)

The "evil is only the absence of good" argument ,in my view, is simply a construct to answer the "problem of evil," while holding "God" "blameless." It MUST be used by those who have a need to explain evil while holding fast to their theological views (not that there's anything WRONG with that.)

But I can't buy it.


EDIT: I just want to add, that if evil is absence of AWARENESS, and the lower animals are not, as you say, as "aware" as us, then why aren't nature itself, and all those "unaware animals" evil, while all the men over the ages which may be considered (at least by many) to be "evil" were able to read, speak, write, explain themselves, etc. ? Those guys KNEW what they were doing. Does that make them not evil? But an eagle, following its instincts, and plucking a fish from the water --- it's not "aware," so it IS evil????? How does this work? Am I misunderstanding you even MORE????

Were the guys who sent that dude to blow away Bhutto yesterday "unaware"? Really? Were they "evil"?

 

[My Name is Nobody]

Yes people are good. If you don't feel this way then you are AFC.

 

[Gerard-890]

I respect JoeKerr and again don't want to get off topic of his post as much, but let me ask you guys this:

Is God real?

Very hard thing to answer huh? While I haven't lived long I have lived long enough to realize that many of the promises of "God" just simply aren't there, and IF a God exists then he's only in Heaven or another realm, and really it would make no difference to our life ON EARTH anyway. So why does he matter so much?

BUT, and this is a big but, doesn't it feel GOOD to believe in God? Doesn't it give you peace?

JoeKerr isn't saying that ALL PEOPLE are good and well-behaved people, but instead he's saying for you to just BELIEVE they are so it will make YOU feel better.

This does make you feel better, however just like one of the risks of believing there's a God that's going to save you, when you become DEPENDENT on that false belief you are literally leaning on something that is NOT there.

This is why Religion and God becomes a problem for people.

People begin to NOT take responsibility for their entire life and instead leave portions of it to "chance" and "God will see me through." When it turns out that "God didn't see them through" they conclude that GOD must have something "else" for me.

You see the problem?

Internally, have no anger or malice towards anybody. think positive thoughts about people and "just see them as good," but please don't neglit the responsibility to WATCH YOUR BACK because people are STILL people.

 

[aliasguy]

I don't want to get this thread shut down over religion, but I think the "God" question stems from how too many of us see "God" as some dude with a long white beard, who lives in the sky, and is watching. There is a quote from Eco's novel Baudolino which really hits this misconception right, and gives an alternate view that at least makes a BIT of sense.


Here it is:

" 'God is the Unique, and he is so perfect that he does not resemble any of the things that exist or any of the things that do not; you cannot describe him using your human intelligence, as if he were someone who becomes angry if you are bad or worries about you out of goodness, someone who has a mouth, ears, face, wings, or that is spirit, father or son, not even of himself. Of the Unique you cannot say he is or is not, he embraces all but is nothing; you can name him only through dissimilarity, because it is futile to call him Goodness, Beauty, Wisdom, Amiability, Power, Justice, it would be like calling him Bear, Panther, Serpent, Dragon, or Gryphon, because whatever you say of him you will never express him. God is not body, is not figure, is not form; he does not see, does not hear, does not know disorder and perturbation; he is not soul, intelligence, imagination, opinion, thought, word, number, order, size; he is not equality and is not inequality, is not time and is not eternity; he is a will without purpose. Try to understand, Baudolino: God is a lamp without flame, a flame without fire, a fire without heat, a dark light, a silent rumble, a blind flash, a luminous soot, a ray of his own darkness, a circle that expands concentrating on its own center, a solitary simplicity; he is...is...' She paused, seeking an example that would convince them both, she the teacher and he the pupil. 'He is a space that is not, in which you and I are the same thing, as we are today in this time that doesn't flow.' "


Now, THAT is the kind of "God" I could believe in, not the one in the KJV. Sorry.

 

[Gerard-890]

Alias great post, but even the poeter says the same thing.

God IS but really doesn't MATTER.

People who debate on whether God exists or whether (going back to Joe's post before it gets shut down ) or whether GOOD exists, can provide facts that will show how it DOESN'T exist, but you can't really say something is there or ISN'T there because we haven't been EVERYWHERE, see what I'm saying?

The bottom line is, I think the world would be a better place if every man, woman, and child would look themselves in the mirror and say, "What can I do TODAY that will make me a better all around person?"

When people start taking responsibility for their actions, choices, and lifestyles instead of blaming everything else BUT themselves.

When people start ACCEPTING life's challenges at face value and confronting them at face value, instead of always trying to get SOMEBODY else to fight THEIR battles.

When majority of the people start to take care of THEMSELVES, only then will the world be a better place because you will have a world full of more HIGH SELF-ESTEEM PEOPLE who realize their abilities and USE their abilities to evolve themselves and their surrounding environment.

When can we get back to a world where people just took responsibility NOT for everybody else, but just for themselves first?

 

[Gerard-890]

How often do we on this site for example, talk about how women aren't this and women aren't that, when we could just take responsibility and CHOOSE another woman?

People argue over things like how we need better laws for people in poverty and all these other things, I think the laws in place right now are GREAT if you TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM.

How can someone in a lower income level environment complain that they have no hope? Financial Aid for College Students are provided to people of low income environments, you can get your entire school paid for from financial aid alone and plus filling out for scholarships.

But see the THING is, you actually have to have goals, work hard while in school, and learn about your industry so you can obtain employment.

The keyword is = WORK

I mean, seriously, people complain and complain all day long about how BAD the system is, when in actuality all these people want is a FREE MEAL. They want MORE WELFARE, more FREE MONEY, because they don't want to WORK for nothing.

Okay I'm off topic, I'm rambling, and I must get back on track

 

[aliasguy]

Gerard-----


Yeah, you're ramblin', but that's ok.

One thing in the post above struck me, though........



you wrote:

"How often do we on this site for example, talk about how women aren't this and women aren't that, when we could just take responsibility and CHOOSE another woman?"

Sometimes, "another woman" won't do, because most or ALL of them DO "this" or "that." And looking for one who DOESN'T is like looking for a dodo bird.

But, that's OK, IF we recognize this. If we recognize that the woman we ALL want and are ALL looking for DOESN'T REALLY EXIST.

We just have to accept that women are AS THEY ARE. We're never going to "win." We will NEVER find that elusive creature that we desire, the one who is lovely and sweet and hot and sexy, and loves and accepts us as who we are ---- JUST LIKE no woman will EVER find a man who is EXACTLY what she wants, needs, and desires.


You can look all over creation for the the right woman to "choose," and you'll never find her. You might get close, if you are REALLY lucky (and if you do think you've found her, open your eyes up a little wider and start interviewing everyone she's ever met.)


Now I'M rambling.

(BTW, I agree with the "work" idea, man.)

 

[KarmaSutra]

Alias, great work quoting Umberto Eco !

The most notable quote from him (and one which made a severe impact on my young psyche) is this:

"The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everybody else."

Gerard, I'm keeping an eye on you. Though we don't see eye to eye on some things, perspective is proof of maturity. Your posts are well thought out and gleem with sincerity. Not like a lot of the boy-men who cry over spilt t!tty milk.

 

[KontrollerX]

"What can I do TODAY that will make me a better all around person?"

I think it was Ghandi who said...

"Be the change you want to see in the world."

So true.

Your posts have really summed up the thread Gerard great great stuff.

"JoeKerr isn't saying that ALL PEOPLE are good and well-behaved people, but instead he's saying for you to just BELIEVE they are so it will make YOU feel better."

I think so too, I think this is the underyling theme of the thread but Joekerr overlooked that some of us have been there done that and really believed in good guys, bad guys only to realize after study and observation that we had bought into a lie and that happiness for us is now found in embracing reality and the truth which we have come to find out is that people are not good or evil, there are no good guys or bad guys people just are what they are and will do what they feel benefits them the most in each situation.

If what they do benefits you, then you will label them good, if they do what doesn't benefit you, then you will label them bad but really they are not good or bad they just are what they are even while individual perception rushes to label them something.

I've felt since the topic was posted that Joekerr was simply trying to give us a positive message and make us feel good and I'm glad the topic has generated such deep discussion but I can't help but believe his intent would of been better served had he just made a topic about the benefits of positivity in a person's every day life.

So to conclude our side's happiness comes from learning how to best deal with and exist in reality rather than gloss it over and pretend its something its not just to feel momentarily good.

 

[joekerr31]

I've felt since the topic was posted that Joekerr was simply trying to give us a positive message and make us feel good and I'm glad the topic has generated such deep discussion but I can't help but believe his intent would of been better served had he just made a topic about the benefits of positivity in a person's every day life.

actually it had almost nothing to do with making peopel feel good. rather it was a thread discussing what is the reality of the world around us and is the common perception now a days accurate.

my argument is that it is not accurate. the common perception now a days is that people are generally selfish. that people only care to the extent that they can use you to get ahead. that even altruistic behavior is merely selfishness in disguise, and that people who engage in such behavior are expecting that life will pay them back appropriately. that no one is truly concerned with the greater good, but rather are only concerned with their own good (ie. what benefits them).

whereas the argument im making is that i think a lot of people in the world are much kinder than we think.

now, everyone has the potential to be both good and bad, thats not in dispute. but the crux of what im getting at is that WE have a choice to go out into the world expecting them to exhibit the bad or expecting them to exhibit the good.

and my argument is that most people will exhibit the good. but when we approach the world as though it is hostile, that very mindset creates a self fulfilling prophecy where we enervate more of the bad in those around us than the good.

this plays into the over emphasis on stereotypes and the over judgemental attitude that some have in society today. guys see a 'hot' woman and immediately assume they know all kinds of things about her. when in reality, you know nothing about her, and can't know anything about her until you talk to her.

we assume all kinds of things about people without knowing anything about them. and i believe that people are way more fearful of the world aroudn them than they should be - because there is way more 'good' out there than bad.

BUT, just like in the news, the bad draws a lot of attention. you can have 10 million law abiding citizens and 1 suicide bomber, and that 1 suicide bomber leads everyone to believe that the world is a horrible evil place and that its going to hell in a handbasket. but the reality is that the ratio of evil to good is 10 million to 1 (in this particular example).

and this is an important point because it plays to another thread i started 'fantasy versus reality'. i believe it is fantasy to think that the world is more a hostile place than a friendly place. just like the 1 suicide bomber gets all the attention, i think people get screwed over by 1, 2, or 3 people in their life and then are weary of everyone. when in reality, they've met thousands of people who didn't screw them over.

and hence why i think einstein was correct in suggesting that the most important thing is deciding whether you live in a friendly or hostile world. if you believe the world is hostile, you will interact with it in such a way that, i believe, you will not only severly limit your possibilities in life, but also you will fail to experience reality.

the human mind is predisposed towards neurotic thinking - being overly cautious of things keeps you alive (especially in cave man days). but, here in the west anyway, i think many of us are really under appreciating how 'friendly' the world around us really is. and i believe that amazing things happen when you start to see the world around you as friendly, suddenly you start to interact with it in a different way and to your surprise, you find out that yes, it actually is quite friendly.

 

[joekerr31]

oh and another thing...

i also think that a lot of people fail to recognize their role in the break down of the relationships they have with other people. i think a lot of selfish people are quick to point out how others have behaved selfishless, yet completely blind to how their lack of relating to others in a positive manner set the stage for such reciprocating behaviors to exhibit themselves.

which when it comes to females is why its critical that we say you have self confidence, see yourself as the prize, have an active life, etc...

the reason is that if you do you will be a positive mindset, and what you will find is that women will reciprocate that mindset. they inherently will know that you are a man who is loving life and that to be with you they must add to that, not detract from it.

but when you don't think of yourself as the prize, when you aren't happy with your life, you end up trying to create false impressions with women, which then leads them to do the same to you, and everything deteriorates into a big game. and hence the self fulfilling prophecy occurs - you think women are manipulative, you interact with them as though they are, and voila, they end up trying to manipulate you.

whereas the man who doesn't concern himself with whether women are manipulative, but rather believes that women have the capacity to be kind, caring and loving, interacts with them as though that is what he expects to see - and its clear that that is what he is interested in. and viola, that's what he gets. and when he doesn't get it, he moves on.

i think we are doomed to fail the moment we start by finding people 'guilty' and force them to prove their innocence. i think we set ourselves up for success when we assume people are innocent until they prove themselves guilty.