people are good

[ketostix]

A question:

All of you guys who say that even when one does a selfless act they are really doing it for their own validation. Wouldn't that still make them a good person, though?

To be internally validated by doing good deeds sounds pretty damn good to me.

I agree. And I agree with joekerr regarding doing a good deed only because it makes one feel good is being good for all intents and purposes. And if you do a good deed only because you believed it was the right thing to do (say through your private conscious or moral compass) and it didn't make you feel good to do it is still be good to a lesser extent. Those two motivations for doing good are totally different from the motive of doing something good out of reciprocation. Most people do good only out of direct reciprocation. And those kinds of people will stop doing good the instant the promise of reciprocation stops and they'll do a lot of bad things behind others backs.

I think some of you are making a moral relativism argument while joekerr and others that agree with him are making moral objectivism. If doing something good for only the sake of that making you feel good is as 'noble" of motive for doing good as there is. It's the only motive there is for doing something good that's not generally regarded as an ulterior motive.

 

[STR8UP]

but i do not believe that this is the natural expression of human nature. i do believe that man was actually meant to live with others, to care for others, and in return be cared for.

True, but this is a construct of society to facilitate a smooth exchange of favors which benefits society as a whole. You pat my back, I pat yours.

I still say that the world leans toward the "hostile" side, for the simple reason that it fosters the survival of our species. Sure, it works out that I do something for you and you return the favor, but if we were ALL "givers" the human race would cease to exist in short order.

if goodness were light and badness / meanness / selfishness were dark, i believe we'd all have to wear sunglasses when we went out into the world.

Only if you are looking exclusively at the facade. When you peel back the layers and look at the true motives it becomes more transparent and you will see that it's mostly just a cover.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

A question:

All of you guys who say that even when one does a selfless act they are really doing it for their own validation. Wouldn't that still make them a good person, though?

To be internally validated by doing good deeds sounds pretty damn good to me.

That's what I'm saying, it's all good. It just seems a bit naive to think that people will do good deeds without wanting or feeling the self gratification of the act. Actually, I'm a huge proponent of doing what's necessary to make yourself happy first and foremost, if being altruistic provides that I'm happy for 'ya; especially since my happiness comes first.

 

[joekerr31]

A question:

All of you guys who say that even when one does a selfless act they are really doing it for their own validation. Wouldn't that still make them a good person, though?

To be internally validated by doing good deeds sounds pretty damn good to me.

well and this actually goes to a further point i have. that there is actually a reward in being good. that being good doesn't mean you are a doormat.

i think being good actually leads to a happier more enjoyable life. we've been brainwashed to think that life is a battle and that the best defense is to be weary of everything and everyone.

and while you have to be weary to the extent that you don't place your self esteem in someone elses hands, or you don't give some con artist all your money, in generally i think its actually possible to walk through life being kind to people with the assumption that most of them will be kind to you back.

 

[joekerr31]

Only if you are looking exclusively at the facade. When you peel back the layers and look at the true motives it becomes more transparent and you will see that it's mostly just a cover.

well i continue to think that this belief is a function of our highschool years. of experiencing things like a woman being madly in love with us (ie. good) and then suddenly treating us like sh*t (ie. bad).

we come to believe that all 'good' is simply a facade.

and when it comes to 'teenagers' i would agree with this statement. teenagers are fickle and driven by their emotions. they have not developed a sense of empathy for the world around them.

but when we talk about people 30+ i believe there are TONS of peopel who have developed a healthy empathic, kind perspective towards others. who have made a conscious choice to be a positive force in the world instead of a negative one. who are the kinds of people who will lend you a helping hand simply because they believe we are all responsible for makign the world a better place.

 

[ketostix]

but when we talk about people 30+ i believe there are TONS of peopel who have developed a healthy empathic, kind perspective towards others. who have made a conscious choice to be a positive force in the world instead of a negative one. who are the kinds of people who will lend you a helping hand simply because they believe we are all responsible for makign the world a better place.

I'm a little more cynical than you about there being tons of people consciously wanting to be a positive force. I just don't see too many people doing that. Like I said earlier most people are indifferent and easliy swayed to do you wrong, and the majority who do good by you are reciprocating what good you did for them. So I agree with you that people usually will reciprocate good.

Anyway, the way I see it is: If you get a good feeling solely from doing good=definitely acting as a good person, if you get a good feeling from doing bad=definitely acting as a bad person.

 

[Luthor Rex]

A question:

All of you guys who say that even when one does a selfless act they are really doing it for their own validation. Wouldn't that still make them a good person, though?

To be internally validated by doing good deeds sounds pretty damn good to me.

You mean that self-interested actions can produce good? Yes of course, that was the insight of Adam Smith:

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity, but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages.

 

[iqqi]

Here is an example of a damned good deed.

 

[STR8UP]

Here is an example of a damned good deed.

He didn't take a penny for his effort, but he got a write up on ABC news. Yea, that's a selfless act.

 

[joekerr31]

He didn't take a penny for his effort, but he got a write up on ABC news. Yea, that's a selfless act.

are you serious? the personal trainer didnt charge him a dime and saved his life.
so he got a little publicity for it in the end (which was no guarantee - either that he would get publicity, or that this guy would ultimately lose the weight).

he took time that he could have been charging other people as a trainer and gave it to this guy who needed his help (hundreds of other personal trainers don't do this kind of thing!.

i mean, my god, do you really see the world through such jaded eyes that even a selfless act of caring and sympathy carries no weight with you?

str8up, i can just see you now back in biblical times walking by Jesus nailed to the cross and mumbling 'bah, what an attention seeker. dying so that people will think he's the son of god. what a selfish petty man."

just crazy that you can't recognize a selfless deed when one is being committed.

 

[Mr.Positive]

Here is an example of a damned good deed.

Wow..incredible story. People amaze me, and when I read about a story like this I smile knowing that there's people like this out there. Very inspirational.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

are you serious? the personal trainer didnt charge him a dime and saved his life. ...

And you're saying that the trainer wasn't planning on any receiving any self-gratification for seeing this through? People just don't do good deeds just for profit.

 

[Mr.Positive]

And you're saying that the trainer wasn't planning on any receiving any self-gratification for seeing this through? People just don't do good deeds just for profit.

It's a good thing to feel self-gratification for helping someone. He deserves major self-gratification, IMO, for what he did. That doesn't mean he was selfish, quite the opposite actually.

Believe it or not, there are people out there that really enjoy helping others, just for the feeling they get, for giving back to the community. They are generally happy people that love life and want to share it with others. IMO, they are the ones that have really 'figured life out'.

 

[iqqi]

It's a good thing to feel self-gratification for helping someone. He deserves major self-gratification, IMO, for what he did. That doesn't mean he was selfish, quite the opposite actually.

Believe it or not, there are people out there that really enjoy helping others, just for the feeling they get, for giving back to the community. They are generally happy people that love life and want to share it with others. IMO, they are the ones that have really 'figured life out'.

 

[ketostix]

It's a good thing to feel self-gratification for helping someone. He deserves major self-gratification, IMO, for what he did. That doesn't mean he was selfish, quite the opposite actually.

Exactly, a selfish person gets no self-gratification from helping others. They feel "ripped-off" when doing something good to someone else. A "bad" person gets satisfaction from doing bad to others.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

It's a good thing to feel self-gratification for helping someone. He deserves major self-gratification, IMO, for what he did. That doesn't mean he was selfish, quite the opposite actually.

Believe it or not, there are people out there that really enjoy helping others, just for the feeling they get, for giving back to the community. They are generally happy people that love life and want to share it with others. IMO, they are the ones that have really 'figured life out'.

I completely agree. That trainer should feel good for many "self based" reasons; self gratification, self actualization, self determination, self confidence etc. All of which the person he was helping benefited from and helped him succeed himself.

I also agree that there are people who enjoy helping others for the feeling they get. What people are failing to realize is that it's that personal need for that feeling which drives them to do such things. The greater that personal need, the greater their gift of what they give.

It seems that there's a lot of people who's self need for personal martyrdom makes them expound about the selflessness of their actions. Those are the people who I'm most wary. They're basically saying that they are devoid of the ability of wanting to do a good deed for the feeling of personal gratification. That just seems bazaar.

 

[KontrollerX]

The trainer wouldn't of helped that guy at all if he didn't get something out of it for himself ie a good feeling.

Self interest ie selfishness is the only human motivation for doing anything at all.

Sometimes the selfish act takes the form of something the majority would think is bad like robbing a bank and sometimes the selfish act takes the form of something the majority would think is good like helping this guy lose the weight.

The problem and why people cannot seem to understand or accept that all humans are selfish creatures at their core is the very word selfishness falls under their own personal category of evil in their ideas of good and evil and it really doesn't have to be that way.

Just accept in your own personal morality chart that many selfish actions are just how we are as humans and necessary for survival and you can consider this form of selfishness good while you can consider other forms of selfishness bad such as the kind that goes beyond the person's needs for their own survival by actively hurting others to aquire things not needed for survival.

 

[STR8UP]

just crazy that you can't recognize a selfless deed when one is being committed.

It's easy for someone like you to come along and make a statement like "people are good", but someone else could say "people are bad" and be just as correct.

Taking your stance is the default. The easy road. No one is going to chastise you for looking through rose colored glasses because that would mean that they might have to take off their glasses and acknowledge things for what they really are.

People go through their day dealing with others on an adversarial level, constantly having to fight to survive, then they come home and see a story on the news about a trainer who helped a guy lose weight and didn't charge him any money. This allows them to cling to hope that somehow, somewhere, SOME DAY they too will find that great person/people to bring light to their dark life.

You read a story and assume that the only force driving him was the goodness of his heart. And everyone else who clings to hope stands up and cheers at the affirmation that there are "good" people in the world.

If it makes you feel better, go ahead and believe whatever you want.

Fact of the matter is, neither of us will ever know his true motivation. Nobody knows ALL of the factors that motivated him to do what he did.

Did the guy consciously say to himself "I need to do this to get publicity for my business!"? You can't answer that question, and neither can I.

I would be willing to bet that he was NOT consciously thinking this. But people do things for a reason. And to label something as a great deed, a selfless act, without REALLY knowing, well that's great if it makes YOU feel good, but don't look down on ME for looking at it realistically.

 

[STR8UP]

Sometimes the selfish act takes the form of something the majority would think is bad like robbing a bank and sometimes the selfish act takes the form of something the majority would think is good like helping this guy lose the weight.

This is what the glass is half full people refuse to acknowledge.

I am neither a "glass is half full" nor a "glass is half empty" guy, as these folks would like to believe. I am a "glass contains 50% of it's available volume" kind of guy. You and several others seem to be the same way. Unfortunately we will never be accepted for who we are, we will always be called "jaded" and "pessimists" and such.

Oh well, so be it.

 

[ketostix]

The trainer wouldn't of helped that guy at all if he didn't get something out of it for himself ie a good feeling.

Self interest ie selfishness is the only human motivation for doing anything at all.

Sometimes the selfish act takes the form of something the majority would think is bad like robbing a bank and sometimes the selfish act takes the form of something the majority would think is good like helping this guy lose the weight.

The problem and why people cannot seem to understand or accept that all humans are selfish creatures at their core is the very word selfishness falls under their own personal category of evil in their ideas of good and evil and it really doesn't have to be that way.

Just accept in your own personal morality chart that many selfish actions are just how we are as humans and necessary for survival and you can consider this form of selfishness good while you can consider other forms of selfishness bad such as the kind that goes beyond the person's needs for their own survival by actively hurting others to aquire things not needed for survival.

Well yeah it goes to motivation (I believe doing good solely for the sake of feeling good is generally a faultless motivation) and it goes to the degree of benefit/harm to those involved in the situation. I don't personally believe most people are good. I think most people are a mix of good and bad. But you do have people who fall on the extremes of being good and bad. Everyone has a self-interest and there's nothing wrong with that. Selfishness assumes an overly degree of self-interest-to a degree that doesn't really benefit any parties involved.