Narcissism

[icepick]

Originally posted by Starman
Ice Spic,

Chill man, I didn't mean to piss you off...

Philosophy is the brother related discourse of psychology.

Yeah, I know, but psychology TODAY is MUCH different from philosophy hundreds of years ago.

What makes you think I havent studied Philosophy?

Just some of the things that you posted reminded me of people that I know that are VERY literal, and only use philosophy as a "brain puzzle" and not as a tool to understanding life better/differently.

Nietchze, Hume, Kant, Aquinas, Plato, Soc, Kant, Descartes, Ive studied them all..

Yes, but there is a difference between knowing and understanding. You may KNOW a certain philosophy, but do you UNDERSTAND what it is like to look at life through the eyes of say a Plato or a Kant.

Im just saying reading about philosophy to cure Obsessive thinking or Depression is more a distraction than actual self help.

I never said that you should read philosophy to solve ANY of your life-problems. The only thing it is good for is to help UNDERSTAND others points of view so you do not get unreasonably angry or misunderstand people with outlooks drastically different from your own.

Jeez, how did you gather I had no insight into philosophy from my posts? You're a real socratic arent you?

Well, when you use statements like "Narcissism is a clinical disorder.", to prove validity, it just sets off certain bells in my head. Those type of statements remind me of people that I know that use science as thier "be all and end all" of reality.

How much can one know about a person on the internet by a few hundred words? Don't take what I say the wrong way, I don't know you. But like I said, some of the things that you posted sound SIMILAR to people that I know IRL that have a problem accepting ANYTHING else but "hard science".

 

[rbd]

Originally posted by Matt Rogers
Hullo, I think I have realised the main reason why I have difficulty attracting women. Narcissism!

Had the same problem. Admitting that you are self-absorbed and wanting to change is half of the solution, congrats!

Read "How to win friends and influence people" By Dale Carnegie. It's a great book to help you improve your charisma in most general human interactions.

Sometimes I partially slip into the "old me", but it's becoming less and less, and the changes I've made to my personality in the past six months have been nothing short of amazing.

Good luck!

 

[ShortTimer]

Originally posted by icepick
As much as science trys to claim otherwise, but there are many things that science is at a loss to explain.

Burn strawman burn!

Science does not now, nor has ever claimed that it can or does know everything. You're the one who needs to take the philosophy of science course.

Originally posted by icepick
Just because the so-called "Scientific Method" is used does not mean that truth is the product of any experiment or study.

The philosophy of science has never made a claim to absolute truth, it has always acknowledged that it can be wrong -- that is the strength of science, that it accepts that new evidence can be found and conclusions changed. Open-mindedness is a requirement for the scientific method to work.

Of course the opponents of science make wild accusations that have nothing to do with how real science operates.

It also doesn't help when the pseduo-scientists that fill up psychology departments do two things:

1.) They drown out the real voices of reason in the psychology field.

2.) Try to take their "theories" and pass legislation with them.

During my stay I minored in psych in college -- I was disgusted to find the rampant abuse of reason in that field. So many theories that were 'classics' that were so blatantly wrong or that had no supporting data, and so many other theories that were really just pushing a political agenda. All of that made me give up any idea of ever working in such a field.

 

[Starman]

icepick ,

give me a break with your "You may have read phillosophy but you dont understand it" garbage.

You are telling me, I am diagnosing a behavioral/personality disorder..when you are sitting on the other end diagnosing my level of "understanding" in philosophy based on a few posts?

I think its you who is pissed off sir, because I have pushed your "Philsophy is crap" button, and now you are defensive because of your self doubt.

READ: I never discredited philosophy, and the pursuit of truth and knowledge.

I said Studying philosophy to help the original poster's problem is distracting as opposed to studying and examining the reasons for his current behavior.

Thats like studying Math to try and understand why you are depressed.

 

[Pook]

cestmoi,

I am studying social psychology as something related to what I study at college. And would it surprise you if I tould you that psychology says the exact same things most of the DJ bible says?

The Nice-guy syndrom and one-itis are all registered in social psychology and ethnology. Gold diggers? Yep. Extreme masculinity as the source of sucess in the dating game?-whole buncha studies on this.

I know. Much of it is there.

Yet, none of it is useful.

The Dillemma: People come to this site and leave as Don Juans. People study psychology and do not turn into Don Juans.

This website creates results whereas psychology does not. I do not care what anyone says or how they say it. I am interested only in the results.

If you compare Paradise Lost to the works of Shakespeare, which is superior. Milton did more interesting things with his stresses and showed off by using Latin works. It is, no doubt, a supreme work. But which of the two works totally revolutionizes the way how a person thinks? It is Shakespeare, which is why he's far more useful. There is little that Paradise Lost illuminates (but it uses Latin words!) which is why the work is loved by lawyers and politicians.

If psychology was more illuminating, we wouldn't be in the sexual chaos we find ourselves now.

You will know the Tree by its Fruit.

Perhaps you've got popular women's quasi-psychology (Oprah, Cosmopolitan) mixed up with academic psychology. Its funny you should be saying psychology is the false answe, when it has infact been giving the same answers you have.

I am not saying psychology is FALSE. I am saying that it is extremely LIMITED. As far as bulding people up, I find its results to be very disapointing.

Santanya says: "Human cognition is essentially poetical." Psychology is LIMITED because it is trying to study human nature from the OUTSIDE. Poetry, literature, and other works study it from the inside. It is no surprise that its insights are more profound. There is more penetrating psychology in one chapter of Dostoevsky than in the entire works of Freud. George Eliot’s Middlemarch tells us more about English provincial life during the reign of Queen Victoria than all the sociological studies of Victorian society combined.

Starman,

Although I've only met one or two of the people on this board, I know they are all fiercely intelligent and very observant of themselves and others. I highly doubt we are running around with a psychological disorder in our heads that was so hidden that an internet test will uncover.

ummm perhaps, since men are exiting the "macho" phase and beginning to open up and discover themselves without putting forth a psuedo "Im Tough, nothing penetrates me" shield..yet feeling like Sh1t the end of the day?

Open up and discover themselves!? What does this mean?

chick thinking. That is just ridiculous.

I never knew learning about oneself is considered "chick thinking"

It's just something I've noticed some people doing. They focus so much on becoming 'desireable' (which is good) that they go a bit too far. They constantly make sure their appearance is 'perfect', very much enjoy praise (to them it means they are doing something right), want to be the focus of attention (especially female attention) and so on. This is all good but it eventually becomes chick thinking because that is how chicks think. A guy just can't be desirable, to be a 'flower', no, he must take action. It is like the handsome guy thinking girls will ask him out because he is handsome.

Is it narcisstic? I don't think so. We're getting a grasp on sexuality, not thinking we are a walking God on Earth. Saddam Husein was narcissitic. He made Iraq into a nation of mirrors with his reflection. But we are not trying to make mirror images of ourselves throughout the world (The Nice Guy is probably the more narcisstic. He believes he is WORTHY of a babe because he is 'nice' and 'different' from all those 'other guys'.)

From what I've found, psychology is fine when it is in its world of theory. When it is brought out into the world of reality, odd things occur. They take something simple, like a person getting wealthy and feeling guilty for how quick it came, into 'Sudden Wealth Syndrome' and balloon out theories stacked on top of theories enveloped in psycho-babble.

From what I've seen, psychology is always trying to 'open people up' to 'share your insides'. I miss the days a century ago when people did not go vomiting their pain everywhere or bleeding their insecurities on others. Psychology calls such people 'enlightened'; I call them disgusting.

To put it bluntly:

To be a Man, he must do something.

To be a Woman, she simply bleeds.

 

[Starman]

"From what I've found, psychology is fine when it is in its world of theory"

ARe you beginning to contradict your self Spook?

How is psychology in theory different from practicality?

If your take is Psychology only works in theory, then this entire forum and building your "game" is a Farce.

after all..isnt building confidence, being ****y, funny, etc a sort of Psychological mind set to woo women?

I agree wth you that craving attention, admiration is somewhat a female trait.

But you cant ignore the fact that it exists. Are you saying all celebrities, world leaders (hussein), boxers, etc all craving attention are feminine?

Obviously the craving for attention is a personality/childhood ordeal.

And writing it off as simply as "Be a Man! Attention is for women!" is a copout explanation for the lazy minded.

Thats like saying being introverted is feminine and extroverted as masculine

 

[icepick]

Starman wrote:
You are telling me, I am diagnosing a behavioral/personality disorder..when you are sitting on the other end diagnosing my level of "understanding" in philosophy based on a few posts?

Jeez, you make it seem like I am ACTIVELY trying to figure out "what makes you tick." I told you that I wasn't, what you posted just set off some alarms in my head. Give me some credit, I am not a psychologist!

I think its you who is pissed off sir, because I have pushed your "Philsophy is crap" button, and now you are defensive because of your self doubt.

READ: I never discredited philosophy, and the pursuit of truth and knowledge.

See Starman? You just went and proved my point.

The point is that philosophy is crap. Look at all the stuff written by them, VERY different world-views, VERY different interpretations of reality, but each one "worked" for them and many others for thier entire lives.

But which philosopher was right? Which philosophy is true?

Taking this a step further, which psychologist is right? What distinguishes the "good" psychobabble from the "bad"?

Is NPD real? Or is it just a figment in a philosopher's--excuse me--psychologist's imagination? Why define yourself by a concept that is not real?

I said Studying philosophy to help the original poster's problem is distracting as opposed to studying and examining the reasons for his current behavior.

Thats like studying Math to try and understand why you are depressed.

Like I said:

icepick wrote:
I never said that you should read philosophy to solve ANY of your life-problems.

It SEEMED to me like you were holding up psychology as TRUE above all. (If you WEREN'T then this little conversation is pointless.) I am just drawing a parallel between philosophy and psychology to SHOW that psychology might make some sense, but there are OTHER WAYS to fix your problems.

And, many times, those other ways are MUCH better.

 

[Pook]

Starman,

Relax. I'm just posting because I think people defining themselves by an internet test is not good for themselves and psychology. A question like, "Do you take careful care of your appearance" may be seen as narcissitic. But Don Juans do it in an entirely different sense then how the questions are being asked.

The test is very general, very broad, and potentially misleading.

How is psychology in theory different from practicality?

Because everything WORKS in the World of Theory. I want to MOVE to the World of Theory because in Theory, everything is correct.

If your take is Psychology only works in theory, then this entire forum and building your "game" is a Farce.

This forum is conversations between men, not a psychological treatise.

From my experience, I read richly of psychology and found some of it interesting, some of it clever, but none of it really helping me.

after all..isnt building confidence, being ****y, funny, etc a sort of Psychological mind set to woo women?

No, I don't think building confidence is a fury of psychological 'tricks'. I can do tricks and tactics all day. The problem is the cost is that I would be TIED to my computer, forever reading more.

I don't want to do tricks to be LIKE that successful guy over there. I want to BE that successful guy. That guy is successful because he is looking at the world very differently from the unsuccessful one. It's not a matter of psychology, or philosophy, or 'study reading'. He probably knows nothing of psychology or philosophy. Hell, he probably never looked at a webpage or book in his life. Yet, he is successful. Why?

Are you saying all celebrities, world leaders (hussein), boxers, etc all craving attention are feminine?

No.

Obviously the craving for attention is a personality/childhood ordeal.

I don't know. Perhaps it is something else.

One time I heard of these twins. One was a pro-athlete. The other was not. Why was one successful while the other wasn't? Genetics had no answer, for both were of the identical DNA. Psychology had no answer, for both were raised in the same exact way. So what gives?

I asked a guy, "Why isn't the other twin successful?"

"Because, Pook, he doesn't have the gift."

"b]WHAT[/b] did you say?" There is too much mystery in Nature. And the science of Man that seems most undeveloped is himself.

All it takes is one shrug from Nature and down falls our Babylon Tower of Ideals. Or to rewrite a famous quote: "There are more things of Nature and Life than are dreamed of by your psychology."

And writing it off as simply as "Be a Man! Attention is for women!" is a copout explanation for the lazy minded.

Thats like saying being introverted is feminine and extroverted as masculine [/B]

But if I said that, then how can I (as you say) mean celebrities and world leaders are feminine? Aren't they extroverts?

This can go on forever. We've already exchanged three posts. Was One the same as Three? Was Two the same as One? Is there any difference between One, Two, or Three?

Then what worth will be going to Four, Five, and Six?

 

[es_mer8]

Whoa, damn. Check out my ratings:

Paranoid - High
Schizoid - Moderate
Schizotypal - Moderate
Antisocial - High
Borderline - Low
Histrionic - High
Narcissistic - High
Avoidant - Moderate
Dependent - Low
Obsessive Compulsive - Moderate

I've been paranoid recently because these groups of morons that my sister knows egged my house twice and even as I type, I am anticipating their return. As for me being narcissistic, its true. Often times I put myself higher among my male peers because I am strong, I am one of the smartest, and right now, I am considered the biggest womanizer by my friends. How can I not think of myself higher? I know there are millions of people better but in my area, I am one of the best and that can be proven.

A lot of DJs sound like they have antisocial properties to them. Remember how the saying went "You should be wondering if you like this girl or not, not if she likes you." Antisocial means that you only think of yourself and this holds true to me. I also can be very aggressive if someone tries to mess around with me. This is because I was taught as a kid not to take any **** from anyone but the rep I had in school I thought was just a joke. Anyway...

One was a pro-athlete. The other was not. Why was one successful while the other wasn't?

Did the other twin attempt to be a pro-athlete? Most twins I know (I know of about 5 sets of them), each one of the sets has a completely different outlook on life than the other. I know of a set that one wants to be a doctor and another one wants to become a marine biologist. They were together most of their lives but many feel the need to become independent from another to make it own their own.

Is NPD real? Or is it just a figment in a philosopher's--excuse me--psychologist's imagination? Why define yourself by a concept that is not real?

Its a real problem. As children, even though we are told to become whatever amazing thing we wanted, by the time we enter into our teens, we realize that we won't all be multi platinum selling rock stars or astronauts. We realize the concept of conformity. Some people just do not accept that and still shoot high into the sky for their dreams. A good thing sort of if you have the dedication. A kid with an 85 IQ will never become an astrophysicist or a doctor or anything else other than a Nine-To-Fiver at a blue collar job but there are exceptions to the rule. However there are people that believe they are somehow better than the rest. Even if they are criminals that have a low IQ, they still believe they are the best there ever is. A lot of times the DJ mentality appears that way but thats often false. When you do the whole "I'm the ****" thinking, its meant to give you confidence. I don't think the point is to 100% believe it. The point is to make you feel that you are worth it in life and nobody should be able to tell you differently.

Narcissism often times can be paralleled to chick thinking. Most girls, even average girls, are told at a young age that they are better than the guys. They are told that their relationships should be with sugar daddies and bad boys that are there just to give the woman entertainment. Even if HB8-10s succumb to the power of the DJ, we are still often times puppets to what women want. We never are in control of women. That can be evidenced in flaking out. She really likes you one day and wants to be ****ed by you but the next day she doesn't feel like seeing you anymore so she never shows up at your date and when you ask about it, she tries to give some paperthin excuse thats lame as hell and thinks that in the end, she was in the right. It did not matter how the other guy felt. I think many DJs lose sight of that. Yes, we may be sticking our ****s into HBs but they could drop us at any given moment. Why? She thinks that she is better than you. Its not her fault; the preteen oriented media since they were 6 or 7 has been under this mentality. I can't really blame them because they're not the problem. The problem is the media of this preteen advertising group because they consist of white pasty AFCs that feel guilty about "past wrongs committed in the past."

 

[Starman]

*relaxed, Calm*

We can go back and forth like this. Some people find use for psychology, and some are against it here.

I find most people that are anti-psych are mostly against being "labeled" stereotyped and prototyped.

But the essence of human nature..to be able to THINK..and take those thoughts and put them into their existence..is the groundstone of Psychology.

What makes people tick? Why do we feel? etc etc

Psychology is not an exact science. Its not as easily observable as physical science. So there is a Huge margin of error between understanding its prinicples.

 

[Demon]

Just to add a little bit of information to the pile here...

psych- means "mind". -ology means "study of." Therefore, psychology means "the study of the mind." -iatry means "healing of." So psychiatry means "the healing of the mind." However, we are not technologically or medically advanced enough to effectively heal the mind which is the primary reason why I am against most current practices of psychiatry NOT psychology. I'm all for science and the advancement of our species but psychiatry is not about that. It's practice not study.

 

[Aztec]

Originally posted by Demon
Just to add a little bit of information to the pile here...

psych- means "mind". -ology means "study of." Therefore, psychology means "the study of the mind." -iatry means "healing of." So psychiatry means "the healing of the mind." However, we are not technologically or medically advanced enough to effectively heal the mind which is the primary reason why I am against most current practices of psychiatry NOT psychology. I'm all for science and the advancement of our species but psychiatry is not about that. It's practice not study.

So you are not in favor of the term psychiatry but not the essence of it. I don't think that we will ever be perfect in treating psychiatric illnesses but we sure have advanced far.


I have a couple of friends who are psychiatrist that would rather treat their patients with just talk therapy rather than drugging them.

 

[Framboise]

you guys are ****in wierdos I just dress as nice as I possibly can, gel my hair, and know that im as good as i can get.

 

[Demon]

Originally posted by Aztec
So you are not in favor of the term psychiatry but not the essence of it. I don't think that we will ever be perfect in treating psychiatric illnesses but we sure have advanced far.


I have a couple of friends who are psychiatrist that would rather treat their patients with just talk therapy rather than drugging them.

No, it's rare that I'd be against terms (a.k.a. words), but I am against psychiatric methods which involve using drugs that are potentially lethal. Any substance that directly affects the mind as strongly as drugs of psychiatry should not be prescribed especially since - like I said - our advances in medical technology are not nearly enough to know how the brain works. Anyone with substantial scientific knowledge knows that our scientists have not even begun to understand the mind to any degree of complexity just like the Human Genome.

 

[cestmoi]

Originally posted by Pook


I am saying that it is extremely LIMITED. As far as bulding people up, I find its results to be very disapointing.

This part of your reply most cleared up your opinion for me. I get it now. So perhaps you might agree that psychology isn't useless? But we must make sure not fall in the mode where we lead our lives by what it says.

I do beleive it is very important as long as you don't take too much of it practically, but more as a theoretical study of yourself. Combine this with the study of ethics and you might just be closer to doing as you say what a man needs to do

 

[Jin]

so.... is there anyway to actively improve being a narcassist and learn to be humble..??

as I am a narcassist, but not in the extremes that most pages online I have been reading about portray... I don't think I'm the center of the universe or talk in grandios language or gestures... but I do think I am better than some people... especially in the physical realm.. I am really critical of fat people...

anyway... is there anywhere I can read about ways to help me in my character in humility or is it just kinda find my own way and hope for the best...?

thanx for any and all replies...

Best,

Jin

 

[icepick]

(Suggested) cure for (so-called) narcissism:

Replicate in the WORLD what is going on in your MIND.

So you think you are so smart? Solve a hard problem, write a book, or come up with a brilliant idea.

So you think you are so hot? Find a girl that matches your hotness, go after models, rich girls, etc. (Or make money modeling!)

So you think you are so cool? Try to organize city-wide parties, get VIP in clubs, etc.

USE your talents rather than wallow in praise from other people that say how good you are.

Have some REAL goals in life, and then either you will accompish them (meaning that you have to set bigger goals!) or you will FAIL (realizing that you are not as good as you hoped other people will tell you.)

It seems like this narcissism is just a symptom that you need more goals in your life.

 

[cestmoi]

Very smart and practical Icepick. Just thinking about doing some of these things lowered my "narcissism" or "overlove for myself" or whatever you might want to call it. Hell there's people arguing in this thread of over the term even though they're not thinking about the same thing.

Trust me guys, most of you who think you're narcisstic - you're not. It's just that compared to your pre-sosuave days you have alot more confidence and trust in yourself. So you look at yourself from the eyes of your former AFC self. When you first start getting invited to parties (first signs of coolness), first time a girl smiles or shock winks at you, first time a girl (a 10 in your AFC eyes) approaches you!! Damn you think you're the coolest guy on earth that every girl wants and is approached all the time. But see you look at it from the point of an AFC. That's a side effect of starting to build confidence and becoming a DJ this fast. Your judging of yourself is trailing behind.

That's far from true narcissm trust me. That is a pathological SICK SICK SICK problem. My first girl who i've had oneitis with was a pathological narcis.

She really really though the world revolves around her. She actually beleived that the world was virtually built around her (big brother like). And that every single thing she did had a huge impact on anyone. Like she couldn't possibly go to classes without 3 hours of make-up coz "oh the whole college (5000) will talk about my hair being a mess, and then it'll spread to the cafes and I won't be able to go out at night". Truth is nobody ever even noticed her. That is how sick a true narcis is. If you're a true narcis you will have this real uneasy (almost headache inducing) feeling wherever you go that everyone is looking at you. A person suffering from it tends to fall in a very deep depression when rejected (for anything!). And I bet most of you guys were rejected for something in the two weeks. If you were a true narciss you'd be in such a deep depression that you wouldn't be able to come to this site and discuss this subject.

So guys you're not narcisses.

The number one point is that you're wondering if you are. Narcisses don't wonder if they are. Narcisses would actually shoot fire at anyone even jokingly suggesting they are. A narciss doing that test and getting such a score would probably hit the monitor "i'm not narciss!!" so hard it would break. Yes agression is also a symptom of narcisses.

Simple rules on how to recognize a narcis I wish I knew before dating one:

1. She never has any interest in what you do. - Mind you this can be a sign of no interest in you. But if she's a narcis she can just about give off every other signal (light kino, winking and even stroking body parts with ya), but you'd think "hey here's a hot chick and she's flirting like hell with me" and you forget to notice that in the 6 months you've been going out you know everything there is to know about her, and she... she knows your first name.

2. Extreme jealosy. If a narciss as much likes you (doesn't even have to be in a relationship with ya) she'll be extremely jealous at even the mention of another girl. Subtle jealosy is not only OK but the best sign that a girl wants you. But if she gets agressive when you speak highly of your female boss or your next door neighbour's great gardening talents WATCH OUT. This is due to the fact that she beleives that if she wants someone (you) she has a universal right to you, it's her own personal universe remember. And if another girl has as much as a 0.00000001% with ya then something is wrong with the universe that's hers (she's a god). She gets mighty furios.

Example:

You: Oh, you got a black labrador? That's cool coz my neighbour's got one too.
She: What's her name?
You: Oh, Laura, she's real nice.
Her: (nor narcistic jealosy): (trying to change the subject and looking a bit worried even challenged). Oh well nevermind, do ya like my new dress (flashing her decolte)
Her(narcistic jealosy): (Getting red in the the face) Oh yeah! Good for her! (gets in an agressive stance)

3. (Hope you never get this far) If you breakup with her she'll seriosly seek revenge. Badmouth you everywhere possible and possibly get agressive on you. She seriosly does beleive that if she loves you and you breakup with her there must be a crack in the universe. A world conspiracy against her.

In conclusion: avoid narcises like hell. They're the number one most dangerous girl to date and can cost you your life. No kidding: a friend of mine had to get a restraining order on one.

 

[Demon]

You're using the term "narcissism" in an incredibly wrong context. Those who naysay Egoism and Objectivism are those who are too ignorant to have any effective comprehension of either subject.

 

[Matt Rogers]

Thanks, guys for clearing up my belief that I was somehow flawed for having narcisstic tendencies. I think it is just chick thinking that has been going on for a long time. I am quite good looking in a pretty-boy, effeminate way (not enough for me to get obvious attention, and having been in all boys schools most of my life, had little evidence of girls finding me attractive) , and rather than using this to take action and approach girls, and use my above-average looks to attract girls, I have instead focused on whether girls find me good looking, worrying that nobody likes me, and putting on airs and being aloof. Maybe self-absorbtion and narcissistic tendencies are just a stage that some of us go through on the way to becoming a DJ.

However this chick thinking and another habit-intellectualising, tend to keep me stationary, and I know that these are bad habits I have to fix. Any ideas how?