Men *created* practically everything - why then do girls give us NO credit?

[Hooligan Harry]

Your argument goes along the sayings of, "Women should stay in the kitchen or the house, and the man should do the work." Basically, women have no value but pushing out babies. This is NOT TRUE and don't take my word on it, research women in history and line up the inventions/successes line by line with men and you will see that women have done just as many GREAT THINGS as men even considering the fact that women were not allowed to vote or do hardly anything some decades ago.

What an absolute crock of ****. The vote? THE VOTE? Democracy and the right of the public to vote is such a new concept that using the right to vote as an example of oppression makes no rational sense. Throughout history, common people were never allowed to vote. Women were without the vote for about 100-200 years longer than men.

When it comes to creativity, women pale into insignificance. We prop up their achievements in an aim to create a superficial equality that does not exist. When that does not suffice, we resort to blaming a conspiracy by men to oppress women. Everything from business to the arts to sciences. Dominated by men. The difference between men and women, and the reason why men have always been more successful, is because men dont need allowances to achieve. They achieve despite adversity, they dont fail because of it. That simple concept alone is unfathomable to women and manginas who believe its a god given right to be given a fair go. Its something the feminists never quite understood. Men developed, created an conquered without level playing fields, preferential treatment or a helping hand. They did it often did these things at high risk, socially, financially or even when putting their lives at risk.

Risk taking is what separates the sexes and its what makes men ultimatley more successful than women. It will never change. Jesus, the FACTS show that the women who do the best in the work environment tend to have higher natural testosterone levels. Basic biology points to the major hormonal difference between men and women being directly related to success in the workplace.

http://sciencestage.com/resources/women-testosterone-and-finance-risky-business

Women dont need to be our equal and we dont need to be theirs. We compliment each other. We are not equals in any way whatsoever.

I'm a man, why wouldn't I give myself and my gender credit? The point of my reply is not to BASH men and not give us credit, the point of my reply was to defend women from the BASHING you are doing to them.

I dont think that he is bashing women. I think he is trying to "fight back." Its a waste of time because he is up against a society brainwashed into thinking that masculinity is evil and competition is bad. He is also up against liberal kooks who unfortunately run the west these days and are running it into the ground.

Again my point, why are you so sensitive to giving women credit? I posted those two links as an example of why this agrument of yours is wrong, sexiest, and misogynist at BEST.

Women do BOTH, they can and HAVE excelled in the realm of creative ideas/innovation/entrepreneurship JUST LIKE MEN HAVE, while at the same time also bearing children.

Again, dont' take my word on it, research it dude. Leave this forum and some of the posters here who worship misogyny and see for yourself what I'm talking about.

I'm not taking sides, I'm just trying to point out the FACTS.

All these claims of misogyny. Man I tire of the shaming tactics. Its the refuge of the liberal chump. The automatic assumption that it will give you the moral high ground.

Entrepreneurship? Innovation? Where do you come up with this crap? Almost every single business model, from niche sector to macro economic, was developed by a man. Women complain of the glass ceiling while men start companies in their garage. How many women have taken a company from startup to listed? After decades of equal education and women dominating education in the last 20 years, most successful career women resort to opening up a salon or working from home as a consultant. They have careers as wage slaves and demand executive positions while they CREATE almost no companies that ever employ executives or many wage slaves themselves. The odd example is not an indication of success for an entire gender!

If women were truly the equal of men in business then we would see a 50/50 split in ownership wouldnt we? Hell, even a 20% ownership of the economy would not be too much to ask would it? If women are, as you say, achieving as much as men and this is a fact that you know so well, why is it that their achievements are anything but spectacular?

The FACTS you speak of highlight only how average women are when it comes to the traditional pursuits of men. That being rational disciplines like business and science. They are literally no where to be seen. A blip on the radar, even with modern day preferential treatment and continued efforts to level the playing field for them. I have no doubt you will also interpret those FACTS as misogynist, as if a fact could actually be misogynist.

Women are better suited to particular tasks. Raising children and tending to a home for one. They have never provided much evidence of their ability to achieve much outside that. Well, that is unless they have been shown to have higher levels of natural testosterone of course.

 

[The Message Boy]

Hooligan Harry says,

What an absolute crock of ****. The vote? THE VOTE? Democracy and the right of the public to vote is such a new concept that using the right to vote as an example of oppression makes no rational sense.

Harry after making statements like THAT why even continue to have a debate with you lol. Having the right to vote doesn't matter? The people you vote for direct your standard of living or LACK thereof!

Hooligan Harry says,

Entrepreneurship? Innovation? Where do you come up with this crap? Almost every single business model, from niche sector to macro economic, was developed by a man. Women complain of the glass ceiling while men start companies in their garage. How many women have taken a company from startup?

Now Harry, don't mean to shoot your agrument down but:

OPRAH!!
Mary Kay Ash
J.K. Rowling
Madame Walker
Coco Chanel

I don't have time to pull up more names. But I can if you need me to though, I'm not scared to use GOOGLE.

Hooligan Harry says,

Women are better suited to particular tasks. Raising children and tending to a home for one. They have never provided much evidence of their ability to achieve much outside that.

Guys come on now, how is this stuff not misogynist, sexist, etc.? The guy just basically said that a woman has NO VALUE outside of nurturing children and keeping up the house. This is the type of dumb bull**** talk that STARTED feminism!

 

[romangod]

Ha! This is barely a debate about women as it's a woman bashing thread basically stating that women are NOT creators and only copy-cat EVERYTHING that men do. This is NOT TRUE, not based on my personal views, but based on HISTORY and even TODAY'S economic progressions.

Men have done more, yes, but women have contributed and created things as WELL and you guys refuse to give them ANY credit, and that's why I said your stances are full of sexism (believing men to be the ONLY gender of worthwhile value) and misogyny (believing women to be worthless).

Maybe you haven't noticed your views? Maybe you are so full of your own smoke that you can't see how cloudly, sexist, and misogynist your stances are?


So I hate myself basically (seeing as though I'm a man), because I give credit where credit is due to great women of today and of the past that have CREATED/INVENTED valuable things that contribute to our society?

I hate myself as a man because I refuse to let a bunch of sexist/misogynist guys spit out garbage about how women have invented hardly NOTHING when a god damn 30 second GOOGLE SEARCH proves otherwise?

Yeah, your agrument makes ALOT of sense.

And our Girly-Man Award winner responds as expected with his acceptance diatribe.

Firstly, you don't even know the meaning of "misogyny". It is not the belief that women are worthless. It is the "hate" and "distrust" of women. There's a big difference.

You ramble on like a wuss about all their great contributions to society based on "history". You obviously haven't read much history. Trying to re-write it is Orwellian at best and total BS at worst. Yes, there have been some notable women throughout history but they are the exception to the rule and to give them equal weight out of political correctness is a total crock.

Actually, maybe you do hate yourself. There are many cases of women born into men's bodies. Maybe you're one of them. Your femininity is showing.

Cheers!

 

[The_Game]

"Women are the front covers, whilst men are the writing and information on the pages"

I quote myself there because that's how the world works.
Majority of the female population that exists on this planet have finally found ways to maninpulate their way into society and has passed this rule of thumb down to newer generations (the present) via one theme.......SEX.

Think about how many women out there use sex and their femininity to control how they exist in this world. Models, strippers, prostitutes and general hired guns (as mystery puts it)
We fall victim to it and that's what gives women more influence in this world, from sexuality and detest rather than any creative or innoventive input.

Don't get me wrong, I praise women who wish to use their brains instead of their breasts to get through life. That's what I find a quality woman but alas, just like intelligence itself in this world, it is only a minority. This vicious cycle will continue until we either learn to compromise a way for females to adapt to their strengths while we adhere to ours.

 

[radiodude]

What an absolute crock of ****. The vote? THE VOTE? Democracy and the right of the public to vote is such a new concept that using the right to vote as an example of oppression makes no rational sense. Throughout history, common people were never allowed to vote. Women were without the vote for about 100-200 years longer than men.

When it comes to creativity, women pale into insignificance. We prop up their achievements in an aim to create a superficial equality that does not exist. When that does not suffice, we resort to blaming a conspiracy by men to oppress women. Everything from business to the arts to sciences. Dominated by men. The difference between men and women, and the reason why men have always been more successful, is because men dont need allowances to achieve. They achieve despite adversity, they dont fail because of it. That simple concept alone is unfathomable to women and manginas who believe its a god given right to be given a fair go. Its something the feminists never quite understood. Men developed, created an conquered without level playing fields, preferential treatment or a helping hand. They did it often did these things at high risk, socially, financially or even when putting their lives at risk.

Risk taking is what separates the sexes and its what makes men ultimatley more successful than women. It will never change. Jesus, the FACTS show that the women who do the best in the work environment tend to have higher natural testosterone levels. Basic biology points to the major hormonal difference between men and women being directly related to success in the workplace.

http://sciencestage.com/resources/women-testosterone-and-finance-risky-business

Women dont need to be our equal and we dont need to be theirs. We compliment each other. We are not equals in any way whatsoever.



I dont think that he is bashing women. I think he is trying to "fight back." Its a waste of time because he is up against a society brainwashed into thinking that masculinity is evil and competition is bad. He is also up against liberal kooks who unfortunately run the west these days and are running it into the ground.



All these claims of misogyny. Man I tire of the shaming tactics. Its the refuge of the liberal chump. The automatic assumption that it will give you the moral high ground.

Entrepreneurship? Innovation? Where do you come up with this crap? Almost every single business model, from niche sector to macro economic, was developed by a man. Women complain of the glass ceiling while men start companies in their garage. How many women have taken a company from startup to listed? After decades of equal education and women dominating education in the last 20 years, most successful career women resort to opening up a salon or working from home as a consultant. They have careers as wage slaves and demand executive positions while they CREATE almost no companies that ever employ executives or many wage slaves themselves. The odd example is not an indication of success for an entire gender!

If women were truly the equal of men in business then we would see a 50/50 split in ownership wouldnt we? Hell, even a 20% ownership of the economy would not be too much to ask would it? If women are, as you say, achieving as much as men and this is a fact that you know so well, why is it that their achievements are anything but spectacular?

The FACTS you speak of highlight only how average women are when it comes to the traditional pursuits of men. That being rational disciplines like business and science. They are literally no where to be seen. A blip on the radar, even with modern day preferential treatment and continued efforts to level the playing field for them. I have no doubt you will also interpret those FACTS as misogynist, as if a fact could actually be misogynist.

Women are better suited to particular tasks. Raising children and tending to a home for one. They have never provided much evidence of their ability to achieve much outside that. Well, that is unless they have been shown to have higher levels of natural testosterone of course.

Excellent post. Right to the point. Men have strengths and women have strengths. They are designed to compliment one another. Not compete.

All this crap today about women having been just as successful as much as men with this...and that...is as stated above, the few examples picked out in history, which are usually all there is, to try and create an artificial illusion that women are somehow equal in terms of masculine traits.


It's total folly. Feminism has embarked on some weird mission to defeat nature and biology. It will fall on it's face in the end.

 

[jonwon]

There are alot of wise men in this thread, and the typical mangina's.

Makes me proud!

Keep up the truth! and the good work.


Holligan Harry, I salute you.

Also lets get something clear, if it wasn't for men, women wont be living in huts!

They would be up a tree flinging shi* at each other, or wiped out!
Men built huts too, and protected them.

You know what my GF said when I told her that?
She agreed.


Anyone ever seen a women on a building site?
Down a ditch?
Collecting rubbish?
Working the sewers?

You know the core foundation jobs!


You also dont see many women in science, Engineering, Maths (unless men make it easier) - Yes there are some women in those fields but only a small % - Feminists and mangina's would have you believe it's because Men held women down -

I call it 'ability'.

I also agree women do not give men the credit where it is due.

Instead they would much rather believe a fantasy of oppression - The reality is: Men natured, looked after and protected women - They did it for poon.

 

[The Message Boy]

This is getting boring, some of you guys continue to rant and rant but still you are saying nothing.

romangod says,

You ramble on like a wuss about all their great contributions to society based on "history".

Lol, yeah I know. I'm a WUSS and I'm pvssy-whipped because I pointed to the facts that women HAVE actually created and invented things through history, despite guys like you saying men created EVERY SINGLE THING, which is obviously wrong but of course I'm so pvssy-whipped I'm just making all of this up.

Those links I posted I created and I made up all those stories about women creating and inventing great contributions to our economic society. Yep, I know.

romangod says,

Yes, there have been some notable women throughout history

What?? Well, finally you admit that men have NOT created everything and that there have ACTUALLY been women that have been inventors and creators of things as well. Damn, it only took you four pages of text!

romangod says,

but they are the exception to the rule and to give them equal weight out of political correctness is a total crock.

See maybe if you read responses, instead of scanning and immediately hitting "Reply" when someone with a penis isn't joining in on your women-svck rants, you will cleary see that I said men have created and invented MAJORITY of everything. MAJORITY, not ALL.

Men have the most wealth, OF COURSE we have invented the most, duh. I said that numerous times. NUMEROUS.

The only reason I'm having this debate with guys like you is because as this debate began you spit out dumb claims that women have created and invented NOTHING and MEN did EVERYTHING. Which is flat out wrong.

However, despite your name calling I see that you finally admitted that there have been some notable women throughout history lol. It just took you four pages of RANTS against women before you finally gave them SOME obvious credit, which is a shame.

To throw a question back at guys like you who ask, "Why does everytime a guy says something bad about women the word 'misogynist' has to come up?" Well, why does everytime a guy DEFENDS a woman he has to be pvssy-whipped lol? I don't think either EXTREME is valid, however, when you guys were going off on a RANT on how women created and invented NOTHING, I don't know how one can't summarize the basis of those RANTS as hatred towards women which isss misogyny. I'm very aware of the definition thank you.

 

[Hooligan Harry]

jonwon, the sad thing is that women decided that raising children and tending home were lesser contributions. I think if you speak to most traditional men they would all agree that a womans contribution in the home and with children is just as invaluable as all the innovation men brought to the world. Hell, even those jobs traditionally held by them, like teaching and nursing are jobs they think are lower value.

Sad but true

 

[jonwon]

jonwon, the sad thing is that women decided that raising children and tending home were lesser contributions. I think if you speak to most traditional men they would all agree that a womans contribution in the home and with children is just as invaluable as all the innovation men brought to the world. Hell, even those jobs traditionally held by them, like teaching and nursing are jobs they think are lower value.

Sad but true

Sad, indeed, even sadder when you see the train wreck; 35-38+ women who put career before family - Having baby rabbies. Latching onto any guy who has potential to settle down, before they hit the big 4-0 -

Also I don’t know why men make such a big deal about things that you discuss and others - one only has to pick up a paper and see women bashing men all the time - This isn't even Women bashing, it's simply trying to set the record straight - But you see an articule asking for all men to do slave labour written by a women and its normal - But Woooo be the man to even question the female masters (from a mangina's viewpoint).

This **** needs to end, more men need to put the foot down.

 

[Hooligan Harry]

Message Boy

You are farting against thunder and you are starting to argue petty semantics. You tried to take the moral high ground by shaming others and attacking their world view when yours has been found wanting. You are still doing it by calling men, who state as a matter of fact that women have not created as much as men, misogynists.

Womens contributions pale into insignificance when compared to men. You dont need to hate women to make that statement. You need only be rational.

 

[Da Realist]

Men build; women nurture. We're equal, but not even. Feminism tries to even out society in terms of men and women which can never work. Why? Equal means that you have a difference in some area but it balances something relative to it. Even is equal with the addition of everything being the same in both groups. The easiest way to show it is through math.

For eamaple, this would be an equal relationship:

4+3=7=2+5

Both sides are equal to 7, but they use different numbers.
An even relationship would be more like this:

5+5=10=5+5

Both sides are the exact same and are even.

What happened with feminism is that some women forgot they aren't just like men. Hormones are different and vary in consistancy, musculature is different, drives are different in some many cases, and how we look at things are different. There's nothing wrong with the difference, but there has to be an acknowledgement of it somewhere. Biggest example is the special forces because I don't women are allowed in at least some of them. Why? My guess is that while both men and women can be raped, if a woman is raped and kept alive, she will have a baby and it's one more consideration in her decisions. Try telling that to a woman who wants to join and she won't hear anything of it though.

Getting back to my main point, feminism has poisoned both men and womens minds on relations between the opposite sex. Women think men are totally idoits who can't take care of themselves and guys thing women are spoiled control freaks. The sad thing is that neither one is totally wrong.

Women are always going to think men can't take of themselves because really it's their job to nurture and part of that includes seeing the person you're taking care of as inferior in a given situation. Don't believe me? Even ask a good wife why she cooks. Bet you the main reason is that she would never eat anything her man makes in the kitchen if it goes beyond cooking a hot dog.

With men, we see them as controlling because while some are, we also don't like to see people complaining without coming up with a solution. Sure, tell us the problem, but if you can't do it, get out of the way. If you can help though, we're all ears for the most part.

So basically one side is going to going to support while another is going to fix things. So men may be able to make things the world have seen before, but real women do make things easier in some respects. If some girl won't give you credit, she doesn't understand the balance and she's not good for you anyway. And some guys need to give women credit where it's due because the world can get a lot colder without the right woman on your side.

 

[Hooligan Harry]

Sad, indeed, even sadder when you see the train wreck; 35-38+ women who put career before family - Having baby rabbies. Latching onto any guy who has potential to settle down, before they hit the big 4-0 -

Also I don’t know why men make such a big deal about things that you discuss and others - one only has to pick up a paper and see women bashing men all the time - This isn't even Women bashing, it's simply trying to set the record straight - But you see an articule asking for all men to do slave labour written by a women and its normal - But Woooo be the man to even question the female masters (from a mangina's viewpoint).

This **** needs to end, more men need to put the foot down.

Mate, you are seeing more and more of it by the day. Women have been sold a lie. They think that their career is going to be one where they spend all day in boardrooms doing presentations or having power lunches in fine restaurants. The reality of that is quite different and very disappointing when they find out its not like TV.

They think they can have it all. The directors job, the 2.6 kids who are prom queens and the high school quarterbacks, the husband who is highly educated, cover model material that always knows what she wants. They are unrealistic in their expectations and that is proven by the divorce rate and the number of them that file for divorce.

So you are seeing more and more harpies who in their late 30's are childless, miserable, and wondering just what the hell they were doing with their lives. Of course, because its ingrained in them, they still blame men for it. They are miserable because they are no where and almost past it.

You would think they would plow themselves into their work. Deliver groundbreaking research, build bridges, try find a cure for cancer, open a business that encourages employing women. Most dont. In fact, based on statistics, almost none of them will do anything spectacular. They end up never going anywhere past middle management, tell the world that men are threatened by their success, while they hit nightclubs in the late 30's and early 40's chasing younger men in the hope that they can prove that they still have it.

As men who are aware there is little we can do. Unfortunately, Message Boy is what we would consider enlightened in todays society and that is a scary prospect indeed. The average man out there is so out of sync with his own sexuality and masculinity that nothing is going to force change. He thinks this is normal.

Men are not going to drive change because they are brainwashed and they are not quite in a corner yet. Not for a while yet anyway. Women are not going to force change either. They are even more rudderless then modern men. If men are not going to steer the ship, its going no where.

We are way off that still. I think there is a growing tide in the younger men and I think that the mens rights movement is gaining some steam because of the web. Its going to take time though.

 

[jonwon]

Message boy.

I dont want to jump on your nuts, one time long ago I was like you.

Read this please:

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/10/05/theyre-calling-for-slavery-now/

This is normal stuff in national papers - I can pick out shed loads of this stuff. I believe the OP was raging against this machine - and rightly so - Women have been given a voice and they use it bleat about some imaginary oppression whilst pushing for inequality, disguised has equality.

Men come on here for a release against this sort of **** and get called out on it, but women do it and there is no mention at all about:

Misandry -

Also try putting that into your microsoft word spell checker - there is no such word - But then try the male version.

Holligan Harry, excellent take again - I could have posted the same word for word, this forum will do well with the likes of you around to share this wisdom.

 

[romangod]

Lol, yeah I know. I'm a WUSS and I'm pvssy-whipped because I pointed to the facts that women HAVE actually created and invented things through history, despite guys like you saying men created EVERY SINGLE THING, which is obviously wrong but of course I'm so pvssy-whipped I'm just making all of this up.


What?? Well, finally you admit that men have NOT created everything and that there have ACTUALLY been women that have been inventors and creators of things as well. Damn, it only took you four pages of text!


Men have the most wealth, OF COURSE we have invented the most, duh. I said that numerous times. NUMEROUS.

The only reason I'm having this debate with guys like you is because as this debate began you spit out dumb claims that women have created and invented NOTHING and MEN did EVERYTHING. Which is flat out wrong.


To throw a question back at guys like you who ask, "Why does everytime a guy says something bad about women the word 'misogynist' has to come up?" Well, why does everytime a guy DEFENDS a woman he has to be pvssy-whipped lol?

You're an idiot who lives in his own little dream world. I never claimed that men invented everything and am quite aware of women's contributions to society. Despite your warped interpretations and political correctness, I adore women and do not despise them. However, I cannot sit by as wimps like you try and distort reality and re-write history.

The reason "pvssy-whipped" comes up with you is because reality is clouded in your need to be their sycophant. As for the word "mysogynist", you're the idiot that painted many of us with that label. Judge not lest ye be judged. I'll break my own rule and judge you.

You're a pompous dork who thinks he's smarter than he really is. Your history is not yet written but I guarantee you it will be ugly.


Cheers!

 

[Hooligan Harry]

I was just thinking the same thing

 

[SXS]

I like C-quenced.

Since his rep is not good, I'll help him a little bit.

 

[The Message Boy]

Haha. romangod are you mad at me? LMAO.

roman god says,

You're an idiot who lives in his own little dream world.

What dream world?! What are you talking about dude LOL? I posted GOOGLE links. Just what is MY dream world I would like to know.

romangod says,

I never claimed that men invented everything and am quite aware of women's contributions to society.

OK, you might have not said that. But the reason I AM in this debate, is because the OP said that. You don't remember? Ok, here's a reminder:

Trader says,

The fact is that men made *practically* all of the creative and technological contributions to society.

^^ He said men made ALL of the creative contributions to society. That's WRONG, flat out wrong and why we are even DEBATING this is crazy. This is why I posted Google Links. Any 30 second search engine search would prove this wrong. Also why I brought up the misogyny, because ANY GUY that spits out lies like this must OBVIOUSLY hate women.

romangod says,

However, I cannot sit by as wimps like you try and distort reality and re-write history.

romangod says,

The reason "pvssy-whipped" comes up with you is because reality is clouded in your need to be their sycophant.

What are you talking about??? LOL. Do three things or shut up:

> I want you to find ONE line of this thread where I bashed MEN.

> Then, I want you to find ONE line of this thread where I said women was better than men.

> Finally, I want you to find one line of this thread where I said women was EQUAL to men in wealth and the contributions they have made to our society.

romangod says,

Your history is not yet written but I guarantee you it will be ugly.

What are you a prophet now?? You can see into the future lol. Go right ahead and try to predict who the Username "The Message Boy" will be when he grows up lol.

Dude why are you so emotional? It's JUST a discussion forum lol.

 

[Trader]

Women don't take men for granted, they reward worthy men with access to the vag.

Feminism has created an unnatural social environment, but at the end of the day women have cave-woman desires. Ambition and creativity IS rewarded.

I agree with you that on the *individual* level - if a girl sees that you are worthy, and are creative and ambitious, she will definitely reward you with sex and companionship,she will give you credit, so to speak.

But I am talking about on a *collective level* - why do girls view guys in general with a DEFAULT frame of: 'Oh they are just horny dogs. They are not *smart* at all.' That is the question I am trying to figure out. Is it all the feminists fault or is there something else underlying this phenomenon?

Of course once the girl gets to know you individually as a person, then her frame changes.

This question posed is similar to the one in the other thread: Why is the DEFAULT frame for girls (western girls) - 'I am a goddess, worship me.'

Where do girls get this *default* frame from? I believe us men indirectly caused this.

 

[STR8UP]

But I am talking about on a *collective level* - why do girls view guys in general with a DEFAULT frame of: 'Oh they are just horny dogs. They are not *smart* at all.' That is the question I am trying to figure out. Is it all the feminists fault or is there something else underlying this phenomenon?

Of course once the girl gets to know you individually as a person, then her frame changes.

This question posed is similar to the one in the other thread: Why is the DEFAULT frame for girls (western girls) - 'I am a goddess, worship me.'

Where do girls get this *default* frame from? I believe us men indirectly caused this.

Not to sound like a condescending ass, but what do you want? A cookie? A pat on the back? Chicks to tell you how great you are? Not going to happen.

The "reward" you seek is ONLY on an individual level.

Men are expendable. Always has been that way and it will always continue to be that way.

Feminism has given women permission to think out loud. That's what you are complaining about.

 

[Zunder]

Women invented gossip.........and shopping.
So there!