Marriage

[Bungo Pony]

Originally posted by VeryBadGirl
And he has said he has been really glad we can talk about it so openly without pressure - that it has made him feel a lot better about it and know that it is the right decision for us and that we are both really commited to having a great marriage very similar to our great relationship.

Thank you for this response. I believe it will help in making my decision here. One thing I must say is noone can have complete control over how fast a relationship progresses. There is control to some extent, but not a full extent. There is no law on when these issues should be brought up in a relationship. It's all up to one person, and we've seen quite a few different opinions in this thread. However, even if I make a decision about how to deal with conversations like this, it doesn't mean I've made the decision to propose, I need more experience with my gf to reach that decision, and only time will provide that.

 

[ShortTimer]

Originally posted by VeryBadGirl
And you learn about this through living together. I have learned so much about our relationship and my boyfriend since we moved in together.

Anyway, even if you get engaged and then live together, I would still reccomend it. Others clearly disagree and I can see their points. But I think the positives outweigh the negatives.

This would seem to make sense, but I've found the truth is often counterintuitive. What's your opinion on the studies that have been done showing the people who live together before marriage have a much higher divorce rate than those who haven't.

"in 1992, the National Survey of Families and Households found that, in 3,300 families, married couples who had lived together first were judged to be 46 percent more likely to get divorced."

to put it another way:
" the risk of divorce after living together is 80% higher than the risk of divorce after not living together"

You cand find that here: http://www.ivillage.com/relationships/debate/livetogether/articles/0,9632,525009_527212,00.html

and here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5025b_qa.html

 

[GynecologyEnthusiast]

Great post, Short Timer.

And, by the way...

I've posted this many times before.

Living with a girl is the MOST AFC thing you can do. Period.

All other chumplike moves pale in comparison to this one.

 

[Bungo Pony]

Living with a girl is the MOST AFC thing you can do. Period.

I have to agree with this one. I look back on what I thought I would accomplish by living with my gf at the time. If anything it was an effort to hold on to her, to keep her with me. I figured since we were engaged, we may as well start everything off. Also I don't agree with the "let's see if we can tolerate living together" bull5hit. It's an excuse. Anyone can live together as long as they work together.

 

[prosemont]

I was once married. I didn't like it.

 

[VeryBadGirl]

OK, well, we personally enjoy it in our relationship, but I guess it is not for everyone.

But, BP has already said he isn't going to live with his GF, so it isn't really relevant anymore.

 

[JADT]

this is one amusing post! Please all athiests dont talk s _ _ _ to me after this,but maybe the reason why Jehovah God said not to have sex before marriage or fornicate is because you will be more apt to have a divorce later on if you do. We live in an age where sex before marriage is very much okay and playing house is a very common thing. A lot of marriages today aren't really built on true commitment or trust and a lot of people change after marriage OR some are actually REALLY insecure and the partner dont pick up on that before hand.Marriages,esecially nowadays the sex is the main foundation then whatever may come next.Most people do not realize that marriage can be a very wonderful great thing between man and woman,but if commitment and trust isn't there,it won't even stand a chance. I'm pretty sure most of you heard of the 5 percenters. 5 percenters are usually very succesful special people,they for the most part have their s _ _ _ together. Before anyone RUSH in,get yo s _ _ _ together AND make sure the other person has theirs together also. Being b/f and g/f for 2 or more years will actually mean you'll know them. I also recommend the one year rule,why waste time TRYING to know the person. The real person WILL usually come out when you get married. Sometimes they come out before hand,that's when you break it off if they have some real issues you do not want to deal with. I have an uncle who knew his girl friend for 2 years before they got married,they WERE married for 15 or 16 years. The real woman came out and well my uncle has always been a jerk,so no comment for him. Well they professed to being true christians and A LOT of christians are guilty of this and other jews and muslims too! So i wont discriminate Anyway one day she told him that she was only with him for security and he cheated on her then soon came the divorce. They weren't really doing anything for the marriage too make it work. He went bald and her looks depleted,hehe messed up situation,I don't really think they were thinking of how this was going to affect their child,A LOT could have been done,but they really had no mental growth and stimulation to become better people and they weren't really trying. She wouldn't even give it up to her own husband fr 9 months! So she HAD to be cheating too! oh well, i guess those 2 years of waiting were a waste,HELL the whole 16 years was! People also fail to realize we're not perfect so there is always room to make change and become better,if you don't make change,you'll just be STUCK! the same uncle got married again and got divorced in 10 months!! AGAIN professin to be good christians,now he has to pay child's support for his other daughter,too bad. When I spent my most horrible summer with him he said to me "I'll never change." . Too bad for him,I just know if he put hands on me again I'ma f _ _ _ him up,ANYWAY! hahaha, Be the best you can be AND maybe that would make the other person be the best that they could be,then of course it should be a happy marriage. It'll take work,but improving ourselves will take work also,I say pop the marriage question and don't beat around te bush. If you don't know any ways to improve yourself, you could do it sexually,physically,mentally,financially etc. The possibilities are ALMOST endless. I hope I helped take care everyone

~JADT

 

[Versace]

Don’t do it Bungo Pony! You have to be 100% sure and even then you need to double check your and her life goals. Be realistic and down to earth, because it’s easy to be persuaded that things will be better when reason tells us it won’t. Don’t compromise anything! The truth hurts and you need to know before this huge decision is made. I was married and it was the worst decision that I made (due to rushing in). Not only was I unhappy, but I discovered her personality was evil and I realized she was not as attractive as I first thought. Can you say infatuation? Now my motto is that there is no such thing as love or marriage; thus there being no such thing as "the one" woman for me. You post great advice and I’d hate to lose you man (no, being able to give good advice on this site is not a good reason not to get married).

 

[JADT]

oops i noticed a typing error I meant to say that knowing a person for two years doesn't mean that you will actually know them

 

[Bungo Pony]

maybe the reason why Jehovah God said not to have sex before marriage or fornicate is because you will be more apt to have a divorce later on if you do.

Wow! Thank you for Witnessing to all of us JADT. When you calculate your time, do you multiply how long it took to write a post by the number of people who've read it? Are you a full time or auxilary pioneer? LOL!

Versace, don't worry, I haven't got my head screwed on loose. I think my issue is the akwardness of the conversations, possibly because we're not being fully open about them. I'm not running off and getting married yet

 

[GynecologyEnthusiast]

Bungo, sit down and make a list of the pros and cons of getting married. You'll see that the upside is greatly outweighed by the downside.

Marriage is the biggest scam in the history of mankind. It's institutionalized AFCism.

 

[anakin]

Food for thought...

Wow!! What a thread! So many replies to work through…cannot believe I missed this all in just under a day!! Anyway, let me work through this thread…its gonna be a little long. So here goes:

I think VBG’s advice was actually very good here…and provides much food for thought. The other guys, RKTek and Cesare also touched upon some things I had been thinking of.

Originally posted by VeryBadGirl:

Some women do see marriage as a big party, white dress and lots of presents. They forget that after that there is a lot of grocery shopping, laundry doing, taking care of each other when sick, picking up each others dirty clothes, toilet cleaning, etc after that big party is over. There are lot of little quirks that you don't know from just going out on dates with someone. Because of course there is still dating in marriage - if you are good at it - but there is also a lot of non-dating and non-romance. Down right unromanticness. And you learn about this through living together. I have learned so much about our relationship and my boyfriend since we moved in together.”

Definitely true. If two people wish to get married two points are fundamental IMO:

1. The knowledge and understanding of what the people are letting themselves into. i.e. They see the WHOLE picture of marriage involves, not just the glossy side.

2. The willingness to make the marriage work on their part. There are many reasons why marriages break, most of them are particularly since one partner does not WANT to make it work – consistency and persistency are required to make marriages work.

3. OK, I’ll add a third! That word love! One must be able to love knowing the person completely…realising the faults of the partner and loving them for the whole person that they are.

If your girl understand the above, then those are all positive signs. Also, IMO, I would not consider marrying, until I believe I know the girl, and what I would be letting myself in for… IMO that would take 2 years to come to a confident/realistic decision.

Bungo Pony, you are correct in asserting that few DJs have experience walking down this path, yet I would have thought Sir_Chancealot and Gio Casanova would be able to provide a more detailed insight here. BondjamesBond is also married, from what I remember of his posts in the Don Juan Tips section, although he is a rare poster and mainly posted tips.

I agree that this discussion should be brought forward NOW, because it will hopefully give you ideas and areas that you ought to think more about…so in a year’s time, you will hopefully be in a far better position to make a sound judgement. To those others reading this, what I understand is that BP does not want to get married tomorrow, but simply has been made to think about it. Hopefully in one year’s time, you will be confident in assessing this.

I must also ask this: do not answer this question if you want to keep this personal, but how old is she? Factor this into your thoughts too…she may be hinting at marriage after 6 months if she is in her late 20s/early 30s, when women know their biological clock is ticking and that they have to settle down soon. Also, if she is in this category, she may also see her friends getting married and feel that she has to “catch up”. I’m probably wrong on this point, and if I am you can ignore this paragraph, but her age is also a clue as to why she is providing hints about marriage. As also may be the relationship status of her friends.

Also, I agree with VBG about the ‘heated argument’ idea…although not the fact that you should start one. It’s an interesting point that VBG brought up however…because it can provide an insight into her mentality. From what some friends have said, how a woman handles arguments, heated arguments and how sensitively she takes it also can provide a clue to the longevity of relationships. Today, women are more like to divorce after heated arguments whereas others are more likely to accept that arguments are parts of relationships. I guess the question is one of loyalty and it raises the fact that even on points you heated disagree, what are the chances of her remaining loyal? So it is a good “test”, if you will

It’s a sad fact of human nature that people are always looking for something better, yet I have come to the realisation that once I make a commitment to marry, I will stand by it, regardless of thoughts that “the grass is greener on the other side”. If both partners hold such a mentality, and love you, then the relationship is already built upon solid rock.

I also am a firm believer that a person should look into the woman for who she really is, her personality, how she responds to situations, how much of the “strength of loyalty” as I call it, she possesses. Much beauty, or ugliness can be found within her. If you can see into her for the person she really is, over time, and she does the same with you, I believe that the foundations of the relationship, into marriage, would be very strong.

I also think that living with a partner prior to marriage IS AFC. I’m glad that you concur. A friend of mine, considerably older than me, was in an LTR for 9 years…(nine!) before they broke up. They were living together for a considerable time, and he noticed that guys he did not know about kept calling her. He became a little jealous and asked who they were. She was vague. He gave her an ultimatum, either stop calling them or the relationship is over. She moved out the next day. WTF, nine years!!!

Also, the feelings have to be mutual. It may seem obvious saying this, but I knew of a guy who was in a LTR for 2 years, and when the girl moved to study abroad, she called him EIGHT DAYS later saying the relationship was over, since she had met another guy!!!

This is why I say that whilst TIME is an important factor…it IS NOT the most crucial factor – most importantly, IMO, one must look into the woman and see what she represents. Another clue to a woman is by seeing the type of friends she keeps. If she has cutey friends who are interested in knitting and cookery lessons (LOL, off the top of my head) try comparing that to *****y friends who go out and get laid often. The friendships she keeps also provide a clue to the person she is…


Hope this helps, and good luck, since you deserve it,


ANAKIN

 

[Liz]

BP, I just wanted to wish you luck in whatever you choose. I believe that if you are happy with who you are with than it is up to the two of you to make the choice on if and when the next step should be taken. My, fiance and I have not been together for a year yet. Even though we are engaged we are not getting married for about two years. Part of that is schedule issues and the other has to do with planning the wedding which should take about a year to plan and save money. Even if you propose in under a year being together doesn't mean that you are locked into place. Especially if you don't plan on having the wedding within months of asking.

Good Luck, and God Bless.
Liz

 

[Bungo Pony]

Re: Food for thought...

Originally posted by anakin
I agree that this discussion should be brought forward NOW, because it will hopefully give you ideas and areas that you ought to think more about…so in a year’s time, you will hopefully be in a far better position to make a sound judgement. To those others reading this, what I understand is that BP does not want to get married tomorrow, but simply has been made to think about it. Hopefully in one year’s time, you will be confident in assessing this.

THANK YOU! You are the second to understand what I'm trying to say here (VBG was the first). It's possible that I didn't word it properly in my original post, but has brought up some interesting discussion.

I must also ask this: do not answer this question if you want to keep this personal, but how old is she? Factor this into your thoughts too…she may be hinting at marriage after 6 months if she is in her late 20s/early 30s, when women know their biological clock is ticking and that they have to settle down soon. Also, if she is in this category, she may also see her friends getting married and feel that she has to “catch up”. I’m probably wrong on this point, and if I am you can ignore this paragraph, but her age is also a clue as to why she is providing hints about marriage. As also may be the relationship status of her friends.

This also makes sense. She is turning 24 next month, but it almost seems evident that she feels her biological clock ticking from a discussion we had a while back. I know this could be taken as a bad thing, however I haven't noticed any kind of posessive behavior unlike some of the other women I've met & dated who are in this category. She has dreams as well, and there are some things that she would like to accomplish before having children. She has told me that she doesn't want to be old and have kids - she wants to be young enough to still have fun with them. I've had this validated by married couples I know who have gone through marriage and have had children at a "late" age. They've told me they wish they had kids when they were much younger.

Another clue to a woman is by seeing the type of friends she keeps.

If she has cutey friends who are interested in knitting and cookery lessons (LOL, off the top of my head) try comparing that to *****y friends who go out and get laid often. The friendships she keeps also provide a clue to the person she is…[/B]

This is an interesting point. The odd thing is some of the people I were friends with in high school were friends of hers maybe a year or two later. We've found lots of common ground through this. I'm still in shock of how many people we know mutually.

 

[Bungo Pony]

Especially if you don't plan on having the wedding within months of asking. [/B][/QUOTE]
This is an interesting point you brought up Liz. I've been in this situation myself, and I will not take this route again. Engagement can be very exciting, and you start talking about the wedding. However, with no plans being made in a lengthy amount of time, the hopes, and plans for a wedding will start to wear off. In my opinion, if it's agreed on, the project should start almost immediately. This is why I'm waiting a significant amount of time before I propose.

 

[GynecologyEnthusiast]

I don't understand this biological clock stuff.

It's 2003. Women can safely have children into their late 30s and early 40s.

Why is everyone in such a hurry to flush their lives down the toilet?

All of my married/living together friends have become a complete drag with very few excetions. They have that pathetic look in their eyes like Al Bundy.

 

[VeryBadGirl]

Some people don't consider having children "flushing their lives down the toilet."

And, some couples are still happy and have a lot of fun when in a LTR or married - at least all the serious couples I know do. They are out there partying and having fun with the rest of us on weekends - marrieds, LTR's and singles alike hang out at fun bars pretty much every weekend.

Also, there are issues with having children late in life. The risk for miscarraige increases dramtically as you age. Sadly, a couple I work with experienced this firsthand - they waited until their late-30's to get pregnant and just lost a child.

 

[GynecologyEnthusiast]

Originally posted by VeryBadGirl
And, some couples are still happy and have a lot of fun when in a LTR or married

Some, like under 10%.

- at least all the serious couples I know do.

Sure, post again when the space shuttle lands.

Also, there are issues with having children late in life. The risk for miscarraige increases dramtically as you age.

Maybe, but it's much safer than it's ever been. If you really cared about not having a miscarriage, you would have got knocked up at fifteen when the risk of miscarriage was lowest.

Sadly, a couple I work with experienced this firsthand - they waited until their late-30's to get pregnant and just lost a child.

VBG likes to try to "prove" her points by supplying anecdotes from her circle of acquaintances. Anecdotes don't mean anything. It would be much more interesting if you had statisitcs.

We all make tradeoffs in life. Some people wish to trade their lives in so they can be with one other person all the time. And invariably, they wish they didn't.

Marriage is a tremendous swindle. Men don't have to participate anymore.

 

[anakin]

Another point I forgot to add is as follows. I remember talking to my friends a while back and the vast majority of them conclude that the time they felt "in love" and the "best part of the relationship" came 6 months to a year...and it was around the 1.5 yr period that things began to turn sour, and one month after that when the LTR broke.

Just another point to consider...time is an important factor...that's why personally I have a '2 yr mark' before I think one can be quite confident.


ANAKIN

 

[GynecologyEnthusiast]

Excellent post, Anakin.

In my 30-odd years I've had about four LTRs of more than 1.5 years.

That's about when it sours, after the 6 month mark.

Then it starts to rust away.