If you aren't going forward, you are giong backwards
- Thread starter backbreaker
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Victory Unlimited
Master Don Juan
Whoa! I had THREE PMs telling me to check out this thread. I'll spare you the words used to describe it---------but all I can say is...WHAT THE FUKK??? Uhh...what just happened here? I leave for a couple of days only to come back to discover that we've almost turned the place into "FIGHT CLUB"!
I'm amazed at how SERIOUSLY some of us take these Internet debates. I've seen this scenario play out MANY TIMES before. So much so, that I did a post about it YEARS ago. I really believe that it's appropriate to revisit it here. Allow me to quote myself:
ALTERNATIVE VIEWS MEMO
How should the soldiers here correctly process Internal Intel bandied about on the Internet Forums?
"Alternative views CAN be very valuable for us here. Sometimes, the injection of an alternate viewpoint can serve a variety of purposes:
1. Alternative views can cause posters who have a rather extremist view on some things to adopt a more holistic perception of the subject at hand. And subsequently, that original poster may see some value in taking a more "nuanced" and less "balls to the wall" approach to that topic than he would have considered taking before. Thus, bettering HIMSELF, inadvertently.
Extremism in ANY direction is usually a one-way ticket to either eventual failure, self-sabotage, or self-destruction.
2. Alternate viewpoints that strike a blow that FREES the hearts and minds of readers who may need to be delivered from the prison of "HERO or HEROINE Worship" is ultimately, A GOOD THING. An alternate viewpoint can help us realize that ownership of COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE is the sole property of NO ONE. We can all learn something from each other (whether the lesson be positive or negative)----and we can benefit in some way as the result of this.
3. Lastly, the "invasion" of alternate viewpoints can sometimes reveal personal, deep-seated issues that MAY exist within those who "read" them----and take serious issue with them. Many times when there is a vehement, overly heated, or damn near VIOLENT reaction to an alternate viewpoint-----it can be an indicator that the person who reacts this way is either too unhealthily extreme and/or too emotionally invested in his own views, OR, is too unhealthily extreme and/or too emotionally invested in actively "hating on" the person who had the sheer audacity to express that alternate viewpoint.
And when this happens, alternative views are then ONLY seen as OPPOSING-----and the WAR OF THE WORDS begins...
Either way, nothing reveals how sensitive a "VIEWPOINT NERVE" really is until it's actually "touched" in some way. Whether it be bitterness from past hurts, the shock from seeing a sudden flash of light that reveals the evidence of having a severe case of tunnel-vision, or simply an ingrained, adverse reaction to WHO or WHAT that poster represents to them-----the results remain the same for the offended party:
Intelligent discussion takes a BACK SEAT, emotional equilibrium is lost, while PRIDE, EGO, AND BLIND PASSION all struggle to grab THE WHEEL-----each fighting for control----each trying to steer the conversation in a direction that will ultimately benefit NO ONE.
So, no matter WHAT the poster who posts an alternative view may have initially meant to accomplish, how we process what has been "said" still remains OUR OWN individual choice.
I would only ask that we all show greater diligence in exercising our awareness------so that we may CHOOSE WISELY, soldiers.
Peace...one day."
In other words...how about we all just lighten "The FUKK" up?
V.U.
I'm amazed at how SERIOUSLY some of us take these Internet debates. I've seen this scenario play out MANY TIMES before. So much so, that I did a post about it YEARS ago. I really believe that it's appropriate to revisit it here. Allow me to quote myself:
ALTERNATIVE VIEWS MEMO
How should the soldiers here correctly process Internal Intel bandied about on the Internet Forums?
"Alternative views CAN be very valuable for us here. Sometimes, the injection of an alternate viewpoint can serve a variety of purposes:
1. Alternative views can cause posters who have a rather extremist view on some things to adopt a more holistic perception of the subject at hand. And subsequently, that original poster may see some value in taking a more "nuanced" and less "balls to the wall" approach to that topic than he would have considered taking before. Thus, bettering HIMSELF, inadvertently.
Extremism in ANY direction is usually a one-way ticket to either eventual failure, self-sabotage, or self-destruction.
2. Alternate viewpoints that strike a blow that FREES the hearts and minds of readers who may need to be delivered from the prison of "HERO or HEROINE Worship" is ultimately, A GOOD THING. An alternate viewpoint can help us realize that ownership of COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE is the sole property of NO ONE. We can all learn something from each other (whether the lesson be positive or negative)----and we can benefit in some way as the result of this.
3. Lastly, the "invasion" of alternate viewpoints can sometimes reveal personal, deep-seated issues that MAY exist within those who "read" them----and take serious issue with them. Many times when there is a vehement, overly heated, or damn near VIOLENT reaction to an alternate viewpoint-----it can be an indicator that the person who reacts this way is either too unhealthily extreme and/or too emotionally invested in his own views, OR, is too unhealthily extreme and/or too emotionally invested in actively "hating on" the person who had the sheer audacity to express that alternate viewpoint.
And when this happens, alternative views are then ONLY seen as OPPOSING-----and the WAR OF THE WORDS begins...
Either way, nothing reveals how sensitive a "VIEWPOINT NERVE" really is until it's actually "touched" in some way. Whether it be bitterness from past hurts, the shock from seeing a sudden flash of light that reveals the evidence of having a severe case of tunnel-vision, or simply an ingrained, adverse reaction to WHO or WHAT that poster represents to them-----the results remain the same for the offended party:
Intelligent discussion takes a BACK SEAT, emotional equilibrium is lost, while PRIDE, EGO, AND BLIND PASSION all struggle to grab THE WHEEL-----each fighting for control----each trying to steer the conversation in a direction that will ultimately benefit NO ONE.
So, no matter WHAT the poster who posts an alternative view may have initially meant to accomplish, how we process what has been "said" still remains OUR OWN individual choice.
I would only ask that we all show greater diligence in exercising our awareness------so that we may CHOOSE WISELY, soldiers.
Peace...one day."
In other words...how about we all just lighten "The FUKK" up?
V.U.
Scaramouche
Master Don Juan
Dear All,
I don't think The Breaker is wrong because I happen to disagree with him on a point of ethics....certainly not,he just has a different values system...He is a self made Man who has done it hard....I am one of those who admire altruism,the concern for the finer things in life,above crass materialism...but I am becoming increasingly aware,that this is also one of the Hall marks of a Culture in Decline...Sadly we are playing out the last stage in the final decline of Western Civilisation...In the days to come the Breaker will be better fitted to survive than most of us.
I don't think The Breaker is wrong because I happen to disagree with him on a point of ethics....certainly not,he just has a different values system...He is a self made Man who has done it hard....I am one of those who admire altruism,the concern for the finer things in life,above crass materialism...but I am becoming increasingly aware,that this is also one of the Hall marks of a Culture in Decline...Sadly we are playing out the last stage in the final decline of Western Civilisation...In the days to come the Breaker will be better fitted to survive than most of us.
DonJuanabe
Master Don Juan
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What this girl did was in no way unique. I would say it is common -- she wasn't getting everything she wanted in her relationship but stayed in it because she hoped it would progress and because there were no other branches of higher value available for her to grab. Then, while the relationship continued to drift along, a higher value branch was presented to her to grab so she grabbed it. This is how most relationships end! Women rarely end them without a backup guy at the ready.
Many things contribute to higher value, some are emotional, some are physical, some portray lifestyle/status, and women value all of them. Take my situation: I live in a cluttered, beat up apartment. Women over age 30 do not respect that whatsoever, so my perceived value falls. If/when I buy a house my perceived value will rise. If, while a girl is at my place, I say yeah I am saving cash so I can put down $300,000 on a house their perception of my value based on the apartment might change.
While women certainly want sex from a relationship they value security, social status, respect, and the need to be impressed as part of a relationship. Men don't really expect these things from women but I assure you they are always being weighed as part of a woman's perceived value of a man. If you're a 9 because of your looks you can get away with slacking in some areas. But if you're a 6.5 in looks and a 10 in having your sh*t together, overall you are probably a 7.5 to a woman who might be thinking of leaving her 7.0 boyfriend.
Many things contribute to higher value, some are emotional, some are physical, some portray lifestyle/status, and women value all of them. Take my situation: I live in a cluttered, beat up apartment. Women over age 30 do not respect that whatsoever, so my perceived value falls. If/when I buy a house my perceived value will rise. If, while a girl is at my place, I say yeah I am saving cash so I can put down $300,000 on a house their perception of my value based on the apartment might change.
While women certainly want sex from a relationship they value security, social status, respect, and the need to be impressed as part of a relationship. Men don't really expect these things from women but I assure you they are always being weighed as part of a woman's perceived value of a man. If you're a 9 because of your looks you can get away with slacking in some areas. But if you're a 6.5 in looks and a 10 in having your sh*t together, overall you are probably a 7.5 to a woman who might be thinking of leaving her 7.0 boyfriend.
The analogy isn't to just drop something for something better. It's if the opportunity arises and you would be happy with something else then it's your life.cordoncordon said:
Okay maybe my analogy did come off as a little greedy. What I was getting at is this, You find someone you are happy with great. You are in your early 20's strolling through life at the same pace growing with each other. Suddenly one person plateaus because they are living for the present and no real will to move on or set and reach any new goals.. The other person is seeking excitement, venture.. climbing that mountain.. Maybe it took them a while to realize it, or maybe they had some sort of epiphany. But no one should be forced to stay with someone to please the other person. Sometimes people change, it may be for better or worse.
In this case it looks like they both changed. But in opposite directions. The OP never said she was cheating on him, so there is no hard evidence of that. She was testing her options. She isn't married, and she realized she wanted to improve her life somehow and a change in relationship may just of been it.
No one knows the conversations that went on behind closed doors. If the relationship was 4 yrs long, I doubt she just up and left. She probably gave subtle hints or warnings far in advance.
Now if she was banging guys, and telling him she loved him, and meeting some other guy for a quickly shortly after then yes, I'd side with the rest of you. In this case, there is nothing wrong with trying to improve your life. She wasn't happy standing still he was.. so she moved on.
I actually saw a study on this. They took random girls off the street and showed a select few of those girls a picture of a guy. He was about a 6-6.5. They were told he's a successful guy making $250,000 a year. Then they showed them a more attractive guy, muscular, probably a 9. Said he made about 35k a year. The guy who made more money was voted more attractive to the ladies and favored overall.DonJuanabe said:
They did this same test with the other control group of girls, but reversed the men's roles. Obviously the more attractive guy who made lots of money won. When girls looked at the unattractive guy and was told he made less than 40k a year.. they said he wasn't really that attractive, and that they would pic the other guy.
cordoncordon
Master Don Juan
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Actually BB said she was cheating on the ex bf. She had met the new guy for many dinners, and BB's wife believes they have had sex.headFirst said:
I know I saw that. But I guess I'm going off the fact that there wasn't really solid evidence she had sex with the other guy. Who knows though.cordoncordon said:
In the end I don't know this B!tch.. And I can care less about her.
I'm just agreeing to the fact that this guy couldn't expect to walk down easy street all his life and keep a girl who seems to have a lot of options. I was defending my reasoning for agreeing with BB.. which incidentally favored the girls long term motive.. not in sleeping with some dude while dating another if that really did happen.
DJ's rule #1: observe what women do, not what they say they do.headFirst said:
You do realise in your first scenario, there is nothing stopping women from using both men, right? You think they're just gonna pick one and be done with it?
Women can fvck a guy for many different reasons: because they're genuinely attracted, just horny and he's the closest available d1ck, or want to extract resources from him.
If having a successful career and making good money were the definitive answer to women, this site (and similar ones) wouldn't exist.
zekko
Master Don Juan
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I feel bad for the guy, but the girl has the right to date whoever she wants to. I don't agree with the way she went about it, but I'm not surprised. Aren't we told that women will get a firm grasp on the next branch before letting go of the current one?
Also, there was probably no way for her to break it off that would have been painless for the guy. Since she cheated on him, maybe he can comfort himself that with thoughts that she was a low quality woman.
But they weren't married, the woman definitely had the right to break it off and go date somebody else, whatever her reason. I'm not totally convinced this was because of his career, but I don't rule it out either. The idea that it was his lack of ambition is supported by this:
Also, there was probably no way for her to break it off that would have been painless for the guy. Since she cheated on him, maybe he can comfort himself that with thoughts that she was a low quality woman.
But they weren't married, the woman definitely had the right to break it off and go date somebody else, whatever her reason. I'm not totally convinced this was because of his career, but I don't rule it out either. The idea that it was his lack of ambition is supported by this:
We aren't told what the comments were here, but I imagine they were something along the lines of "My friend is so lucky marrying that Backbreaker guy, because he's loaded, and has such a nice place to live". If you're a guy and your girlfriend/wife has friends who are jealous of her because of you, that's about the best position you can be in.backbreaker said:
cordoncordon
Master Don Juan
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I don't think anyone here really knows why BB is upset tbh. I know I don't. A few people disagreed with him yes, but no one was going after him personally.Victory Unlimited said:
What am I missing??
DonJuanabe
Master Don Juan
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Jitterbug:
"If having a successful career and making good money were the definitive answer to women, this site (and similar ones) wouldn't exist."
No one said definitive answer. It is, however, reality that women look at the total package when choosing the guy they date. There are many facets to this, looks is one part. There are others such as status, money, personality, etc. TOTAL PACKAGE.
"If having a successful career and making good money were the definitive answer to women, this site (and similar ones) wouldn't exist."
No one said definitive answer. It is, however, reality that women look at the total package when choosing the guy they date. There are many facets to this, looks is one part. There are others such as status, money, personality, etc. TOTAL PACKAGE.
Atom Smasher
Master Don Juan
V.U. is right on the money. Why do we get so emotionally invested in this stuff? EGO.Victory Unlimited said:
Some posters here are revealed to be very thin-skinned when two or more posters disagree with them. They feel it is an attack on their credibility, EXPECIALLY when they have lots of green dots.
In fact, the members of the "Lots 'O Green Dots Club" need to be careful that they don't let that affect how they write or how they respond. They must also be aware that they are going to be occasionally challenged by some guys here and there who are envious of the almighty green dot. I've had a few come my way, where they feel like they are David challenging and hopefully smiting what they perceive as Goliath. In reality green dots are nothing more than a nod of appreciation from our peers.
Who is Atom Smasher? A one-dimensional personna. A small portion of that which makes up the real man. It is who I choose to reveal myself as, very often in a tongue-in-cheek with a bit of "know-it-all" arrogance thrown in for good measure. In the midst of that there is some solid advice and alternative perceptions that sometimes erupt from my brain and gain a nod of appreciation. The key phrase here is "tongue-in-cheek".
Who is V.U.? Who is BB? Who is Iceberg, who is any other frequent poster? Each is just a representation of a small slice of the pie that actually makes up the man. A personna.
Aren't we here just to help each other out a little when we can and exchange ideas? When challenged, it shouldn't be that monumental a thing where our egos bring us to the point where we state that "almost everyone here fu_king sucks" and then leave in a hissy fit.
Like someone else said, it's that time of year again. BB will be back, and it will be business as usual.
"One-dimensional persona." Yep. That sums it up perfectly. So was our picture of the restaurant manager. For all we know, he's working on a time machine in his basement. Lots of us pursue hobbies or studies or jobs that most people wouldn't understand even if you took a couple days to explain to them. That's the problem living in this superficial culture. It's like the stereotypical Ugly American who greets strangers with "What line are you in?" (Basically, how much money do you have and how do you get it?)
Wow.
BB, you've been on the internet long enough to know the score.
It's those that are here to circlejerk (agree with the things they all believe)
those who will disagree
those who will try to get a rise out of people (trolls)
those who are here to learn
and those who are here to teach.
Stop looking for the circlejerk and stick to teaching. Does a teacher get pissed because some students fail? Nope, he doesn't. But circlejerkers sure do get mad when the jerk doesn't come back around their way. You're better than this bro.
BB, you've been on the internet long enough to know the score.
It's those that are here to circlejerk (agree with the things they all believe)
those who will disagree
those who will try to get a rise out of people (trolls)
those who are here to learn
and those who are here to teach.
Stop looking for the circlejerk and stick to teaching. Does a teacher get pissed because some students fail? Nope, he doesn't. But circlejerkers sure do get mad when the jerk doesn't come back around their way. You're better than this bro.
Iceberg
Master Don Juan
Yeah man, it's not even so much that they're "failing". They're just disagreeing with him or challenging him. Which is fine, really. THe internet is a big place. Can't expect everyone to agree.Warrior74 said:
Either way, he's a good dude. And he'll be fine.
zekko
Master Don Juan
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I just realized something about this restaurant guy. Back on page 3 BB says he has two roommates. So this girl was living with him and a couple of other people? I can't say I blame her much for not liking that arrangement.
I know housing in California is expensive, but still.
I know housing in California is expensive, but still.
I don't have time to go through every post on this thread, but you make an excellent point which caught my eye as well.zekko said:
I did a quick search on glassdoor.com and found that a manager at a Ruby Tuesday's makes an average of 62k a year (with an average range of 45kish to 80k a year). Considering BB lives near the Los Angeles area where the standard of living is much higher and this guy has had 4 years of exp as a manager, I anticipate that this guy is making at least 70k a year and that's assuming he works at lower-tier corporate restaurant....and he lives with two roommates for 4 years?
If I had to guess, this guy doesn't have his life straightened out, whether it be his finances or what not. Add in the fact that BB smelled trouble years ago and described this guy somewhere along the lines of being a loser, I can imagine what type of guy he is. When a GUY thinks of another guy as a loser, and is unmotivated as hell that is a troubling sign. And guess what? Women's standards are much much higher.
I'm not condoning her behavior b/c I think branch swinging and cheating are certainly wrong, but if my assumptions are correct, I am quite certain that most women, including "high quality" women, at the very least would consider leaving at the multi-year mark with this type of guy.
This is the world we live in folks.
There's not enough to go on in the details provided for me to say the guy's a loser or not. Maybe he is, but it's kind of offensive to me to label a guy a "loser" because he hasn't accumulated as much material possessions as the next guy. What makes a person a loser? Is it a benchmark of things they should have accomplished by a certain age? Is it their attitude and disposition? Is it what they chose to do with their free time?jhl said:
He's a supervisor at a "nice restaurant" in a state with double-digit unemployment at the age of 27. That's not the mark of a "loser" to me. Maybe the guy is living with roommates and keeping his living costs down because he's saving up money for a rainy day, his eventual retirement or a place of his own. Who knows? Just not enough details. Or maybe he really is drifting through life. The OP never presented any evidence of the guy being a loser other than his car wasn't as nice as the BMW the new guy has, and he's living with roommates whereas the new guy has a nice condo of his own. I can certainly agree that on paper and the surface the new guy has a bit better resume, but it's kind of offensive to me to slam the old guy as a "loser" solely because he doesn't have as much stuff or toys.
I'm all for being ambitious and striving to better ourselves personally and professionally, and if the OP's point was to not get complacent in a relationship and that women value men that are ambitious and going places in life, I have no argument with that. This was just a very poor example to try and illustrate that maxim. Defending a cheater and blaming the guy for her infidelity is just obnoxious, and he got pissy and couldn't handle it when some of the posters pushed back on him for that.