I don't get PUA's

[backbreaker]

i don't understand why you are so hostile towards the dude my dealings with women are pretty mcuh verbatium what he stated.

with that said, i'm not a guy that hangs around clubs and bars all that much. i could see how the **** could possibly work in that type of enviroment but i've never had to resort to that stuff

Just being, nice, funny but not overbaring works for me when i am trying to pick up women. lol it's called flirting.

i think my issue with PUAs is that they try entirely too hard. Here is a good analogy. a perfect one actually

as all of you now i did a lot of drugs back in the day. i had no real side effects, no long lasting issues, expect one. it took a year for me to be able to go to sleep without using over the counter sleep aids. the ability to fall asleep on my own was just shot. i could sit in bed for days i could be tired but the ability to go to sleep was gone. it was never something i put any thought into before hand. it's at night okay i' going to lay in bed and about 10 mins later i'm sleep. this is how i slept the majority of my life. now i can't do that anymore.

the reason i say this is a perfect analogy is that PUAs are like guys who run to the store and stock up on Benadryal and abuse the **** out of it just so they can go to sleep, without addressing the problem, and the problem is that my body had pretty much stopped producing melatonin.

Benadryal, will work. Just like PUA will work. but it has side affects. you build up toloerance, they leave you groggy the next morning and you eventualy can't go to sleep without those either but you are taking so many after a few months that you cant' function the next day.

If a solution to any problem isn't practical it's not spiritual taking benadryl for the rest of my life was not a viable option, so i fixed the root of the problem and that was my sleep routine. now i take 2 melatonin pills and i soak in the tub for 30 mins before i am ready for bed with Epsom salt. i have to dot his or sleep isn't happening lol, even to this day. but it works for me.

the problem to you not getting laid isn't to become a jerk or to neg the **** out of women or to disqualify yourself it's to become more attractive or alter your expectations. IF you can't get laid it's beucase you are't attractive to the women who you are trying to have sex with. Either become more attractive or scale down. The day a nice converatoin, a few jokes, and a hard "hey i lie you and i want to take you out" doesn't work is the day i need to fix something with me, not come up with a new tactic.

 

[Lexington]

i don't understand why you are so hostile towards the dude my dealings with women are pretty mcuh verbatium what he stated.

No hostility, just rebutting some of this claims.

with that said, i'm not a guy that hangs around clubs and bars all that much. i could see how the **** could possibly work in that type of enviroment but i've never had to resort to that stuff

With this very thread you've demonstrated that you don't quite grasp what that "stuff" even is. You dissed a girl and then tried to attribute that to PUAs as if that's something which they promote.

Just being, nice, funny but not overbaring works for me when i am trying to pick up women. lol it's called flirting.

This is vague and non-specific. What precisely does being nice, funny and not overbearing mean?

What's funny to you might not be funny to someone else and perhaps not to the girl you're trying to hit on.

The original post shows an example of you trying to be funny and failing miserably.

i think my issue with PUAs is that they try entirely too hard. Here is a good analogy. a perfect one actually

So what you're telling me is that Mystery, Tyler and all the other PUAs who put themselves out there aren't successful with women? Because it seems that their "trying too hard" is working quite well for them.

Yes, it's possible they're full of sh*t and all their videos are staged. But like I said, it's also possible that these forums are full of lard a$$es whose only loving comes from their sweaty palms.

All we have to go by are people's claims. At least these PUA types put themselves out there in the public eye. They also put forth specifics to be critiqued and tried instead of making vague claims behind the anonymity of the internet.

the problem to you not getting laid isn't to become a jerk or to neg the **** out of women or to disqualify yourself

This is a straw man argument. No well known PUA advocates becoming a jerk or "negging the **** out of women."

it's to become more attractive or alter your expectations. IF you can't get laid it's beucase you are't attractive to the women who you are trying to have sex with.

Yes, and the whole point of PUA is to make yourself more attractive to these women!

Obviously, it's important to be in shape, dress well, be successful etc. But any good club or bar is full of sharp-dressed, successful dudes who obviously work out.

How you conduct yourself, the things you say and your body language have an effect on whether or not you're going to score. Besides, most PUAs also promote things like cultivating hobbies, working out, mediating etc.

Either become more attractive or scale down.

This is non-specific. Obviously one has to become more attractive to attract women. But what exactly is "more attractive?" As it turns out, opinions vary. For example, a lot of guys were led to believe that being sweet, sensitive, non-sexual and supplicating is the way to attract a woman.

The day a nice converatoin, a few jokes, and a hard "hey i lie you and i want to take you out" doesn't work is the day i need to fix something with me, not come up with a new tactic.

Yes and how exactly are you going to start this said conversation, tell these jokes and ask her out? Once again you're being vague. I guarantee you that if you put forth a detailed explanation of your specific methods and the things you do, people will criticize and cast doubts on those as well.

The bottom line is that it's easy to say "haha those stupid PUAs." But at least they've put themselves in the public eye and put forth specifics on how to attract women. That's more than can be said for anyone here.

 

[zekko]

With this very thread you've demonstrated that you don't quite grasp what that "stuff" even is. You dissed a girl and then tried to attribute that to PUAs as if that's something which they promote.

Well, BB did say he doesn't use PUA tactics, so there's no reason to think he would be proficient in their use, is there?

Personally, I have no interest in being a PUA. I keep reading that this isn't a PUA site, so that shouldn't be a big deal. I meet enough women in my everyday life that I would have plenty of dating options if something happens with my current girlfriend.

I think that Backbreaker, like myself, is more interested in the self-improvement aspects of this site. He knows he has built himself into a high value male, so he has that confidence going for him, he can afford to dress well, etc. He's a former car salesman so I suspect he has an engaging personality.

Men and women have natural chemical attraction with each other, you don't have to use tactics like negs to bring it out, especially if you have a good personality. If it's true that Mystery invented the neg, you have to remember that men and women were getting together for thousands of years without it. Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with using negs, I'm just saying it isn't strictly necessary.

I don't really neg women. I tease them a lot, and bust on them, but that's more of a mild form of flirting. I wish there was more emphasis on flirting on this site honestly, instead of all this "be sure you don't care about her or let you think you care about her" message that is constantly being blared. That's why I like kino, it's a great way of flirting.

I think that if you have the right mindset down, that you are a high value guy, and that you are not impressed with a girl simply because she's attractive physically - I think you can say a lot of the same things just with body language as using a neg. Being indifferent, or unreactive (which are also PUA tactics) can send the same message. I prefer to be a little more authentic and honest in my relations with women (as opposed to being manipulative - not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with being manipulative!). But I'm not under any pressure to pick up a girl in a club, get an instant makeout, have a screw in the bathroom, or get a girl's number.

 

[Atom Smasher]

Don't forget, a large percentage of men who avail themselves of "pua" products are men who through no fault of their own are socially retarded. They have no clue whatsoever how to deal with women, especially in this hostile, female - centric age.

Therefore they must turn to tactics (i. e. Negging , C&F, etc.) in order to provide some kind of structure upon which to build. They are necessary training wheels with which to provide that structure and provide reference experiences.

These tactics are like the old Saturn 5 rocket. In order to achieve enough velocity to escape the earth, the third stage carrying the astronauts required a first and second stage, both of which had to be jettisoned as their usefulness transitioned from essential to a deficit.

Therefore I see value in these techniques as a clueless man uses them and starts to build those positive reference experiences, which will eventually provide the structure he needs to be able to improve in his social dealings. Once a critical mass is achieved these techniques can go on the back burner and used with purpose, skill, and nuance.

 

[backbreaker]

Don't forget, a large percentage of men who avail themselves of "pua" products are men who through no fault of their own are socially retarded. They have no clue whatsoever how to deal with women, especially in this hostile, female - centric age.

Therefore they must turn to tactics (i. e. Negging , C&F, etc.) in order to provide some kind of structure upon which to build. They are necessary training wheels with which to provide that structure and provide reference experiences.

These tactics are like the old Saturn 5 rocket. In order to achieve enough velocity to escape the earth, the third stage carrying the astronauts required a first and second stage, both of which had to be jettisoned as their usefulness transitioned from essential to a deficit.

Therefore I see value in these techniques as a clueless man uses them and starts to build those positive reference experiences, which will eventually provide the structure he needs to be able to improve in his social dealings. Once a critical mass is achieved these techniques can go on the back burner and used with purpose, skill, and nuance.

this is the way i see it.

okay, i got to this site in 2002. I was clueless. about everything. if i wasn't somewhat handsome i would have been an utter failure with everyw oman on the face of the earth beucase i had no clue as to what i was doing. girls just told me they thought i was cute and i'd date them lol. but i didnt' know what i was doing.

then i ran into this one girl who i just HAD to have. and i tried to run what little game i had which of course, was not game it was white knight ism. flowers, jewelry, poems, letters, late night phone calls, etc. of course it didn't' work

then when all of that did not work i came here. NOW at that very moment, in my life, i could see the the value of a neg. i didn't even at that point in my life know how to have stimulating banter with a woman. all i did was tell the girl how pretty i thought she was and hope she would give me some lol. AT that point telling me backbreaker, it's okay to not compliment a girl every second, was the best thing anyone could have told me because i didn't get it. AT that point i was afraid to do anything that seemed offensive or put her on her heels.

But ****, by the time i was 21 years old, which would have been 2 years on this site i got all that. i could go to a club and talk to a chick. i actually did the 100 rejection thing that no one here ever does anymore and you get used to talking to women.

At that point, once i understood the basic dynamics of how to talk to a woman, negs basically stunted my growth if that makes any sense. i would get further just by being engaging yet not over supplicating.

and plus if you are actually socially retarded, i doubt you could use a neg correctly anyway without coming off as creepish. even when i used the neg / ****ty neg in my OP i didnt' come off as a creep

 

[Lexington]

Well, BB did say he doesn't use PUA tactics, so there's no reason to think he would be proficient in their use, is there?

The problem is that he's ascribing things to them that they never promoted. Show me one well known PUA who encourages humiliating a woman in front of her daughter....

Personally, I have no interest in being a PUA. I keep reading that this isn't a PUA site, so that shouldn't be a big deal. I meet enough women in my everyday life that I would have plenty of dating options if something happens with my current girlfriend.

And I guarantee you that some of the things you say and do (much of which you might do naturally), are things that PUAs also encourage. Negs are controversial....but that's not the only thing that PUA game is built on.

Some of the other things that PUAs promote include: strong eye contact, humor, kino, not fearing rejection, constantly be closing. I think most of us would agree with these tactics.

I think that Backbreaker, like myself, is more interested in the self-improvement aspects of this site.

Lately this site seems to be mostly about railing against feminism and b*tching about how sh*tty the dating game is today. I don't disagree with most of what's said here, but those discussions don't provide practical methods to get laid/get into a relationship.

He knows he has built himself into a high value male, so he has that confidence going for him, he can afford to dress well, etc. He's a former car salesman so I suspect he has an engaging personality.

Yes and by his own admission, he was at one point "clueless." I was too. So were many of us on these forums and that's what brought us here in the first place!

PUAs attempt to help people understand the mechanics of interactions with women and make them unclueless. There are some people who naturally just get it, but a lot of men really don't.

Men and women have natural chemical attraction with each other, you don't have to use tactics like negs to bring it out, especially if you have a good personality. If it's true that Mystery invented the neg, you have to remember that men and women were getting together for thousands of years without it. Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with using negs, I'm just saying it isn't strictly necessary.

Processes such as genetic replication were going on for billions of years before people started to understand them in the 20th century. A lot of PUA material is stuff that people have been doing for centuries without necessarily knowing it. PUA material is the study of what works and its application for the purposes of getting laid.

I don't really neg women. I tease them a lot, and bust on them, but that's more of a mild form of flirting. I wish there was more emphasis on flirting on this site honestly, instead of all this "be sure you don't care about her or let you think you care about her" message that is constantly being blared. That's why I like kino, it's a great way of flirting.

And if you ever go check out the RSD forums there's much less of the general negativity towards women. Most of the folks there are aware of the harsh realities as well but they're more interested in how to navigate the current sexual market than b*tching about it. There are lots of practical discussions on how to flirt.

I think that if you have the right mindset down, that you are a high value guy, and that you are not impressed with a girl simply because she's attractive physically - I think you can say a lot of the same things just with body language as using a neg.

You make it sound like the neg is the only PUA tactic. The neg isn't even something that you must do. It's just another tactic in your toolkit. The bolded part of this quote is pretty much promoted by every well known PUA out there.

Being indifferent, or unreactive (which are also PUA tactics) can send the same message. I prefer to be a little more authentic and honest in my relations with women (as opposed to being manipulative - not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with being manipulative!).

Like Atom Smasher said, these tactics are training wheels initially. Eventually, they will be incorporated into your personality and you will do them without even thinking. In essence, they will become authentic.

For the guy who is struggling with women, one has to start somewhere. Just saying "oh make yourself high value, be confident and don't take women too seriously" doesn't give him specifics.

But I'm not under any pressure to pick up a girl in a club, get an instant makeout, have a screw in the bathroom, or get a girl's number.

You might not be under any pressure but a lot of people actually enjoy picking a girl in the club and doing some of the things you said. I personally find the experience of meeting a hot girl at the club, taking her home and fvcking her to be quite exhilarating. I don't do it because I "feel pressure" I do it because it's fun.

 

[zekko]

And I guarantee you that some of the things you say and do (much of which you might do naturally), are things that PUAs also encourage. Negs are controversial....but that's not the only thing that PUA game is built on.

Oh I'm sure. I have nothing against negs, I just don't tend to use them. I'm more of a teaser, goes with my personality better, and still has the effect of showing that I'm comfortable with women.

Yes and by his own admission, he was at one point "clueless." I was too. So were many of us on these forums and that's what brought us here in the first place!

I was definitely clueless as well. I think it's probably part of the process of growing up for most of us. Most of my "AFC-ness" was beaten out of me at a fairly young age, though. School of hard knocks. I learned early on that being the sentimental schmuck did not work, and that's a lesson that is hard to forget.

And if you ever go check out the RSD forums there's much less of the general negativity towards women.

I wonder why that is? Over there of course, there is all the annoying "fanboy" stuff you have to wade through. But they're not so negative as so many guys are here. I guess it's probably part of the RSD philosophy, you're not allowed to be negative. If you're being negative, you're being a chode.

So many guys here have a sh!tty attitude not just toward women, but toward life in general. But I was very negative when I was younger too, so maybe I shouldn't talk. I had to learn that being positive was better.

For the guy who is struggling with women, one has to start somewhere. Just saying "oh make yourself high value, be confident and don't take women too seriously" doesn't give him specifics.

Improve yourself. Hit the gym, dress well, get your finances in order, get on the right career track, have things you are passionate about, go practice being social. When I was trying to overcome my shyness, I took every opportunity to socialize so I could practice.

You might not be under any pressure but a lot of people actually enjoy picking a girl in the club and doing some of the things you said. I personally find the experience of meeting a hot girl at the club, taking her home and fvcking her to be quite exhilarating. I don't do it because I "feel pressure" I do it because it's fun.

Oh, I'm sure at one point in my 20s I would have loved to have gotten into this PUA stuff. Probably would have done me some good, too. We were all out trying to pick up girls anyway, and I did my share of plate spinning.

I remember a few skeevy PUA types trying to hit on a girl I was with, I always thought that was very disrespectful. And that is something PUAs encourage. I still think it's disrespectful to try to pick up up a girl when she's with some other dude. Let the guy have his shot, you know?

 

[Zarky]

A "neg" is a statement or action one would make to briefly disqualify oneself from being considered a potential suitor.

Exactly. A neg is ANYTHING that makes her believe you're not trying to hit on her, basically. It can be anything. It can be a roll of the eyes, it can be yelling at her in the car, it can be turning your back, it can be telling her that her fake nails "still look nice I guess."

What it can't be is flirting or playful teasing, or anything where she would be able to pick up that you are actually interested.

What most guys who haven't dated young women fail to understand is that your neg has to be harsher and harsher the younger the woman is, because only in that way does she understand that you're not hitting on her.

I got an 18 year old interested in me years ago when I met her at a party. We wound up talking and she asked about my work. I said, "You don't want to hear about my work." She said, "Sure I do." I said, "Well I don't want to talk about it." After that she left but tried to make eye-contact with me the rest of the party. I ignored her. Ended up banging her a couple of weeks later.

Those interactions were negs. I made it clear I wasn't hitting on her in a somewhat rude way.

Again: A neg is any action or statement that makes her believe you're not hitting on her. Anyone who defines it more narrowly doesn't know what he's talking about. And that includes all the usual losers who can't help but comment on every post I make

 

[Lexington]

I wonder why that is? Over there of course, there is all the annoying "fanboy" stuff you have to wade through. But they're not so negative as so many guys are here. I guess it's probably part of the RSD philosophy, you're not allowed to be negative. If you're being negative, you're being a chode.

RSD is more focused on giving practical advice on how to get laid. I do agree there's a lot of fanboy stuff too but hey, irrational optimism gets your further than rational defeatism.

Improve yourself.

PUAs promote this

Hit the gym

PUAs promote this

dress well

PUAs promote this

get your finances in order, get on the right career track

A) lots of folks don't have their finances in order and still get high quality tail.

B) A lot of folks e.g. college students, graduate students won't have their finances in order for a long time even if they're in a good career track.

C) In the world of cold approach, having your finances in order won't necessarily help you get laid unless you're rocking a $4k Armani suit and buying expensive bottle service. Every other Tom, **** and Harry has his finances together.

have things you are passionate about, go practice being social. When I was trying to overcome my shyness, I took every opportunity to socialize so I could practice.

I don't know of any PUA that doesn't promote getting out there and practicing or having things you are passionate about.

I remember a few skeevy PUA types trying to hit on a girl I was with, I always thought that was very disrespectful. And that is something PUAs encourage. I still think it's disrespectful to try to pick up up a girl when she's with some other dude. Let the guy have his shot, you know?

I don't hit on girls who are clearly in a relationship with dudes. But there are lots of girls surrounded by Beta orbiters and "friends" at clubs. These guys will try to c0ckblock you, but disregarding them is the first sh*t test in many cases.

 

[zekko]

PUAs promote this

PUAs promote just about everything under the sun at some time or other. I think they call it embracing paradoxical concepts, or something like that. But anyway, what is your point? Are you trying to sell me on being a PUA or something?

lots of folks don't have their finances in order and still get high quality tail

I believe I said earlier in the thread you didn't have to have money to get women.

Anyway, when I was talking about finance and career, I was talking more about self improvement than picking up women. But I don't think money will hurt you with women, even though PUA gurus say it will. For one thing, you can at least afford to dress well. Also, if you don't have money, how are you going to pay for those $3000 bootcamps?

I don't hit on girls who are clearly in a relationship with dudes. But there are lots of girls surrounded by Beta orbiters and "friends" at clubs. These guys will try to c0ckblock you, but disregarding them is the first sh*t test in many cases.

Well, orbiters are one thing. But even if a guy is just out on a date (maybe not in a relationship), I think it's a little rude for a PUA to come up and interrupt it. Like I said, let the guy have his shot, yeah? But any guy who would take his date to a club probably deserves what's coming to him.

 

[potato]

Can you expound on the concept of "charm"?

Charm is using ones looks and personality in an attractive way. The way it works in reality is that whenever I go out I’m dressed and groomed quite nicely. In social settings I never come onto women but in the course of the day or evening I’ll find myself in the company of one, two, three, or more women. The initial communication with these women tends to be little smiles, winks, nods, maybe even a little wave. They almost always initiate things.

An ex-girlfriend of mine used to complain that I was just like a cute girl who just smiles and all the guys fall for her, except that I did it with women. She had jealousy issues.

Except you probably DID use PUA tactics without knowing it. Pickup artistry is the study of what attracts women and employing that knowledge to pickup women. Do you honestly believe that in the entire repertoire of PUA tactics, nothing works?

Unless you're really good looking, of high status etc. chances are you had to use some form of Game to attract women. In fact just about every man uses some form of Game i.e. a set of tactics to appeal to the opposite sex.

I can honestly say I’ve never used PUA type tactics and I think that many would backfire. For instance the NEG. Typically when I encounter an interested woman she is getting some kind of enjoyment out of my company. To throw a neg at her would throw the whole vibe out of whack.

I get the idea that much of the PUA repertoire is designed to make the guy appear more disarming as the more disarming a guy tends to be the more comfortable a woman feels around him. It seems that I can achieve the same end just with my looks and a smile.

This contradicts my observations. Go to any club with a lot of hot girls. You'll see lots of guys running PUA material. Some of them suck at it. Some of them are decent. And some of them fvcking kill it and score top notch pvssy.

Once I was hanging out with some friends at a particular venue. There was this new chick, Sandy. (Not her real name.) In short order, it seemed every guy in the place was hitting on her PUA style. She was hot and reveled in the attention that she was getting. I barely looked at her and never spoke to her at all. A couple of weeks later I was at the same place and Sandy came in. This time when men started approaching her she shunned them aside and came right up to me extending her hand as if to shake saying, “Hello Potato, I’m Sandy”. It didn’t take long and a whole lot more was shaking than just our hands.

Have you seen some of the women Mystery has landed?

I’ve only seen a few. In one video that I saw, the girl was having serious doubts – a girl that I wouldn’t have given a second glance.

 

[potato]

…The bottom line is that it's easy to say "haha those stupid PUAs." But at least they've put themselves in the public eye and put forth specifics on how to attract women. That's more than can be said for anyone here…

…Well then, enlighten us why don't you? Tell us how you charm the pants off of women so that we can critique your methods which are apparently so much better than what the PUAs have to offer.

It is hard to say when it all started but at least by time I graduated from high school the idea was fixed in me that to get any girl that I wanted I had to be attractive to every woman. As thus at every decision in my life it played a role.

I have been athletic for as long as I’ve been able to run and throw a ball. In the course of growing up I often thought how I might want to develop. To me, the big bulky guys weren’t that attractive to women so when the other guys were bulking up, I did endurance training. I developed into quick and agile. In HS the linemen in football were twice my size, but not one could catch me once I got into the open. So I came to see the value in standing out, being different. One of the differences is that rather than working at being tough or whatever, I worked at being nice, at being pleasant and polite, cheerful and charming. I’ve always made sure that my clothing fit me well and was fashionable, that my hair was clean and combed, my teeth straight and white, my body lean and fit with the muscle tone of a mountain lion. I also worked on my language, the way I spoke, and have read widely so that I am well informed and always have something worthwhile to say. Being an artist I’ve long been aware that people of limited mental ability tend to look rather ugly because of the way they contort their faces when they try to do things. Knowing this I’ve pushed it the other way for myself – standing in front of the mirror figuring ways that I can make myself even more attractive which turns out to best be accomplished by attitude.

Thus I have made myself into the type of man that most women find irresistible. I put myself out in public every chance I get and women respond. Everywhere I go, everything I do there are women who smile and treat me better than others and all it takes is me walking in the room with a smile on my face.

Compared to PUAs, I’ve never seen one get several women going at once from the same action, as I have and not once in the PUA literature have I read anything to do about those squirming women with crushes that just won’t leave you alone.

 

[Lexington]

PUAs promote just about everything under the sun at some time or other. I think they call it embracing paradoxical concepts, or something like that. But anyway, what is your point? Are you trying to sell me on being a PUA or something?

The point is that people say they don't use PUA material when in fact they do. I am quite certain that you use PUA material and even most "naturals" use PUA material.

I believe I said earlier in the thread you didn't have to have money to get women.

It seemed that the money part was given a specific tip as part of picking up women.

[qupte]But I don't think money will hurt you with women, even though PUA gurus say it will.[/quote]

Straw man argument. Most PUAs might say you don't need money but most of them don't say that money hurts.

Most of the RSD dudes talk about how they are trying to make money. Most of them say that their goals in life are some combination of women, money and fitness.

Well, orbiters are one thing. But even if a guy is just out on a date (maybe not in a relationship), I think it's a little rude for a PUA to come up and interrupt it.

Dudes are going to hit on your girl if she's reasonably attractive whether they are "PUAs" or not. That's just a part of life that we all have to deal with.

Like I said, let the guy have his shot, yeah?

If a guy can come along and steal your girl, you probably wouldn't have kept her for very long anyway.

 

[Lexington]

Charm is using ones looks and personality in an attractive way. The way it works in reality is that whenever I go out I’m dressed and groomed quite nicely. In social settings I never come onto women but in the course of the day or evening I’ll find myself in the company of one, two, three, or more women. The initial communication with these women tends to be little smiles, winks, nods, maybe even a little wave. They almost always initiate things.

You're a little older. I'm not sure you go out to clubs or bars that cater to the younger crowd. Unless you're extremely good looking or clearly quite rich, it's rare for girls at clubs to approach you. The clubs are designed to cater to them plus there are many attractive guys in the venue. Why would a hot 21-22 year old girl have any motivation to approach you when there are dudes hitting on her left and right? And I'm not just talking "PUA" types either.

The demand for top end 18-25 year old pvssy is far exceeded by the supply.

I can honestly say I’ve never used PUA type tactics and I think that many would backfire. For instance the NEG. Typically when I encounter an interested woman she is getting some kind of enjoyment out of my company. To throw a neg at her would throw the whole vibe out of whack.

Have you ever used strong eye contact? Have you ever used a clear, resonant voice when talking to women? Have you ever used masculine body language? These are all "PUA type tactics" as well. Sure things like negs and peacocking may be controversial but they are just 2 items in a large toolkit.

I get the idea that much of the PUA repertoire is designed to make the guy appear more disarming as the more disarming a guy tends to be the more comfortable a woman feels around him.

More disarming? It depends. For example, one tactic I've seen used is to walk up to a hot girl and diss her in a joking way. I wouldn't call that "disarming." You are just focusing in on a few controversial tactics and making it sound like that is the entire PUA repertoire.

It seems that I can achieve the same end just with my looks and a smile.

I have no idea how good looking you are. Maybe you're very good looking to the point that the really hot girls just flock to you. But for 95% of dudes this is simply not the case. Even most really good looking guys have to put in work because there is always going to be competition for very hot women.

For the vast majority of guys, you're going to have to do approaches, get rejected and do something to get a hot girl's attention. Why would she come and talk to you when there are plenty of good looking guys in the club?

Once I was hanging out with some friends at a particular venue. There was this new chick, Sandy. (Not her real name.) In short order, it seemed every guy in the place was hitting on her PUA style. She was hot and reveled in the attention that she was getting. I barely looked at her and never spoke to her at all. A couple of weeks later I was at the same place and Sandy came in. This time when men started approaching her she shunned them aside and came right up to me extending her hand as if to shake saying, “Hello Potato, I’m Sandy”. It didn’t take long and a whole lot more was shaking than just our hands.

Again, just because someone is doing something "PUA style" doesn't mean they are good at it. As I said earlier, you might be in that 95th or higher percentile when it comes to looks. I agree that for those folks, Game is mostly irrelevant. But for the vast majority of men, going to a bar and just standing around and ignoring women will get you absolutely nothing.

Go out to any nice bar or club and you'll find many guys just standing there. And not all of them are bad looking. In fact many of them are well dressed and good looking. Most of them will not take a girl home that night.

I’ve only seen a few. In one video that I saw, the girl was having serious doubts – a girl that I wouldn’t have given a second glance.

Rejection happens to everyone. Even girls who are substantially less attractive than you can reject you. Mystery is a guy who has made a lot of money from picking up women. He's gained a small amount of fame and even got himself a TV show. If he was a complete fraud, I doubt this could have happened.

There are videos of Mystery landing some pretty hot girls. It's possible that these pickups are mostly fake. But then, it's also possible that everyone on these forums is a liar. After all, we're all just posting anonymously to an internet forum.

The bottom line is that I would bet money that Mystery would have better success picking up women at any given bar or club than 99% of the guys on these forums.

 

[Mike32ct]

Mystery is 6'5" (an elite height) with a full head of hair and a lean body. Add in his bad boy sort of goth look.

I'm still waiting for a really ugly guru to teach us pickup.

I have some respect for Tyler because he's very average looking.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Mystery is 6'5" (an elite height) with a full head of hair and a lean body. Add in his bad boy sort of goth look.

I'm still waiting for a really ugly guru to teach us pickup.

Or an older one, say over 35. Also from what I can tell from pics Mystery also has a pretty symmetrical face and a good smile so he's probably above average looking to women.

The bottom line is you can only pick up women if your appearance is good enough looking. Just about any one or two things below average in your appearance can disqualify you from being able to pick up, even if you have several other things average or above, like height, lean etc.

If your appearance isn't good enough then you'll rarely to never pick up no matter what you do. If your appearance is good, then you will pick up despite whether or not you negged, C+F and tactic xyz. I believe most of the PUA tactics are red herrings.

 

[Mike32ct]

Or an older one, say over 35. Also from what I can tell from pics Mystery also has a pretty symmetrical face and a good smile so he's probably above average looking to women.

Yes, he has a pretty well defined jaw line.

The bottom line is you can only pick up women if your appearance is good enough looking. Just about any one or two things below average in your appearance can disqualify you from being able to pick up, even if you have several other things average or above, like height, lean etc.

If your appearance isn't good enough then you'll rarely to never pick up no matter what you do. If your appearance is good, then you will pick up despite whether or not you negged, C+F and tactic xyz. I believe most of the PUA tactics are red herrings.

Yup.

I know a guy that got much worse after getting into the PUA fad. He was 6'4" with an amazing body, yet he was creeping girls out with things like the "dental floss opener" lol.

Once he dropped that stuff, just stood there alone at the bar, did NOTHING, and said nothing, he had HB9s hitting on him left and right.

 

[zekko]

I am quite certain that you use PUA material and even most "naturals" use PUA material.

Of course I use some PUA material. I read this forum, don't I? I don't buy into all of the advice here, but some of it is very good.

As for naturals, I wouldn't say that naturals use PUA material, I'd say PUAs use naturals' material. Isn't that where PUA material comes from to begin with, they try to reverse engineer what works in real life?

Straw man argument. Most PUAs might say you don't need money but most of them don't say that money hurts.

It's not a straw man at all. Many gurus (including Tyler) say that if a girl knows you have money, or if they consider you a "good catch", they may be less likely to put out for you. Because they will try to make you think they are good girls by making you wait for sex.

Whether that's true or not, even if money did hurt you with women, I'd still rather have the money over the women. It's no surprise guys on RSD want to make money. Most of us do, right?

If a guy can come along and steal your girl, you probably wouldn't have kept her for very long anyway.

True enough, but again I'm not really talking about relationships. Maybe just a guy taking a girl out on a date. I think it's rude for the PUA to interject himself into that situation, he's practically being a c0ckblocker. First off, he may try to AMOG the guy. Secondly, he's raising the girl's value by hitting on her. And third, again, it's just rude.

I don't necessarily have anything against PUAs though (as long as they don't try to cross me). I just don't aspire to be one myself. Again, I read that this is not a PUA site all the time. Guys here want to be "DJs" supposedly.

What about you, Lex? Out of curiousity, do you consider yourself to be a pickup artist? Is that part of your self image? I could see maybe you and Brad80, and a few others, as possibly being legit PUAs.

I know a guy that got much worse after getting into the PUA fad. He was 6'4" with an amazing body, yet he was creeping girls out with things like the "dental floss opener" lol.

Once he dropped that stuff, just stood there alone at the bar, did NOTHING, and said nothing, he had HB9s hitting on him left and right.

Lol, I can certainly see that happening. Lex would probably tell you that he isn't running the PUA material well, and maybe he would be right. But in the case of this guy, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I personally believe there are all sorts of possible ways to go about charming a woman. They don't all involve delivering a line over your shoulder.

 

[Mike32ct]

Of course I use some PUA material. I read this forum, don't I? I don't buy into all of the advice here, but some of it is very good.

As for naturals, I wouldn't say that naturals use PUA material, I'd say PUAs use naturals' material. Isn't that where PUA material comes from to begin with, they try to reverse engineer what works in real life?

Exactly. I think the original idea was to learn from the naturals.

It's not a straw man at all. Many gurus (including Tyler) say that if a girl knows you have money, or if they consider you a "good catch", they may be less likely to put out for you. Because they will try to make you think they are good girls by making you wait for sex.

Whether that's true or not, even if money did hurt you with women, I'd still rather have the money over the women. It's no surprise guys on RSD want to make money. Most of us do, right?

Yes. While sometimes a chick MIGHT make a guy with money wait, it's VERY disingenuous for PUAs to pull this card. It's just a sneaky way to suggest that "having money can be a disadvantage so you're better off without it" LOL. Meanwhile, there are plenty of rich guys that pull.

There is an analogous PUA argument they make about looks sometimes. "You're better off not being good looking because you come in under the radar. Guys who are hot look like players" LOL.


True enough, but again I'm not really talking about relationships. Maybe just a guy taking a girl out on a date. I think it's rude for the PUA to interject himself into that situation, he's practically being a c0ckblocker. First off, he may try to AMOG the guy. Secondly, he's raising the girl's value by hitting on her. And third, again, it's just rude.

Yeah hitting on some guy's date is ridiculous.

I don't necessarily have anything against PUAs though (as long as they don't try to cross me). I just don't aspire to be one myself. Again, I read that this is not a PUA site all the time. Guys here want to be "DJs" supposedly.



What about you, Lex? Out of curiousity, do you consider yourself to be a pickup artist? Is that part of your self image? I could see maybe you and Brad80, and a few others, as possibly being legit PUAs.


Lol, I can certainly see that happening. Lex would probably tell you that he isn't running the PUA material well, and maybe he would be right. But in the case of this guy, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I personally believe there are all sorts of possible ways to go about charming a woman. They don't all involve delivering a line over your shoulder.

That's the thing. Game, to the extent it even exists, is NOT some precise combination lock that only has one combination. Guys have gotten laid doing and/or saying anything and everything imaginable.

I love pickup and the game in general. I'm just not a fan of commercial gurus.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Yup.

I know a guy that got much worse after getting into the PUA fad. He was 6'4" with an amazing body, yet he was creeping girls out with things like the "dental floss opener" lol.

Once he dropped that stuff, just stood there alone at the bar, did NOTHING, and said nothing, he had HB9s hitting on him left and right.

Yes, this is what I'm saying. Is there really proof that stuff like the neg has a net positive outcome and not a neutral or even net negative outcome? In my experience it seems to be net negative and guys stop using them because it doesn't work.

How could it be proven? You approach a 100 girls, half of them with a neg and half without. I haven't noticed a difference that was positive. There's so many other variables. How can you make any conclusion based upon a word choice tactic. It's like gambler's fallacy. You discard your losses but remember your wins.

People can't even agree on what a neg is or isn't in the first place. let alone one done "right" vs "wrong". Oh you been getting mostly negative responses? You didn't do it right, it's because you didn't do xyz, and should've done abc. No one can really isolate the effect of it. But you can notice trends, and in my experience stuff like negs don't help.

Oh yeah Mike, I tried to PM you the other night but your mailbox was full .