I don't get PUA's

[disgustipated]

I don't think its necessarily changing who you are by becoming a jerk to get laid. It's sites like these that has helped me realise, with personal reflection, that we as guys have been sold a bag of lies that tell us nice guys get the girls, and consequently we stifle that NATURAL aggressive abrasive jerk side of ourselves. It's been drilled into us that that side of us equals not getting laid. So for me I've learned to not stifle that side of me so much anymore, give the girl a healthy dose of man. Now when you go above qnd beyond what is natural per your personality for jerkiness, that's when I think you're in the compromising personality area.

 

[Atom Smasher]

The neg, in its pure form, is designed to confuse a woman who has already displayed a superior attitude toward you. In other words, it is used after she "draws first blood". It is never to by used in an opening situation as the dynamics of the interaction have not yet been established.

The neg is supposed to be mysterious, and have at least two possible interpretations ("Is he kidding? Is he serious?"). In essence, it is designed to convey to the woman, "I'm not all that impressed by you, and certainly not intimidated by you".

The neg is always something that is earned by a woman who has esteemed herself higher than you. It's designed to start to get her dancing to your tune, and to differentiate you from all the others who wouldn't in a million years say such a thing to her.

It's shouldn't be an insult, but rather a statement, again, always presented with a slight, unaffected grin, that can be interpreted 2 different ways.

Regarding the "jerk" argument, I think by now it has been established that the "jerk" possesses many qualities that are a turn-off to women and that we ourselves would never want to become, but who nonetheless do display one of two qualities that come naturally to them and that would benefit us to incorporate. Confidence, indifference, the ability to say "no", things like this are usually found in the jerk, usually amplified to a self-defeating level, but valuable to us if emulated in a calibrated fashion.

The jerk just "IS".., he is unthinking and his personality is unbridled. Even so, I think of the jerk as an ugly apple tree that has a lot of bad apples on it, yet there are a few low-hanging branches with perfectly good, healthy apples that are mine for the picking. I pick the good fruit, polish them off with my shirt, and eat the healthy fruit as I walk away from the tree.

This ugly tree has served me, fed me, and I have no ties to the tree other than that I found a small amount of healthy nourishment which I took and cleaned up before eating.

 

[cordoncordon]

1. What BB said was an insult, to both the child and the mom. Really bad. But he realized that and apologized and so all is good.

2. What he said to her was not PUA material. It was something that the majority of guys on this site though would say though....and think it is PUA material, because I see it every day on this site. Guys as of late are becoming more and more jerkish, they have more hate for women, and basically just want to use women for nothing more than an open orifice. They are going from one extreme to another. From a afc pushover who has been abused by women their entire lives to complete azzholes who want to 'get back' at women for all of the abuse they have taken over the years, whether real or imagined.

3. In general, I believe that the entire PUA movement/market/industry is just a money making scam used by a few to prey on a mans weakness.....trying to get laid no matter what. They go after the weak, the physically unattractive, the shy, the nerdy, the forever aloners. Why? Because these guys want to get laid just like everyone else but have reached a point where they are so desperate that they will gladly pay money in search of that holy grail. I don't believe many of these PUA's selling their services are doing it to really help a guy out. They just want to make a buck.

 

[Jaylan]

OP, you insulted the kid. Bad neg attempt lol. Id react the same way if a chick pulled that with me (if I had a child)

 

[Atom Smasher]

bb already said he knows it was an insult and that he had an off moment.

I can't quite liken that to "pickup" style negs though. Two different things. One is a mistake, as bb described, while a true neg is designed to disarm a self-defined princess.

 

[Lexington]

3. In general, I believe that the entire PUA movement/market/industry is just a money making scam used by a few to prey on a mans weakness.....trying to get laid no matter what. They go after the weak, the physically unattractive, the shy, the nerdy, the forever aloners. Why? Because these guys want to get laid just like everyone else but have reached a point where they are so desperate that they will gladly pay money in search of that holy grail. I don't believe many of these PUA's selling their services are doing it to really help a guy out. They just want to make a buck.

Doctors make money to treat patients. Car mechanics get paid to fix your car. College professors and school teachers receive compensation for the education they provide. Yes a lot of the PUA gurus make money off of what they teach, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of what they teach is effective. A lot of the "PUA movement" stuff is free. Take these forums for example, it doesn't cost you a dime to sign up. There's plenty of free material on the internet.

A lot of the PUA movement is just a bunch of guys comparing notes about what works and what doesn't when it comes to getting laid. The only way to know for sure is to test the material out for yourself. I for one can attest that most of the commonly accepted PUA concepts (e.g. projecting confidence, good body language, strong eye contact, kino, escalation, negs, brushing off rejection etc.) have worked pretty well for me.

 

[backbreaker]

1. I really should not have used the word PUA in my title. I'm ****ty with words at times and this in reality was geared towards the entire schema that only jerks / bad boys get laid. IN saying that some equate jerks with alpha males. PUA **** isn't my thing but that's more so because of my personality I don't have time to randomly pick up and screw girls that i have no interest in at all long term wise I'm too busy a dude for that but I'm quite sure if i used it for it's intended method it'd work to do what it is supposed to do. This is really a non starter to me and the PUA **** is not the avenue that i wanted to take this conversation down

2. IMHO, even though this is not a pick up obviously, I think this is in reality, more how a real pick up or a real interaction with a girl happens. not necessarily calling her daughter ugly, which i never did and the girl has talked to me after the incident with no issue it's done. But in the sense that, pick ups don't' always go as you plan them go to. you aren't always smooth, you aren't always on point. you are sometimes off. I was off.

What i am getting at is, say i was single and i wanted to talk to this chick now. how does one go from what happened last week to moving past that / moving forward?

what i would personally do if i were actually interested in her is just to pretend it never happened and give her a few weeks, then re engage.

 

[Stagger Lee]

I've never seen negs work as explained and advertised or accomplishing any real results unless the female was already attracted to you based on your appearance anyway.

And even if negs did anything furthering your cause, which I haven't seen it, the way it is explained doesn't seem correct. Sometimes just not saying certain things is all the "neg" you need, eg, not complementing the girl. And if a girl is putting on airs or a superiority just ignoring it and appearing unconcerned and not intimidated is sufficient.

Anyway, I just think the whole neg/jerk theory is kind of bogus, poorly/erroneously explained, and I couldn't find any proof that it works in the real world. Of course I think most PUA theory is BS. I come from the school of thought that attraction is primarily visual and based on appearance, and what you say and don't say within reason makes little difference.

Don't get me wrong. Women do peg a guy "good guy" or "bad boy" based quite a bit on words and behavior (mostly if he doesn't make a move soon enough when he has the opening/opportunity). But that's a whole other debate. But PUA sells negs, C+F, being a jerk etc as "attraction" creators and I think that is BS.

 

[backbreaker]

I've never seen negs work as explained and advertised or accomplishing any real results unless the female was already attracted to you based on your appearance anyway.

i don't usually do negs. The cloest thing I have ever done to a real life neg, and i wasn't even trying to is i told this chick i knew threw a friend at a party that she looked like cyndi lauper. you know the chick from the dr pepper commercials?

****, i thought it was a compliment she's kinda cute in a quirky way. i didn't realize she was like 60 lol. i thought i was being nice and the girl the entire night was like all self conscious and **** and she really was cute.

 

[Lexington]

People "neg" each other all the time. Chances are you neg your friends, your coworkers, your family all the time. That's really all there is to it. A neg should result in a girl laughing and maybe playfully punching you in the arm or something of that nature. Obviously, you're not going to get into a girl's pants by insulting her.

As for whether PUA stuff works or not, all I can say is that ever since I started using it, I've been getting laid a lot more than before. Would these girls have been attracted anyway? I suppose it's possible.

I guess the only really scientific way to know would be to get a randomized sample of males, teach one group PUA material and let the other group just be themselves. Then we'd have to see if there was a statistically significant difference in the rate of lays of the PUA group compared to the control group.

I would bet that the group learning PUA material would score more than the control group. I think it would make an interesting sociology/psychology research paper....

 

[Atom Smasher]

LOL, I love the accidental negs. I've popped a few myself every now & then.

Negs have worked very well for me but truly most guys don't get the subtlety required. A neg should have the feel "He must be teasing". If it about her appearance, it must be worded EXTREMELY vaguely having at least one perfectly acceptable interpretation that wouldn't be considered an insult.

I've found that rare is the man who can really nuance the neg to his advantage. Most guys tend to take it too far or express it too bluntly or seriously.

I've also found that another aspect to nuancing the neg is to immediately start talking about something else, never missing a beat nor pausing on it. If one does it right it can put her right in the palm of your hand.

I think that the pua community defines certain principles like the neg, CF, etc. in order that we might fully grasp them, but it's up to us to carve the bluntness of these principles off and fit them to the real world and our own personalities.

 

[zekko]

I recall Mystery saying that he used negs to "disqualify himself as a suitor". When opening, he would make some mildly dismissing remark to her, or toward her. This would make her think he wasn't hitting on her, so her shields would be down, so he could come in under the radar, and have some time to charm her. That seems a lot different than other uses of the word that I've seen, where it's basically used to take her down a peg.

As for PUA methods, I do think there is a lot of good information. But at the same time a lot of it is a scam, and I think the industry lends itself to being a scam.

But I think a group of PUA trained guys would do better in a contest than guys off the street. I don't know that their methods would be any better necessarily. But so many guys buy into the PUA stuff and think it works, therefore their confidence is going to be way up because of it, and they're going to go in to the girl with a more positive attitude because they think they know the secret.

 

[zekko]

Most of my negs during my years before PUA were just natural. One of my best was "I'm never getting married".

Subtle. The girls who are just looking to have a little fun will like that one because they know you won't try to rush them into a relationship. Girls who are looking to fool around on their boyfriends would also appreciate that since they know you won't try to complicate their lives. Even girls who want a relationship will be suspicious of a guy who is too eager to get into one with them - guys who fall too quickly are usually dismissed.

I've used the "you're not that fat" with great success as well.

Lol, I like that one.

 

[Atom Smasher]

With women, negs are often not about what you say, but what you don't say.

That's an excellent point. In my world of music, I often tell other musicians that a great player knows how to play notes but he also knows how to play the silence in-between the notes. The same principle applies here. Let the "listener" fill in the blanks herself, and you will accomplish the effect you are looking for.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Most of my negs during my years before PUA were just natural. One of my best was "I'm never getting married". I had girls tell me after sex that they went for me simply because of this statement. It disarmed them and they felt I was a challenge.

I've used the "you're not that fat" with great success as well.

With women, negs are often not about what you say, but what you don't say.

These aren't bad examples, but they're not really neg tactics as explained in PUA. The thing is something like "I'm never getting married" is not so much a neg, but as zekko pointed out indirectly stating you're just playing the field and not needy. It's a little bit teasing and communication several other subtle things but not really negging her.

But here's the thing, even if we agreed that "you're not that fat" was a neg and possibly worked more often than not for one guy, I can quarantee if a random group of guys used that neg on a random group of women it would work against them as often or more than it helped.

The neg is absolutely meaningless/worthless without the context of how it was said, when it was said, and most importantly whether there was already attraction from the girl based upon your appearance. Leave alone the fact it's nearly impossible to prove using the neg was really responsible for furthering anything vs not using the neg. How can it be knowable whether the neg(s) made any real difference? I've closed plenty of girls just fine without using one neg. So it's certainly not something that is required.

Like you said it's more about what you don't say, than what you do say. You don't compliment the girl, for example. That's often all the "neg" you need.

To tell you the truth, in my experience negging usually just makes the pick up go less smoothly and slowly. It's like taking on step back, then having to slightly recover. There's a dozen things and factors going on but guys just assume the neg was somehow key when in reality it may have worked against them as much as anything. There's no way to really know or prove otherwise.

 

[Stagger Lee]

These are good points. I should clarify on the "you're not that fat". It should only be said in context, not teasing and just as an off-hand comment.

Example:



It doesn't have to be exactly like this, but this sort of concept where you make a statement meant to be a compliment, but she hears the back-handed insult. You move away quickly so she can't throw her indignation at you.

I accidentally did a variation of this when a girl had shoved me playfully, I then shoved her back and she nearly fell out of her chair! I then said "Oops, you're not as heavy as I thought" and then went to take my turn at bowling. She did end up coming on to me pretty hard about 2 months later.


As far as the marriage comment. It's a subtle neg and I should clarify that as well. I say in the context that my standards are too high. It is subtle because I indirectly communicate that not even she with her glorious gold puss is worth my time.

Yes I think those are valid examples and I do use stuff similarly like that often and to rarely negative results. But I look at as being a challenge, indirect or maybe teasing.

But the way PUA often explains negging is all wrong IMO. The whole spiel about neg the attractive girl and this causes "attraction" is all baloney. But being a little bit of a challenge, being a little unclear about your interests in her, and even teasing ONCE you have initial attraction is valid and good I believe.

I guess another way of putting it is to not compliment/validate the girl too too soon or show your interest and intentions too soon. Better to just pitch the close. I look at as more of lacking validating her rather than dis-validating.

 

[Lexington]

To tell you the truth, in my experience negging usually just makes the pick up go less smoothly and slowly. It's like taking on step back, then having to slightly recover. There's a dozen things and factors going on but guys just assume the neg was somehow key when in reality it may have worked against them as much as anything. There's no way to really know or prove otherwise.

This could be said about anything. I'm sure you could close some very attractive girls by complimenting them.

Ultimately there are certain patterns of behavior that can help/enhance your chances of scoring with any particular woman. All you can do is see what patterns are associated with good vs bad outcomes.

Negs, C+F, projecting confidence, inner game, dress sense, working out etc. are tools at your disposal to accomplish the task of getting laid. See what works and what doesn't.

In my personal experience, the use of negs has been associated with good outcomes. Based on my readings, this seems to be a fairly common experience with a lot of people on the internet.

Is it possible that we're all lying? It is. But then, this is the internet and people can lie about anything. I personally think that negging seems to be a fairly widely accepted technique for a reason.

Does it work all the time? Of course not. Can you screw it up really bad? Definitely. But hey if it works for you, keep it as part of your playbook.

 

[Stagger Lee]

The only pattern I ever saw with negs is mostly counter productive. The only pattern that I ever seen increasing the chances of scoring on average was neither negs nor compliments but a neutral approach. Being neutral is all the neg I ever found that was needed. I don't believe negs do anything on average.

 

[Lexington]

The only pattern I ever saw with negs is mostly counter productive. The only pattern that I ever seen increasing the chances of scoring on average was neither negs nor compliments but a neutral approach. Being neutral is all the neg I ever found that was needed. I don't believe negs do anything on average.

Well then we must have some conflicting data. Of course, you have to tailor your playbook to your personality. Not every offense can effectively run the zone read option, but some offenses can do it to devastating effect.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Well then we must have some conflicting data. Of course, you have to tailor your playbook to your personality. Not every offense can effectively run the zone read option, but some offenses can do it to devastating effect.

If the neg supposedly works sometimes and for some and not for others, so does just about anything else. The neg makes no real difference in itself. It makes no difference in my experience whether I neg a girl or not. Either the girl is attracted from the start or not, and that determines whether nothing works or just about everything works.