Feel the butterflies and approach!

[GoodMan32]

well duh, obviously, for all-time, only applies to men, the male gender only, if you don't open your mouth, you won't get them. Bringing this up because, i'm in contact with one guy, he told he never had a girlfriend until his early 30s, and i asked him how he feels about that, he says "i'm not proud of it, but it is what it is, and i'm sure if i had been born a woman, i would not have been single that long".

Well-said.

Many a woman would shoot back with "Being a woman isn't all peaches and cream. We get a lot of unwanted attention."

Which is a totally an insensitive comment on the woman's part. That's like a billionaire complaining to a working class man "I have more money than I know what to do with; it sucks"

 

[H8CourtshipWithAPassion]

Well-said.

Many a woman would shoot back with "Being a woman isn't all peaches and cream. We get a lot of unwanted attention."

Which is a totally an insensitive comment on the woman's part. That's like a billionaire complaining to a working class man "I have more money than I know what to do with; it sucks"

Yes, being born a woman, even if those women are not instagram models or supermodels, OF models, even average plain looking women, are guaranteed far more options and attention than even GQ-looking model men are. Women naturally by default are always in abundance of options.

 

[GoodMan32]

Yes, being born a woman, even if those women are not instagram models or supermodels, OF models, even average plain looking women, are guaranteed far more options and attention than even GQ-looking model men are. Women naturally by default are always in abundance of options.

One time a female coworker complained that a man groped her backside at a night club. I told her I'd be glad if a woman groped by backside, even if I wasn't attracted to the woman, because it would be a compliment to me.

 

[Manure Spherian]

I don't pedestal women. I have no anxiety about talking with women, regardless of 'hotness', because I don't elevate their desirability, nor do I feel competition from other men. When I talk with someone, I have no expectations. If I notice indicators of romantic interest and I feel attraction within myself to make that emotional connection, I will steer the conversation towards intimacy. If she doesn't respond positively and eagerly, I won't pursue (I'm not interested in 'lukewarm' connections), as I'm not desperate for sex / intimacy.

Apart from that, I almost committed suicide when I was sixteen because I put too much value in other people's opinion, and when I aborted my suicide attempt, I stopped giving an airborne copulation about anybody's opinion but my own. I modified that somewhat later in life to only value the opinions I actively sought out, but still IDGAF about what other people might think of me.

And while I don't meet many people like me, I know I'm not that special. So there are other people with a similar 'sang froid' who are not anxious when approaching strangers. The sole exception is when I'm facing violent people, but combat wariness is not the same as the approach anxiety you feel when you walk up to a woman.

And I don't believe in Alpha/Beta either.

I developed a similar attitude. If there is an event I’m interested in attending, and the timing or lack of interest with my wife, kids, and friends doesn’t work, I go alone. If I want to talk to people, I do so, and sometimes people start talking to me. That’s because even though I can be chatty and animated while in conversations about topics I’m interested in, I’m otherwise relaxed and confident in who I am. At 40 something years old, I know my limitations and strengths and have people who care about and love me. So I’m fine if some people don’t like me.

I think some here need to just freaking relax, stop overanalyzing, and stop living in their own heads.

Just this past Friday I went to an event in Manhattan by myself. I’ve gone to the beach, concerts, art shows, and other places myself. I think if I had no friends, no close family ties, and never had a woman, going places alone might weigh on me. But these connections serve as support and a buffer. I think some men are so hurt by rejection because they don’t have such connections and that creates much stress in their lives.

BTW, I never attempted, but I suffered from suicidal ideation for years, on and off, in my teens and early 20s.

 

[ManFromTartarus]

I can appreciate OP's post as I am going thru a phase myself at this time.

Health issues (back problems) took me out of the game lately and although I'm on the rebound somewhat, the months of isolated down time & recovery have left me a little introverted. I even feel I missed out on an opportunity the other day just because I didn't have the urge to break the ice with a lady showing a subtle IOI.

I find it funny how just a few months of isolation can take me out of my game so much, but I admit it does, on the other hand I know once I break the shell of initial shyness I can talk to anybody.

But I can indentify with OP & his experience learning when your own shyness hits you in the face, and makes you realize you have to readjust cause it's holding you back.

 

[GoodMan32]

This is pretty much exactly why women get a creepy vibe from you, when you try to legitimise groping as a 'compliment'.

This is seriously the one and only instance where I ever recall telling a woman that a grope is a compliment.

A one time isolated incident wouldn't explain a larger chronic pattern.

 

[H8CourtshipWithAPassion]

One time a female coworker complained that a man groped her backside at a night club. I told her I'd be glad if a woman groped by backside, even if I wasn't attracted to the woman, because it would be a compliment to me.

i saw this on twitter from a guy, men, who gives seduction advice to men:

"A lot of women, or just many women, cannot understand how someone(a guy, man, human male) cannot be desired or doesn't have any dating options, or has never dated or never been with a woman before by a certain age, unless something is seriously wrong with them. They(women) get desired and wanted, sought after, by default have dating options, always have choices, opportunities, just for existing and being a normal person, so they assume that's how it is for men, but it's not., women who think that way are completely delusional"

never truer words have been said or spoken.

 

[Isildur1]

.

If a man is not having success with the women he wants, then the only way to fix this is with self-improvement. This is not something easy to sell because what you are selling can not be taken as a pill... it takes a lot of work and effort... and a man will need patience and sweat. For companies it's the same fvckign thing... if they cannot get customers, then they are selling the wrong fvcking product... so they need to restructure their business to sell what people want.... if you are selling what people want and need, then sales are easy.

depends - sometimes persistence can go a long way - in daygame it was 6 months before I got my first actual lay but then the a few stunners quickly followed - sometimes it just takes one good success that can be the springboard for more-

getting from 0 to 1 daygame lay is a hell of a lot harder to go from 1-10

at 0 you can doubt if this stuff works ( it does but it requires good volume) and talking to strangers especially in large cities you need conversation skills and to be somewhat adaptable to conversation and dating with different cultures and different women - that can be a tough learning curve psychologically for anyone - for me it was difficult at the beginning but once I got some decent wingmen everything because more efficient

self improvement helps but unless the confidence is there to approach consistently without excuses then its going to be tough to get results long term. A lot of men use self improvement as an excuse to just not approach outright- it then becomes another form of procrastination in my book.

 

[GoodMan32]

The chronic pattern is explained by the 'one time isolated' incident.

You think that women who get groped should consider themselves lucky, or you wouldn't have made that ridiculous 'take the groping as a compliment' remark. Maybe you verbalised this remark to a woman only once, but this is not an isolated thought. You seriously think a woman who was touched inappropriately has nothing to complain about, because you would welcome any physical contact.

And the worst thing is that you're so oblivious of your own misogyny that you don't see why women don't stick around.

I never said the woman should count herself lucky. All I told her was I'd count myself lucky if I got groped.

On a purely platonic level, I'd estimate more female coworkers than male coworkers have gravitated toward me at my current job (which I've been at for 5 years). I'm not the chick-repeller you're making me out to be.

 

[GoodMan32]

i saw this on twitter from a guy, men, who gives seduction advice to men:

"A lot of women, or just many women, cannot understand how someone(a guy, man, human male) cannot be desired or doesn't have any dating options, or has never dated or never been with a woman before by a certain age, unless something is seriously wrong with them. They(women) get desired and wanted, sought after, by default have dating options, always have choices, opportunities, just for existing and being a normal person, so they assume that's how it is for men, but it's not., women who think that way are completely delusional"

never truer words have been said or spoken.

True words indeed.

On a related note, many a woman will tell us "Just ask the woman you're interested in out. If you get a rejection, big whoop. Rejection is a totally natural part of life."

Here's the thing though: For a woman, rejection isn't a totally natural part of life. A woman could sit back and do nothing, yet still get propositioned for dates/sex. A woman could make it her whole life without ever asking anyone out/getting rejected. And if a woman were to get rejected, she'd go absolutely ape$hit.

In other words, broads tell us to do something (and get over something) they'll likely never have to do (and wouldn't handle well if they were to do it)

 

[RangerMIke]

depends - sometimes persistence can go a long way - in daygame it was 6 months before I got my first actual lay but then the a few stunners quickly followed - sometimes it just takes one good success that can be the springboard for more-

getting from 0 to 1 daygame lay is a hell of a lot harder to go from 1-10

at 0 you can doubt if this stuff works ( it does but it requires good volume) and talking to strangers especially in large cities you need conversation skills and to be somewhat adaptable to conversation and dating with different cultures and different women - that can be a tough learning curve psychologically for anyone - for me it was difficult at the beginning but once I got some decent wingmen everything because more efficient

self improvement helps but unless the confidence is there to approach consistently without excuses then its going to be tough to get results long term. A lot of men use self improvement as an excuse to just not approach outright- it then becomes another form of procrastination in my book.

Okay... how is this different from self-improvement? You got better, because you practiced... this is NOT rocketing science. You gain self-confidence from PRACTICE... practice is self-improvement.

 

[H8CourtshipWithAPassion]

True words indeed.

On a related note, many a woman will tell us "Just ask the woman you're interested in out. If you get a rejection, big whoop. Rejection is a totally natural part of life."

Here's the thing though: For a woman, rejection isn't a totally natural part of life. A woman could sit back and do nothing, yet still get propositioned for dates/sex. A woman could make it her whole life without ever asking anyone out/getting rejected. And if a woman were to get rejected, she'd go absolutely ape$hit.

In other words, broads tell us to do something (and get over something) they'll likely never have to do (and wouldn't handle well if they were to do it)

yup, everything simply just comes to women, thats a luxury they have always had and always will, in many ways, women are the spoiled gender

 

[Vending Machine Veteran]

There really is no reason to fear an approach. No matter what happens... it's all good. She likes you and allows you to take her out: she shoots you down... now you know are can just move on.

The only reason anyone would be afraid of anything is over-thinking and being dependent on an outcome. If you really don't care what happens then there is no fear. All negative emotions are derived from expectation not met.

My buddy asked me if I had sales experience.

I don't lol, but I was raised on sosuave. I know how to sell

I've been harping lately on how much experience makes. It really changes the game

So you have that to look forward to, lurking posters

If you get out and get it. You have to try

 

[SW15]

My buddy asked me if I had sales experience.

Sales and dating are not fully analogous but there's some overlap.

Working as a sales rep can help men in the early stages of dating. Being a cold approacher seeking vagina can likely help in many sales rep jobs, though it's not necessary. Advantages that men might have had in sales are disappearing as more and more men are becoming reliant on apps and DMs for getting pussie.

Many sales jobs are performed by women. There have been comments on another thread recently about how a lot of pharmaceutical sales reps are female. Residential real estate agents are more likely to be female than male.

Health issues (back problems) took me out of the game lately and although I'm on the rebound somewhat, the months of isolated down time & recovery have left me a little introverted. I even feel I missed out on an opportunity the other day just because I didn't have the urge to break the ice with a lady showing a subtle IOI.

I find it funny how just a few months of isolation can take me out of my game so much, but I admit it does, on the other hand I know once I break the shell of initial shyness I can talk to anybody.

You bring up an important point for older men in the seduction community. As men age, health issues can take them out of regular approaching. Men who exercise regularly tend to encounter some sort of orthopedic problems around middle age (ages 35-54). Hip, knee, and back issues are common. For unattached, middle aged men, dealing with orthopedic problems while also needing to prospect for women is not pleasant at all.

Tech based dating doesn't solve for this problem. While it is possible to open women via DM or on a swipe app while dealing with a significant orthopedic problem, that orthopedic problem will often emerge early on in the in-person process.

Men who aren't in shape are often passed over for looks and might also be dealing with cardiac problems in middle age and beyond. That's also a bad place in dating.

 

[Vending Machine Veteran]

Sales and dating are not fully analogous but there's some overlap.

Working as a sales rep can help men in the early stages of dating. Being a cold approacher seeking vagina can likely help in many sales rep jobs, though it's not necessary. Advantages that men might have had in sales are disappearing as more and more men are becoming reliant on apps and DMs for getting pussie.

Many sales jobs are performed by women. There have been comments on another thread recently about how a lot of pharmaceutical sales reps are female. Residential real estate agents are more likely to be female than male.



You bring up an important point for older men in the seduction community. As men age, health issues can take them out of regular approaching. Men who exercise regularly tend to encounter some sort of orthopedic problems around middle age (ages 35-54). Hip, knee, and back issues are common. For unattached, middle aged men, dealing with orthopedic problems while also needing to prospect for women is not pleasant at all.

Tech based dating doesn't solve for this problem. While it is possible to open women via DM or on a swipe app while dealing with a significant orthopedic problem, that orthopedic problem will often emerge early on in the in-person process.

Men who aren't in shape are often passed over for looks and might also be dealing with cardiac problems in middle age and beyond. That's also a bad place in dating.

Outcome independence is what we're searching for.

The ability to give zero clucks, regardless

And that is a mind frame that will see you through life

 

[ManFromTartarus]

Sales and dating are not fully analogous but there's some overlap.

Working as a sales rep can help men in the early stages of dating. Being a cold approacher seeking vagina can likely help in many sales rep jobs, though it's not necessary. Advantages that men might have had in sales are disappearing as more and more men are becoming reliant on apps and DMs for getting pussie.

Many sales jobs are performed by women. There have been comments on another thread recently about how a lot of pharmaceutical sales reps are female. Residential real estate agents are more likely to be female than male.



You bring up an important point for older men in the seduction community. As men age, health issues can take them out of regular approaching. Men who exercise regularly tend to encounter some sort of orthopedic problems around middle age (ages 35-54). Hip, knee, and back issues are common. For unattached, middle aged men, dealing with orthopedic problems while also needing to prospect for women is not pleasant at all.

Tech based dating doesn't solve for this problem. While it is possible to open women via DM or on a swipe app while dealing with a significant orthopedic problem, that orthopedic problem will often emerge early on in the in-person process.

Men who aren't in shape are often passed over for looks and might also be dealing with cardiac problems in middle age and beyond. That's also a bad place in dating.

You're pretty spot on there.
I've been active most of my life and it has kept me in better shape than most my age, but that, along with some car accidents, and arthritis, it's taken it's toll on my body. So yea, it's been challenging.

... and tech dating is even worse for me, as some of my arthritis is typing & computer related. That's why I don't post that much here, and mainly read the forum & archives.

I do OK IRL & cold approach once I get past the initial shyness stage after being offline socially for periods like this, but I can't deny that I'm in a rut right now, and I'm not 100% back physically.

 

[SW15]

I've been active most of my life and it has kept me in better shape than most my age, but that, along with some car accidents, and arthritis, it's taken it's toll on my body. So yea, it's been challenging.

Many older members of the seduction community are having a somewhat similar experience. Aging does reduce the incentive to want to go out and do approaches. Some middle aged + men end up in relationships (often mediocre at best ones) because of this. They are tired of continuously prospecting at a certain point.

To some degree, I think Neil Strauss in his 40s was an example of this when he got married to Ingrid De L O. As expected, the marriage failed. Neil Strauss is now 55. At 55, Strauss' health isn't what it was 20-30 years ago.

A thread I started in 2022 directly dealt with this topic. It's not only the big name pickup artists who have had these issues. Many of the anonymous, smaller time followers have also had similar issues arise.

Why Have So Many Well Known Pickup Artists Had Major Personal Issues?

Tom Torero: Has a scandal surrounding non-consensual recordings. Dies unexpectedly. Family confirms his death was a suicide. Roosh: Sister dies of breast cancer. Leads to emotional breakdown. Has a religious conversion and condemns pickup, seduction, and all non-marital sex. Neil Strauss: Was...

www.sosuave.net

 

[corrector]

Aging does reduce the incentive to want to go out and do approaches.

It has nothing to do with age. It has to do with IOIs.

 

[SW15]

It has nothing to do with age.

Not true at all. If a middle aged or older man has hip/knee/back problems, he's going to have physical problems walking around malls, walking out on streets, or spending time on urban walking paths/in parks looking for approach options. Many middle aged or older men have orthopedic issues. A good portion of these middle aged or older men are married and aren't needed to find new women. Divorced or never married older men can often be dealing with orthopedic problems while needing to find new prospects. This is something more common than it was a few decades ago.

The same orthopedic problems can affect participation in night game, but are lesser factors into why older guys are not enthusiastic about night game. The bigger factors for older guys in night game are late nights/getting sleep and noise levels. I'd say it is common for a lot of men to burn out on nightlife venue approaching by late 20s/early 30s, which is usually before the onset of orthopedic issues.

It has to do with IOIs.

IOIs are an issue as well.

The whole IOI environment has changed since everyone got a smartphone in their pocket and/or started using earbuds. Smartphones/earbuds have reduced the number of IOIs that men receive.

I noticed that by the early 2010s (my late 20s), I was receiving fewer IOIs than in the mid-2000s (my early 20s). The main change in those years was the gain in popularity of smartphones and earbuds.

In roughly my sophomore (2002-2003) or junior (2003-2004) years of college, the majority of females at my college gym did not use headphones/earbuds with an iPod (introduced 2001) or other MP3 playing device. In the 2002-2004 time period, only the absolute hottest women at that college gym were using headphones/earbuds to discourage approaches on the general gym floor. By the early 2010s, I noticed in my big city gym with mainly a 20s/30s post college crowd that the majority of women were using headphones/earbuds in the gym. That's a trend that has continued into the 2020s. It's very difficult to receive IOIs from women in the gym with headphones/earbuds. Only the absolute top tier men have a chance to break through headphones/earbuds and possibly receive an IOI. This is why the general gym floor is not a good place for approaching.

Headphones/earbuds have also made outdoor walking/hiking path and park approaching more challenging.

In nightlife venues, women are spending more time looking down at their phones than being present in the moment. That affects their ability to give IOIs too.

Millennial and Gen Z women have lost social skills to some degree since smartphones and earbuds have gotten popular.

The changes in the IOI environment are affecting both younger and middle aged men.

 

[corrector]

Not true at all. If a middle aged or older man has hip/knee/back problems, he's going to have physical problems walking around malls, walking out on streets, or spending time on urban walking paths/in parks looking for approach options. Many middle aged or older men have orthopedic issues. A good portion of these middle aged or older men are married and aren't needed to find new women. Divorced or never married older men can often be dealing with orthopedic problems while needing to find new prospects. This is something more common than it was a few decades ago.

The same orthopedic problems can affect participation in night game, but are lesser factors into why older guys are not enthusiastic about night game. The bigger factors for older guys in night game are late nights/getting sleep and noise levels. I'd say it is common for a lot of men to burn out on nightlife venue approaching by late 20s/early 30s, which is usually before the onset of orthopedic issues.

I don't know...it's sounds like you are describing an 80 year old guy, not a middle aged guy, lol.

It's more likely what you said before, the smartphones, dating apps, social media, has made it generally discouraging to approach. That bleeds into middle aged guys more than younger guys because it doesn't bode well to tackle something that's way more challenging and difficult to do THAN when you were youthful (not to mention lower SMV on looks due to age related issues compared to younger, making it even more difficult) whereas young people don't have much of a memory of better times when it was also challenging for them.