Feel the butterflies and approach!

[GoodMan32]

It depends on how you actually do cold calling. I agree, most companies do not know how to do this... just like most men do not know how to do cold approach. A company that does a sh1t job of cold calling appear to be poorly run: men who do a sh1t job of cold approach appear to be of poor quality.

The purpose of a cold, well anything, is to gauge interest and see if who is being approached is open to what you have, if it's a man, then it's if the woman is interested and attracted to what he has: if you are a company selling goods or services... is the potential client in a market for what you are selling.

The purpose of a cold approach (cold call) is to see if the woman in interested and available, get her number or make a date (or if you are a company, set up and in person meeting so the salesman can make a pitch. It's really the same thing, nut different scale.

There is a reason why company salesmen do a statistically better with women, because they understand the process. They know you have to get through all the 'nos' to get to a yes... and much of this is about timing. You can not control the 'timing' all you can do is find the ones where the timing is right.

I also agree that getting rejected too much fvcks with your head... all you can do is inoculate yourself from the negative emotional aspects of rejection... you do this with exposure... this is where practice and self-improvement will help you. If it keeps happening, then self-improvement is the only way to minimize this, the only other reason why someone might be rejected is that they are approaching the wrong women... so again, a little introspection with your selection process and the ability to read social and emotional signals will help.

If a man is not having success with the women he wants, then the only way to fix this is with self-improvement. This is not something easy to sell because what you are selling can not be taken as a pill... it takes a lot of work and effort... and a man will need patience and sweat. For companies it's the same fvckign thing... if they cannot get customers, then they are selling the wrong fvcking product... so they need to restructure their business to sell what people want.... if you are selling what people want and need, then sales are easy.

I've heard the analogy before that asking a woman out is like sales (you might get a lot of rejections before you get a yeah).

I've worked in sales before. In my opinion, comparing sales to asking a woman out is a terrible analogy. When a customer turned down a sales pitch, it wasn't miserable for me to then run into that customer the next time they came into the store.

On the other hand, when rejected by a woman, I find it miserable to cross paths with her post-rejection.

A sales rejection is nothing personal. A romantic/sexual rejection is personal.

Circling back to sales, you're 100% right when you say if you're unable to get customers, you're selling a terrible product that hardly anyone wants. When I was in sales, our boss would force us to push products/services we knew were a scam. Yet he wondered why not enough customers would fall for our sales pitch (That company is currently holding on by a thread. No surprise)

 

[corrector]

I've heard the analogy before that asking a woman out is like sales (you might get a lot of rejections before you get a yeah).

I've worked in sales before. In my opinion, comparing sales to asking a woman out is a terrible analogy. When a customer turned down a sales pitch, it wasn't miserable for me to then run into that customer the next time they came into the store.

On the other hand, when rejected by a woman, I find it miserable to cross paths with her post-rejection.

A sales rejection is nothing personal. A romantic/sexual rejection is personal.

Circling back to sales, you're 100% right when you say if you're unable to get customers, you're selling a terrible product that hardly anyone wants. When I was in sales, our boss would force us to push products/services we knew were a scam. Yet he wondered why not enough customers would fall for our sales pitch (That company is currently holding on by a thread. No surprise)

Exactly. You could end up with a social break-down. However, with some business interactions, where there are higher stakes, lets say Real-Estate, where you could earn a large commission, or end up broke, it does rub off in a way similar or even worst than a romantic rejection. You then blame your poverty on a betrayal of a client that choose another agent to close the deal rather than working with you despite all of the effort and time you wasted. You cant get more personal than that. Anything that involves a betrayal, is still terrible.

This is one reason why I have a sales job where the client can not see my face or video impression. The business is completely over the phone. That way, I can't blame my looks on a sales going bad as they can just hear my voice and either they trust what I'm offering or not.
It's also low stakes. You will make sales so it doesn't matter if you get a day where you make no sales, as you might make 5 sales the next day.

Two different sales scenarios, one is extremely personal, the other is impersonal.

 

[GoodMan32]

Exactly. You could end up with a social break-down. However, with some business interactions, where there are higher stakes, lets say Real-Estate, where you could earn a large commission, or end up broke, it does rub off in a way similar or even worst than a romantic rejection. You then blame your poverty on a betrayal of a client that choose another agent to close the deal rather than working with you despite all of the effort and time you wasted. You cant get more personal than that. Anything that involves a betrayal, is still terrible.

This is one reason why I have a sales job where the client can not see my face or video impression. The business is completely over the phone. That way, I can't blame my looks on a sales going bad as they can just hear my voice and either they trust what I'm offering or not.
It's also low stakes. You will make sales so it doesn't matter if you get a day where you make no sales, as you might make 5 sales the next day.

Two different sales scenarios, one is extremely personal, the other is impersonal.

Yeah, I suppose sales jobs vary.

I was never in a job where my income (or my performance review) was based solely on sales (I worked in stores where most transactions were simply a customer coming to ring out with purchases they chose to make all on their own. But there were opportunities where we could convince a customer to make a special high dollar purchase, as well as opportunities to push add-ons/services).

I was a decent salesman for products customers actually wanted/needed. I remember making a several hundred dollar furniture sale (and even a furniture sale of over a thousand dollars once)

I suppose a job like real estate where your career is 100% reliant upon sales gives you higher stakes. If I were in real estate, I'd certainly be upset if lack of sales ended up putting my job on the line. But that's still not the same type of upset/idiot feeling I get when turned down by a woman I thought was into me.

 

[Bokanovsky]

Not everybody is the same, Mike. Just because you cannot do what others can doesn't make them liars. Some of us are more 'sang froid' than others.

And then there are those who "put on a brave face" and give themselves the "I am outcome independent" pep talk in an effort to reduce anxiety. Kind of like a fighter who trash talks his opponent before a fight in an effort to big himself up.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

And then there are those who "put on a brave face" and give themselves the "I am outcome independent" pep talk in an effort to reduce anxiety. Kind of like a fighter who trash talks his opponent before a fight in an effort to big himself up.

Still, there is a distinct difference between Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson when it came to trash talking, but both knew how to verbally anger their opponent before the match. There is a psychological aspect to the 'trashing'.

 

[Bokanovsky]

Still, there is a distinct difference between Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson when it came to trash talking. And I think both knew how to verbally anger their opponent before the match. There is a psychological aspect to the 'trashing'.

Both of those men were riddled with anxiety. Now it may be that they managed to harness their anxiety to improve performance but you can't tell me that Ali and Tyson were outcome independent or had an IDGAF attitude. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

Both of those men were riddled with anxiety. Now it may be that they managed to harness their anxiety to improve performance but you can't tell me that Ali and Tyson were outcome independent or had an IDGAF attitude. Quite the opposite, actually.

No, but they were not just 'making themselves big', like guys flashing their Rolex. The trash talking was also to piss off their opponent so they would lose their 'sang froid'.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

I think a large part of the anxiety is the build-up in the insecure mind. Making the molehill into a mountain.

With regards to not having approach anxiety and being outcome independent:
I'm trying to live life without expectations. I've been in situations I shouldn't have survived, but strangely I'm still here. So I lost so much common fears and anxieties that having a pleasant conversation with an attractive women doesn't unnerve me.
I don't project my lust on women - I have enough sex, I don't need more. My past makes me wary and reserved, where some women are intrigued by my aloofness. My attention and validation doesn't come cheap and certainly not for free. I have high standards that are mostly invisible on the outside.
That's why my conversations with women are outcome independent. Outward beauty is a bonus, but nothing more than an attractive wrapping. If the woman inside proves not to be a gift, I don't want her.

Your reality may be different, but that doesn't make mine 'impossible'.

 

[H8CourtshipWithAPassion]

Doesn't matter if it's an attractive woman you've never talked to before or an attractive woman you might have had a brief interaction(s) with.

Feel the fear and just do it!

Remember, shyness is a feminine passive trait and a natural repellent to the majority of women.

Women can get away with being shy since it can be seen as a feminine quality and attractive, but not men.

If your gut is telling you to go talk to that woman, but you have butterflies, just do it! Better to try and possibly be awkward then to not try
at all.

In regard to this, I am only referring to attractive women whom your gut tells you that she might also be attracted to you (e.g. that woman across the bar or that female patron online at Starbucks, etc.....who gave you an IOI)

I am NOT talking about a female(s) who act like you don't exist.

Regardless of the outcome, you will be proud of yourself for doing so.

An experience I had today prompted me to post this.

well duh, obviously, for all-time, only applies to men, the male gender only, if you don't open your mouth, you won't get them. Bringing this up because, i'm in contact with one guy, he told he never had a girlfriend until his early 30s, and i asked him how he feels about that, he says "i'm not proud of it, but it is what it is, and i'm sure if i had been born a woman, i would not have been single that long".

 

[GoodMan32]

well duh, obviously, for all-time, only applies to men, the male gender only, if you don't open your mouth, you won't get them. Bringing this up because, i'm in contact with one guy, he told he never had a girlfriend until his early 30s, and i asked him how he feels about that, he says "i'm not proud of it, but it is what it is, and i'm sure if i had been born a woman, i would not have been single that long".

Well-said.

Many a woman would shoot back with "Being a woman isn't all peaches and cream. We get a lot of unwanted attention."

Which is a totally an insensitive comment on the woman's part. That's like a billionaire complaining to a working class man "I have more money than I know what to do with; it sucks"

 

[H8CourtshipWithAPassion]

Well-said.

Many a woman would shoot back with "Being a woman isn't all peaches and cream. We get a lot of unwanted attention."

Which is a totally an insensitive comment on the woman's part. That's like a billionaire complaining to a working class man "I have more money than I know what to do with; it sucks"

Yes, being born a woman, even if those women are not instagram models or supermodels, OF models, even average plain looking women, are guaranteed far more options and attention than even GQ-looking model men are. Women naturally by default are always in abundance of options.

 

[GoodMan32]

Yes, being born a woman, even if those women are not instagram models or supermodels, OF models, even average plain looking women, are guaranteed far more options and attention than even GQ-looking model men are. Women naturally by default are always in abundance of options.

One time a female coworker complained that a man groped her backside at a night club. I told her I'd be glad if a woman groped by backside, even if I wasn't attracted to the woman, because it would be a compliment to me.

 

[Manure Spherian]

I don't pedestal women. I have no anxiety about talking with women, regardless of 'hotness', because I don't elevate their desirability, nor do I feel competition from other men. When I talk with someone, I have no expectations. If I notice indicators of romantic interest and I feel attraction within myself to make that emotional connection, I will steer the conversation towards intimacy. If she doesn't respond positively and eagerly, I won't pursue (I'm not interested in 'lukewarm' connections), as I'm not desperate for sex / intimacy.

Apart from that, I almost committed suicide when I was sixteen because I put too much value in other people's opinion, and when I aborted my suicide attempt, I stopped giving an airborne copulation about anybody's opinion but my own. I modified that somewhat later in life to only value the opinions I actively sought out, but still IDGAF about what other people might think of me.

And while I don't meet many people like me, I know I'm not that special. So there are other people with a similar 'sang froid' who are not anxious when approaching strangers. The sole exception is when I'm facing violent people, but combat wariness is not the same as the approach anxiety you feel when you walk up to a woman.

And I don't believe in Alpha/Beta either.

I developed a similar attitude. If there is an event I’m interested in attending, and the timing or lack of interest with my wife, kids, and friends doesn’t work, I go alone. If I want to talk to people, I do so, and sometimes people start talking to me. That’s because even though I can be chatty and animated while in conversations about topics I’m interested in, I’m otherwise relaxed and confident in who I am. At 40 something years old, I know my limitations and strengths and have people who care about and love me. So I’m fine if some people don’t like me.

I think some here need to just freaking relax, stop overanalyzing, and stop living in their own heads.

Just this past Friday I went to an event in Manhattan by myself. I’ve gone to the beach, concerts, art shows, and other places myself. I think if I had no friends, no close family ties, and never had a woman, going places alone might weigh on me. But these connections serve as support and a buffer. I think some men are so hurt by rejection because they don’t have such connections and that creates much stress in their lives.

BTW, I never attempted, but I suffered from suicidal ideation for years, on and off, in my teens and early 20s.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

One time a female coworker complained that a man groped her backside at a night club. I told her I'd be glad if a woman groped by backside, even if I wasn't attracted to the woman, because it would be a compliment to me.

This is pretty much exactly why women get a creepy vibe from you, when you try to legitimise groping as a 'compliment'.

 

[ManFromTartarus]

I can appreciate OP's post as I am going thru a phase myself at this time.

Health issues (back problems) took me out of the game lately and although I'm on the rebound somewhat, the months of isolated down time & recovery have left me a little introverted. I even feel I missed out on an opportunity the other day just because I didn't have the urge to break the ice with a lady showing a subtle IOI.

I find it funny how just a few months of isolation can take me out of my game so much, but I admit it does, on the other hand I know once I break the shell of initial shyness I can talk to anybody.

But I can indentify with OP & his experience learning when your own shyness hits you in the face, and makes you realize you have to readjust cause it's holding you back.

 

[GoodMan32]

This is pretty much exactly why women get a creepy vibe from you, when you try to legitimise groping as a 'compliment'.

This is seriously the one and only instance where I ever recall telling a woman that a grope is a compliment.

A one time isolated incident wouldn't explain a larger chronic pattern.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

This is seriously the one and only instance where I ever recall telling a woman that a grope is a compliment.
A one time isolated incident wouldn't explain a larger chronic pattern.

The chronic pattern is explained by the 'one time isolated' incident.

You think that women who get groped should consider themselves lucky, or you wouldn't have made that ridiculous 'take the groping as a compliment' remark. Maybe you verbalised this remark to a woman only once, but this is not an isolated thought. You seriously think a woman who was touched inappropriately has nothing to complain about, because you would welcome any physical contact.

And the worst thing is that you're so oblivious of your own misogyny that you don't see why women don't stick around.

 

[H8CourtshipWithAPassion]

One time a female coworker complained that a man groped her backside at a night club. I told her I'd be glad if a woman groped by backside, even if I wasn't attracted to the woman, because it would be a compliment to me.

i saw this on twitter from a guy, men, who gives seduction advice to men:

"A lot of women, or just many women, cannot understand how someone(a guy, man, human male) cannot be desired or doesn't have any dating options, or has never dated or never been with a woman before by a certain age, unless something is seriously wrong with them. They(women) get desired and wanted, sought after, by default have dating options, always have choices, opportunities, just for existing and being a normal person, so they assume that's how it is for men, but it's not., women who think that way are completely delusional"

never truer words have been said or spoken.

 

[Isildur1]

.

If a man is not having success with the women he wants, then the only way to fix this is with self-improvement. This is not something easy to sell because what you are selling can not be taken as a pill... it takes a lot of work and effort... and a man will need patience and sweat. For companies it's the same fvckign thing... if they cannot get customers, then they are selling the wrong fvcking product... so they need to restructure their business to sell what people want.... if you are selling what people want and need, then sales are easy.

depends - sometimes persistence can go a long way - in daygame it was 6 months before I got my first actual lay but then the a few stunners quickly followed - sometimes it just takes one good success that can be the springboard for more-

getting from 0 to 1 daygame lay is a hell of a lot harder to go from 1-10

at 0 you can doubt if this stuff works ( it does but it requires good volume) and talking to strangers especially in large cities you need conversation skills and to be somewhat adaptable to conversation and dating with different cultures and different women - that can be a tough learning curve psychologically for anyone - for me it was difficult at the beginning but once I got some decent wingmen everything because more efficient

self improvement helps but unless the confidence is there to approach consistently without excuses then its going to be tough to get results long term. A lot of men use self improvement as an excuse to just not approach outright- it then becomes another form of procrastination in my book.

 

[GoodMan32]

The chronic pattern is explained by the 'one time isolated' incident.

You think that women who get groped should consider themselves lucky, or you wouldn't have made that ridiculous 'take the groping as a compliment' remark. Maybe you verbalised this remark to a woman only once, but this is not an isolated thought. You seriously think a woman who was touched inappropriately has nothing to complain about, because you would welcome any physical contact.

And the worst thing is that you're so oblivious of your own misogyny that you don't see why women don't stick around.

I never said the woman should count herself lucky. All I told her was I'd count myself lucky if I got groped.

On a purely platonic level, I'd estimate more female coworkers than male coworkers have gravitated toward me at my current job (which I've been at for 5 years). I'm not the chick-repeller you're making me out to be.