Do You Have to Be Good Looking to Attract Women?
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To answer the question in the thread title, it depends entirely on the type of girl you're looking to get.
Are you looking for a quick lay with an attractive slut or girl rebounding from an ex-boyfriend? If so, then you don't have to be anything more than well-dressed, friendly, not fat, and well-groomed. These girls are like male players; they'll have sex with anybody. When they fall in love, though, it's typically only with men as attractive as they perceive themselves to be. Or it's because they realized they're getting too old to be a slut
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To get in a relationship with a desperate/needy (aka mentally unstable) attractive girl you also only need to be well-groomed, friendly, not fat, stable, and not fat. Attractive is an understatement with these girls, you can date a girl that looks like a model if you're willing to put up with the psychological damage her mental disorders are going to cause you. These girls might have BPD/HPD, bipolar, depression, or schizophrenia. A lot of these chicks are obviously insane. A great deal of them will also avoid dating classically attractive men because they know these men are not going to put up with their bullshit because they have access to stable hot chicks. It should also be noted that this is the girl that is going to use sex as a means to an end (i.e. to help you tolerate her breakdowns) rather than something she just does because she wants to be close with her lover.
Do either of the above women actually fall in love with you as an average guy? Absolutely not with the slut and not really with the mentally unstable girl. Are you getting used? Definitely. Some guys can handle getting used for sex or talk therapy/companionship better than others. I know I'm looking for something more.
This is my experience with attractive women as an average guy. Note that I've only been with 6 attractive women and I've only been getting laid for a year. I've asked out scores of attractive girls. I'm no Paul Janka in terms of approach volume, but I think within this year, I've been rejected over the phone for a date by at least 25 girls. I've probably been rejected within an approach hundreds of times now (ex. "Ummm...I have to go to the bathroom", "my boyfriend doesn't allow me to give out my number", the girl makes a face like she's repulsed by me, the girl doesn't have flirty non-verbals, etc). I can now sense rejections non-verbally before they even have to be verbalized. Trust me, when a girl wants you, she will stop at almost nothing to have you, it is so easy. 90% of the time, the attractive girls that wind up having sex with me fall neatly under either the slut or mentally unstable girl categories.
So yes, if you want to be in love with a beautiful woman, you typically have to be classically handsome.
If you'd like to talk about the effect of money, women do not fall in love with money. They'll probably marry a rich guy, but do they still lust after some lean, chisel faced man? Absolutely. Will they have sex with them behind your back? If the woman would leave if you didn't have a ton of money, then yeah, she's probably ****ing around behind your back. It's called cuckoldry and it happens all the time. Marriage may not be about looks but the human sex drive certainly is.
Give me all the PUA drivel you want, but who would you rather have join you in an MMF threesome with your girlfriend? A male model with a perfectly chiseled jaw line or an average PUA guy with lots of money and confidence? They both have the same size penis as you do.
If you're an average guy, it all depends on how much you want to get used.
Perhaps my perspective will change when I meet the right girl. However, if the same approach (confident and direct) works on both mentally stable and mentally unstable girls where the only difference is physical attractiveness, then game doesn't matter as much as you guys claim it does.
Often the mentally stable girls that have rejected me haven't been quite as hot as the sluts or mentally unstable girls I've banged; no girl I've even met on my college campus was as attractive as my mentally unstable ex-girlfriend (110lbs, 5'7", face of a model, and legs that went on forever). Her personality, though, is so atrociously insecure, depressed, anxious, and abrasive that I rejected her the one time she made a sexual advance since we broke up. She hugged me and wrapped her legs around me (that girl loved to get ****ed against a wall just like that), and all the dudes that were hitting on her at that party were like "woahhh, this guy is getting laid tonight" because she is such a god damn prude with most dudes. The ego boost that I got from dating that girl was great, dudes would think I was some kind of hero for having a girl like that hanging off of my every word. The sex was pretty damn good. Was it worth all of her threats of suicide or personal insults? Absolutely not.
Are you looking for a quick lay with an attractive slut or girl rebounding from an ex-boyfriend? If so, then you don't have to be anything more than well-dressed, friendly, not fat, and well-groomed. These girls are like male players; they'll have sex with anybody. When they fall in love, though, it's typically only with men as attractive as they perceive themselves to be. Or it's because they realized they're getting too old to be a slut
.To get in a relationship with a desperate/needy (aka mentally unstable) attractive girl you also only need to be well-groomed, friendly, not fat, stable, and not fat. Attractive is an understatement with these girls, you can date a girl that looks like a model if you're willing to put up with the psychological damage her mental disorders are going to cause you. These girls might have BPD/HPD, bipolar, depression, or schizophrenia. A lot of these chicks are obviously insane. A great deal of them will also avoid dating classically attractive men because they know these men are not going to put up with their bullshit because they have access to stable hot chicks. It should also be noted that this is the girl that is going to use sex as a means to an end (i.e. to help you tolerate her breakdowns) rather than something she just does because she wants to be close with her lover.
Do either of the above women actually fall in love with you as an average guy? Absolutely not with the slut and not really with the mentally unstable girl. Are you getting used? Definitely. Some guys can handle getting used for sex or talk therapy/companionship better than others. I know I'm looking for something more.
This is my experience with attractive women as an average guy. Note that I've only been with 6 attractive women and I've only been getting laid for a year. I've asked out scores of attractive girls. I'm no Paul Janka in terms of approach volume, but I think within this year, I've been rejected over the phone for a date by at least 25 girls. I've probably been rejected within an approach hundreds of times now (ex. "Ummm...I have to go to the bathroom", "my boyfriend doesn't allow me to give out my number", the girl makes a face like she's repulsed by me, the girl doesn't have flirty non-verbals, etc). I can now sense rejections non-verbally before they even have to be verbalized. Trust me, when a girl wants you, she will stop at almost nothing to have you, it is so easy. 90% of the time, the attractive girls that wind up having sex with me fall neatly under either the slut or mentally unstable girl categories.
So yes, if you want to be in love with a beautiful woman, you typically have to be classically handsome.
If you'd like to talk about the effect of money, women do not fall in love with money. They'll probably marry a rich guy, but do they still lust after some lean, chisel faced man? Absolutely. Will they have sex with them behind your back? If the woman would leave if you didn't have a ton of money, then yeah, she's probably ****ing around behind your back. It's called cuckoldry and it happens all the time. Marriage may not be about looks but the human sex drive certainly is.
Give me all the PUA drivel you want, but who would you rather have join you in an MMF threesome with your girlfriend? A male model with a perfectly chiseled jaw line or an average PUA guy with lots of money and confidence? They both have the same size penis as you do.
If you're an average guy, it all depends on how much you want to get used.
Perhaps my perspective will change when I meet the right girl. However, if the same approach (confident and direct) works on both mentally stable and mentally unstable girls where the only difference is physical attractiveness, then game doesn't matter as much as you guys claim it does.
Often the mentally stable girls that have rejected me haven't been quite as hot as the sluts or mentally unstable girls I've banged; no girl I've even met on my college campus was as attractive as my mentally unstable ex-girlfriend (110lbs, 5'7", face of a model, and legs that went on forever). Her personality, though, is so atrociously insecure, depressed, anxious, and abrasive that I rejected her the one time she made a sexual advance since we broke up. She hugged me and wrapped her legs around me (that girl loved to get ****ed against a wall just like that), and all the dudes that were hitting on her at that party were like "woahhh, this guy is getting laid tonight" because she is such a god damn prude with most dudes. The ego boost that I got from dating that girl was great, dudes would think I was some kind of hero for having a girl like that hanging off of my every word. The sex was pretty damn good. Was it worth all of her threats of suicide or personal insults? Absolutely not.
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Great post blueline, in particular:
This sums up my BPD experience. Except I was the attractive man that she avoided falling in love with. She would often say she "would love to fall in love" with me, and she'd say "You've been with a lot of women - if I were to fall in love with you, wouldn't you get bored and leave me? Why would you put up with me?" I treated her like gold but she never did fall in love with me, and she did use sex as a means to an end, and she did use me, and it was difficult dealing with the psychological damage she caused, and the insults. Sounds like you might have dated the same girl.blueline said:
If you guys that are not virgins and have been in relationships could continue to confirm that my post in this thread reflects your personal experience (an example of what doesn't count: seeing some average guy with a hot chick you don't know; you have no idea what the status of their relationship is), that would be really cool. I'm not jaded, I'm just objective.
I wish somebody out there wrote a realistic book to getting laid for the average guy. I would've loved to know about the stuff I wrote about in my last post. I guess it wouldn't inspire you to go out there and get laid, but this idea that confidence/personality is all women want is totally autistic nonsense. There is no single, overall personality type that attracts women. Of course they want confidence, but confidence with women is a total joke with how easy it is to have. Did you ever take dares as a kid? Approaching girls is kind of like that. You have to shamelessly throw all your signals out there and not care if she rejects you. I was the kid that took every dare in middle and high school, so maybe that's why I don't have difficulty with it. All of this crap of routine stacks, DHV's, negs, and whatever else is all useless snake oil, too.
Neil, I got the same crap from my BPD ex, too. She totally did love me on her own BPD terms and it was pretty intense, but I don't think it was what any sane person is capable of, and I therefore do not classify it as love.
I wish somebody out there wrote a realistic book to getting laid for the average guy. I would've loved to know about the stuff I wrote about in my last post. I guess it wouldn't inspire you to go out there and get laid, but this idea that confidence/personality is all women want is totally autistic nonsense. There is no single, overall personality type that attracts women. Of course they want confidence, but confidence with women is a total joke with how easy it is to have. Did you ever take dares as a kid? Approaching girls is kind of like that. You have to shamelessly throw all your signals out there and not care if she rejects you. I was the kid that took every dare in middle and high school, so maybe that's why I don't have difficulty with it. All of this crap of routine stacks, DHV's, negs, and whatever else is all useless snake oil, too.
Neil, I got the same crap from my BPD ex, too. She totally did love me on her own BPD terms and it was pretty intense, but I don't think it was what any sane person is capable of, and I therefore do not classify it as love.
This is such a great post.TIC said:
Haha yeah, I feel like a lot of chicks won't even friend zone me based on my appearance, but I'm regularly pulling hotter sluts and damaged girls out of the woodwork than some of these chicks that refuse to friendzone me, lol. I can tell it bothers some of them.
Some girls hate me for absolutely no reason and one didn't even know how to pronounce my name correctly (it's not hard to pronounce, it's just a fairly unique name), which gives you an idea of how little we know each other. This capability of mine to incite pure hatred from girls I can accredit to nothing other than being average and simultaneously being confident/extroverted, which I guess strikes a dissonant chord in some girls. Almost everybody that's actually friends with me always describes me as a really nice, cool guy.
The even more hilarious thing is that I had sex several times with a slut that was only a little bit more attractive than I (I'm probably around a 6; this one girl was probably a 7) and she would pretend that absolutely nothing happened between us when I saw her at parties.
The only time she made it clear to people around us that we had hooked up in the past was when I was making out with a girl that was about as attractive as her at a party (this is when the slut kissed me on the face and pinched my ass as I was making out with the other girl). The other time she mentioned we had a fling was when she was trying to get with the really attractive ex-girlfriend of mine that I'm still sorta friends with and was also hanging out with my current squeeze at the time that was just about as attractive as her. Ironically, I had more of a connection with this slut than anybody I have hooked up with. It could've been a great relationship, and like a good player, she dropped me as soon as I told her that I was feeling her (same thing happened with my current squeeze at that time except that girl has ****ed 17 guys yet never been in love or in a relationship ever). I remember my friend telling me that he overheard her say "why aren't there any hot guys at this party? there's nobody here i want to ****" when we were at the same party once and I had given her some intense orgasms the morning before the party. Marginally attractive women are now able to be players at a level men of similar attractiveness can't even touch.
I fucking hate getting used. At that party, I was hanging out with the 3 hottest girls at the party in the kitchen and felt pretty damn good, but not a single one of those chicks actually loved me. They just wanted to **** me like a fat chick in the high school football locker room. Women can do that now. Either that, or use me as a therapist.
Initially, when I was landing all these hot ass slutty/damaged chicks, I figured that I had to be at least somewhat good looking, so. This meant I didn't need to work out. However, after looking at the results of 6-8 months of approaching attractive stable girls in social circle settings, there's no way in hell I am.
Working out as an average guy won't land you stable 8's or 9's, but maybe the stable 7's will bang you for more than just sex, which means you can play them.
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I've noticed this too - the fact that you are confident (regardless of your looks) inspires some women to attempt normalization of your confidence. Every time I've ever had all the girls in the room liking me, one will spontaneously hate me and will be outwardly rude to me, cutting me down to size. It perhaps should be a new thread topic on why this phenomenon seems to happen.blueline said:
It's so rare to see an average guy with even a 7 that I literally drove myself insane trying to play the lottery and get them the semester after I broke up with my ex-girlfriend. I partied hard as hell every weekend at least 2-3 nights a week. This killed my grades and each hot slut I got was like a compulsive gambler getting a set of 7's on a slot machine (rare, but intoxicating). I didn't fuck around with <7's outside of makeouts because I didn't see the point back then. On top of that, I was also doing drugs (pot, coke, vicodin, ecstasy/mdma, opium, acid, dmt, salvia, and oxy) or getting drunk every weekend because I was often being offered drugs/booze for free. I never indulged in any of those drugs (I'm sure I missed a couple) or even drinking until I started the party lifestyle. I was literally a straight A student before this and graduated college magna *** laude in a technical field. I get to retry grad school this fall and you can be sure as hell I am not chasing sluts anymore.
I'm only finally getting over this after not going out so much and subsequently not getting laid for nearly 2 months now. I like it. I'm just gonna work out and be confident with the girls that make themselves available to me. I regularly get less than attractive chicks chasing me without even lifting a finger and those are the chicks that actually want you. Perhaps working out will turn the 6's into 7's. Who knows, but if I could get that same vibe I get with the 6's that chase me with 7's (this happens all the time to attractive guys), then I'd be totally down because I can actually enjoy banging those girls.
A lot of women think almost no different regarding dating than men do now. Since they can now earn a living and raise a family on their own, they mostly care about looks. You have to be a physical notch above them to get them to fall in love with you. Love only exists when you are physically out of the girl's league. It's no surprise there is so much talk about "spinning plates" on this forum - these girls aren't going to date you anyways!
Why am I posting all of this stuff in a thread about the looks vs. game debate? Because looks are almost inextricable from game.
I'm only finally getting over this after not going out so much and subsequently not getting laid for nearly 2 months now. I like it. I'm just gonna work out and be confident with the girls that make themselves available to me. I regularly get less than attractive chicks chasing me without even lifting a finger and those are the chicks that actually want you. Perhaps working out will turn the 6's into 7's. Who knows, but if I could get that same vibe I get with the 6's that chase me with 7's (this happens all the time to attractive guys), then I'd be totally down because I can actually enjoy banging those girls.
A lot of women think almost no different regarding dating than men do now. Since they can now earn a living and raise a family on their own, they mostly care about looks. You have to be a physical notch above them to get them to fall in love with you. Love only exists when you are physically out of the girl's league. It's no surprise there is so much talk about "spinning plates" on this forum - these girls aren't going to date you anyways!
Why am I posting all of this stuff in a thread about the looks vs. game debate? Because looks are almost inextricable from game.
I don't even bother getting all the girls in the room to like me. It's take it or leave it. I'll provide pleasant light hearted conversation and actually care about you as a person, but I'm not going to go out of my way to entertain anybody. I just want to make connections, I don't want to entertain. This is how my relationships with the same sex are, too.bigneil said:
Sex and the city and pervasive feminism have definitely been detrimental for average men. You absolutely must workout now. Then again, I bet it was always like this. This image we have of the 1950's Golden Era family is probably entirely contrived, conservative nonsense. Pussy has probably always been more valuable than cock. **** either needs to be wearing a top hat to get with stable ***** (i.e. workout [be a butterface!] or earn lots of money) or needs to be better looking than the *****. Sex just wasn't as public back then and actual sluts would be shamed rather than almost celebrated. What will be different is that once these turbo sluts (I'm not talking about the girl that bangs a bunch of guys between boyfriends, but rather the one that has never had a boyfriend and has banged 20+ guys) turn around 25, they're going to find themselves in a bad situation.
I'm just accepting it as a fact and starting to work out as seriously as I used to approach girls. I've seen what happens with girlfriends as I get in better shape, they start complimenting my arms and feeling them up. It's pretty cool.
MartyMcFly
Don Juan
It actually makes sense the way some of you are putting it. Looks mean somthing, regardless. Now I'm not saying that looks are literally everything, because they're not. I'd consider myself an average looking guy with a thin athletic build. I have a way with words and I use natural charm and game to pick up girls I'm interested in. Not saying I'm 100% successful, but if I never try then who knows what I'll miss.
Its got a lot to do with confidence and the way you present yourself. I have seen women with average guys and I think... How the **** did that happen? I realized what it was when I started living my life like there was no tomorrow, no holding back, because hell, I may never see that pretty girl walking down the street again in my life, And i'm sure as hell not going to pass up an opportunity if its presented to me.
A lot of people are very negative about this subject, looks vs game. Its all minor details. Why waste your time trying to find the perfect canned lines or the best t shirt for you. Theres only one way to achieve happiness, and that means getting out there, doing what you love to do, climb a mountain, swim across the amazon, whatever gets you motivated and gives you that feeling like you're invincible, thats what you should be doing! Give a new hobby a chance, you never know who you'll run into along the way.
Its got a lot to do with confidence and the way you present yourself. I have seen women with average guys and I think... How the **** did that happen? I realized what it was when I started living my life like there was no tomorrow, no holding back, because hell, I may never see that pretty girl walking down the street again in my life, And i'm sure as hell not going to pass up an opportunity if its presented to me.
A lot of people are very negative about this subject, looks vs game. Its all minor details. Why waste your time trying to find the perfect canned lines or the best t shirt for you. Theres only one way to achieve happiness, and that means getting out there, doing what you love to do, climb a mountain, swim across the amazon, whatever gets you motivated and gives you that feeling like you're invincible, thats what you should be doing! Give a new hobby a chance, you never know who you'll run into along the way.
initiatorhater06
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and I wonder why women don't pursue or chase men, or just welcome men's advances despite that they have healthy genes
I've noticed I do this too. Sometimes I'll be the level headed one (like a moderator) or take the opposing views, whichever the situation requires. It's weird observing this happen.bigneil said:
I'm sure there's a psychological effect at play when enough people gather.
Vice
Master Don Juan
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Maybe she's testing/challenging you to see if you're the real deal.
Anyway, I consider myself to be very good looking, but most people think I'm gay. What the f*ck? I don't have ANY female mannerisms, my voice is deep, and my method of communication is clearly masculine. Apparently in the US being cultured and well dressed makes you a fag.
I think it's just my area: alot of girls here are whales, and also have little awareness of the brands that most shallow females are experts in.
Maybe they're intimidated by good looking guys? My game is usually direct when I approach them.
Someone help me out here.
Anyway, I consider myself to be very good looking, but most people think I'm gay. What the f*ck? I don't have ANY female mannerisms, my voice is deep, and my method of communication is clearly masculine. Apparently in the US being cultured and well dressed makes you a fag.
I think it's just my area: alot of girls here are whales, and also have little awareness of the brands that most shallow females are experts in.
Maybe they're intimidated by good looking guys? My game is usually direct when I approach them.
Someone help me out here.
It happens. Randomly females will muster the courage to cold approach some guys or they get close to their target via social circles. Some will outright stalk guys.initiatorhater06 said:
It will never happen too often though, females are cowards & rejection is a lot worse for them.
OC Speedball
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But you didn't answer my question. Just because someone is ugly doesn't mean they have bad genes. Like I said, look at pro athletes and such. Naturally gifted genetically with the ability to perform and endure. They are freaks of nature... and a TON of them are ugly as hell.bigneil said:
I don't understand why ugliness would equate bad genes. I guess it's just one of those questions science can't answer, but they think they have the answer to. If all ugly people had bad genes they would have died off thousands of years ago.
I don't know if any of you guys are dog people, but maybe you are and you can follow what I am going to say. I own a Dutch Shepherd. It is typically used as a guard dog/companion dog. Now these dogs are used by special forces and police forces around the world, they are top notch athletically as far as dogs go. And like all "working" dogs they are bred for their working ability, NOT their looks. People that own working dogs don't care what they look like, in fact most actually look like mutts... they choose whichever on performs the best.
Same with German Shepherds. The ones used as show dogs are known for having hip problems and being lazy. (These are the ones most people have as pets) But the ones police forces use look a lot different from the ones from show bloodlines. They are often spotted with grey, have bent ears, are scrawnier, yet they are faster and live longer than show bloodline GS's.
So anyways, this whole good looks = good genetics thing has always puzzled me. Everyone has their own attributes and being ugly does not mean you are genetically inferior. Not trying to make myself feel better either, I'm an above average looking guy.
Rollo Tomassi
Master Don Juan
Finally, a good 'looks' question.OC Speedball said:
Here's the thing, the problem with this thinking is that what we perceive as good genetics (i.e. good breeding stock) should be indicated by physical attractiveness. Beauty is too subjective a term in this instance. Instead, try to think of it in terms of "attractiveness" as defined by what characteristics best "attract" the optimal quality, and most frequent, breeding opportunities.
For instance, flowers evolved brightly colored pigmentations and fragrances that optimized their chances to 'attract' insects and animals to assist in their reproductive efforts (pollination). Some colors and odors were selected for, while others were selected out. The same dynamic applies to fruiting plants. The same applies to physical manifestations in animals (bright plumage, muscularity, alpha behavior, etc.)
So in this instance the "good genes", the ones that best enable reproduction in the given environment, manifest themselves as specific outward characteristics that cue physical sexual responses in a given species. This is important; these physical sexual cues prompt physical sexual responses - in other words, you see a hot, nude, Playboy centerfold (physical prompt) and you heart rate increases, your pupils dilate and you get an erection (physical response) in preparation for sexual activity.
Whether or not Miss June Playmate carries a genetic flaw that dooms the whole species is irrelevant; you want to ƒuck her all the same and your body doesn't know any different. Your subconscious sexual arousal has been specifically evolved over millennia to respond to prompts that indicate a potential breeding opportunity. That's what's at the root of any "looks matter" debate - it's not what should be attractive by our conscious standards, it's what IS attractive to our subconscious sexual response.
