After giving it some thought, turns out my fear of rejection isn't *really* a fear of rejection

[GoodMan32]

The mindset issues are the biggest issues, and they affect behaviors. This falls under personality in "looks, money, status, personality". Although personality is the least influential variable in "looks, money, status, personality", it damages his SMV the most.



Ambition is a personality trait, but it relates to both money and status.

OP doesn't score well on any of looks, money, status, and personality attributes.

It's interesting how personality is the least influential, yet damages my SMV the most. That must mean my personality is extremely repulsive.

As for ambition, even if I'm lacking in ambition in many areas, there are certain areas where I'm ambitious. The fact I (10 years ago) packed whatever belongings I could fit on an airplane, then moved to a state where I knew no one, that's a sign of ambition.

The fact I've gotten on an airplane (solo) to visit places I had never been to (for no reason other than because I wanted to) shows ambition too.

The bolded part doesn’t make sense. Wanting to learn how to identify a segment of women who are attracted to the “non-improved” version of yourself, but refusing to engage in self-improvement, is inherently illogical. The reason is simple: learning requires action and adaptation, and the very process of learning often involves improving your methods. Learning is self-improvement, and without it, you’re not truly learning or growing in a way that increases your chances of success.

Refusing to self-improve while learning to find women who are attracted to your “non-improved” self is illogical. Learning requires action and adaptation, and the very process of learning often involves improving your methods. If you’re going to a therapist, you’re already engaging in self-improvement. Without self-improvement, you’re not increasing your chances of success, and the likelihood of achieving different results remains slim.

To increase your chances of finding women interested in your non-improved self, you need to significantly increase your approach rate, directly or indirectly. With a 2% success rate, approaching 50 women gives you a 63% chance of at least one positive outcome. Timing and environment are also key, as your examples show. As I’ve mentioned before, without understanding gender dynamics or how to respond to IOIs, you’ll continue working under randomized, uncontrolled experiments.

Sadly, If you’re not willing to invest time in improving yourself, it’s difficult to expect others to dedicate their time and effort in helping you. The advice you’re receiving is offered with good intentions, but your logic is often flawed, and others are simply trying to help you see a different perspective or correct you. Relying on others to make progress while you’re not putting in the effort can place an unfair burden on them.

Ok, you're right, you could say that learning methods to figure out how to find/identify the segment of the female population that's into me is a type of improvement.

My general point still stands, however. I have no desire to get muscular or make more money (which are 2 of the major self-improvements that have been proposed to me on various posts)

What I'd like is for posters to take the hint that I'm not going to work out or take a promotion at my job. I'm all ears, however, for methods on how I could increase my odds of finding a woman even without doing those things.

 

[Clockwerk50]

It's interesting how personality is the least influential, yet damages my SMV the most. That must mean my personality is extremely repulsive.

As for ambition, even if I'm lacking in ambition in many areas, there are certain areas where I'm ambitious. The fact I (10 years ago) packed whatever belongings I could fit on an airplane, then moved to a state where I knew no one, that's a sign of ambition.

The fact I've gotten on an airplane (solo) to visit places I had never been to (for no reason other than because I wanted to) shows ambition too.



Ok, you're right, you could say that learning methods to figure out how to find/identify the segment of the female population that's into me is a type of improvement.

My general point still stands, however. I have no desire to get muscular or make more money (which are 2 of the major self-improvements that have been proposed to me on various posts)

What I'd like is for posters to take the hint that I'm not going to work out or take a promotion at my job. I'm all ears, however, for methods on how I could increase my odds of finding a woman even without doing those things.

There are many ways to improve your looks (such as a better haircut, grooming, style, skincare, Invisalign, teeth whitening, facial creams, cosmetic procedures, diet, etc) and money (through buying shares, crypto, freelancing, starting a business, selling products on platforms like eBay or Alibaba, investing in real estate, etc.) without needing to work out or get a promotion.

Regardless, the advice remains the same: if you’re unwilling to work on the looks and money variables, you need to focus on increasing your status and personality, as well as your direct or indirect approaches, timing, and being in the right environments in order to raise your success rate.

That said, I’d suggest refraining from using your fears and phobias to counter-argue advice or as a basis for your posts, as they often come across as illogical or irrational. Since we lack the expertise to help you properly address these fears, continuing to rely on them as arguments is ultimately unproductive. Also, asking for advice without any intent to act on it—or simply to argue against it in bad faith—only creates unnecessary frustration for everyone involved.

 

[Gamisch]

That's the shifting within the market of the last 10-20 years.



Your whole strategy in conventional mating has been to look for outlier cases. That's not viable.

I agree especially with these two statements. It's a shift no less than shifting from landlines to mobile phones ,from nokia3310 to Ihpones. It's a different game now.

Imagine having trouble reading (SPARKING) IOI and still finding ways to limit your pool even further.

You sound like a blue haired fat ugly feminist who would rather find a guy who likes fat ugly blue haired feminists than improving how she looks.

Then she wonders why no guys like fat ugly obnoxious blue haired women.

You're lazy.

You don't want to put in any effort whatsoever to get what you want.

And you have a handy set of excuses why not getting what you want is not your fault.

I don't see any pvssy in your future other than pros.

As crazy as it sounds, @GoodMan32 's best feature on forum is he resembles that nagging voice in your head that has a million excuses for everything. Everytime when you try to do something unconventional this voice tells you you can't and shouldn't.

He is also a great barometer to measure your personal growth and such. This character is a perfect example of what you should NOT become. If you don't wanna improve this is waiting for you..I bet most men been in GMs position once or twice in life.

Every time when you feel like giving up on yourself replay the thousands of messages that Goodman wrote. THIS is what you'll become when you give up. A man full of excuses who is too stubborn to switch lanes. Thank you Goodman. I didn't felt like doing legs day until I thought about you bro! Now I'm going to the gym with a huge smile on my face!

 

[GoodMan32]

There are many ways to improve your looks (such as a better haircut, grooming, style, skincare, Invisalign, teeth whitening, facial creams, cosmetic procedures, diet, etc) and money (through buying shares, crypto, freelancing, starting a business, selling products on platforms like eBay or Alibaba, investing in real estate, etc.) without needing to work out or get a promotion.

Regardless, the advice remains the same: if you’re unwilling to work on the looks and money variables, you need to focus on increasing your status and personality, as well as your direct or indirect approaches, timing, and being in the right environments in order to raise your success rate.

That said, I’d suggest refraining from using your fears and phobias to counter-argue advice or as a basis for your posts, as they often come across as illogical or irrational. Since we lack the expertise to help you properly address these fears, continuing to rely on them as arguments is ultimately unproductive. Also, asking for advice without any intent to act on it—or simply to argue against it in bad faith—only creates unnecessary frustration for everyone involved.

I had my first counseling session with my new counselor today. She's better equipped for certain issues than these posters are; you're right.

As for the advice thing, I've never asked for fitness or career advice. So if I refuse to act on fitness/career advice, it's not that I'm refusing to take the advice I asked for. It's that I was given advice I never asked for.

I used to half-ass my hair (using clippers, I would clip it all to the same exact length; no real style). I eventually did some looksmaxxing by finding a style that works for my hair.

 

[Clockwerk50]

I had my first counseling session with my new counselor today. She's better equipped for certain issues than these posters are; you're right.

As for the advice thing, I've never asked for fitness or career advice. So if I refuse to act on fitness/career advice, it's not that I'm refusing to take the advice I asked for. It's that I was given advice I never asked for.

I used to half-ass my hair (using clippers, I would clip it all to the same exact length; no real style). I eventually did some looksmaxxing by finding a style that works for my hair.

I’m glad to see you’re open to improving in certain areas and have took the step of seeing a new therapist today. That is promising.

 

[Gamisch]

I had my first counseling session with my new counselor today. She's better equipped for certain issues than these posters are; you're right.

As for the advice thing, I've never asked for fitness or career advice. So if I refuse to act on fitness/career advice, it's not that I'm refusing to take the advice I asked for. It's that I was given advice I never asked for.

I used to half-ass my hair (using clippers, I would clip it all to the same exact length; no real style). I eventually did some looksmaxxing by finding a style that works for my hair.

So what are you asking for? You arrogant little muppet.

Odd how a licensed therapist is better for you than strangers on the internet...

You should be happy this a virtual space. IRL I wouldn't be able to hold my cool this long.

Just close this damn thread and move on. I put you on ignore.

I’m glad to see you’re open to improving in certain areas and have took the step of seeing a new therapist today. That is promising.

I envy your calmness . Incredible how you can remain calm dealing with this manchild.

 

[Clockwerk50]

View attachment 13805

So what are you asking for? You arrogant little muppet.

Odd how a licensed therapist is better for you than strangers on the internet...

You should be happy this a virtual space. IRL I wouldn't be able to hold my cool this long.

Just close this damn thread and move on. I put you on ignore.


I envy your calmness . Incredible how you can remain calm dealing with this manchild.

My phase of being angry with him ended with about 3 months ago. I have also been banging this new woman like a drawer that doesn’t close so it is all good on my side lol

Sadly, I think Mr. Goodman may have caused Mr. Amsterdam to delete his account so Mr. Goodman won that battle

 

[plumber]

My general point still stands, however. I have no desire to get muscular or make more money (which are 2 of the major self-improvements that have been proposed to me on various posts)

What I'd like is for posters to take the hint that I'm not going to work out or take a promotion at my job. I'm all ears, however, for methods on how I could increase my odds of finding a woman even without doing those things.

You will not be able to make progress unless you work out. Its not about how the women see you, it is about how you see you. This is not open to interpretation or negotiations. You will not be able to do it until you work out. Work on your physical self.

We could discuss about why you don't want to work out. Why? If is it a valid medical issue... If it is just don't want to, because. well that's silly and wrong.

Working out will change your perception of yourself, then with the new perception you will make progress. Those blocks in your mind that stop you from doing can be worked around from within, not from outside.

You can choose to fail, just do nothing and that will be the result.

Exactly how you describe, I can relate. I am 100% sure that you must do the hard work of physical improvement. It is the only way to heal your perception. Now... this forum can give you advice on how to do it, but can not make your choice for you. Only you can do it.

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY OR SHORTCUT.

 

[GoodMan32]

You will not be able to make progress unless you work out. Its not about how the women see you, it is about how you see you. This is not open to interpretation or negotiations. You will not be able to do it until you work out. Work on your physical self.

We could discuss about why you don't want to work out. Why? If is it a valid medical issue... If it is just don't want to, because. well that's silly and wrong.

Working out will change your perception of yourself, then with the new perception you will make progress. Those blocks in your mind that stop you from doing can be worked around from within, not from outside.

You can choose to fail, just do nothing and that will be the result.

Exactly how you describe, I can relate. I am 100% sure that you must do the hard work of physical improvement. It is the only way to heal your perception. Now... this forum can give you advice on how to do it, but can not make your choice for you. Only you can do it.

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY OR SHORTCUT.

In my early 20s, I managed to do relatively well with the ladies (when you take all my baggage into account), despite being skinny.

Additionally, I've had a few successes in the time since my early 20s, despite being skinny.

I don't want to work out because: Being an autist, normally daily life exhausts me to a degree neurotypicals could never imagine. I don't have the energy to work out.

 

[Gamisch]

In my early 20s, I managed to do relatively well with the ladies (when you take all my baggage into account), despite being skinny.

Additionally, I've had a few successes in the time since my early 20s, despite being skinny.

I don't want to work out because: Being an autist, normally daily life exhausts me to a degree neurotypicals could never imagine. I don't have the energy to work out.

Sigh...responding for the lurkers and in hopes my incel friend secretly reads this thread..

"In my early 20s, I managed to do relatively well with the ladies (when you take all my baggage into account), despite being skinny."

Because 1. You were in your PRIME. And 2. You were probably waaaay less invested in having mental health issues. And finally 3. Times were different a decade ago. (Why can't you just listen to us and accept it so you can take further steps??????) It's like living in 2003 arguing that you have this expensive landline telephone but people stopped calling you being oblivious to the fact that everyone has mobile phones now..your results from a decade + ago are now completely irrelevant. It's a new era

"I don't want to work out because: Being an autist, normally daily life exhausts me to a degree neurotypicals could never imagine. I don't have the energy to work out."

Okay. So we determined that your autism is the main reason you can't do the bare minimum that's required in MODERN DAY DATING in order to meet women's expectations. You don't wanna hit the gym ,you won't be noticed by modern women who have the upper hand in partner selection. That's the damn game bro!! YOU are a product tht YOU wanna sell to THEM. You are like a car seller who refuses to do maintenance and then complains nobody wants to buy the damn car.


I really really mean this and please don't let me ask this 5 times like we did recently. Just answer this question. What do you expect the forum can do for you?

One more thing: I've seen this movie played with with many men. It always ends in incel form, after they realise that the gap between then and women is too big to cclose. You either die or adept.

 

[SW15]

3. Times were different a decade ago. (Why can't you just listen to us and accept it so you can take further steps??????) It's like living in 2003 arguing that you have this expensive landline telephone but people stopped calling you being oblivious ti the fact that everyone has mobile phones now..your results from a decade + ago are now completely irrelevant .It's a new era

There are some adaptions that happen with time.

I like your 2003 example because the early 2000s is around the time that a lot of people moved from landline telephone to basic mobile phones. Males had to change seduction tactics around the early 2000s to account for the move from landlines to basic cell phones.

Circa 2010, many women started to expect that men were carrying smartphones and not basic cell phones. Also, a lot of early stage interactions changed from voice communication on basic cell phones to text messages on smartphones. This changed seduction at the time.

Male height has become a bigger factor for women since dating websites and later dating apps became more popular.

The importance of male physique and muscles is much bigger now than it was in the 1990s-2000s. Women have more options in this era and the gap between looks and money, status, and personality is bigger, especially for men under 35.

 

[Gamisch]

There are some adaptions that happen with time.

I like your 2003 example because the early 2000s is around the time that a lot of people moved from landline telephone to basic mobile phones. Males had to change seduction tactics around the early 2000s to account for the move from landlines to basic cell phones.

Circa 2010, many women started to expect that men were carrying smartphones and not basic cell phones. Also, a lot of early stage interactions changes from voice communication on basic cell phones to text messages on smartphones. This changed seduction at the time.

Male height has become a bigger factor for women since dating websites and later dating apps became more popular.

The importance of male physique and muscles is much bigger now than it was in the 1990s-2000s. Women have more options in this era and the gap between looks and money, status, and personality is bigger, especially for men under 35.

It's amazing how stubbornness prevents men from seeing reality for what it is.

Basically the entire thread is about a man refusing to take accountability in life. The upside is that all of us get to see what it looks like when you're feeling entitled to getting women without putting in the work.

 

[YourGreatestFear]

I guess this thread shows how big is the influence of blackpill, redpill and incel communities on modern dating advice and seduction forums... which are dead. And #metoo played its role as well. What fear of success, are you guys kidding? This **** doesn't exist in dating. Getting ripped wouldn't help him, either, there are guys with a perfect body who are incels, no kidding.

Dude just read some basic info on c0cky comedy (good old deangelo with his c0cky/funny), frame control, push pull, etc. You have zero game and you worry about silly stuff - because you have no social skills you can't "protect" your status. For you being rejected by a woman = losing your status because you don't know what to say to, well, not lose it even when a woman isn't into you. You're basically ready to be put down and treated like garbage without resisting because you don't know that you're allowed to, lmao. You're coming from a chasing position of a loser and seek validation and afraid of being socially punished by those you consider of higher value than you are.

 

[SW15]

good old deangelo with his c0cky/funny

David DeAngelo had some good stuff and was one of the earlier seduction writers that I read.

"Attraction isn't a choice" was his other big idea besides c0cky/funny in the early to mid 2000s. He used to write that all the time.

The idea is that men would be wasting their time appealing to woman through logical persuasion. The idea is men need make emotional connections with women in order to escalate their interactions.

frame control, push pull, etc. You have zero game

Frame control and push pull are useful concepts as well. I doubt OP has ever flirted using push pull.

 

[GoodMan32]

David DeAngelo had some good stuff and was one of the earlier seduction writers that I read.

"Attraction isn't a choice" was his other big idea besides c0cky/funny in the early to mid 2000s. He used to write that all the time.

The idea is that men would be wasting their time appealing to woman through logical persuasion. The idea is men need make emotional connections with women in order to escalate their interactions.



Frame control and push pull are useful concepts as well. I doubt OP has ever flirted using push pull.

I'm not entirely familiar with what push/pull means.

If I had to guess what it means, I suspect it might describe what I did with the last woman I had non-escort sex with: Flirted with her off and on for 2 years (in other words, there were stretches where I pulled back)

 

[plumber]

I don't want to work out because: Being an autist, normally daily life exhausts me to a degree neurotypicals could never imagine. I don't have the energy to work out.

yep; I get it. so that's the reason.

you have to do it, like your life depends on it. because it does.

I am 100% sure.

your right, neuros can and do not get it usually. agree with you on that.

I get it, you have to do this. Do you want to know how to do it?

 

[YourGreatestFear]

I'm not entirely familiar with what push/pull means.

If I had to guess what it means, I suspect it might describe what I did with the last woman I had non-escort sex with: Flirted with her off and on for 2 years (in other words, there were stretches where I pulled back)

Lol, not really. I mean, you could've just googled all the terms I mentioned in google... even on sosuave itself (both the site and the forum) there are articles regarding it. Push-pull is usually done within one interaction, it's not about wasting time for 2 years, ha-ha. Pull is what most guys do most of the time - complimenting, trying to escalate physically, hitting on her, talking about you together in a positive manner, building rapport (i.e. finding commonalities, vibing) etc. Push is when you break rapport (teasing her, making fun of her, saying that you won't get along), challenging her, negging, turn away from her physically, even physically move her away from you (for example after kissing). Generally, I'd say that the most effective is to be pushing 70-80% of the time, and the girl should earn your "pull". Most guys NEVER ever use the "push" in an interaction because a girl can react negatively and sometimes she will, the key is to know how to play around it.

Seduction isn't about making girl like you. It's about pushing her buttons and boundaries, showing that you're the guy who's allowed to do crap that other guys aren't allowed to do. The more crap a girl tolerates, the more she invests in you emotionally. The same works for guys, really - the more a guy tolerates from a girl, the more invested he is in her. This is why cuckolds and masochists exist, by the way. But the key here is to do it gradually, especially in the west. You can't just start being all hardcore on a girl, especially if you're inexperienced.

 

[SW15]

Push-pull is usually done within one interaction, it's not about wasting time for 2 years, ha-ha.

This is correct. Those who do push-pull would never waste 2 years on one prospect.

Pickup/seduction guys are good at not overinvesting and wasting time on one prospect. This is a concept that most beta males find challenging due to the blue pill.

Seduction isn't about making girl like you. It's about pushing her buttons and boundaries, showing that you're the guy who's allowed to do crap that other guys aren't allowed to do. The more crap a girl tolerates, the more she invests in you emotionally.

True

Generally, I'd say that the most effective is to be pushing 70-80% of the time, and the girl should earn your "pull". Most guys NEVER ever use the "push" in an interaction because a girl can react negatively and sometimes she will, the key is to know how to play around it.

Push-pull is something on the personality side.

A guy who is 6'2" with a great physique won't need to do much to get laid. Push-pull is less necessary.

A 6'2" hot guy can get away with beta behaviors to some extent and it won't make much of a difference initially. With longer term retention, it would make some difference.

A 6'2" hot guy naturally may act less beta because he'll have more abundance from women, especially on a swipe app.

 

[GoodMan32]

Lol, not really. I mean, you could've just googled all the terms I mentioned in google... even on sosuave itself (both the site and the forum) there are articles regarding it. Push-pull is usually done within one interaction, it's not about wasting time for 2 years, ha-ha. Pull is what most guys do most of the time - complimenting, trying to escalate physically, hitting on her, talking about you together in a positive manner, building rapport (i.e. finding commonalities, vibing) etc. Push is when you break rapport (teasing her, making fun of her, saying that you won't get along), challenging her, negging, turn away from her physically, even physically move her away from you (for example after kissing). Generally, I'd say that the most effective is to be pushing 70-80% of the time, and the girl should earn your "pull". Most guys NEVER ever use the "push" in an interaction because a girl can react negatively and sometimes she will, the key is to know how to play around it.

Seduction isn't about making girl like you. It's about pushing her buttons and boundaries, showing that you're the guy who's allowed to do crap that other guys aren't allowed to do. The more crap a girl tolerates, the more she invests in you emotionally. The same works for guys, really - the more a guy tolerates from a girl, the more invested he is in her. This is why cuckolds and masochists exist, by the way. But the key here is to do it gradually, especially in the west. You can't just start being all hardcore on a girl, especially if you're inexperienced.

For an autist like me, push sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

I agree though when you say the more a man tolerates from a woman, the more invested he is in her. The woman I had my last date with started giving me attitude a mere 4 days after our 1st date. I cut her loose at that point. 4 days isn't enough time to build the type of investment where I'd tolerate that type of behavior.

As for the woman I flirted with off and on for 2 years before finally getting laid by her, a major part of why it took as long as it did to get sex was because she could have gotten fired if we got caught having any sort of relationship (She wasn't a coworker. I met her through her work, however. And she was prohibited from getting involved with men she met through work)

 

[GoodMan32]

This is correct. Those who do push-pull would never waste 2 years on one prospect.

Pickup/seduction guys are good at not overinvesting and wasting time on one prospect. This is a concept that most beta males find challenging due to the blue pill.



True



Push-pull is something on the personality side.

A guy who is 6'2" with a great physique won't need to do much to get laid. Push-pull is less necessary.

A 6'2" hot guy can get away with beta behaviors to some extent and it won't make much of a difference initially. With longer term retention, it would make some difference.

A 6'2" hot guy naturally may act less beta because he'll have more abundance from women, especially on a swipe app.

The fact flirting off and on with one woman for 2 years got me the one and only instance of non-escort sex I've had since I was 23 would suggest that was a winning strategy in this one scenario (even if I'd agree overall that flirting with one woman for 2 years is a losing strategy)