Mixed Signals But Consistent Lays. High IL or Low IL?

[BeExcellent]

The last is your number 1 question: How do you know she is transactional.

Watch her behavior. If you look at aloof chick and what you have told us about her behavior its a transactional pattern; this for that. Now let's be honest all relationships are transactional on some axis to some degree (if you invest, I invest etc.) especially early on. But a good interaction is one where both people give to each other and positively reinforce the developing relationship. That is different than what aloof chick did.

She got flakey so you withdrew. Not positive reinforcement; not giving. Then (because she seeks attention/validation) she pokes you. Twice. Asking if you are mad. (Ok first of all what are we, 15 years old?? Not very mature in my book) but your answer was simply No.

Perfect answer. Your answer contained no excuse or explaination. No validation. So then what does she do? Uh oh. My supply of attention & validation is wavering, I better run over there & drug him with some freaky sex to get him back in compliance.....almost a narcissistic pattern but I don't know her.....and you have no idea but can resasonably assume she has other men she does this to. Some she will have sex with, others she doesn't need to.

Now does that look like a healthy behavioral pattern to you?

A girl with high self esteem would never act that way. They'd let you fade out. Negative reinforcement (but she will do what she needs to to get what she wants).......Totally toxc transactional behavior. Total manipulation. Not what you want.

Sex her if you like but be careful.

 

[Sega Genesis]

Asking if you are mad. (Ok first of all what are we, 15 years old?? Not very mature in my book) but your answer was simply No.

Perfect answer. Your answer contained no excuse or explaination. No validation.

I dunno @Be, I'm not understanding how being untruthful about how he feels resolves anything? Fact is james does care, he was bothered. Otherwise, this thread wouldn't exist.

As I said earlier he didn't have to say he was "mad" which I agree her wording was a bit juvenile and a bit extreme.

However instead of being dishonest and disingenuous by saying "no" and continue withdrawing giving her absolutely nothing to work with, why not be honest and tell her he was disappointed with the lack of consistency and he needs to rethink things? Or some variation thereof?

How would such a response from him give her validation?

Imo she made herself vulnerable by asking the question. Not because she sought validation. Not at that time anyway.

Chasing after him after he said no using her body and hot freaky sex to pull him might be viewed as her seeking validation but not asking the question hoping to inspire a conversation.

Just my sense, I'm not her so could be mistaken.

It's possible she may have been just as confused about his behavior as James was with hers.

She was a "plate" after all, a girl on his rotation. Which women can sense (I can anyway) and proceeding cautiously and prudently.

NOT saying I agree that how she behaved was right, it wasn't. Just providing a possible explanation for it.

In any event, I would assume she's not stupid and would know exactly what he was referring to.

Gauge her response. Talk about it.

If she ignores or turns it back on him in a vicious way or starts creating drama, politely end the conversation and continue withdrawing.

On their actual dates James said she was warm and engaging, it was only in between that had him confused.

I don't view this as her being "aloof" necessarily. Flakey and inconsistent yes, but not aloof.

Yet your advice is for him to act aloof? After she expressed at least some vulnerability by asking the question? And attempting to have a conversation about it versus denying her feelings, playing his game and withdrawing/fading out?

Again how does this resolve anything? Serious question. You have great insight but I am genuinely confused by your response here.

It all sounds very redpill to me, too redpill IMO. Quite manipulative actually.

Which talking to men (even on SS), they are now realizing how detrimental that can be. A play for power and control not to mention dishonest.

Versus honesty and genuineness while still maintaining a strong masculine frame and leading.

 

[Sega Genesis]

I don't mean to cause you grief, but I don't think that was the right play. Lot's of men here and men in general have cultivated this psuedo indifference/unreactive passivity mindset where they pretend they don't care even though they all do. If a women reverts to overt communication and asks you if you're upset, don't respond with the sort of covert/indirect feminine horseshvt communication that they typically do. It punishes them for being honest. If a women asks you if you're upset, and you are, tell her why. This would have been the perfect time to bring up her actions, rather than doing it reactively in the moment since it will be seen as weakness/neediness.

All of this^^. Illustrates what I just posted perfectly.

 

[BeExcellent]

I dunno @Be, I'm not understanding how being untruthful about how he feels resolves anything? Fact is james does care, he was bothered. Otherwise, this thread wouldn't exist.

As I said earlier he didn't have to say he was "mad" which I agree her wording was a bit juvenile and a bit extreme.

However instead of being dishonest and disingenuous by saying "no" and continue withdrawing giving her absolutely nothing to work with, why not be honest and tell her he was disappointed with the lack of consistency and he needs to rethink things? Or some variation thereof?

How would such a response from him give her validation?

Imo she made herself vulnerable by asking the question. Not because she sought validation. Not at that time anyway.

Chasing after him after he said no using her body and hot freaky sex to pull him might be viewed as her seeking validation but not asking the question hoping to inspire a conversation.

Just my sense, I'm not her so could be mistaken.

It's possible she may have been just as confused about his behavior as James was with hers.

She was a "plate" after all, a girl on his rotation. Which women can sense (I can anyway) and proceeding cautiously and prudently.

NOT saying I agree that how she behaved was right, it wasn't. Just providing a possible explanation for it.

In any event, I would assume she's not stupid and would know exactly what he was referring to.

Gauge her response. Talk about it.

If she ignores or turns it back on him in a vicious way or starts creating drama, politely end the conversation and continue withdrawing.

On their actual dates James said she was warm and engaging, it was only in between that had him confused.

I don't view this as her being "aloof" necessarily. Flakey and inconsistent yes, but not aloof.

Yet your advice is for him to act aloof? After she expressed at least some vulnerability by asking the question? And attempting to have a conversation about it versus denying her feelings, playing his game and withdrawing/fading out?

Again how does this resolve anything? Serious question. You have great insight but I am genuinely confused by your response here.

It all sounds very redpill to me, too redpill IMO. Quite manipulative actually.

Which talking to men (even on SS), they are now realizing how detrimental that can be. A play for power and control not to mention dishonest.

Versus honesty and genuineness while still maintaining a strong masculine frame and leading.

He referred to her as aloof. That's a simple way for me to make clear which woman I am referring to.

I think a simple No was the right answer to the 'are you mad' question because if he says anything else at all he's rewarding her childish behavior and I don't think that is a useful thing no matter what else he says. Do you explain to a child how you are bothered by the child's behavior? Not unless you wish the child to know how much power you have given them. The same applies here. And I'm not meaning a teachable parenting type moment. I'm talking about behavior the child (or person) already knows is bratty/annoying behavior. Never reward that.

Why on Earth should he reveal the amount of mental real estate she occupies? That gives her attention/validation. This is not his wife or girlfriend. If it were then additional comments might be warranted.

ANY additional response is (+) reinforcement of her childish behavior and will encourage more of the same.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Hey everyone. Thank you all so much for the input. I really appreciate it.

This thread really took off and the opinions have helped me a great deal over the past few days in processing my own thoughts and my course of action.

An update to the situation:

Since she had been giving mixed signals, I decided to just turn my focus on another plate of mine.

This other plate has much higher IL than this mixed signals girl (but maybe a bit too high) she bombards me with messages (sometimes double texting) and is proactively DTF. Like many of you said, she is really easy in terms of our interaction. No mixed signals. Straight up just really into me. Asking me out all the time. We hooked up in the mean time. There is no ambiguity with this girl but it's funny because despite the transparency of it, the mixed signals plate had been on the back of my mind. Mostly just me wondering what's up with all that. (This shows that the whole mixed signals game can be quite effective on some men, more on this below).

Anyway after I dropped the mixed signals plate. 0 interaction and attention from me. She started to throw breadcrumbs my way (most of which I ignored) including commenting on my recent Facebook updates, sending me a random song on Spotify, sharing some funny memes with me, etc. Not much response from me. Because I've given up on such a confusing girl. After a long bout of withdrawal. She eventually messaged me to ask me if I was mad at her. I just said no. I then went to a new boxing class and she took that opportunity to ask me again if I was mad at her and tried to explain herself. I said I wasn't I've just been busy and truly I have been very busy with all the life activities.

Taking into account what some of you have said, compliance/agreeableness = everything I need to know (and also reminding myself this is just a plate, I had nothing to lose) and I just said "Anyway busy week but I'm planning to chill at home tonight, want to join?" She said "Yes I would love to" immediately.

Anyway she came over to my place, we had hot freaky sex. Things were great. In person as usual, I don't doubt she has high IL for me. After sex, we smoked up and chatted. And during those moments, I felt some strong LTR vibes as in maybe she wants to push for one with me. Not that the LTR conversation has come up yet but I am sure that's on her mind. I expect she will back off a bit again for awhile, do some weird confusing thing until the next time I ask her out. It's a pattern.

My own thoughts:

I don't doubt that this plate has high IL for me. In retrospect, I think perhaps she is engaging in some mind game. You see, I've met another woman like this a year ago. I even started a thread about it back then because I honestly don't meet these types often and they confuse me but I believe there are a certain type of high IL women that will use mixed signals to get you to invest more. I am talking about delayed messages, short messages, withheld communication, hot and cold behavior. They will do things to confuse you. But if they're into you then consistently over time you will come to realize that the interaction always goes your way if you step back far enough and have the resilience to weather through the games. That girl I met a year back ultimately became a stalker, her IL for me was through the roof and all the mixed signals I had experienced back in the early stages were really just part of her tactics to get me hooked. Now I am not saying that this plate is exactly the same. I could be wrong but this is just my conclusion at this point.

Given that this plate is very beautiful, it isn't inconceivable that she is branching around with other men as some of you suggested. That could also very well be it and why she did this. But the fact that she delayed her responses rather than just tell me outright she is unavailable after 24 hours, sounds gamey to me, especially how she freaked out immediately after when I withdrew. But what some of you said really hit it on the nail for me, to answer some of you, I still see her as a plate. I mean we have only just met not long ago, it's too early to think about anything else. I need to remind myself that this is still just the early stages, I've got to be more cool and level headed, treat a plate like a plate, focus on the big picture and judge her by her actions.

Simple Takeaway:

Gauging IL = Focus on their actions and consistency over time. Focus on their compliance and agreeableness.

Confusing IL = Focus on your rotation and other plates if all else fails and they just make it too confusing for you. Move on if necessary.

But that's not truly high IL.

It's conditional IL.

The other plate is definitely high IL.

Even you notice the difference between the two.

This girl only circles back around when she thinks she is losing you and then uses sex to try and rope you back in and continue the process again.

She is likely also spinning plates which is why she goes back and forth with you...she is busy with other guys in the meantime.

If she had high IL she would get rid of thoss men to be with you and would be near obsessed with you. Clearly that's not her based on what you've said and you seem to know that.

To me this denotes you are the backup plan or the guy she sees until she finds what she actually is really looking for long term. Nothing wrong with that, happens regularly without even knowing it many times, but that isn't what I would consider truly high IL.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I dunno @Be, I'm not understanding how being untruthful about how he feels resolves anything? Fact is james does care, he was bothered. Otherwise, this thread wouldn't exist.

As I said earlier he didn't have to say he was "mad" which I agree her wording was a bit juvenile and a bit extreme.

However instead of being dishonest and disingenuous by saying "no" and continue withdrawing giving her absolutely nothing to work with, why not be honest and tell her he was disappointed with the lack of consistency and he needs to rethink things? Or some variation thereof?

How would such a response from him give her validation?

Imo she made herself vulnerable by asking the question. Not because she sought validation. Not at that time anyway.

Chasing after him after he said no using her body and hot freaky sex to pull him might be viewed as her seeking validation but not asking the question hoping to inspire a conversation.

Just my sense, I'm not her so could be mistaken.

It's possible she may have been just as confused about his behavior as James was with hers.

She was a "plate" after all, a girl on his rotation. Which women can sense (I can anyway) and proceeding cautiously and prudently.

NOT saying I agree that how she behaved was right, it wasn't. Just providing a possible explanation for it.

In any event, I would assume she's not stupid and would know exactly what he was referring to.

Gauge her response. Talk about it.

If she ignores or turns it back on him in a vicious way or starts creating drama, politely end the conversation and continue withdrawing.

On their actual dates James said she was warm and engaging, it was only in between that had him confused.

I don't view this as her being "aloof" necessarily. Flakey and inconsistent yes, but not aloof.

Yet your advice is for him to act aloof? After she expressed at least some vulnerability by asking the question? And attempting to have a conversation about it versus denying her feelings, playing his game and withdrawing/fading out?

Again how does this resolve anything? Serious question. You have great insight but I am genuinely confused by your response here.

It all sounds very redpill to me, too redpill IMO. Quite manipulative actually.

Which talking to men (even on SS), they are now realizing how detrimental that can be. A play for power and control not to mention dishonest.

Versus honesty and genuineness while still maintaining a strong masculine frame and leading.

If he admits he was bothered she then knows exactly how to manipulate him and that it's pretty easy to do so, which then puts him in a weak position.

He put himself in a stronger position because now she doesn't know and was forced to show her hand and her hamster wheel is spinning instead of OP letting her know that she got his hamster wheel spinning.

 

[BeExcellent]

If he admits he was bothered she then knows exactly how to manipulate him and that it's pretty easy to do so, which then puts him in a weak position.

He put himself in a stronger position because now she doesn't know and was forced to show her hand and her hamster wheel is spinning instead of OP letting her know that she got his hamster wheel spinning.

^^^^^This. Agree 100%.

 

[SW15]

Your Early Frame Announcement is that you seek shorter term sex and aren't seeking longer term monogamy.

The majority of women who seek longer term relationships and/or monogamy will often disappear quickly. They may disappear after a sexless first date or in 10-30 minutes of talking to you on an approach in real life. Once they sense the goals aren't the same, they are gone.

What happens is that you tend to attract women who aren't worthy of LTRs and many of them exhibit behaviors that are frustrating. Hot/cold and other inhumane treatment.

I happen to agree strongly with @SW15 in what he said above, namely that you are screening out the LTR worthy girls right away & so by default selecting for the insecure/anxious/damaged/more crazy women.

In previous posts, @jamesfromhouston has mentioned using swipe apps and going to nightlife venues to meet women.

A broad cross section of women use swipe apps and go to nightlife venues. It can be difficult to generalize the population of women on swipe apps and in nightlife venues. There's an idea that exists that interactions formed from swipe apps and in nightlife venues lead to lower quality interactions. I think there's some merit to that idea.

@jamesfromhouston does have to consider what he wants in life, his own goals, and how he meets women.

If he continues to have the same goals and use the same methods for meeting women, he will continue to have many frustrating interactions with women. These frustrating interactions will happen whether he gets laid in a specific interactions or doesn't get laid in a specific interactions. These interactions are likely to take their toll on his mental and physical health.

 

[Divorced w 3]

Early Frame Announcement

my new favorite term ever

 

[BeExcellent]

In previous posts, @jamesfromhouston has mentioned using swipe apps and going to nightlife venues to meet women.

A broad cross section of women use swipe apps and go to nightlife venues. It can be difficult to generalize the population of women on swipe apps and in nightlife venues. There's an idea that exists that interactions formed from swipe apps and in nightlife venues lead to lower quality interactions. I think there's some merit to that idea.

@jamesfromhouston does have to consider what he wants in life, his own goals, and how he meets women.

If he continues to have the same goals and use the same methods for meeting women, he will continue to have many frustrating interactions with women. These frustrating interactions will happen whether he gets laid in a specific interactions or doesn't get laid in a specific interactions. These interactions are likely to take their toll on his mental and physical health.

The thing to remember is its a numbers game anywhere. I like nightlife (concerts/bars/clubs/restaurants/happy hours) and so do many other people. I've met every LTR (includng 2 husbands) at nightclubs, both husbands were met at live music venues....

Solid people like to enjoy entertainment too ya know.

Ditto swipe apps. My cousin met her husband there & so have several friends.

So you can't discount those environments in an overarching way. I've always thought dudes doing approaches in grocery stores came off weird. Go somewhere people expect to meet others. Oftentimes its otherwise far too contrived.

 

[SW15]

The thing to remember is its a numbers game anywhere.

The idea of a "numbers game" in mating pursuits, sales, and marketing is something that is partially but not fully true. Dating/mating has commonalities with sales and marketing in business (often areas where the term "numbers game" is used) but it's not fully analogous.

Men will need to do some amount of activity (numbers/volume of interactions) in order to achieve something. That's inescapable.

It's not solely about the quantity of interactions. Quantity of interactions won't mean much if the man's fundamentals are bad or he's choosing the worst places to meet women. It's possible to achieve this way, but the quantity of interactions is going to have to be much higher. When quantity of interactions is higher, there's a much higher probability of many bad interactions.

Doing good things reduces inefficiencies and the quantity of interactions/bad interactions.

I like nightlife (concerts/bars/clubs/restaurants/happy hours) and so do many other people. I've met every LTR (includng 2 husbands) at nightclubs, both husbands were met at live music venues....

That's good. Nightlife venues are a common way that people meet. Prior to online dating websites getting de-stigmatized in the mid-2000s (which evolved into dating apps on smartphones in the 2010s), it was the main way people without social circles met. There are plenty of stories of people from the 1970s-2000s meeting in bars/nightlife venues. Neil Strauss' "The Game" (released 2005) and pickup artist Mystery's "Mystery Method" (released 2007) were mainly focused on men meeting women by going out to nightlife venues. In "Mystery Method", there's one throwaway line on one page that mentions that the method is applicable in non-bar venues.

Nick Krauser and Tom Torero promoted the "London Daygame Model" on the idea of trying to apply Mystery Method principles to non-bar venues. In essence, they took that one throwaway line on one page of "Mystery Method" and fleshed it out in the field and later in published material.

I digress.

One of the best things about nightlife venues/bars is that the female audience there is more likely to be unattached and looking for new penis as compared to any other non-bar venue. A more targeted audience is good.

Mostly everyone (male or female) who finds themselves single and looking at some point in life will end up in a bar/nightlife venue.

Ditto swipe apps. My cousin met her husband there & so have several friends.

Some men can do well on swipe apps. Women have abundance there and they can control their own destines on the apps with that abundance.

The men who do well on swipe apps are ones who are near the top of the market. Middle of the bell curve men (some of whom are good mates) are usually better suited towards using another method.

A middle of the bell curve man in a bigger city can get laid for find longer term relationships on apps. It's just going to be far more inefficient and he's going to have to do large volumes of virtual approaches. He's going to have to make thousands of swipes and start a lot of interactions to make his goals a reality.

you can't discount those environments in an overarching way. I've always thought dudes doing approaches in grocery stores came off weird. Go somewhere people expect to meet others. Oftentimes its otherwise far too contrived.

Non-bar approaching is such a broad category. It can be anything like going up to a woman after a fitness class, meeting a woman in some hobby-based activity group, or approaching women randomly outdoors, in indoor retail venues, or on the general gym floor. Some of these approaches can look more natural than others. Some venues are better for approaching than others and some men are more smooth in their delivering of opening lines in non-bar venues.

A major downside of non-bar approaching is that the audience is less targeted. In non-bar approaching, there's less certainty that the approached woman is looking for a new mate. I also think that there's less of an element of expectation of approaching in non-bar venues, which I also think is more of a downside than upside. The upside of an unexpected approach is that a woman is less like to have her defense shields up, like she would in a nightlife venue where she's expecting approaches.

 

[Divorced w 3]

The idea of a "numbers game" in mating pursuits, sales, and marketing is something that is partially but not fully true.

Doing good things reduces inefficiencies and the quantity of interactions/bad interactions.

Effective salesmanship is no different whatsoever. I am more technically proficient than the majority of my competition and I will do what most won’t do, whatever that may mean given the circumstances. It’s a blend of skill and attitude, and that is a common trait of anyone who is good at anything, irrespective of the discipline.

 

[Sega Genesis]

If he admits he was bothered she then knows exactly how to manipulate him and that it's pretty easy to do so, which then puts him in a weak position.

He put himself in a stronger position because now she doesn't know and was forced to show her hand and her hamster wheel is spinning instead of OP letting her know that she got his hamster wheel spinning.

Fair enough if that's the frame he's in - afraid of appearing "weak."

Where I disagree is that I don't view a man showing his hand in a direct, assertive and confident way as being weak.

Again, I'm female and I speak from my feminine brain.

I am not talking about professing undying love and devotion and/or falling over backwards for her, hardly!

But rather directly and boldly stating if/when he's bothered or disappointed when asked a direct question by a woman he's dating.

I actually view that as "strong" and "masculine," the opposite of weak.

It's a delicate balance between behaving like a complete Simp, allowing his own rabbit wheels to spin driven by his insecurities.... and being direct, bold, confident and honest with NO apologies and NO fear of appearing weak or anything else.

It's how a man leads a woman he wants/desires in the direction he'd like it to go versus falling into her frame and continue playing games, distancing with no explanation, and being elusive and evasive like SHE was behaving.

In my experience very few men are able to pull this off successfully so they hide behind redpill strategies, dishonesty and game playing.

Not my gig personally.

That said, re the first woman and judging her IL based on her actions (being so elusive when James directly asked her out, taking over 24 hours to respond with yes or no etc) her IL was low.

Since having a woman with high interest is important to him (hence this thread), even if she is just a plate, he would have been better off simply nexting her imo.

He's got other women in his rotation and attracting new women regularly. He doesn't need this one chick who apparently was/is causing him grief with her elusive inconsistent behavior.

Just my take, we can agree to disagree.

 

[jamesfromhouston]

Thank you everyone for your responses.

After reading and considering everyone's input, I think my conclusion on this particular plate is either:

1) I am actually one of her monkey branches and therefore the inconsistent behavior from her side;

OR

2) She is playing games with me and using tactics to hook me.

No doubt she must have some level of IL for me but probably not high enough to overcome her own branches or insecurities.

With either conclusions, she no longer deserves a high ranking spot in my rotation. Mainly because I don't have time for drama and inconsistencies in my life. I will keep things on back burner with her.

-

On the separate topic of approaching; yes I have been approaching women mainly through night life venues and OLD.

Day game is insanely hard for me with high rejection rate.

I do notice that my results on OLD have gone downhill in recent years, despite improvements in my own SMV (fitness, finance, etc). I suspect this comes down to the general decline with OLD, which is something I will contribute and share on another poster's thread on OLD.

 

[SW15]

Day game is insanely hard for me with high rejection rate.

Daygame is quite difficult.

I have posted a link in multiple threads before where I used Tom Torero's estimates to show that a daygamer would need to approach 75 women to go on 4-5 first dates and have sex with 1 woman. That's using a strong systematic approach like the London Daygame Model. I think a lot of daygamers need to approach more than 75 women to find a new sexual partner and even a few first dates. I think many daygamers need to approach more than 100 women to find sex.

Also, we need to consider how the approaches are done. Are they flat out spam style approaches? Spam style approaching during the day can get a man a lot of quantity of approaches. Spam approaching produces a high rejection rate.

More targeted daygame approaching (looking for good body language and other cues) would slightly reduce rejection rates and harshness of rejections as compared to spam style approaching. However, looking for good body language in non-bar venues will drastically reduce quantity of approaches. There's still a lot of rejection this way, though more of the rejections are 'soft rejections'.

I don't think it's possible to avoid a high rejection rate in daygame. However, night game and swipe apps also have high rejection rates. I posted that one video from Wheat Waffles where a mid-tier guy swiped on over 16,000 women to go on dates with 3 women and not have sex with any of the 3 women.

Some men think that taking a higher quantity of rejections behind an electronic screen (somewhere in the thousands) is preferable to taking 100-200 direct rejections in person. Both things stink.

I do notice that my results on OLD have gone downhill in recent years, despite improvements in my own SMV (fitness, finance, etc). I suspect this comes down to the general decline with OLD, which is something I will contribute and share on another poster's thread on OLD.

Most men's swipe app efforts have gotten worse over time. I stopped using swipe apps years ago due to bad results. Before I stopped using them, I also noticed my own SMV improvements were too incremental to make a difference on swipe apps.