Why are there so many dudes in the PUA/Game community that don't have their sh*t together?

[Isildur1]

I think the community over rates “game” and under rates career, status and physique.

You can have zero “game” but have a solid career and look good and you’ll do immeasurably better than someone you describe.

Do we really think a doctor would lose out to a delivery drivers because the driver negged the girl? LOL

I know plenty of med students and doctors who get next to nothing - if you work long hours then what time scale do you have to approach?

Also can they create options for themselves? if you have a run of the mill guy who commits to approaching consistently he will outperform most doctors in the Western nations. Game is about increasing options ultimately and the best way to do so for me personally was approaching during the day - before daygame in my mid twenties I had had only 7 dates with women - after doing approaching on and off for 3 years in various countries I'd upped that to roughly 80 - for me that was a massive increase and I learnt a lot about during that time- game and consistency is definitely underrated often at times by a lot of men who just want to protect their egos or procrastinate .

The times when I got the best results with women was when I was immersed and just being consistent- between 18 and 25 I wanted to do cold approach so badly but my ego got in the way of things - after I broke that barrier and got some dates and lays from daygame It changed my life massively and I no longer had scarcity in my life.

 

[Isildur1]

This reminds me of every other jack@ssy red-pill guru.

“I got another caller on the line. Hey buddy, what’s up?”

“I’m hurting bro; I got no chicas.”

“How much dough are you bringing in?”

“60k.”

“Alright, solve that. Open up a business. Become a gorillionaire.”

“Thanks.”

I wonder if the men I grew up with who were screwing around in their teenage years had to monetarily prove themselves to get action. my guess is most men lost their virginity without having one red cent to their name. I didn’t. And when I was single, the most memorable four-month fling I had, what I call “porn come to life,” occurred after I was laid off from my job at a hospital that closed. This woman earned far more than I did.

I actually think this red-pill call for all men to become entrepreneurs and “self-made” is stupid and maladaptive.

think it engineers a lot of procrastination - I mean look at red pilers like Richard Cooper - he dated two single mum's and milked his sob story for 800k YouTube subscribers and people paying for his divorce courses . Arguably Richard Cooper is the most unsuccessful dating guru men have ever seen yet men flock and pay for his services why? so an alpha male can just shout a few self help quotes at them. - I don't even know if theres evidence of him grabbing a coffee date with a half decent chick . These men would be literally better off not listening to him and going out actively creating options

don't get me wrong I an't ditching self improvement - but I know a lot of men who'd be far more better off consistently approaching than they would be improving their income or business.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

Over the past few years, I have met a number of guys that do PUA cold approach and follow a lot of PUA content out there themselves. In getting to know a number of these guys, I notice an overarching trend with about 80% of them. The vast majority of these dudes do not have their lives together, especially in a financial and career sort of way.

You ask, "Why are there so many dudes in the PUA/Game community that don't have their sh*t together?", but the answer to that question is in the question.
These dudes are in the PUA/Game community because they don't have their sh*t together. IF they had their sh*t together, they wouldn't be in the PUA/Game community.

I'm one of the few exceptions, but then, I'm not 'in' the PUA/Game community. I'm here to do research into the Manosphere and Toxic Masculinity for writing a fictional character in a novel I'm working on. And actually SoSuave is definitely not the worst place in the Manosphere, I've visited a few Discord servers filled with twisted individuals beyond any type of redemption. I'm pretty good at detachment, but they nauseated me and their sickness is one important reason why I want to write this particular novel.

And I have to say, I understand why there are so many broken guys in this community, and why they stay here. There's a Dutch saying, "Gedeelde smart is halve smart", which means that to share your sorrow is to half your sorrow. Most of the community is a peer group of failed men commiserating with each other and trying to succeed with each other's help. Which is one of the reasons why I sometimes drop my detachment and hold out a helping hand. But I'm a realist and I know people don't learn much from being helped. Support, yes. Help, no. If you don't get out under your own power, you will fail. And then you'll be a failure and a warning to others.

Most guys are here because they are sad and angry and, most of all, lost. The world changed and they 'missed the boat' and now they're mired in the swamp of despair wondering if they can ever get on dry land. They are tired from wandering the swamp and want to be rescued. Someone to come and help them to regain their dignity and self esteem. And all they encounter are fraudsters and snake oil salesmen. And other lost swamp dwellers who don't want to admit they're lost, so they confuse them by pretending to know the way out, making each other even sadder and angrier and more lost than ever.

A few guys have seen a way out of the swamp and try to encourage the swamp dwellers to follow their steps, but the dwellers don't want to walk, they want to be on dry land now. Without effort. It doesn't matter how much the guys try to explain the dwellers really need to take the steps themselves and refuse to carry them, the dwellers just get frustrated that the guys don't want to lift them on their shoulders and carry them out.

And the swamp dwellers keep being distracted by the snake oil salesmen, who promise effortless dry land, but you have to pay for it. And how the morons pay and pay, and never see the dry land, because the snake oil salesmen lead them deeper into the swamp of despair so they can sell them more snake oil.

An interesting community, but I'm glad I'm on dry land observing the struggle, not taking part.

 

[Plinco]

Over the past few years, I have met a number of guys that do PUA cold approach and follow a lot of PUA content out there themselves. In getting to know a number of these guys, I notice an overarching trend with about 80% of them. The vast majority of these dudes do not have their lives together, especially in a financial and career sort of way.

Like I am talking about dudes over the age of 30 that are unemployed, live with their parents, barely make any money, and do not really have much of a career path. The amount of dudes working odd jobs like busboy at a restaurant or at some fast food place yet going on PUA forums to find when they can go out to sarge. It is like I don't exactly get it. Even when I have gamed while unemployed, it was after having at least a good bit of runway as well as making supplemental income (don't you dare make a joke here @BillyPilgrim lol).

It is like once in a blue moon I might meet a guy who works a White Collar job and does game. Most of the time, this is the story.

1. Dude lives with parents way out in the suburbs

2. Drives out to the city on weekends to do daygame and nightgame sessions

3. Hopes he can sneak girls into his car

Its like are so many PUA coaches having this whole gimmick where they tell guys "I can help you get models while you are broke". It is what eventually turned me off to John Anthony Lifestyle.

Because these dudes are attempting to fake their self-esteem by using sex as a drug, instead of earning their self-esteem.

 

[Manure Spherian]

think it engineers a lot of procrastination - I mean look at red pilers like Richard Cooper - he dated two single mum's and milked his sob story for 800k YouTube subscribers and people paying for his divorce courses . Arguably Richard Cooper is the most unsuccessful dating guru men have ever seen yet men flock and pay for his services why? so an alpha male can just shout a few self help quotes at them. - I don't even know if theres evidence of him grabbing a coffee date with a half decent chick . These men would be literally better off not listening to him and going out actively creating options

don't get me wrong I an't ditching self improvement - but I know a lot of men who'd be far more better off consistently approaching than they would be improving their income or business.

Correct.

I’m including a pertinent quote from Roger Devlin:

“The young man or woman who waits for marriage” in the contemporary West is likely either to wait forever or to be divorced within a few years.”

He is speaking of the notion of waiting for marriage for religious or ethical reasons but we can replace that with, “The young man who works to become a gorillionaire thinking he will have revenge as a silver fox will be waiting forever!”

I also consider “self improvement” (read: getting status and money to get women) is route to cleaning up Chad’s leftovers.

More pertinent quotes from Devlin:

“What were our bachelor’s female contemporaries doing all those years while he was an impoverished, lonely stripling who found them intensely desirable? Fornicating with dashing fellows who mysteriously declined to “commit,” marrying and walking out on their husbands, or holding out for perfection. Now, lo and behold, these women, with their youthful looks gone and rapidly approaching menopause, are willing to go out with him. If they are satisfied with the free meals and entertainment he provides, he may be permitted to fork over a wedding ring. Then they will graciously allow him to support them and the children they had by another man for the rest of his life. (I have seen a woman’s personal ad stating her goal of “achieving financial security for myself and my daughters.”) Why in heaven’s name would any man sign up for this? As one man put it to me: “if the kitten didn’t want me, I don’t want the cat.”

“In our society, a definite pattern has already emerged of “singles” groups or events being composed of innocent, never-married men in their thirties and cynical, bitter, often divorced women. What have the bachelors been doing with themselves all these years? So far, in the West, they have not been forming criminal gangs. (They would probably be more attractive to women if they did: everyone seems to have heard stories about men on death row being besieged with offers of marriage from bored, thrill-seeking females.)”

This is why I’ve been harping on about men getting their social lives together as soon as possible! We aren’t in the days in which people paired off at 18 to 21 years old and a 25 year old wife was considered an old wife! Men are in Darwinian-mating times. It now takes women to get women. And the males who have first dibs will likely never be womanless throughout life, even if they grow beer bellies later in life. Even well-adjusted, socially-adjusted normie men will do well so long as they establish themselves early!

Even on here we can see a pattern in which men who missed social establishment are hurting, and might hurt forever! Young lurkers here should take notice.

 

[SW15]

I've seen average borderline ugly western men slay it in Korea and China
I've seen attractive high earning men struggle hard in London - where the competition is just steep , no options and fighting for scraps off tinder.

What you described in London is a common occurrence in big USA cities too. A more average guy in a USA city is fighting for scraps off of one of the Big 3 swipe apps (Tinder, Bumble, Hinge). If he's a little more ambitious, he might do some bar approaches and fight for scraps there. A smaller percentage of men do non-bar approaching.

I don't think the overwhelming majority of men would be able to spam approach like that on any sort of regular basis, so it's not even worth considering. I personally can't imagine going out of my way like that and investing that kind of time and energy into it, I'd find it exhausting.

In big cities in the USA, spam approaching is very uncommon at this point. Approaching in real life in general is becoming less common. Fewer men are approaching at the bars too. Bars are hosting more and more swipe app and DM arranged dates.

I've done more non-bar approaching than the majority of men in my city.

Fashion Shows, Gallery events, Art Festivals, Private Boat parties. At some of these events the ratio is in favor of men 3:1! You meeting a different caliber of woman. Yes they are still women but meeting women at high-function events, you not meeting Stacy who is an elementary school teacher that you would meet at the divebar. You meeting Kathy who is a trust fund chick and she looks like a smokeshow. Plus has brains to boot

It's a different ballgame

Most men have little access to venues with good ratios.

The only place where the typical man gets good ratios are fitness classes (either at a gym or a standalone facility). However, women are not very sociable after fitness classes and the ratios there don't mean much. As a result, few men utilize fitness classes for trying to find dates and sexual options.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

Yup you get it Fashion Shows, Gallery events, Art Festivals, Private Boat parties. At some of these events the ratio is in favor of men 3:1! You meeting a different caliber of woman. Yes they are still women but meeting women at high-function events, you not meeting Stacy who is an elementary school teacher that you would meet at the divebar. You meeting Kathy who is a trust fund chick and she looks like a smokeshow. Plus has brains to boot

It's a different ballgame

It's pre-selection, both for men and women.
You meet a lot of eligible women, but you yourself need to have your sh!t together or you will still strike out.
As an artist I frequently visit all type of art events and you can immediately spot the grifters and the frauds.
And since the women there aren't idiots, they spot them too.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

The hordes of thirsty guys from social media / tinder make them think that they are amazing, and then their ego starts going crazy thinking and then spiral to bitterness

Or suicide:


They don't understand that the free validation they get from their orbiters isn't worth anything. Validation has to be earned.

 

[Isildur1]

What you described in London is a common occurrence in big USA cities too. A more average guy in a USA city is fighting for scraps off of one of the Big 3 swipe apps (Tinder, Bumble, Hinge). If he's a little more ambitious, he might do some bar approaches and fight for scraps there. A smaller percentage of men do non-bar approaching.

honestly you walk around London you see a lot of male 8s and 9s dating female 5s who think they are the **** in reality they are just living in a city where the sexual market favours them

My brother who lived in London has a tonne of value-6 ft , successful author , multi millionaire etc. the best he managed to date was a single mother off tinder - hoeflation is real - the biggest issue for him was he saw pua as creepy and never really made active effort to approach women consistently as he saw puas as creeps - I think the common misconceptions men have over what consistent approaching can do for them is understated and I don't think the red pill helps - looking back I don't think more "value" or smv would've helped my brother but pua approaching and consistency would've done him a world of good. again each person's situation is different

 

[Isildur1]

One thing is to have realistic standards and a totally different thing is to be delusional

The problem is not that people should stay or not in bad relationships or that they should stay or not in relationships with people bellow their standards

The problem is with the standards that you have in the first place

Women “raised” artificially their standards, while guys as a way to combat this dropped their standards till they have none of a fraction on what they should have

And ofc this creates the shocks in the dating market, a shock in the market that affects both men and women at the same rate

Same things that is happening now for example with education worldwide, the level of functional illiterate people is at the highest level ever

Same as school/highschool dropouts

You would expect that the more developed a country is, the better people will be educated. But this is very far away from the truth

I think a lot of men don't know that the grass can be greener on the other side- for me personally some of the best women I met were thanks to learning pua skills and wing manning with competent puas - but it's hard to convince men to do it - especially in the west where they feel beaten down and low confidence- in Brazil I saw a lot of men who had nothing do quite well with their dating lives because they had a good vibe and truckloads of confidence and self esteem- sometimes that can be more seductive to certain women than a good job and income can be

 

[Isildur1]

It is better to be a guy who doesn't have his shiit together and getting laid than the opposite. The opposite is a guy who seems to be a solid citizen but is struggling with women. There are plenty of men who earn a good living (something like $75,000 - $130,000/year) and barely get any attention from women.

Women Don't Want a Semi-Successful Man

Men in this category, $75k-$125k salary, relatively in shape, drive a good car, has a few hobbies, women do not want. Why? Because this man has standards. Women do not want to work for their men. Women of today want a simp or a millionaire. Simple as that. This is what society aka social media...

www.sosuave.net

definitely see that a lot in London - I used to attend Tom Torero meet-ups and some of the guys who struggled the most were actually men with good careers for these men pursuing pua was mentally too much of a burden for themselves and the mental workload of putting themselves out there was too much - I winged one guy who was a dentist the other a chartered accountant - both impressive on paper but having a good career doesn't mean you're going to make it good in the dating world

for some loser men it was actually a lot easier - they were already losers and approached women with nothing to lose a lot of these men outdid the successful career men because they had the right attitude and work ethic towards the craft itself.

Again one of my worst wingmen in London was actually a male model who I daygamed with as for him the rejections hit harder as he wasn't used to women saying no to him - for him the mental burden of being told "no" consistently during sessions was too much for him - but for the relatively "loser " wingmen I had they were already used to the nos so there was no real mental burden that came with rejection for them

 

[Manure Spherian]

honestly you walk around London you see a lot of male 8s and 9s dating female 5s who think they are the **** in reality they are just living in a city where the sexual market favours them

My brother who lived in London has a tonne of value-6 ft , successful author , multi millionaire etc. the best he managed to date was a single mother off tinder - hoeflation is real - the biggest issue for him was he saw pua as creepy and never really made active effort to approach women consistently as he saw puas as creeps - I think the common misconceptions men have over what consistent approaching can do for them is understated and I don't think the red pill helps - looking back I don't think more "value" or smv would've helped my brother but pua approaching and consistency would've done him a world of good. again each person's situation is different

He might have been better off as a drug-using, tattooed couch surfer.

 

[Isildur1]

He might have been better off as a drug-using, tattooed couch surfer.

its an interesting divide when some men in the west look down on pua but the reality is pua skills might be the thing they themselves need the most to thrive in the sexual marketplace

 

[GoodMan32]

I am not talking about criminals; I am talking about low ambition men with unskilled labor jobs or guys in social status/clout jobs.

1. They have a much larger dating pool than successful men because they have nothing to lose. Any girl in the social ladder is available to him, while an Engineer has to date women within a few Standard Deviations of him. Yes, he could date the Mcdonalds fry cook, but that would be a disaster, or he could date some Boss Babe CEO, but she would never see him as an equal or superior.

2. They don't have personal responsibilities or some job expectations to hold them back. You ever notice how Boss Babes date guys like Travis Barker or Jesse Pinkman haha? These are the bad boy toys for grown women.

Travis Barker has a net worth of $50 million (and is extremely busy with his businesses as well as his career in the biggest pop punk band of all time).

Yeah, Travis totally has a bad boy appearance/demeanor. But at the same time, he's a career man/CEO.

If a boss babe CEO will never view an engineer as an equal, she'd certainly never view a low-earning man as an equal.

 

[GoodMan32]

He might have been better off as a drug-using, tattooed couch surfer.

I have one hidden tat.

I wonder if going all out with tattoos would help my chances with the ladies.

 

[GoodMan32]

honestly you walk around London you see a lot of male 8s and 9s dating female 5s who think they are the **** in reality they are just living in a city where the sexual market favours them

My brother who lived in London has a tonne of value-6 ft , successful author , multi millionaire etc. the best he managed to date was a single mother off tinder - hoeflation is real - the biggest issue for him was he saw pua as creepy and never really made active effort to approach women consistently as he saw puas as creeps - I think the common misconceptions men have over what consistent approaching can do for them is understated and I don't think the red pill helps - looking back I don't think more "value" or smv would've helped my brother but pua approaching and consistency would've done him a world of good. again each person's situation is different

I've had a woman I tried pickup artistry on compare me to Jeffrey Dahmer.

When that's the reception you get when you try pickup artistry, it's easy to feel like a creep.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

I wonder if going all out with tattoos would help my chances with the ladies.

Nope. Wouldn't be congruent with your demeanour. What would help with the ladies you already know but cannot apply because of your panic attacks. Tattoos will not compensate for incel behaviour. You should do martial arts and become a biker first.

 

[AmsterdamAssassin]

I've had a woman I tried pickup artistry on compare me to Jeffrey Dahmer.

Jeff was gay. He targeted young gay males.
And he got a sh*tload of love letters from women while incarcerated. Hybristophilia is not a joke.
Plus he messed with the wrong inmates and got a violent ending in the showers.

You just look like a dork.

 

[Solomon]

I think the community over rates “game” and under rates career, status and physique.

You can have zero “game” but have a solid career and look good and you’ll do immeasurably better than someone you describe.

Do we really think a doctor would lose out to a delivery drivers because the driver negged the girl? LOL

In your 20s most women don't care about your career like that because everyone is young and trying to grind or figure it out unless you're dealing with a particular kind of woman i.e. worried about status, golddigger, etc

However, in your 30s that's when it changes, in another thread Jesse Pinkman was talking about PUA guys in their 30s working low-entry jobs and staying with their parents. Game will maybe allow you to go on dates, and bang a chick for a couple of months. However the older you get the more your career and living situation matters. This is where I would say if you 35+ living at home or living in the trailer parks or a bad area it can affect your prospects and options. Most women will judge you on your place even if you have your own place, if her place is nicer than yours or not up to par you can lose women that way as well speaking from personal experience. IMO this where money can be a game-changer in regards to logistics. Women won't know if you're making an average income, rich, or broke, but they can gauge an idea by where you live, the type of car you drive etc.

A guy living with his parents isn't an attractive prospect for most women, similar to a fat women isn't an attractive prospect to most men

 

[characternote]

In your 20s most women don't care about your career like that because everyone is young and trying to grind or figure it out unless you're dealing with a particular kind of woman i.e. worried about status, golddigger, etc

However, in your 30s that's when it changes, in another thread Jesse Pinkman was talking about PUA guys in their 30s working low-entry jobs and staying with their parents. Game will maybe allow you to go on dates, and bang a chick for a couple of months. However the older you get the more your career and living situation matters. This is where I would say if you 35+ living at home or living in the trailer parks or a bad area it can affect your prospects and options. Most women will judge you on your place even if you have your own place, if her place is nicer than yours or not up to par you can lose women that way as well speaking from personal experience. IMO this where money can be a game-changer in regards to logistics. Women won't know if you're making an average income, rich, or broke, but they can gauge an idea by where you live, the type of car you drive etc.

A guy living with his parents isn't an attractive prospect for most women, similar to a fat women isn't an attractive prospect to most men

basically true.
As I've mentioned before, I had one of my hottest spells (in terms of getting laid with lots of hot young girls) a few year back when I was unemployed. I had 'some' savings, and was going out most nights and hitting on every hot girl under 22. I also went travelling by myself too a few countries like Hungary where I stayed in a 'party hostel' full of teenage girls and again banged my fair share of young girls.

I've always said that not 'having your life handled' isn't really an excused for not getting laid. It's only an excuse for not being able to get into relationships or hold one down. But a very hot young girl will bang you if she thinks you are very good looking or whatever, even if you are broke and living with your parents and have no intentions of never not being broke or moving out lol. Just don't expect her to stick around too long