The new archetype Roman( the average guy that has trouble finding women)
- Thread starter Gamisch
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Gamisch
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By @sangheilios I agree and I feel that the biggest issue that most men face in the dating world is due to scarcity or the perception of it. Some of this is legitimately based on reality. Imagine a man that is otherwise successful and well put together but yet struggles with the dating world. It may not even have anything to do with how he looks, his social skills, etc.
Let's say we have Roman, he graduated from college with a degree in electrical engineering and he works at some company like Raytheon. Roman is in a male dominated career that he makes good money at and overall does well for himself. Roman takes care of himself, maybe he likes hiking or goes to the gym or likes to play pickup basketball games. He has a couple male friends he hangs out with, maybe they have a football night at his place or play poker or go bowling, etc. However, the problem for Roman is that he never is really around women. He may see some when he is out shopping for groceries, but that's not neccessarily all that often and it may not even be a realistic scenario for him to capitalize on. He's not really into nightlife so he's basically left with OLD apps. Apps suck for men, so he may get some matches here and there, often from women legitimately below him, and he could go a very long time with no success. However, when he does land a date or find someone he's been experiencing thirst for so long that he behaves in a way that comes across as too intense, which naturally scares her off. This isn't because Roman is a pyscho or needs to see a damn therapist, it's because subconciously he is aware that if it doesn't work out with this one woman in particular he may go months or even years before another opportunity arises. He is also very likely to repeat this same pattern with another woman if he is not aware of these feelings.
This is the reality for many men post college and in the professional world.
Let's say we have Roman, he graduated from college with a degree in electrical engineering and he works at some company like Raytheon. Roman is in a male dominated career that he makes good money at and overall does well for himself. Roman takes care of himself, maybe he likes hiking or goes to the gym or likes to play pickup basketball games. He has a couple male friends he hangs out with, maybe they have a football night at his place or play poker or go bowling, etc. However, the problem for Roman is that he never is really around women. He may see some when he is out shopping for groceries, but that's not neccessarily all that often and it may not even be a realistic scenario for him to capitalize on. He's not really into nightlife so he's basically left with OLD apps. Apps suck for men, so he may get some matches here and there, often from women legitimately below him, and he could go a very long time with no success. However, when he does land a date or find someone he's been experiencing thirst for so long that he behaves in a way that comes across as too intense, which naturally scares her off. This isn't because Roman is a pyscho or needs to see a damn therapist, it's because subconciously he is aware that if it doesn't work out with this one woman in particular he may go months or even years before another opportunity arises. He is also very likely to repeat this same pattern with another woman if he is not aware of these feelings.
This is the reality for many men post college and in the professional world.
Gamisch
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By @SW15 :
I think the Roman story is a good story with a basis in reality.
In that story, Roman's day-to-day activities stink. In terms of his day-to-day life, he's not putting himself around enough women. That's neither a problem with scarcity mentality nor is it a necessarily a problem with being a "nice guy" or beta male.
Roman could be approaching at the grocery store, at the mall, his gym, etc. With daygame, a guy like Roman would need to use multiple forms of it.
You'd also have to consider his social circle. Does he have a local younger sister or local similarly aged female cousins to help him out with introductions? I've known guys with girlfriends who would have been incel/borderline incel without sister introductions. Could he do a weak social circle option and join a co-ed sports league?
A guy like Roman would really need to examine his day-to-day activities and make significant changes. He'd need to run multiple game streams too.
I think the Roman story is a good story with a basis in reality.
In that story, Roman's day-to-day activities stink. In terms of his day-to-day life, he's not putting himself around enough women. That's neither a problem with scarcity mentality nor is it a necessarily a problem with being a "nice guy" or beta male.
Roman could be approaching at the grocery store, at the mall, his gym, etc. With daygame, a guy like Roman would need to use multiple forms of it.
You'd also have to consider his social circle. Does he have a local younger sister or local similarly aged female cousins to help him out with introductions? I've known guys with girlfriends who would have been incel/borderline incel without sister introductions. Could he do a weak social circle option and join a co-ed sports league?
A guy like Roman would really need to examine his day-to-day activities and make significant changes. He'd need to run multiple game streams too.
Gamisch
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By @Jake_Gyllenhaal69 :
Lets say Roman meets a girl while playing poker night by random chance. The girl has some interest in Roman because he is sort of her type and he has a decent job. Roman is excited because finally a cute girl is interested in him. Roman asks her out on a date and she says yes. The date is meh, but Roman thinks it went pretty well. He tries to get her out on a second date, but the girl keeps either flaking or coming up with excuses. Roman texts her a lot and has another chance with her at a Poker night. He doesn't do anything, but Roman thinks he is getting closer and closer. Roman decides to bite the bullet and ask her to be his GF. She says that she isn't looking for a relationship right now and Roman buys the excuse. Later down the road, Roman finds out she is fvcking another guy and devastates Roman. Roman goes on the internet and they say that Roman lost the girl because he was a beta male nice guy and that girls only like bad boys.
Reflection: Roman did not lose this girl because he was a beta nice guy. He lost this girl because he was inexperienced with women and invested too much time into a girl with lukewarm interest. Unfortunately, Roman has been poisoned and led down a rabbit hole of some sort.
Lets say Roman meets a girl while playing poker night by random chance. The girl has some interest in Roman because he is sort of her type and he has a decent job. Roman is excited because finally a cute girl is interested in him. Roman asks her out on a date and she says yes. The date is meh, but Roman thinks it went pretty well. He tries to get her out on a second date, but the girl keeps either flaking or coming up with excuses. Roman texts her a lot and has another chance with her at a Poker night. He doesn't do anything, but Roman thinks he is getting closer and closer. Roman decides to bite the bullet and ask her to be his GF. She says that she isn't looking for a relationship right now and Roman buys the excuse. Later down the road, Roman finds out she is fvcking another guy and devastates Roman. Roman goes on the internet and they say that Roman lost the girl because he was a beta male nice guy and that girls only like bad boys.
Reflection: Roman did not lose this girl because he was a beta nice guy. He lost this girl because he was inexperienced with women and invested too much time into a girl with lukewarm interest. Unfortunately, Roman has been poisoned and led down a rabbit hole of some sort.
Gamisch
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By me:
This Roman dude deserves his own thread. I think every man at some point been a Roman. That's when you wake up and decide to do thing differently.
Nevertheless, a Roman type of guy should always be prepared and open to meet women. Chest up, head high. Well dressed and groomed at any time. Be fit. Antennas must be fully operational at all times . Force interactions by going to festivals with a bunch of cool people. Visit other city's and events and be at places where people gather. Play sport in the park with friends. Greet people and do small talk when possible. Ofcourse be active on OLD.
The mythical Chad and Tyrone somehow always manage to be there where all these women are. The Roman type of guy sits at home too much , stuck in his routine and should have a critical look in the mirror and see if he shouldn't say " yes" more often.
This Roman dude deserves his own thread. I think every man at some point been a Roman. That's when you wake up and decide to do thing differently.
Nevertheless, a Roman type of guy should always be prepared and open to meet women. Chest up, head high. Well dressed and groomed at any time. Be fit. Antennas must be fully operational at all times . Force interactions by going to festivals with a bunch of cool people. Visit other city's and events and be at places where people gather. Play sport in the park with friends. Greet people and do small talk when possible. Ofcourse be active on OLD.
The mythical Chad and Tyrone somehow always manage to be there where all these women are. The Roman type of guy sits at home too much , stuck in his routine and should have a critical look in the mirror and see if he shouldn't say " yes" more often.
Gamisch
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And the gem that made me do this: by @Stanley :
I feel like Roman is a new word to the Sosuave vernacular @sangheilios.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Roman
The everyman who is by all accounts normal, but lacks social interaction with women. He isn't ugly. He isn't poor. He isn't a psychopath. He isn't incompetent. He is normal and is dealing with the typical experiences had by most adult men in the western world. At some point Roman will hopefully remove the wool from his eyes and give himself a kick in the a** to accept the way things are... then adapt and change around them to better serve himself. No one will help Roman but himself. Roman isn't necessarily AFC, Incel, black pill, MGTOW or any variation but he very well could be... All it takes is the desire to change and make a concerted effort to level up and break out of his comfort zone and Roman is no more. Roman exists on the precipice of success and failure in a volatile state teetering between the two. On one side there exists the chump who bemoans how horrible the modern dating world is and gives up in his pursuit of the other sex. The other side accepts the nature of things and embraces reality and faces it head on. He who accepts the trials and tribulations of the modern era with a smile moves to greater things and leaves Romanhood behind.
Roman must recognize and take inventory of himself. What is he good at? What are his skill sets? How does he look? How does he stack up? He must also ask himself with painful honesty, Where do I lack? What don't I have that others do? Am I using my time efficiently? Am I being incongruent with the man I want to become??? And so forth. Inward self reflection is the catalyst for growth and change for better or worse. Perhaps Roman realizes on paper that he isn't so bad? Heck! to some he might even be a catch... but the problem lies in that Roman has no exposure to the opposite sex. He spends his days diligently working his male dominated 9-5 where his social interaction pertains to what Netflix show the guys are watching around the water jug. He then goes about his normal routine and goes to bed only to repeat again the following day. Roman is stuck in the prototypical cycle that many men naturally plug into after academia. He's on board the rat race which only serves to solidify his 'normal-ness'. One day Roman reaches the conclusion that things aren't what they 'should' be and he needs to enact change. (This often comes after trauma or getting his head played with.) It is from that point forward Roman must decide what he wants out of life and what he wants out of women.
Does he want some curvaceous babe who's 'out of his league'? Well then perhaps Roman needs to take inventory and see what he can do to level himself up to get that HB. Learn game? Absolutely! Make more money? Certainly! Money is freedom and with freedom comes options. Put on some muscle and dress to impress? Why wouldn't Roman do that! Such an easy thing like elevating your wardrobe only seeks to serve you and steeling yourself in the gym through iron discipline is a win-win in every facet of a man's life! Roman is surrounded by men all day, yet he wants the ladies. Logistics! First step in getting the ladies is being around them! Breaking down social barriers and being comfortable in one's own skin comes with a concerted effort. If Roman is to overcome his FEELINGS of scarcity he must surround himself in an abundance of women regardless of his relationship with them. He could resort to fishing the OLD pond, but unless he's got the top gear and is a naturally accomplished fisherman he's wasting his time. Roman isn't an angler! He spends his days working in an office! He might catch a couple bluegill, but he wants a trout!
Roman is a muted off white subway tile. You do not notice him, he is not seen. He remains in line with all the other subway tiles firmly held in place by the grout... The grout which holds him in place is society and its expectations of men. Roman decided like many to do what's expected of him and always do the 'right' thing. Roman was sold a lie which led him to where he is now. He "did all the right things", yet he is unhappy and invisible to most people, not only women... Roman is surrounded by numerous other Romans who look just as he does. However, there exist subway tiles with other attributes which make them noticeable. The tile with chips and cracks. The pristine and pearly white tile far out of reach. That one tile with the 7 year old gum stuck to it... There are outliers and there are qualities that set them apart both good and bad.
The man with scorn directed towards women and society feels as though he has been dealt a bad hand is a man easily seen. He wears a proud chip on his shoulder and spends his time whining about how 'bad' things are and personalizes it. This man will place blame on everything and everyone but himself. He 'interprets' statistics and uses them as a tool to illustrate and rationalize the way he feels. A woman of quality and self esteem does not want him. On the other hand we have the man that recognized how things are, accepted them and then adapted to them! This man leveled himself up in every way possible and took the hand he was dealt and owned it. This man views comfort as a cage and is in an ever constant state of self improvement which people find attractive. He is not a whiner.
Roman COULD be any degree of these men.... or he could remain a Roman for the rest of his life. It is up to Roman to think independently, critically and honestly about who he is and who he wants to become. Most men are at some point in their life a Roman and have yet to accept or even acknowledge the burden of performance.
How about a pertinent quote from the greatest Roman from two millennia ago?
“Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.”
-Marcus Aurelius
I feel like Roman is a new word to the Sosuave vernacular @sangheilios.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Roman
The everyman who is by all accounts normal, but lacks social interaction with women. He isn't ugly. He isn't poor. He isn't a psychopath. He isn't incompetent. He is normal and is dealing with the typical experiences had by most adult men in the western world. At some point Roman will hopefully remove the wool from his eyes and give himself a kick in the a** to accept the way things are... then adapt and change around them to better serve himself. No one will help Roman but himself. Roman isn't necessarily AFC, Incel, black pill, MGTOW or any variation but he very well could be... All it takes is the desire to change and make a concerted effort to level up and break out of his comfort zone and Roman is no more. Roman exists on the precipice of success and failure in a volatile state teetering between the two. On one side there exists the chump who bemoans how horrible the modern dating world is and gives up in his pursuit of the other sex. The other side accepts the nature of things and embraces reality and faces it head on. He who accepts the trials and tribulations of the modern era with a smile moves to greater things and leaves Romanhood behind.
Roman must recognize and take inventory of himself. What is he good at? What are his skill sets? How does he look? How does he stack up? He must also ask himself with painful honesty, Where do I lack? What don't I have that others do? Am I using my time efficiently? Am I being incongruent with the man I want to become??? And so forth. Inward self reflection is the catalyst for growth and change for better or worse. Perhaps Roman realizes on paper that he isn't so bad? Heck! to some he might even be a catch... but the problem lies in that Roman has no exposure to the opposite sex. He spends his days diligently working his male dominated 9-5 where his social interaction pertains to what Netflix show the guys are watching around the water jug. He then goes about his normal routine and goes to bed only to repeat again the following day. Roman is stuck in the prototypical cycle that many men naturally plug into after academia. He's on board the rat race which only serves to solidify his 'normal-ness'. One day Roman reaches the conclusion that things aren't what they 'should' be and he needs to enact change. (This often comes after trauma or getting his head played with.) It is from that point forward Roman must decide what he wants out of life and what he wants out of women.
Does he want some curvaceous babe who's 'out of his league'? Well then perhaps Roman needs to take inventory and see what he can do to level himself up to get that HB. Learn game? Absolutely! Make more money? Certainly! Money is freedom and with freedom comes options. Put on some muscle and dress to impress? Why wouldn't Roman do that! Such an easy thing like elevating your wardrobe only seeks to serve you and steeling yourself in the gym through iron discipline is a win-win in every facet of a man's life! Roman is surrounded by men all day, yet he wants the ladies. Logistics! First step in getting the ladies is being around them! Breaking down social barriers and being comfortable in one's own skin comes with a concerted effort. If Roman is to overcome his FEELINGS of scarcity he must surround himself in an abundance of women regardless of his relationship with them. He could resort to fishing the OLD pond, but unless he's got the top gear and is a naturally accomplished fisherman he's wasting his time. Roman isn't an angler! He spends his days working in an office! He might catch a couple bluegill, but he wants a trout!
Roman is a muted off white subway tile. You do not notice him, he is not seen. He remains in line with all the other subway tiles firmly held in place by the grout... The grout which holds him in place is society and its expectations of men. Roman decided like many to do what's expected of him and always do the 'right' thing. Roman was sold a lie which led him to where he is now. He "did all the right things", yet he is unhappy and invisible to most people, not only women... Roman is surrounded by numerous other Romans who look just as he does. However, there exist subway tiles with other attributes which make them noticeable. The tile with chips and cracks. The pristine and pearly white tile far out of reach. That one tile with the 7 year old gum stuck to it... There are outliers and there are qualities that set them apart both good and bad.
The man with scorn directed towards women and society feels as though he has been dealt a bad hand is a man easily seen. He wears a proud chip on his shoulder and spends his time whining about how 'bad' things are and personalizes it. This man will place blame on everything and everyone but himself. He 'interprets' statistics and uses them as a tool to illustrate and rationalize the way he feels. A woman of quality and self esteem does not want him. On the other hand we have the man that recognized how things are, accepted them and then adapted to them! This man leveled himself up in every way possible and took the hand he was dealt and owned it. This man views comfort as a cage and is in an ever constant state of self improvement which people find attractive. He is not a whiner.
Roman COULD be any degree of these men.... or he could remain a Roman for the rest of his life. It is up to Roman to think independently, critically and honestly about who he is and who he wants to become. Most men are at some point in their life a Roman and have yet to accept or even acknowledge the burden of performance.
How about a pertinent quote from the greatest Roman from two millennia ago?
“Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.”
-Marcus Aurelius
BackInTheGame78
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Most guys that have issues online with women lack social abilities or don't know how to transition the woman properly from message to meet up.
Those are skills, and just like anything else it takes time to develop, especially if you are not blowing women away with your looks from the get go.
I don't get how people can have such a hard time on the apps or with OLD in general, it's literally the easiest thing of all time in terms of meeting and fvcking women.
Basically there are 2 main things.
First, it's a numbers game. Period. Sending 3 messages out and then crying that you got no responses doesn't make much sense. If you are not willing to send out enough messages, aka do the work, then you won't get anywhere. Sorry, you have to put some effort into it like anything else. People looking for the easy fix aren't going to find it here.
Second, the goal is to meet in person not endlessly message. Too many guys try and drag out the messaging way too long. Most people are not good with this to begin with and run the risk of her losing interest due to lame/boring topics you are messaging her about or due to you saying something she doesn't like...and since you don't really know her at all there are a LOT of potential landmines there. I would recommend asking for her number/meet up within the first 5 messages back and forth.
Those are skills, and just like anything else it takes time to develop, especially if you are not blowing women away with your looks from the get go.
I don't get how people can have such a hard time on the apps or with OLD in general, it's literally the easiest thing of all time in terms of meeting and fvcking women.
Basically there are 2 main things.
First, it's a numbers game. Period. Sending 3 messages out and then crying that you got no responses doesn't make much sense. If you are not willing to send out enough messages, aka do the work, then you won't get anywhere. Sorry, you have to put some effort into it like anything else. People looking for the easy fix aren't going to find it here.
Second, the goal is to meet in person not endlessly message. Too many guys try and drag out the messaging way too long. Most people are not good with this to begin with and run the risk of her losing interest due to lame/boring topics you are messaging her about or due to you saying something she doesn't like...and since you don't really know her at all there are a LOT of potential landmines there. I would recommend asking for her number/meet up within the first 5 messages back and forth.
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SW15
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As humans, we weren't meant to meet other humans for romantic purposes from behind an electronic screen. This is why it is best to take electronic screens out of the equation. 30-40 years ago, men would have said to eliminate the landline telephone as much as possible.
I do think that Roman would be an Average Frustrated Chump (AFC) at best.
A lot of guys do a lot of decent things in life and are ignored by women. There are plenty of men who get a degree (bachelor's or advanced) or a trade certification and are employed in decent jobs. Despite the educational achievement and employment, these men are still invisible to women. That is very frustrating to them. This is a legitimate feeling.
I do think that Roman would be an Average Frustrated Chump (AFC) at best.
A lot of guys do a lot of decent things in life and are ignored by women. There are plenty of men who get a degree (bachelor's or advanced) or a trade certification and are employed in decent jobs. Despite the educational achievement and employment, these men are still invisible to women. That is very frustrating to them. This is a legitimate feeling.
Dr.Suave
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So the food chain goes something like this:
Honorable mentions: The guy who alpha widow-ed her and /or the guy at the top her Desdinovas High score List Theory.
1.- Chad Thunderc0ck / Celebrities
AAA.- Chad/Tyrone with money AND status but not as much money and status as celebrities.
AA.- Chad/Tyrone with money or status
A.- Chad/Tyrone
B.- Chad Light
C.- The average SoSuave Member
D.- Roman
E.- McLovin
F.- Incels
Feel free to edit your own version.
Honorable mentions: The guy who alpha widow-ed her and /or the guy at the top her Desdinovas High score List Theory.
1.- Chad Thunderc0ck / Celebrities
AAA.- Chad/Tyrone with money AND status but not as much money and status as celebrities.
AA.- Chad/Tyrone with money or status
A.- Chad/Tyrone
B.- Chad Light
C.- The average SoSuave Member
D.- Roman
E.- McLovin
F.- Incels
Feel free to edit your own version.
Roman is above movers so suave members , so Roman a C
Bokanovsky
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Who is this Tyrone guy? I always found that category confusing. Is he more like Tyre Nichols or the cops who beat the sh!t out of Tyre Nichols? Is there such a thing as "Tyrone light"?
SW15
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Tyrone is supposed to be the Black Chad.
Bokanovsky
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What about the Hispanic Chad? Asian Chad? Indian Chad? It's a bit confusing that one minority gets its own "Chad" while other do not.
SW15
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I didn't make up the terms. I don't use "Chad" often as I prefer to describe men as "top tier", "X range percentile", or "elite"
Dr.Suave
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The Mexican Chad is Juan Camaney
BackInTheGame78
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People spend way too much time worrying about other people and not enough time worrying about themselves. Anything outside of you is outside of your control and so it makes no sense to worry about what they have, what they are doing, who they are dating, who they are banging, etc
BillyPilgrim
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To what degree does Roman find meaning in his world? How does he react to the monotony? Is Roman an existentialist, an escapist, or an NPC? Will Roman turn into Kevin Spacey from American Beauty? or go full MGTOW? I can see Roman being on the verge of an existential crisis.
BillyPilgrim
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Roman is also the name of a company that sells Viagra online. Don't ask me how I know.
Gamisch
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Roman is fine as long as he doesnt go through too drastic changes in his life such as moving to a other city or doing time.
The combination of social circle , young/ decent looking face /body and a bit of naivety about dating will make sure Roman doesn't even notice his future problems. From age 16 to 30 he will have some LTR's, some fwb and even a sporadically a ONS with a town bicycle.
Roman's smv isnt always clear. Could be anywhere between 3 and 8. Probably declines from 8-6 to a lower number over time. This archetype came to existence due @Jake_Gyllenhaal69 's thread. At some point Roman will face his first long dryspell with no end in sight. His friends will get kids, marry, and have less time for " boys nights out", thus his routine of life will become stagnant.
He never practiced spam approach, and relies on OLD to meet women. After something like age 30 his lack of experience with women will start to work against him. The little mojo he had going on in his twenties is gone now, and nobody seems to care he doesn't have a role in the dating environment.
When he does move away from his hometown or something mayor ,life changing happens he wont have a social circle to fall back on and it will accelerate his problems.
I havent read the whole thing but yh scarcity is a big issue.
The problem is that men and women are not socialising much. For most guys they have little social interaction.
But in a natural tribal human/animal society there is more natural interaction between men and women.
But modern women are using simple social interaction to 'game' men to the point that for alot of scenarios if women even talk to men it is seen as a win for the guy.
So yh there is a big problem of women acting like even socialising or talking to men is giving away some power or something of value.
Women themselves lose due to this negative attitude.
That is the problem also with cold approach, a guy is going out of his way to be nice or sociallise with women and interact and the women often react too negatively ie arrogantly.
Its like often times women will simply pull away from social interaction as a form of power play or negoitiation and this is just going too far.
Half the pop in the world is women. As guys we are.simply not able to interact and socialise with women without going down to dating concepts like apps, cold-approach etc.
Most of us had the most amount of female interaction in school or univ after which point it just dries up and social circles arent big enough or stable enough to provide that interaction.
So the whole social system in the modern world needs to change and form around commumities and social circles where men and women can interact without it being some kind of win for the guy.
The coldness and game-playing strategy used by women is only leading them to a dead end of failure and anxiety.
The problem is that men and women are not socialising much. For most guys they have little social interaction.
But in a natural tribal human/animal society there is more natural interaction between men and women.
But modern women are using simple social interaction to 'game' men to the point that for alot of scenarios if women even talk to men it is seen as a win for the guy.
So yh there is a big problem of women acting like even socialising or talking to men is giving away some power or something of value.
Women themselves lose due to this negative attitude.
That is the problem also with cold approach, a guy is going out of his way to be nice or sociallise with women and interact and the women often react too negatively ie arrogantly.
Its like often times women will simply pull away from social interaction as a form of power play or negoitiation and this is just going too far.
Half the pop in the world is women. As guys we are.simply not able to interact and socialise with women without going down to dating concepts like apps, cold-approach etc.
Most of us had the most amount of female interaction in school or univ after which point it just dries up and social circles arent big enough or stable enough to provide that interaction.
So the whole social system in the modern world needs to change and form around commumities and social circles where men and women can interact without it being some kind of win for the guy.
The coldness and game-playing strategy used by women is only leading them to a dead end of failure and anxiety.
