Wife cheated on me....need advice.

[Milano]

Its horrible when you are in the midst of it, and you are deeper than most of us with kids in a pretty long relationship as well. You literally have to rewire parts of your brain when something life changing like this happens.

Now you can get a woman to suck your d1ck and even treat you like a man. Im sure you dont even remember how it feels but it is possible!

 

[sazc]

I just wanted to see if there was anyone who saved their marriage after killing their beta and making some changes. There are other options aside from staying and putting up with her crap or leaving asap. I already moved to another room, and I could stay and just do my own thing until I'm ready to leave. I obviously can't continue with the way things were, and she knows that. I even offered her an open marriage just to see what she'd say, and she told me that she wants to stay married and she doesn't want anyone else. The troubling thing is that her actions don't match her words, and she doesn't seem to be trying. When I spoke about one of my kids being disabled, I should have said that it's of a nature that a divorce would exacerbate her behavioral problems. I have up my mind and I did talk to a divorce attorney, but I need some time to get organized before I leave, and I also don't want to just give her the house by default. In the meantime there is a slim chance for her to pull off a miracle if she did a 180 and put on 200% effort.

do not simply move out. in some states this is considered abandoning the property and it's contents, and it becomes all hers. make sure your legal ducks are in a row

good luck

 

[The_Real_Batman]

You're right.....I'd probably tell a friend to get out. It's interesting to see almost everyone is saying the same, as I thought there'd be a few guys saying I could still recover the marraige. I suspect that it's much worse than I know about, as she's only admitted to things if I confront her with irrefutable evidence, and even then she's defensive. I think she doesn't want to lose me because I'm better with the kids than she is, I take care of the house and yard, I'm good to her, and I watch the kids while she's away on business (16 weeks last year at different 5 star hotels).

I always thought I was alpha, as I'm dominant in a modest/laid back way, but now I realize that I've shown her weakness in the past by allowing this behavior to continue. I also internalized my pain by getting depressed after I kept catching her. I resorted to trying to escape from it rather than confront the issues and make hard choices. I know the reality is that she probably won't change. She's going to see a psycholigist now to "help" her figure out why she did it, but I recently told her that she doesn't need a therapist for that, as she did it because it's what she wanted to do. This wasn't a drunken one night stand, or two people who fall for each other after seeing each other frequently. This was a guy she sought out and "gamed" for sex by telling him she was in a ****ty marraige. She tried to excuse her sexts by saying that she did it for her self esteem, but sexting a divorced male like that is akin to throwing steak in front of a wolf. Of course he's going to bite. The affair itself, the ongoing lies, the neglect for over 2 years, and her lack of effort are telling. I was hoping that there was some way to use "red pill" thinking to turn it around, but it's probably too late for that, as you've all advised me. I'll stay just to get my **** together and make an escape plan, as I know there are attractive women who would go above and beyond to be with me. Regardless, I can't let my happiness be based upon my relationships with women.....

That's also very true about me just moving out, as I'm basically abandoning the house and giving it to her. It sucks, but I may have to cohabitate with her for the time being....

 

[The_Real_Batman]

Its horrible when you are in the midst of it, and you are deeper than most of us with kids in a pretty long relationship as well. You literally have to rewire parts of your brain when something life changing like this happens.

Now you can get a woman to suck your d1ck and even treat you like a man. Im sure you dont even remember how it feels but it is possible!

I know there many more women that have more to offer, as I've had attractive women tell me that my wife is absolutely crazy, as they'd be ripping my clothes off every night. My wife told me that she's jealous of me because I'm in shape, and that some of the stuff that she did was acting out when she was mad at me (like sending that guy pictures). I've never competed with her or made her feel jealous, and I've always given her attention, so there was no reason for her to go outside the relationship.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

I know there many more women that have more to offer, as I've had attractive women tell me that my wife is absolutely crazy, as they'd be ripping my clothes off every night. My wife told me that she's jealous of me because I'm in shape, and that some of the stuff that she did was acting out when she was mad at me (like sending that guy pictures). I've never competed with her or made her feel jealous, and I've always given her attention, so there was no reason for her to go outside the relationship.

Sometimes they cheat you to "beat" you. You could've been supportive, loving and all but they HAVE to feel "better" than you.

 

[The_Real_Batman]

I think part of the reason she cheated and neglected me was to get back at me in some way. I also think she "cheated down" with a less attractive guy in order to make herself feel more attractive. It was very deliberate and calculated, and she had plenty of opportunities to stop after I kept catching her and we got in fights over it. I also agree that she may be setting me up, as she's claimed that she's afraid of me despite the fact that I never have and never would lay a finger on her. She knows how to push my buttons though, and one time I pushed a chair out of the way, and the next day one of my kids was looking at the pictures on my wife's IPad and I saw that she had taken a picture of the chair. She claimed that she took the picture to send to me, but I'm not sure why she'd do that. I wouldn't doubt that she has her own plan should I file for divorce, as she already told me that I won't get a dime and I won't see my kids.

Another problem is that she makes more than twice as much as me, and she controls all the finances as a result. I have CC bills which I pay with my own account, and a lawyer told me that I have to pay them off before I do anything, as a divorce is going to cost $10k minimum in legal fees, $30k if it's messy. She can easily out spend me and hire the best lawyer. She's actually put us in a position where we have to depend on her salary to pay the bills (she pushed to buy a bigger house, she's the one who really wanted kids where I was ambivalent, although I wouldn't trade them for the world now). What I mean is that she's created a situation where I'm basically held hostage and have no freedom of action. If we get divorced I'll end up moving to a small apartment in a town with a worse school system, so she'll probably end up getting custody despite the fact that I'm better with the kids. She could afford our house by herself, but she couldn't do all the work to maintain it, and she'd have a very difficult time with the kids by herself, not to mention that she'd have to hire someone to take care of them with her frequent "business" trips.

One of my male friends actually told me to stay in the same house, move to a separate room (which I've done), and just do my own thing, as that way our kids can still see both of us. I could probably do that short term, but it's bound to cause friction, as I'm sure she'd be even more jealous if I was seeing other women. There's no easy way out if this, and I'll have to deal with her the rest of my life in one form or another, as our disabled child will need lifelong care.

 

[Desdinova]

I think part of the reason she cheated and neglected me was to get back at me in some way.

No. She just didn't feel attraction for you anymore. Whether that's because you've lacked confidence, leadership, or a backbone, I have no clue. Women will gravitate toward another man when he's more fun and interesting than the man she's currently with.

I also think she "cheated down" with a less attractive guy in order to make herself feel more attractive.

Women don't date down to feel more attractive. If anything, she believed she was dating someone better than you. I don't mean to make you feel bad here, but that's likely how she perceived it.

Honestly, I don't think that bytch has the ability to be in a stable relationship with ANYBODY whether it be you or any of the guys she's fvcked around with. Once a woman has had a good ride on the c0ck carousel, they keep going back for more until their fat ass is over the weight limit.

t was very deliberate and calculated

Women don't calculate anything. They do what they feel like doing and then try to figure out how to cover up the skeletons later.

I have CC bills which I pay with my own account, and a lawyer told me that I have to pay them off before I do anything, as a divorce is going to cost $10k minimum in legal fees, $30k if it's messy.

If you have a lawyer who's putting a price on the divorce, fire him. There is no way to tell how much it's going to cost. The less bickering you do with her, the faster it will go and the easier and cheaper it will be.

If we get divorced I'll end up moving to a small apartment in a town with a worse school system, so she'll probably end up getting custody despite the fact that I'm better with the kids.

As long as you're looking for something fair when it comes to the kids, you can get them for at least half the time.

The problem is you're speculating and driving yourself fvcking crazy. You really cannot predict what your divorce is going to be like. Get it through your head what you absolutely want to retain from your marriage, and make sure you stick with that. If the only thing you really want is to get your kids for at least half the time, then focus on that. Be prepared to make sacrifices in other areas to get what you really want. The more you two battle about stupid 5hit like pets or kitchen appliances, the more expensive it will be.

I'm going to say this... Getting the hell out of a relationship when you're constantly being fvcked around on is going to do wonders for your self-esteem and confidence. The trip there is going to be turbulent, but afterwards you're going to be thankful you got rid of that dripping wh0re bag you've been married to.

 

[The_Real_Batman]

Thanks for the good advice. I think her run on the carousel can't last much longer. She just joined a gym and is desperately working out by taking classes. She also hired a personal trainer despite the fact that I've done several bodybuilding contests and I'm in great shape. She gained weight on her waist, as she binge eats sometimes, but I've always told her that I loved her and found her attractive, so she's probably working out for someone other than me.

I was actually was quite happy by myself before I met her, and I had been single for 5 years before I decided to date her. I was reluctant to get married, and reluctant to have kids, as this is exactly the situation I wanted to avoid. She really seemed like an honest and a moral person when I met her, so she either deceived me all along, or she fell off the wagon somewhere along the way.

I agree that once a woman has strayed and found out she enjoys it that it's difficult to stop that from recurring. Obviously the fact that I kept finding out and we got in repeated fights over it didn't deter her from continuing. She plays dumb and says she doesn't know why she hurt me or why she did it, but the bottom line is that she did it because she wanted to and she enjoyed it. It only stopped after I caught her a 4th time and I blew up the situation by calling her exes as well as her suspected and known lovers, and instead of responding with with remorse, she got angry and defensive. I've already told her that I'm basically leaving unless she pulls off a mirace and she doesn't even seem to be concerned. I asked her if she'd quit her job with all the travel and move to a smaller house to save our marraige, and she responded by saying, "don't make me answer that question". She later said that she's not selling the house and she'll never quit her job. She is smart in some ways but dumb in others, as she doesn't even have to emotional/social intelligence to see that I'm testing her sometimes.....

 

[Milano]

I dont think she bothers your testing game because she does not respect you at all.

"It only stopped after I caught her a 4th time", thats 4 times over the limit, bro! She knew she had you after the first time, then she continued the horror show like a pro skank.

I`m afraid there`s no miracles she can pull off. I know what your thinking, one does not want to give up when so much is invested, specially here, but she left the ship years ago and have been on an ego trip of a lifetime ever since. She is a terrible person and deserves nothing more than to be treated like the hore she is.

 

[speed dawg]

Thanks for the good advice. I think her run on the carousel can't last much longer. She just joined a gym and is desperately working out by taking classes. She also hired a personal trainer despite the fact that I've done several bodybuilding contests and I'm in great shape. She gained weight on her waist, as she binge eats sometimes, but I've always told her that I loved her and found her attractive, so she's probably working out for someone other than me.

I was actually was quite happy by myself before I met her, and I had been single for 5 years before I decided to date her. I was reluctant to get married, and reluctant to have kids, as this is exactly the situation I wanted to avoid. She really seemed like an honest and a moral person when I met her, so she either deceived me all along, or she fell off the wagon somewhere along the way.

I agree that once a woman has strayed and found out she enjoys it that it's difficult to stop that from recurring. Obviously the fact that I kept finding out and we got in repeated fights over it didn't deter her from continuing. She plays dumb and says she doesn't know why she hurt me or why she did it, but the bottom line is that she did it because she wanted to and she enjoyed it. It only stopped after I caught her a 4th time and I blew up the situation by calling her exes as well as her suspected and known lovers, and instead of responding with with remorse, she got angry and defensive. I've already told her that I'm basically leaving unless she pulls off a mirace and she doesn't even seem to be concerned. I asked her if she'd quit her job with all the travel and move to a smaller house to save our marraige, and she responded by saying, "don't make me answer that question". She later said that she's not selling the house and she'll never quit her job. She is smart in some ways but dumb in others, as she doesn't even have to emotional/social intelligence to see that I'm testing her sometimes.....

Stop making excuses dude. There's nothing else about this situation that needs to be said.

What you need to do right now is collect yourself. You WILL be going through a divorce soon, and your fate in that divorce depends on how quickly you can regain your composure.

This is exactly what you need to:

1) Start journaling. Do your best to recollect all the moments throughout the years, and list them in the journal. When your wife does stupid sh*t, don't call her out on it anymore, just write it in the journal. Find, and keep, PROOF of your wife cheating. Keep a log book of these things.
2) When you've got plenty of evidence, hire an attorney. DO NOT TELL HER. I'd probably go find you another residence somewhere else to to have it.
3) File for divorce. At this point, she will probably freak out. KEEP YOUR HEAD.

You play your cards right, you'll make out with the kids AND she'll be paying you child support and half her income. If you supplicate and crawl back to her, SHE...WILL...RIP...YOUR....ASS...TO....SHREDS. Even more than she already has.

Your move. Fix all that, then we start worrying about getting rid of your inner AFC.

 

[Roober]

Go talk to a divorce attorney. Of you get 50/50 custody, she Will pay you for child support and alimony. My ex only makes 35k more a month and she pays me 1k a month. Child support is based strictly on custody and income. Alimony is based on income.

I am in California. She tried to guilt the fvck out of me, and I told her to fvck off. Its awesome when the system works in a man's favor. Most do, but men are too much of pvssies to do anything about it.

 

[The_Real_Batman]

I went to see a female divorce attorney that a friend recommended and she told me I have more than enough evidence already, that most people don't have as much evidence as I do, and that based on her experience my wife's behavior won't change so a divorce is a question of when rather than if. I asked about hiring a PI to get more evidence and she asked, "why"?

I also went to see a female marriage counselor with my wife just to see what she had to say. That's when I confronted my wife about a local hotel on our CC statement from last year and she tried to say that she went to stay there after we got into an argument, but that she left right away when I called her and asked her to come home. She never left the house for more than an hour, and if she did it was because she didn't want to talk about getting caught cheating. She never told me that she got a hotel one night, and if she really left right away I don't understand why she wouldn't have asked for a refund. I may try to call the CC company or go to the hotel and inquire what time the charge was made. That would definitely be the nail in the coffin for any divorce case, as I know she met the guy at a hotel over the summer, so it would show a pattern of behavior.

Anyways, the marriage counselor tried to say that she could save our marriage, but that it would take 6 months of hard work. She tried to tell my wife that she wasn't a bad person, and that she should stop beating herself up over what happened. A few times I was trying to tell my version of what happened, and the marriage counselor cut me off and said, "what's your point?" I went to the session just to have someone else tell us the marriage was and my wife should face the reality of what she's done, but instead the counselor gave her false hope. I also just wanted my story to be heard and have my feelings acknowledged, but it was as if the counselor felt my wife didn't do anything wrong. Needless to say I'm not going back.

I guess what really bothers me is what has happened to the institution of marriage over the last few decades. My grandparents married at 20 and they were together over 70 years before one of them passed away. My parents were married 60+ years before one of them died. They had times when things weren't great, but they always worked it out. Nowadays people are so selfish and they do whatever feels good at the moment, and if the marriage is trashed as a consequence, then they just start over again. It's disgusting and it makes me regret ever marrying.

If and when I do leave I'm pretty much planning on staying single the rest of my life. I figure that the dating pool if women in their 40s is probably filled with ones just like my wife, i.e. they have mental health issues, no morals, etc. I've known other guys to jump out of the pan and into the fire with another woman, and that's the last thing I want. I'm sure my wife will go on a fvcking spree, but she's never going to find a man to commit to her since she''s over 50, will have been divorced twice, and has a disabled child. My SMV is way higher than hers, even though she makes more money.

 

[Roober]

I went to see a female divorce attorney that a friend recommended and she told me I have more than enough evidence already, that most people don't have as much evidence as I do, and that based on her experience my wife's behavior won't change so a divorce is a question of when rather than if. I asked about hiring a PI to get more evidence and she asked, "why"?

I also went to see a female marriage counselor with my wife just to see what she had to say. That's when I confronted my wife about a local hotel on our CC statement from last year and she tried to say that she went to stay there after we got into an argument, but that she left right away when I called her and asked her to come home. She never left the house for more than an hour, and if she did it was because she didn't want to talk about getting caught cheating. She never told me that she got a hotel one night, and if she really left right away I don't understand why she wouldn't have asked for a refund. I may try to call the CC company or go to the hotel and inquire what time the charge was made. That would definitely be the nail in the coffin for any divorce case, as I know she met the guy at a hotel over the summer, so it would show a pattern of behavior.

Anyways, the marriage counselor tried to say that she could save our marriage, but that it would take 6 months of hard work. She tried to tell my wife that she wasn't a bad person, and that she should stop beating herself up over what happened. A few times I was trying to tell my version of what happened, and the marriage counselor cut me off and said, "what's your point?" I went to the session just to have someone else tell us the marriage was and my wife should face the reality of what she's done, but instead the counselor gave her false hope. I also just wanted my story to be heard and have my feelings acknowledged, but it was as if the counselor felt my wife didn't do anything wrong. Needless to say I'm not going back.

I guess what really bothers me is what has happened to the institution of marriage over the last few decades. My grandparents married at 20 and they were together over 70 years before one of them passed away. My parents were married 60+ years before one of them died. They had times when things weren't great, but they always worked it out. Nowadays people are so selfish and they do whatever feels good at the moment, and if the marriage is trashed as a consequence, then they just start over again. It's disgusting and it makes me regret ever marrying.

If and when I do leave I'm pretty much planning on staying single the rest of my life. I figure that the dating pool if women in their 40s is probably filled with ones just like my wife, i.e. they have mental health issues, no morals, etc. I've known other guys to jump out of the pan and into the fire with another woman, and that's the last thing I want. I'm sure my wife will go on a fvcking spree, but she's never going to find a man to commit to her since she''s over 50, will have been divorced twice, and has a disabled child. My SMV is way higher than hers, even though she makes more money.

I have found therapy to be... kind of useless. If you know the problem and have a good head on your shoulders, therapists tend to be a colossal waste of time. Additionally, they vary sooooooo widely in how they handle things. There is no consistency whatsoever. Some are deadset on saving marriages, others are more relaxed and understand relationships do fail...

The kid is not yours? Continue to see an attorney, just be careful of costs and their motives. Some are complete snakes and will make the situation worse. Look into all of the laws regarding divorce in your state. It sounds to me like you should get alimony and child support (if the kid is yours)

 

[The_Real_Batman]

No....the kids are both mine. One of them is actually from an egg donor because my wife couldn't concieve. I agree with counselors, as I read a lot and I'm very introspective, so I don't need to pay someone to tell me the obvious.

I keep thinking about the fact that my wife did this to me right after I lost one of my parents who was very close to me and my kids. Talk about being coldhearted. There's no excuse for that.....

 

[The Duke]

I guess what really bothers me is what has happened to the institution of marriage over the last few decades. My grandparents married at 20 and they were together over 70 years before one of them passed away. My parents were married 60+ years before one of them died. They had times when things weren't great, but they always worked it out. Nowadays people are so selfish and they do whatever feels good at the moment, and if the marriage is trashed as a consequence, then they just start over again. It's disgusting and it makes me regret ever marrying.

If and when I do leave I'm pretty much planning on staying single the rest of my life. I figure that the dating pool if women in their 40s is probably filled with ones just like my wife, i.e. they have mental health issues, no morals, etc. I've known other guys to jump out of the pan and into the fire with another woman, and that's the last thing I want. I'm sure my wife will go on a fvcking spree, but she's never going to find a man to commit to her since she''s over 50, will have been divorced twice, and has a disabled child.

Quoted for the absolute truth!

 

[mrgoodstuff]

No. She just didn't feel attraction for you anymore. Whether that's because you've lacked confidence, leadership, or a backbone, I have no clue. Women will gravitate toward another man when he's more fun and interesting than the man she's currently with.

Not necessarily true. There is a type of cheater who despises their high level, high attraction male and will tear him down if he allows. Part of the teardowns include cheating, social triangulation, etc.

Women don't date down to feel more attractive. If anything, she believed she was dating someone better than you. I don't mean to make you feel bad here, but that's likely how she perceived it.

There is an exact type of WOMAN who does date DOWN a less attractive male so she feels more attractive in comparison. The guy may not have been better in anyway, but he made her feel BETTER ABOUT HERSELF relative to him. Our guy was a built, attractive male and he got with this hellish viper hell bent on proving she's better than him and acting like a victim the whole while.

Honestly, I don't think that bytch has the ability to be in a stable relationship with ANYBODY whether it be you or any of the guys she's fvcked around with. Once a woman has had a good ride on the c0ck carousel, they keep going back for more until their fat ass is over the weight limit.



Women don't calculate anything. They do what they feel like doing and then try to figure out how to cover up the skeletons later.

Who cares, she was a cheating slag.

If you have a lawyer who's putting a price on the divorce, fire him. There is no way to tell how much it's going to cost. The less bickering you do with her, the faster it will go and the easier and cheaper it will be.

Allow the lawyer to coach you. She's using her male "friends", and legal folks to coach against you. They've probably even discussed the things to do and not allow to keep your masculinity minimized.

As long as you're looking for something fair when it comes to the kids, you can get them for at least half the time.

The problem is you're speculating and driving yourself fvcking crazy. You really cannot predict what your divorce is going to be like. Get it through your head what you absolutely want to retain from your marriage, and make sure you stick with that. If the only thing you really want is to get your kids for at least half the time, then focus on that. Be prepared to make sacrifices in other areas to get what you really want. The more you two battle about stupid 5hit like pets or kitchen appliances, the more expensive it will be.

I"ve been with a woman like our hero is speaking of, and as a "h0e" and with makeup she was able to make herself appear attractive to the single world, but in reality she was very ugly. I just couldn't see it.

I'm going to say this... Getting the hell out of a relationship when you're constantly being fvcked around on is going to do wonders for your self-esteem and confidence. The trip there is going to be turbulent, but afterwards you're going to be thankful you got rid of that dripping wh0re bag you've been married to.

Your going to feel an epiphany and life will feel like heaven if you can keep the leeches, roaches and rats out of your circle and out of your ear. You will feel like a million bucks. And at some point you will realize what the heck did you ever see in your wife.

Guy sometimes they might have started out an angel for you, but they had a devil in their ear the whole time coaching her against you. Flirting and being nice when you have to work hard, the whole time plotting to get her to slowly step closer to their viewpoint.

You don't have to do anything wrong. This is why shaking things up with some negative $hit helps, because it is out of place, they can't account for it, because up till then your so predictable. Still sometimes there is NOTHING you could've ever done besides have those peers of hers who where influeincing buried.

 

[speed dawg]

Anyways, the marriage counselor tried to say that she could save our marriage, but that it would take 6 months of hard work. She tried to tell my wife that she wasn't a bad person, and that she should stop beating herself up over what happened. A few times I was trying to tell my version of what happened, and the marriage counselor cut me off and said, "what's your point?" I went to the session just to have someone else tell us the marriage was and my wife should face the reality of what she's done, but instead the counselor gave her false hope. I also just wanted my story to be heard and have my feelings acknowledged, but it was as if the counselor felt my wife didn't do anything wrong. Needless to say I'm not going back.

Don't put yourself through this. Good decision not to go back. The counselor will blame you and take the female side because it's all based on 'emotion' and FEELZ.....and profit for them. They prey on that.

Stop blaming marriage. You are AFC to the max and your wife is a bad person.

One last question - how old are your kids?

 

[The_Real_Batman]

I have an alpha career and alpha appearance, but I've definitely been way too nice to her, so I've been beta in that regard. Although I question neediness, as any guy would be needy if your wife didn't have sex with you for months at a time.


As far as my kids, they're 8 and 3, and as I said before, one of them is disabled and has OCD, anxiety, meltdowns, and learning disabilities amongst other things. She has a panic attack if I even walk out of the room, so joint custody is going to be devastating for her.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Don't put yourself through this. Good decision not to go back. The counselor will blame you and take the female side because it's all based on 'emotion' and FEELZ.....and profit for them. They prey on that.

Stop blaming marriage. You are AFC to the max and your wife is a bad person.

One last question - how old are your kids?

Counselors don't always take the females side. I've been to three different ones, three situations. In 2 of them where the wife was an apparent liar with no remorse they called them out. They couldn't stand to see such a greedy liar. And those liars felt naked and never wanted to go back because the lady didn't side with them.

The key was I found a FEMALE counselor who was marriage friendly, also ones that believed in consistent intimacy and connection. They can't stand selfish folks who only think of self and hate to see the demon in a female.

 

[speed dawg]

As far as my kids, they're 8 and 3, and as I said before, one of them is disabled and has OCD, anxiety, meltdowns, and learning disabilities amongst other things. She has a panic attack if I even walk out of the room, so joint custody is going to be devastating for her.

Sounds like her life up to this point has been pretty devastating as well. Something to think about.

Counselors don't always take the females side. I've been to three different ones, three situations. In 2 of them where the wife was an apparent liar with no remorse they called them out. They couldn't stand to see such a greedy liar. And those liars felt naked and never wanted to go back because the lady didn't side with them.

The key was I found a FEMALE counselor who was marriage friendly, also ones that believed in consistent intimacy and connection. They can't stand selfish folks who only think of self and hate to see the demon in a female.

Statistics vs. your own personal experience. I think I'll go with the stats in this case.