You Will Always Pay for Sex

[taiyuu_otoko]

Then please, enlighten us all. Every response I've ever read from you is worthless contrarian sh!t with nothing to back it up. All you do is post quick hit contradictory crap, so what IS your experience? Why don't you tell us all about your well thought out reasonings on the subject.

Touched a nerve, eh?

Ok, I'll bite.

You say one will ALWAYS pay for sex.

I'm assuming when you say "pay" you mean "give up something of value that you would have otherwise traded for something else."

Because, OBVIOUSLY, you expend energy, thought, resources on EVERYTHING. even inhaling oxygen costs you CO2 (assuming you live long enough to exhale.)

OK, here is MY experience:

I once dated a girl from another culture. She had been dating a guy for eight years. Her parents, His parents, pretty much laid down the law that she would get married. She was lonely. She longed for companionship. We met while I was doing something that I was already doing. I invited her for dinner. We ate. We fukked. She left. This went on for a few weeks until she couldn't take the guilt of cheating any more. End of story.

Now what did I have to PAY for that experience?
The food I prepared? I needed to eat anyways.
The time I spent? I was gonna spend it anyways watching whatever was on TV. My sperm? In my opnion, whatever it is I laid out wasn't something that I wasn't prepared to lay out anyways for those nights sitting home alone and watching TV.

So, here we go.

We take YOUR assertion: One ALWAYS pays for sex.
we take MY assumption: Pay = (see above)
we take MY Experience: (two paragraphs up).

The only variable is my assumption. If my stated assumption is correct, (pay = giving up something of value that we wouldn't have already given up) then...

YOU ARE WRONG, BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE

Now if when you say "pay" you mean as in pay for O2 with CO2 as in normal respiration, then boy howdy this is one long thread over an obvious point.

Now, let me address the "quick hit contrarian crap" statement.

quick hit: I apolgize for not posting several times a day. Unfortunately, with my schedule as it is, I only post when I have time to post what I feel is meaningful.

contrarian: Again I aplogize, for not sharing your opinion as often as you'd like. I seem to remember you mentioning in another thread about writing a book on "Positive Masculinity". I would hope that one endeavoring such a project on such a seemingly subjective topic would see a contrarian view as a useful tool to either strengthen or re-tool one's opinion. Perhaps I misjudged you.

Crap: I don't know what to say about this one.


As a heads up, as long as you intend to continue to post your well formed opinions about the nature of male/female relationships, I will continue to post my contrarian views, as I see fit.

Do with them what you will. I realize that as a moderator you have the power to BAN me should you feel that my posts don't belong here.

 

[ThunderMaverick]

One will always have to pay for gas to go to a job interview.

One will always have to buy a tie if the job requires it.

A girl who is deeply physically attracted to you, in my opinion, isn't expecting you to pay her way, even subconsciously, in exchange for sex.

My experiences are, what is it? Contrarian as well? I don't even know if that's a word. I've experienced a few situations that are similar to Otoko's as well.

It seems that maybe we're talking about two different categories when it comes to the sex/money exchange; ONS vs Long Term? In the latter category I can see Rollo's point. However, isn't the woman looking more towards the security side of the relationship when and if it gets that far?


Now, Rollo...how much do you pay your wife for sex?

 

[Trader]

You will always pay for sex - thru time, money, emotional energy.

Another poster mentioned that this was obvious and 'elementary.'

Actually common sense is not so common.

There are guys who are in their 30s who have banged tons of girls yet they have absolutely no achivements in life because they spent all their efforts on sexing girls.

I guess they can brag that they slept with 'X' number of girls.

The takeaway from this is, to keep perspective of things. Girls are good, the game is good, but it should only be a sidebar, not your main focus in life. You have bigger fish to fry - I know each of you do have some lofty goal inside of you.

The famous investor Jim Rogers said: "You can do anything you want in life, you just can't do everything." We have time, energy, and financial constraints - remember that when you are thinking of going out with a so-so girl.

And a HIGH QUALITY girl can see this - let a girl choose between a pick-up artist who has macked tons of girls or a real man with achievements in life, say a Kobe Bryant or a CEO, and she'll choose the latter every time.

 

[ketostix]

You will always pay for sex - thru time, money, emotional energy.

Another poster mentioned that this was obvious and 'elementary.'

Actually common sense is not so common.

There are guys who are in their 30s who have banged tons of girls yet they have absolutely no achivements in life because they spent all their efforts on sexing girls.

I guess they can brag that they slept with 'X' number of girls.

The takeaway from this is, to keep perspective of things. Girls are good, the game is good, but it should only be a sidebar, not your main focus in life. You have bigger fish to fry - I know each of you do have some lofty goal inside of you.

The famous investor Jim Rogers said: "You can do anything you want in life, you just can't do everything." We have time, energy, and financial constraints - remember that when you are thinking of going out with a so-so girl.

And a HIGH QUALITY girl can see this - let a girl choose between a pick-up artist who has macked tons of girls or a real man with achievements in life, say a Kobe Bryant or a CEO, and she'll choose the latter every time.

You can tell this to some of these guys that disagree you will always pay for sex till the cow's come home and they won't acknowledge it. They make it sound like a guy can just walk down the street on his way to pick up a loaf of bread and snap his fingers like Fonzi and the girl will follow him straight home and have sex with him right away and leave right away. That how it is for women, not men.

They don't know how to value their time or know how to count the cost of things maybe. They'll point out it costs money to just live anyway! But since when did anyone say it was free to live or even inexpensive in modern society? As long as they didn't take her out to dinner and pay the check where the cost is all black white and clear as day, then it didn't "cost" them anything!



The truth is you can have sex with girls without spending a lot of additional time and money then what as they put it "the cost of just living". But no matter how quick and easy that particular lay came it was prefaced on many hours of development to attract women. Point is that was time that could've been spent on profit earning endeavors.

 

[NewMan]

You can tell this to some of these guys that disagree you will always pay for sex till the cow's come home and they won't acknowledge it. They make it sound like a guy can just walk down the street on his way to pick up a loaf of bread and snap his fingers like Fonzi and the girl will follow him straight home and have sex with him right away and leave right away. That how it is for women, not men.

They don't know how to value their time or know how to count the cost of things maybe. They'll point out it costs money to just live anyway! But since when did anyone say it was free to live or even inexpensive in modern society? As long as they didn't take her out to dinner and pay the check where the cost is all black white and clear as day, then it didn't "cost" them anything!



The truth is you can have sex with girls without spending a lot of additional time and money then what as they put it "the cost of just living". But no matter how quick and easy that particular lay came it was prefaced on many hours of development to attract women. Point is that was time that could've been spent on profit earning endeavors.

Fvck your a barrell of fun aren't you?

So every second of your day is spent making money on other 'endeavors'?

yeah thought so.

 

[NewMan]

The thing you're missing is that they're legally, emotionally and financially obligated to "put up with it". Once it reaches a threshold where they recognize money spent on a divorce and all the other liabilities that go with it is worth paying in comparison to a woman's frigidity, then they'll make the break.

And all that money, lost income and wasted potential are all aggregate parts of the price tag that her pussie had on it when she WAS putting out for them.

The thing your missing, is that they don't have to stay.

the majority of these guys jump into marrage as soon as possible - pumping out multiple kids - they go into it eye's closed - blind as a bat.

Doesn't have to be this way.

If you believe that after 7, 8 ..... years of being with the same pvssy, she's going ot have the same desire as yr. 1 - then your crazy.

In this day and age, you don't have to put up with it.

PRE NUP.

 

[NewMan]

The sex dries up after you have the kids and the little piece of paper called a marriage liscense[her liscense for half]. Did any of your live in's have the RIGHT to HALF YOUR stuff? SOme of your income to support them after the breakup? IF you never risked losing more than a TV set in the breakup, thats like practicing in a dojo with MMA fighters; they don't usually hit you as hard as they can in practice. Dare you to step "in the ring". You'd be surprised what you'll put up with if it's going to cost you 2 or 3 hundred thousand and it's up to lawyers and judges to spend 9 months and $10,000 for your lawyer to decide the amount.
I got married for kids{to have them}. She just used sex to convince me to marry her[she didn't know the meaning of no before my first son was born, but after it gets expensive to leave, she learned].

Why do you think they were live in's?

Hmmm - I lived with them for 4 yrs. When she began to use sex as a barganing chip, I left.

How long did you live with your ex?

Did you protect your assests?

Did you get a PRE NUP?

 

[NewMan]

No there are profit earning ventures and profit losing ventures. Women profit from sex generally and men pay. You are confusing trade offs with net leverage or currency. What's so hard to understand about that? Just because your pride won't allow you to admit it, that doesn't change the true dynamic.

Whay you said didn't even make sense.

if you want to sit at home and wack off to porn, then so be it.

The fact is, pvssy doesn't have to cost a thing - you 'pay' what you want to pay.

 

[ketostix]

Fvck your a barrell of fun aren't you?

So every second of your day is spent making money on other 'endeavors'?

yeah thought so.

Don't try to play a reversal. It's women who are taking the fun out of it and setting up the demands. Don't blame me .

Whay you said didn't even make sense.

if you want to sit at home and wack off to porn, then so be it.

The fact is, pvssy doesn't have to cost a thing - you 'pay' what you want to pay.

What can I say nothing cost anything if you refuse to acknowledge it, or if you don't value your time, or if your time is worthless anyway I guess. Even a business can cook the books for a time but eventually someone pays. In this scenario the cost generally gets past on to the man. I mean I partially agree with you that sex can cost you very little personally, but the point that women overall get their pay for it somewhere is still valid.

 

[window]

In a relationship with a woman you are either a provider or a lover in her eyes. If you are a provider then yes you will pay for sex on some level.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

The fact is, pvssy doesn't have to cost a thing - you 'pay' what you want to pay.

Spot on. Insert any noun (or nominalization) for pvssy, that you have, for whatever reason, erroneously convinced yourself is out of your reach, and you have the secret to a happy, prosperous and pvssy filled life.

And Ketostix (or whoever), would you ever consider, just for a second, that maybe, just maybe, the mindset that precedes the ability to make heaps of cash is the same mindset that precedes the ability to attract chicks like fonzi?

 

[STR8UP]

In a relationship with a woman you are either a provider or a lover in her eyes. If you are a provider then yes you will pay for sex on some level.

This is true to a point, but there are usually costs involved for lovers as well, albeit much lower.

 

[ketostix]

In a relationship with a woman you are either a provider or a lover in her eyes. If you are a provider then yes you will pay for sex on some level.

This is based on the fallacy that a female of value cannot get a lover and provider in one package if she wants that. A woman of value can, and heck even average girls can. It's also taking the term "provider" too literally since often times you have to have the potential to be a provider to attract a woman as lover. It's true that girls do at times want NSA sex, ONS or just a lover etc. But even then it's not like women have to actively seduce a lover. A guy still has to time and effort to be the lover.

 

[Luveno]

Spot on. Insert any noun (or nominalization) for pvssy, that you have, for whatever reason, erroneously convinced yourself is out of your reach, and you have the secret to a happy, prosperous and pvssy filled life.

And Ketostix (or whoever), would you ever consider, just for a second, that maybe, just maybe, the mindset that precedes the ability to make heaps of cash is the same mindset that precedes the ability to attract chicks like fonzi?

There is a difference between the commercial markets, whose rules are basically set in stone and followed by all who partake, and the sexual "market", whose rules are taboo and not discussed or written about by any mainstream source.

The commercial market, evolved over thousands of years, is crucial for men to increase their material wealth, and in doing so decrease their worry and unhappiness. Advancements are openly shared and distributed because the collective work of those in the market creates something of value that is tangible. To create and to buy these tangible things, be it goods or services, takes money. Thus, you will sometimes pay to utilize goods or services - if not with money, than with actions and favors. Sometimes you can get things for free if you can convince the seller that their wares are not valuable.

The sexual "market", also evolved over thousands of years, is not crucial for men to increase their material wealth. It is only crucial for men to increase their number of children, or their pride and pleasure even moreso. It is not an experience that is shared between men but one that is experienced by one man alone. Due to multiple intangible variables, most men throughout time have not taken it upon themselves to derive what makes a man sexually successful with attractive women. Up until recently, the only thing that really mattered in attracting sexy women was money and power, which brings us back to the commercial markets.

Now, about paying for sex. Paying is something that is done to obtain a desired good - you lose something to gain something else. The seller obtains a greater amount of money than the good is worth, but you gain something that you could not otherwise get elsewhere or make for yourself. A perfect transaction sees this as a fair exchange.

Sex, objectively, is the insertion of a penis into a vagina. This is done by any mammal. It's really not a big deal. Any man on the planet could walk downtown and find a girl to have sexual intercourse with - of course, said girl would probably be ugly and therefore worthless.

Sex, subjectively, is based on more than just the act. It's based on the physical structure of the woman, their skill in bed, their demographic, their risk for having disease, their "baggage" such as children and divorce, and a whole slew of countless other factors. This total package has a value, which has an average based on society's perception of them. Thus, a woman who is sexy and smart is seen as valuable, whereas an ugly dumb cow is seen as worthless. So, an average man would not have to pay for sex with an ugly dumb cow(unless you consider losing pride paying, but that is a subjective measurement). However, most average men would have to pay for sex with the attractive girl via dates, drinks, dinner, time away from other ventures that could amass wealth, etc.

However, as mentioned above, if one is a good negotiator, one can convince the salesperson(who in this case is the woman you want to sex up) that their commodity(sex) is not as valuable as other people would have her believe. In fact, you could get it somewhere else, just as good, just as valuable, for far less expense! This is seen with those tried and true "game" techniques and "DJ Bible" axioms that have been propagated on this website time and time again. Thus, these men pay nothing for sex(unless of course you count the subjective time it took for them to learn about the "game", which is too far removed from the actual transaction to consider a cost).

So, in conclusion, you will not always pay for sex. You will sometimes pay for sex. It all depends on your market value, the market value of your target, and your ability to negotiate.

 

[Colossus]

You know Sodbuster, that's probably my only fear left in life..is to end up in a sexless marriage where the wife issues sex as a reward for good behavior, uses it as a tool to get what she wants, then cuts off all supply.

I agree.

SODBUSTER dropped some been-there wisdom in this thread. The fighting analogy was perfect. Every guy thinks he is a basa$$ in his own mind, but imagining kicking someone's a$$ and really doing it are two different things.

I think a lot of guys get lulled into this false sense of security thinking their marriage 'wont be like the others'. Their fiance "is cool"; she loves sex and would never use it against him.

I'm telling you brothers--women change when they get married. That sweet little hottie who blows you 5 times a week and lets you do whatever you want becomes enveloped in the cocoon of matrimony and will one day emerge as different creature...one that you didn't marry.

I have never been married, so I am speaking from the experiences of other men I have known and my own observations. But this is what scares me about marriage. Not the monetary aspect---I will not marry without a prenup--but the prospect of being MARRIED to a woman who has no fire for sex anymore. Understandably sex can become boring in any relationship, but I don't see any way to predict this. It just seems a total uncertainty.

 

[Colossus]

What level of disrespect is going to be the end of the relationship if its going to cost you a couple hundred thousand? don't give me the "if she don't put out every time,she's gone line". Your balls aren't really that big. She'll get away with stuff she wouldn't have earlier,trust me.

This is so blunt and real it's eloquent. I might even make this my sig.

 

[STR8UP]

I agree.

SODBUSTER dropped some been-there wisdom in this thread.

That's why it is so important for the bright eyed, bushy tailed younger men to listen to the stories of us "old timers", ESPECIALLY the ones who have taken the final step and gotten married and subsequently divorced.

Too often it's the guys who haven't been through enough in life that are crying about others pessimism, misogyny, etc.

I think a lot of guys get lulled into this false sense of security thinking their marriage 'wont be like the others'. Their fiance "is cool"; she loves sex and would never use it against him.

I'm telling you brothers--women change when they get married. That sweet little hottie who blows you 5 times a week and lets you do whatever you want becomes enveloped in the cocoon of matrimony and will one day emerge as different creature...one that you didn't marry.

Never been married myself, but my last experience of being with one woman for two years just to see her go from the sweetest thing on earth to a she-devil overnight forever altered my perception of women and relationships to its very core.

It had happened to me in the past on a smaller scale, and I watched other guys go through it, but it didn't really sink in until I spent two years with a chick just to realize in the end that I, me, as a person meant absolutely nothing to her. I could have either been "that guy" who asked her to marry him, prolonging the process by extending her "high", but since I wasn't going to be that guy, she showed me just how expendable I was to her. Not a good feeling.

I have never been married, so I am speaking from the experiences of other men I have known and my own observations. But this is what scares me about marriage. Not the monetary aspect---I will not marry without a prenup--but the prospect of being MARRIED to a woman who has no fire for sex anymore. Understandably sex can become boring in any relationship, but I don't see any way to predict this. It just seems a total uncertainty.

What if she gains 75 lbs? What if her mother gets sick and she brings her to live in your house and quits her job to care for her? What if she was basically non-religious or at least non-practicing when you married her, but suddenly decides she needs to find herself in Jesus and starts attending services (and giving away a substantial portion of your hard earned money) twice a week at some whack job ministry?

I have seen most of these scenarios play themselves out in real life.

So true....money is only PART of the risk of getting married.

Just for the record....

A lot of you guys have talked about women withholding sex, but for some reason I have never really experienced that in a relationship. It was either the sex was plentiful, or it was completely cut off just before a breakup. Never really had a woman "use sex as a weapon". I guess I'm lucky like that.

 

[ketostix]

A lot of you guys have talked about women withholding sex, but for some reason I have never really experienced that in a relationship. It was either the sex was plentiful, or it was completely cut off just before a breakup. Never really had a woman "use sex as a weapon". I guess I'm lucky like that.

Maybe the sex was too good for her to withhold short of a clean break . That's been my experience too, but I can see if the relationship went on for several years or was in a marriage there could be a withholding of sex.

 

[Tazman]

There is a difference between the commercial markets, whose rules are basically set in stone and followed by all who partake, and the sexual "market", whose rules are taboo and not discussed or written about by any mainstream source.

The commercial market, evolved over thousands of years, is crucial for men to increase their material wealth, and in doing so decrease their worry and unhappiness. Advancements are openly shared and distributed because the collective work of those in the market creates something of value that is tangible. To create and to buy these tangible things, be it goods or services, takes money. Thus, you will sometimes pay to utilize goods or services - if not with money, than with actions and favors. Sometimes you can get things for free if you can convince the seller that their wares are not valuable.

The sexual "market", also evolved over thousands of years, is not crucial for men to increase their material wealth. It is only crucial for men to increase their number of children, or their pride and pleasure even moreso. It is not an experience that is shared between men but one that is experienced by one man alone. Due to multiple intangible variables, most men throughout time have not taken it upon themselves to derive what makes a man sexually successful with attractive women. Up until recently, the only thing that really mattered in attracting sexy women was money and power, which brings us back to the commercial markets.

Now, about paying for sex. Paying is something that is done to obtain a desired good - you lose something to gain something else. The seller obtains a greater amount of money than the good is worth, but you gain something that you could not otherwise get elsewhere or make for yourself. A perfect transaction sees this as a fair exchange.

Sex, objectively, is the insertion of a penis into a vagina. This is done by any mammal. It's really not a big deal. Any man on the planet could walk downtown and find a girl to have sexual intercourse with - of course, said girl would probably be ugly and therefore worthless.

Sex, subjectively, is based on more than just the act. It's based on the physical structure of the woman, their skill in bed, their demographic, their risk for having disease, their "baggage" such as children and divorce, and a whole slew of countless other factors. This total package has a value, which has an average based on society's perception of them. Thus, a woman who is sexy and smart is seen as valuable, whereas an ugly dumb cow is seen as worthless. So, an average man would not have to pay for sex with an ugly dumb cow(unless you consider losing pride paying, but that is a subjective measurement). However, most average men would have to pay for sex with the attractive girl via dates, drinks, dinner, time away from other ventures that could amass wealth, etc.

However, as mentioned above, if one is a good negotiator, one can convince the salesperson(who in this case is the woman you want to sex up) that their commodity(sex) is not as valuable as other people would have her believe. In fact, you could get it somewhere else, just as good, just as valuable, for far less expense! This is seen with those tried and true "game" techniques and "DJ Bible" axioms that have been propagated on this website time and time again. Thus, these men pay nothing for sex(unless of course you count the subjective time it took for them to learn about the "game", which is too far removed from the actual transaction to consider a cost).

So, in conclusion, you will not always pay for sex. You will sometimes pay for sex. It all depends on your market value, the market value of your target, and your ability to negotiate.

This is interesting. You really have to think about your own value in relation to whomever you're in a relationship with. Men aren't investing themselves in women because we're simply built that way, we invest in what we deem to be of value. Women do the exact same thing and if they believe they can "move up the ladder" they will most likely do so because they can, and so do we.

Problems arise when that value isn't balanced. People breakup and search for others until it is equalized by whatever variables make it so (age, money, status, etc.). When you really feel like you have a rare commodity you don't just go looking for something of greater value and risk losing what you have. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but usually people take risks when they feel confident they'll succeed or can easily pick themselves up if they fail. These days women can afford to take many more risks in relationships and so they tend to have the upperhand.

 

[STR8UP]

Maybe the sex was too good for her to withhold short of a clean break . That's been my experience too, but I can see if the relationship went on for several years or was in a marriage there could be a withholding of sex.

I'm not even that excited about sex anymore, but even so it is an important part of a healthy relationship. I honestly don't know what I would do if sex became an "issue" in a relationship (outside of being an effect of a larger problem such as a legitimate fight). Actually, I do know what i would do. I would look at the situation briefly and analyze whether or not there might be a MEDICAL reason behind it, and if not I would proceed to head for the door.

The one relationship i had where the sex tapered off I confronted her about it, and when she answered honestly that she "just wasn't feeling it anymore" I promptly made my exit.

Bottom line- either the desire is there and she is using sex to manipulate (which luckily I have not experienced), or the desire is simply gone. Either way it's a losing proposition that you need to get out of sooner than later.