why should i pay-we hardly now each other-not even a date

[Reluctant_Seducer]

Damn, now that's cheap. :crackup:

no...


















that's bold and different

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I said pay for the date not shower her with material items to gain her approval or acceptance..

So how many people do you do this for that you've just met, do you do it with guy's you've just met?

you ASSUME extravagant gifts,toys,clothing or whatever ..

Nope, never said that; but you did. Wonder why????

 

[Reluctant_Seducer]

So what else do you arbitrarily do without any reason other than "it feels right?"

skinning small animals putting them in jars and waiting for their corpse to give me magical powers



It's not rocket science..I think people with enough sense can tell the right and wrong things to do.It's just that in the heat of the moment,that haze of excitement,arousal and all sorts of sexual endorphins are flooding your mind(or cawk) it just may make you crazy lol.

You just have to see clearly through all the BS..not the easiest thing to do at times but you just have to...most guys are lost to begin with so sites like this and others help though sometimes people take it a little too literally...

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

no...


















that's bold and different

What's that, $20 for the two of you share a bag of White Castles and then go to a movie so that the two of you can be in a closed space to smell each others... Oh I won't even go there....

 

[Reluctant_Seducer]

So how many people do you do this for that you've just met, do you do it with guy's you've just met?

Nope, never said that; but you did. Wonder why????

lol if it's an old friend haven't seen for ages..why not?

but if it's just some co-workers..dude..buy your own beer


I never said extragent gifts or showing them with it..your memory must be getting shot old man.

 

[Reluctant_Seducer]

What's that, $20 for the two of you share a bag of White Castles and then go to a movie so that the two of you can be in a closed space to smell each others... Oh I won't even go there....

don't know what movie theaters you go to mister...but I think it's time for a change or maybe you quite giving her the Travis Bickle treatment


you never been to a diner that sold $10 steak diners? not exactly the 20oz ribeyes but they are still great with fries,salad and a few other side orders to share..a relaxed place to just hang out and shoot the shiet..

not everyone needs to go skydiving,sea world or hiking the amazon to have a good time.:wave:

all in all I say people should just do what they want..isn't that what being bold and different is all about??

 

[wjh]

where do you live reluctant? how old are you?

 

[optimusprime]

Dude, no one goes on dates anymore. Thanks to feminism and the other developments, it is just "hook-up" time. Very attractive women tend to have extremely low self-esteem, so they want to be treated "badly" in an emotional sense. Basically, you both get drunk and hook-up, then next her. Or if you remember her name, you guys will simply go into a relationship. In this day and age, a "relationship" is simply a friends with benefits type of arrangement.

If she is in a sorority, she has been programmed to be treated badly. When you suggest dinner or a movie, you come across as a chump. Attractive women get these offers all the time. You should suggest that you meet up at a bar and get drinks. Again, attractive women have very low self-esteem and get offers of dinners all the time. If you are a ****y, confident, and funny guy, all you need to do is get them drunk. That being said, I am not the most confident guy and I do not know how to do the ****y and funny way; but I know it works because guys much less good-looking than me and poorer got women that I messed my chances with due to AFC stuff like "let's go to dinner."

 

[Joe The Homophobe]

Dude, no one goes on dates anymore. Thanks to feminism and the other developments, it is just "hook-up" time. Very attractive women tend to have extremely low self-esteem, so they want to be treated "badly" in an emotional sense. Basically, you both get drunk and hook-up, then next her. Or if you remember her name, you guys will simply go into a relationship. In this day and age, a "relationship" is simply a friends with benefits type of arrangement.

You've been reading Dr. Makow's stuff have you?

Damn, now that's cheap. :crackup:

I see couples eating at taco bell all the time. I think your game might be lacking if you think $20 is cheap for a date. You have the wrong mindset that we are supposed to pay a lot for a woman's time. If you're game is tight your woman is not going to say a thing about you taking her to mcdonalds. Of course it is nice to have a nice meal at a decent restaurant.....ONCE IN A WHILE! but if you have to go somewhere nice every time you have lunch/dinner together you have the wrong mindset. It will only eat up your hard earned money and your woman will lose respect for you as she sees that you are paying for her companionship in the way of nice meals at nice restaurants. Take her to mcdonalds on the weekdays, and when you go out spending the whole day together on weekends then you can take her somewhere nice.

 

[aliasguy]

-
-
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Yeah, but I'm a "food snob," (as I've been told) and I don't want to go to TACO BELL or RED LOBSTER for dinner. If she would like to go with me to a nice place, then I'll take her. So what? I'd rather eat good food.

I'll pay, most of the time. But I'll tell her "You're getting this one, right?," sometimes, too.

I want the good stuff.
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-

 

[Effington]

As someone else put it very well, you don't necessarily have the responsibility to pay for her, but it may very well result in you coming off cheap, which is rarely a good thing. The women I've dated seemed to appreciate the ocassional "chivalrous" act. I've had more than one girl say that they were really impressed that I opened car doors for them.

After a few dates, if they never offer to pay for anything, I'll start suggesting we stay in, saying I'm trying to budget better.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

lol if it's an old friend haven't seen for ages..why not? ...

Why are you guys still still trying to justify your actions by giving examples to which we aren't talking about? We aren't talking about women you've qualified and determined there is definite mutual interest, we are talking about relatives, we are talking about co-workers, we are talking about long lost friends or current friends.....

Read the title of the thread! We're talking about paying for people we hardly know and have not yet established any type of relation with!

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...
I see couples eating at taco bell all the time.

We aren't talking about couples who are already in a relationship, we're talking about someone you've just met. You guys are talking about talking about buying a woman dinner to impress her. If you feel that Taco Bell is a way to impress a woman you are either really cheap or a teenager who only gets just so much for his allowance

 

[The Forms]

What kind of women are you guys meeting where she expects you to pay for everything that happens all the time? That has honestly never happened to me.

For example, I just met a girl recently. We've had two dates so far. On the first date I bought the first round. On the second round she offered to pay. We went back and forth on it all night, I got a round, she got the next round.

Second date we met up and we each had our own tabs.

On tuesday I'm going to her place and she's cooking me dinner.

This all seems like par for the course in my book. Most of the girls I meet seem to be comfortable with this type of set up. I was seeing another girl recently and the last two times we hung out we hung out at my place. She offered to pick up beer. She never asked me to get the beers or pay her for them.

I understand a lot of you guys are in the argument of "should a guy feel that he is expected to pay for everything?" instead of "do women actually expect this all the time?" Maybe it's just the girls I meet, but do you guys really meet only girls who refuse to pay a single dime?

(is it just me or has this thread really showcased some of the bitterness some of the guys here have towards women? I say this because these arguments are about women in general, but I've met few women who are like this specifically)

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

What kind of women are you guys meeting where she expects you to pay for everything that happens all the time? That has honestly never happened to me. ..

This was the type of woman I use to meet when I believed that the romance that women wanted had to be delivered through gestures like these. A lot of women look for these gestures but we've all said that women don't really know what they want. In this case they have this ideal because most men still cater to it.

Now since I have a different mindset I primarily meet women who aren't constrained by that belief. They typically look more at the qualities of the guy rather than what he can buy. They appreciate a guy's company and will take turns doing things like in your example.

What they really enjoy is the whole spending time together (like cooking at home) than focusing on the outside venue. They are more likely to do the kind gestures themselves, like bring over the food that we're cooking. I believe that most guys don't think this is possible unless you've established a LTR with a woman and like you, this happens with women I'm qualifying typically by the third date. Many times even before we've had a date at a restaurant.

 

[Luveno]

Chivalry is dead. Feminist theory states sexual equality. Therefore, paying for your date "just because she is a woman" is against feminist theory and therefore contradictory to the advances of the feminist movement.

Last time a girl insisted I pay for the first date, I responded with "How about afterwards we go back to my place and you do my dishes".

To avoid these situations, the dates should be very simple until you have established an LTR with the woman. Go on coffee dates, martini dates etc. Do not go to the big expensive italian restaurant downtown.

 

[DonRaul]

In the latino culture, the worst thing you can do is not pay for the first date. Hopefully she wasn't latina. From my experiences, I find white/asian women are much more open to paying for themselves and even for you. Latina women see this as disrespectful, cheap and it lowers your value in her eyes completely. Even when they are just your friends. Its part of the culture. When you do not pay, its like calling them fat or ugly seriously.

So here is my golden advice: You dont lose from paying because that is the expectation. You only have something to lose when you decide paying $5 for her drink is just not your style. First, you set expectations. Expectations are the key to a persons feelings about you. Before you guys went out you should have let her know "hey just so that we don't make this an awkward outing, we should go split our bills, that way neither one of us feels uncomfortable". Ok this may work with some women so I would only do it if I din't really care (and you shouldn't care unless she's showing a lot of interest!). Second, the best trick I learned is to get them used to it which in the long run changes their expectations. Lets say you are in the coffee shop and before you guys even order play a game with her. Make sure the game is Rigged for you to win! Have a bet going

Raul: "hey lets play a game"
HB: "ok"
Raul: "write a number on this piece of paper. I will try to guess what it is. I can sometimes guess these things, I have great intuition"
HB: "hehe, ok"
Raul: "cool, but lets make it interesting.... Ok I got it, winner pays for the coffee and bagel or whatever"
HB: "... alright"
Raul: <cheats> "7, I win"
HB: "haha you're good"
Raul: "I know"
HB: <buys drinks>
Raul: <Happy>

I do this all the time. Once you get them use to it, it becomes normal. You can make it a new game everytime you guys go out. Let her win sometimes and you of course win a few times as well. Their expectation completely changes. Try it out! Let me know how it goes.

 

[iqqi]

Iqqi I want your comments on my line of thinking if you don't mind. I'm not seeking your validation I'm simply curious of your opinion.

Nice rationalization, you WOMAN!!! Just kidding. Sorry it took me so long to reply, it has always been in the back of my mind to get back to you on this, but I have been annoyed to high hell with this thread, so I had to wait a few days. I didn't want to come across as too abrasive.

As I see it, many men are bitter and frustrated with the whole dating/male-female dynamic. Obviously these issues, such as paying for dinner, 50 years ago were never even contemplated. That has changed. The primary reason for that is the disconnect between what a man is supposed to do as a man and what a woman is supposed to do as a woman.

I am with you so far...

We have a state of social and gender confusion (hat-tip str8up). Whether or not you choose to believe that, I urge you to at least consider it. This is the background from which most men in the West now grow-up in.

I think some are more confused than others. But, still with you so far...

When you do something as simple as asking a girl out to dinner, many conflicting points of view, and social contrivances, come to mind. The primary urge most men have when they initially meet a woman they are attracted to is sex. Men's sexuality is what drives them to ask you out to begin with. A woman's sexuality is what says yes or no.

Um, disagree here. Not completely disagree, just on your wording. I would substitute the word sexuality for interest. I know the meaning of both! And I stick to "interest", here. What all lies behind the interest, for men many times IS sexual, that is true. But it is more complicated than just sexuality, I really do believe.

I could go more into this.

Dinner dates are absolute social contrivances that result from thousands of years of social evolution. Today, there is no clear-cut methodology for dates period. Hence the confusion and contradictions expressed by many people here.

I think people are making it confusing, way more than what it really is!

For most of us in the DJ/seduction community, those at least over 25, we've come to accept that reality. We've come to accept the fact that every young woman we encounter is fairly unpredictable. Given this, we've turned it around and focused on ourselves. Our paradigms have shifted. Many of us no longer view things in typical ways. We're much more calculating and observant. We are conscious of the game.

The funny part here is that most women are NOT conscious of the game. You are the only ones playing half the time! Women are unpredictable based on maturity. And life is unpredictable, period!

I think that you are not focusing on yourselves at all, but even harder on this "game", so you are playing yourselves!

If you were focused on yourself, you would not see things as a game anymore, you would see things for how they ARE.

I know that might sound confusing. I am just replying as I read what you say. Let me see if I can clarify.

(thinking...)

Ok. Look, all women are not the same, all men are not the same, and it isn't us vs. them.

But in "the game", it is! Both sexes refer to each other as little more than general stereotypes of whatever they hate the most. And try to figure out ways to manipulate the situation for their benefit.

But when you wisen up and open your eyes, you see that most of the time, neither sex knows nothing about nothing!

And if you were truly focusing on yourself, then you would stop fixating on what some other confused individual is projecting. You would be secure in the knowlege that there are others like yourself, who know themselves, and are ready to leave the games behind.

But this has nothing to do with paying for dinner.

When I talk to a girl that I find attractive I determine whether or not she finds me attractive and/or is interested in me for me. If only after speaking to her I get a cold-shoulder, or I don't feel she is genuine, I simply lose ALL interest and move on. I will not pressure or try to manipulate a girl into having sex with me. I would rather have less sex and have it on my terms.

That is cool. But sometimes you have to get to know a girl better, and let her get to know you, before she can feel genuine interest. Any girl that is interested in you right away... that is superficial interest. I don't mean superficial in a bad way. I mean as in, not below the surface. Interest that comes from getting to know you over time is REAL.

Dinner dates should be rewards for women you feel are worth taking to dinner. Just as when you take a friend out to dinner.

Completely disagree. Dinner dates sound like doggie treats here! Dating in general is to get to know someone better, so they can get to know you. And in the process, you impress each other. Impress is not some bad word. It means what a person takes from the situation, regarding yourself. Understand? As in the impression they leave with, and take with them, about you.

Which, if it is a good impression, will lead to more dates. And so on.

I want to say here, (this is a repeat), that a date does not have to cost anything! Some people WANT to go out to dinner for their dates. That is a choice.

I think the problem lies in not being able to gauge a woman's interest balanced by ones own interest. ONEitis creates an inability to see outside of the male's fabricated idealization.

OK, true. But I am just going to stick to simple dating someone you are interested in, and not get into any ONEitis talk. I already elaborated on interest.

It's not as simple as stating that a man must pay for dinner, not expect anything, and be absolutely level-headed (if not cheerful) about it. The desire for more from a woman we find attractive, from the jump, is very powerful. If everything "seems" great, and we thus ask a woman out to dinner, and yet she freezes up - becomes ice cold - that expectation of male-female sexuality turns into bitter frustration.

This here is the classic reason why you shouldn't expect anything! To avoid frustration from not "getting what you paid for"! And why you shouldn't view it like that.

If you can't help but view it like that... And if it is that serious (money and sex) then don't involve money... if you might not get the sex.

Many people don't view it that way. But I know a lot of men do.

It's almost like there seems to be a deep-rooted social taboo against expressed male sexuality, to be honest. Male sexuality expressed as subterfuge most definitely. But that's something in the male psyche that almost seems biological. Just as it seems almost biological for a woman to be attracted to men with power and a lot of $.

I think it is distasteful for men to express their sexuality like a badge on their chest. I think much can be said for subtlety. This would go along with what I said in the other thread, about people seeking LTRs. Men seeking booty... is a turn off. Means they are after the booty, and not the individual. Their whole thought process revolves around getting booty, it is really shallow.

I like the dance between a man and a woman. I love it. I love gentlemanly men, and I like being the lady.

I hate empty people seeking vessels for their general emotions (LTR seekers), and I hate empty people seeking vessels for their general pleasure (wh0res). Both of those apply to both sexes.

I love someone who seems interested in me, for me. This usually comes more clear over time... and more dates. And more "dancing". If they know how.

I love getting to know someone interesting, and finding them more so each time I see them.

And yes, I love a man who can pay my way. I also love to cook and pamper. Haha.

I like a man who can be a man and give me a reason to be a woman.

Have I made any sense here? I am waaaay past my bedtime... lol.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...I do this all the time. Once you get them use to it, it becomes normal. You can make it a new game everytime you guys go out. Let her win sometimes and you of course win a few times as well. Their expectation completely changes. Try it out! Let me know how it goes.

The Latino culture isn't the only other culture where this is prominent but it seems like there is a common thread. Guy's do basically because it's expected of them.