why should i pay-we hardly now each other-not even a date

[aliasguy]

I think because in your age range or in the woman you tend to go for, they aren't being hounded by a plethora of men. Thus if they like you, they like you and little nitpicky things like whose paying for the coffee doesn't matter. If anything, her maturity combined with seeing you aren't a sucker is more of an attraction turn on.

As for 18-30 year old women, they have a lot of quality options, so if you make a small error there's another guy ready to take your position ASAP. They tend to be revelling in their pedestalised, power drive, bvtchy state and act upon that.

HAHAHA!!! Mad MAnic ---


How the HELL do you know what age girls I'm getting?


Priceless....

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[BoredDude]

And those type of gentlemen didn't have sex with women unless they are married to them. If you are going to be a gentleman, go all the way; don't half step.

Men have always had sex before marriage, even in the days of the gentlemen. Sex before marriage is usually based on a man's personal religious beliefs. And I wouldn't go on a date with a girl I planned to just see for one night.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Men have always had sex before marriage, even in the days of the gentlemen. Sex before marriage is usually based on a man's personal religious beliefs. And I wouldn't go on a date with a girl I planned to just see for one night.

We're talking about "gentlemen." Men who are nice and believe it's their duty (because they are men) to pay for a woman. You would think that those same gentlemen who are so concerned about the virtue of the woman he is pursuing, why else would he do such a nice thing as paying her way because it is his duty.

But low and behold, you bring up that men (all men, including gentlemen) have sex before marriage. So it sound like you're saying that although you say that buying a woman dinner is one of the virtues of a gentleman yet it's alright to have sex with her before marriage as if she was a wh0re taking payment of dinner for sex.

Are these guys really gentlemen or guys who find that it's easier to get into a woman's pants by expounding the virtue of being a "nice guy?" Someone should find the thread and bump the thread about how these nice guys are are really just Svengalis who need to buy their way into women's beds.

 

[iqqi]

Are these guys really gentlemen or guys who find that it's easier to get into a woman's pants by expounding the virtue of being a "nice guy?" Someone should find the thread and bump the thread about how these nice guys are are really just Svengalis who need to buy their way into women's beds.

Not all men who pay, are "Svengalis" trying to buy something... which was the point of the thread you keep bringing up, that me and squirrels were the main posters of.

The whole point of THAT, was DON'T pay, IF what you are doing is EXPECTING return of that "payment".

If you are doing it just out of chivalry, with no expectations for something in return, then its ALL GOOD.

And the whole wait for sex until marriage, is like a whole different thing. Some people don't believe in marriage. It really IS religion there. Being a gentleman has nothing to do with marriage. Its way out of context.

I think women like you are just panicking because you realize that today's men are starting to come around and realize they don't have to spend money on women like they used to, and the women who do require a man to shell out free dinners aren't worth it. "Oh no, our free dinners! Damn you feminism, why did you have to go kill chivalry? WHYYYYY?"

Yeah... right.

Sorry, but just like someone else said on here... there are 10 men who believe in paying, for everyone one who doesn't.

All that I've said so far is really just in general. The facts of the matter, whether you like them or not.

BUT, to get personal.

I USED to be the chick that didn't judge a guy who didn't pay.

Then my girls kind of beat some sense into me, after I dated a series of losers. The ones who were most adament that men pay, were foreign. And the one thing they pointed out for me to witness for myself, was that men who pay a woman's way, generally treat woman better.

And it was true!!! I noticed that they were RIGHT on point.

It got even crazier.

I dated a few guys who didn't pay in the beginning. With various ways of changing this belief of theirs, I found that these same guys treated me even better! Its like they actually found out they LIKED being chivalrous. They LIKED doing old fashionedly man behaviors... and in turn looked at me and treated me more like a lady.

Now I will also put in here, that I am a very generous person myself. When I am in a relationship with someone who is going through a rough patch, I have never balked at carrying the weight of both of us. And I LOVE to treat. I am the type to buy surprise gifts, and to treat my man out.

I think this is another reason my friends intervened on my "dutch" thinking. Women with generous natures have just as much of a tendency to be taken advantage of as men.

And when I go out on a date nowadays, I ALWAYS expect to pay my own way, because who knows what kind this guy might believe. When he insists on paying... he gets props. Means his mama taught him well, and he probably has other old fashioned morals that I admire.

Sorry, I know that might not be you.

 

[KarmaSutra]

HAHAHA!!! Mad MAnic ---


How the HELL do you know what age girls I'm getting?


Priceless....

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Mad brother is more correct than you know. Look at the way you fawn over an internet "chick" by sniffing his boxers (I refer to iqqi). I've been eyeballing the puppy dog trail you follow of his posts and I have to say it's embarrassingly childish. This is indicative of the way you treat women in real life.

And what the fvck is with all of the breaks in your posts? Is it for attention?

 

[Mad Manic]

HAHAHA!!! Mad MAnic ---


How the HELL do you know what age girls I'm getting?


Priceless....

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I said I think, not know, but I still believe what I said rings true in general. Young girls are the worst when it comes to revelling in their pedestalised states. You can at least have good convos and learn stuff from an older gal who hasn't always got her head up her ass.

 

[The Forms]

Guys, the long and short of it is you're not willing to pay for anything, you're a cheap ass. No girl wants to date a cheap guy. It's cool if you just don't have much money. Chances are she's got a good idea of how much money you make, so she won't be too surprised when you take her to applebee's instead of somewhere fancy. She probably won't expect you to pay for everything on every time you ever go out. But the first few dates you have to be classy.

Something small like a cup of coffee, COME ON, please pay for that. If you're meeting up as friends you don't need to, but if there's even a CHANCE this might be more than that pay. It's only 5 bucks.

You guys are leaving out that girls nowadays (at least in my experience, since I only date really cool girls) will offer to pay for some things too. I get this round of drinks, she gets the next round. I get dinner, she pays for the movie. Two nights ago I invited a girl over and she picked up a six pack on the way. Given the chance, plenty of girls will pay for things too.

 

[iqqi]

I've been eyeballing the puppy dog trail you follow of his posts and I have to say it's embarrassingly childish. This is indicative of the way you treat women in real life.

Kind of like yourself... I must point out.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Most of my girlfriends would be (and have been in past experiences) less attracted to a man who comes across as cheap... which is how you will come across. If you are cheap... how generous will you be in bed? If you are inconsiderate, how will that translate in terms of how you treat us in the future?

The wisdom of IQQI spelled out for you. If all you ever take from SS is this understanding, you can plan your life accordingly. This is it gentlemen, in a nutshell. Social Darwinism at it's finest; Men will get the most attractive women they can afford and women are with the wealthiest men their looks will attract.

Besides, it is also a known and scientifically proven ;-) fact that men want bootie. Women know this. Women make men prove themselves worthy.

Don't get mad at me for saying it, its the way it IS.

Then don't "get mad" when men's primary attraction is based on women's physiques. Ah yes, but I forgot, men are shallow for just fixating on women's bodies according to the social convention.

Since IQQI so eloquently outlined the rules of engagement here for us, let me offer the best recourse then:

Select and date only the most attractive women you are capable of entertaining - this comes as your first right of refusal.

Do NOT date women over 30. They are past their expiration date and are more likely to expect you "not to be cheap" indefinitely.

Do NOT date single mothers. Their financial and familial burdens are a bad investment of your resources in comparison to a woman not so encumbered.

Since even HB5s and 6s will still gladly accept a free meal without any forethought or burden of reciprocating sex, budget all your dates to $40 per date (most of which should be allocated for alcoholic drinks).

Eat a light meal prior to the date and you'll spend even less since no woman ever wants to seem like a pig by eating more than the guy taking her out, and those who will have no plan of ƒucking you that evening.

Do NOT go on coffee dates, do NOT go on lunch dates. These are safe dates. Since dating should be defined as a socially acceptable transaction for the exchange of your resources for her sexuality these types of dates are rarely ever productive.

ALWAYS stick to the 3 strikes rule. If she doesn't put out by the 3rd date, she is NEXTed - zero tolerance. 3 dates is more than enough time to evaluate whether she will sleep with you or not. Beyond this period she is a depreciating asset and an unproductive investment; cut your losses. If you stick to the $40/date rule you're only out $120 net. By rate of comparison, $120 is about average for straight sex with a legal prostitute in Nevada.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

... By rate of comparison, $120 is about average for straight sex with a legal prostitute in Nevada.

Yeah, but at least with a prostitute you have a better chance of the sex being good for the $120.

 

[joe45]

ya thats true. why pay for someone u barely to hardly even now. ppl say on this forum and even others -wait till ur richer finish school and have a better job lol hahah. lol i finish my school previously but no related field of work and even if i was to start i won;t be making much in the entry level job we all have to start as. the thing is why wait when ur richer, why not find a women or date now when she wants u for u and not what u can give and get her-that just such a turnoff. i mean its not like i'm going ot pay all the time, just sometimes. and who said the stuff u do has to always be $ and money related. tennis, hiking, coffee,golf, mini golf, even try out skiing , snowb , going to see a band play at a bar, its not all fine dining and eat out eat out. that just so boring after a while. i'm into sports and activities kind of guy, i luv b ball watch it and play it, so she better be sporty atheltic type too , not the oh oh mall and shopping all day type. and fashionable bit** are not my type.

even when u grad from college its not even gurantee u goin find work in ur field. i have friend of friend who went to univ for bach in sci and found not work related and had to go back and do something else. bach in pscy =no job too. u think u finish u getting making tons of cash, if ur lucky. i finish my schooling in college for computers lookign for IT job and they pay like 12-15/hr -ya wait till i am rich and find the girl-if u want a money grubber materialistic girl-that such a turnoff

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

ya thats true. why pay for someone u barely to hardly even now. ppl say on this forum and even others -wait till ur richer finish school and have a better job lol hahah. ...

You see that's the thing, a lot of guys who use the whole paying for someone you barely know to make a good impression don't seem to understand that the money is just secondary. The question is what exactly has she done that merits a free dinner other than accept the invitation?

A lot of guys need something like dinner in order not to have the focus of the date solely on themselves. "Hey, if they don't make a good impression themselves at least she'll like the dinner." WTF???!!

Now if you've qualified her and have determined that she is truly interested in you as opposed to just using you as her benefactor of free food it would then make sense to treat her to dinner every so often; especially if she does something similar for you. If she can't afford dinner then fine, have her cook at home; same thing for guys too, you could cook. But at least take the time to find out if you both are interested in one another first, you don't need food to do that (or at least you shouldn't need it).

Like I said earlier, it may not matter if you don't get the chance to go on many dates. Sure you can blow $100 or more on a chick, especially if you only go out once or twice a month. But if you are spinning plates like you should you may have three or more in the air. Now to keep them interested you see each one at least once a week, you'll be spending more than $100 a week (over $5000 a year), AND YOU HAVEN'T EVEN QUALIFIED HER YET!!! Seems like a waste to me.

 

[movistar]

Do NOT date women over 30. They are past their expiration date and are more likely to expect you "not to be cheap" indefinitely.

Do NOT date single mothers. Their financial and familial burdens are a bad investment of your resources in comparison to a woman not so encumbered.

If this is about sex the above are actually easier to sleep with in my opinion.

 

[iqqi]

The question is what exactly has she done that merits a free dinner other than accept the invitation?

Not picking on you specifically, Francisco, because you aren't the only one that put it this way. As in "free dinner".

To me, that brings to mind a person taking a homeless man on the corner to a nice restaurant. There is no expectation or want for anything in the future, you are just doing something for someone. Maybe you get some interesting conversation out of it.

When you take your mother out to eat, do you look at it like you are giving her a free dinner?

Just because you are treating, doesn't make it "a free dinner".

I am just amused that is how some of you see it.

Do you ask for gas money too, if you pick her up? Gas IS expensive these days. Maybe you should even charge for your time? Say, $50 an hour. Time is money!

Where do you draw the line.

I'd be interested in hearing your views on how gas and time, and other factors even, are not the same.


Here is my view. You don't charge for gas, or your time, because you are in a dance. The dance of seduction. You are interested in seducing (wooing, impressing, whatever) some hot young thing. The last thing you want to do is come across as cheap. Part of your allure, is showing a chick a good time, during which you get to know each other better, and if things go well, things will progress.

If the only way you can think of to ensure that you don't come across as a door mat or "afc", is to not pay for dinner... lol! Stop thinking that being a gentleman = afc. It is OTHER things that will put you in that category. Namely letting someone treat you like crap.

Of course, if you don't want to spend money, there ARE other things you could do, as someone pointed out.

There are plenty of free activities to do. This could be more fun, anyways. And you will stand out.

 

[Nighthawk]

iqqi, you call men who don't pay 'cheap.' IMO it's women who use lame-ass notions of 'chivalry' to get out of paying their way that are cheap.

When I got back in the game after a nine year relationship I started doing something I'd never done before - buying women drinks. And I could tell pretty quickly this was putting me in a the 'chump' category, and lowering sexual attraction from them. I stopped.

With my current girlfriend I explained on our first 'date' that I wouldn't be footing the bill, not because I was cheap but because I didn't see how it was fair, I think it muddies the water, and I'm not Mr Free Drinks guy. She was fine with this, and we are still together nearly two years later.

 

[iqqi]

iqqi, you call men who don't pay 'cheap.' IMO it's women who use lame-ass notions of 'chivalry' to get out of paying their way that are cheap.

I didn't call nobody nothin', if you misunderstood.

I just pointed out how you will be percieved by a vast amount of women, who do not need you to pay their way, actually.

And I have never personally considered a guy who bought me a drink as a chump. If I considered him a chump, it was because of something else that he did. Buying a drink does not a chump make, in my book, unless they are trying to "buy" something with a drink. That is tacky and chump behavior.

 

[Nighthawk]

Ok, I get that you distanced yourself from the 'cheap' jibe by saying it's what other women think. But you also say it's 'true' and how you will come across negatively if you don't pay for everything.

Sorry but its true, fellas.

-----------NOT MY OPINION! JUST what I see and observe as a woman------

Most of my girlfriends would be (and have been in past experiences) less attracted to a man who comes across as cheap... which is how you will come across. If you are cheap... how generous will you be in bed? If you are inconsiderate, how will that translate in terms of how you treat us in the future? Get where I'm going?

It is just a ritual that is expected, kind of like how it is expected for the man to pursue, and the woman to entice. Its one of the things about men and women. The ones of you who are constantly spouting off about how "man is the stronger sex" should understand some of the other implications, when dealing with the "fairer sex".

Besides, it is also a known and scientifically proven ;-) fact that men want bootie. Women know this. Women make men prove themselves worthy.

Don't get mad at me for saying it, its the way it IS.

Is there alternatives? Yeah. Is this the only way? Of course not. Are there women who won't think less of you? Sure. Really... there are...

Your advice is the usual female stand-point. You believe you like men to act one way, you discuss this with your friends and all agree you like a man to behave in a certain, often AFC way - then find yourself irresistibly attracted to those men who ignore the 'rules' and make you want to prove yourself worthy of HIM.

You can tell us you are an exception if you like, we have no way of checking out your sexual history to see who you have chased and who you have let fruitlessly chase you. But in my experience there is no need to spend more on your dates/women than they spend on you, and in fact it is counter-productive.

 

[Nighthawk]

Having said that, I would probably spring for a coffee in the same way I would with a friend. But I would be sure to add 'you can pay next time' or 'and you cover the tip' to not look too AFC. I wish these caveats were unnecessary and such small acts of of generosity or kindness weren't taken as weakness by women, but the fact is they generally are.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Not picking on you specifically, Francisco, ...

Yes you are!!!

When you take your mother out to eat, do you look at it like you are giving her a free dinner?

Apples and oranges. I have a relationship with my mother, she isn't someone that I had just met. Big difference.

Just because you are treating, doesn't make it "a free dinner".
I am just amused that is how some of you see it.

Someone (either sex) treats another person to dinner but it's not a free dinner? That is very amusing. Why isn't it?

Do you ask for gas money too, if you pick her up? Gas IS expensive these days. Maybe you should even charge for your time? Say, $50 an hour. Time is money!

Women typically find a way to the meeting place on their own. It's the first date and nowadays how often do women actually give their address to a guy who they barely know. Hell, a lot of guys can't even get their phone number.

Here is my view. You don't charge for gas, or your time, because you are in a dance. The dance of seduction. You are interested in seducing (wooing, impressing, whatever) some hot young thing. The last thing you want to do is come across as cheap. Part of your allure, is showing a chick a good time, during which you get to know each other better, and if things go well, things will progress.

This may be true for women who are easily woo'd by material things. Basically what a guy does is more important than who he is. Now I agree with what you said that the typical woman is impressed by such things. What I'm challenging is the fact that men do not need to settle for just the typical woman.

It's disconcerting to realize that through the life and death of a relationship women are more concerned with a man's monetary wealth than his wealth of character. From the first dinner date though spousal support, it's all about the money (at least with a typical woman).

If the only way you can think of to ensure that you don't come across as a door mat or "afc", is to not pay for dinner... lol! Stop thinking that being a gentleman = afc. It is OTHER things that will put you in that category. Namely letting someone treat you like crap.

It would be a lot easier for guys to do that if women didn't expect to be catered to during the wooing process. It would be nice if the wooing was reciprocated but that's seldom the case with the typical woman. If it were the seduction community wouldn't be as large as it is. You said that seduction is a dance, well it takes two people to dance. Oh wait, the man always leads...

Of course, if you don't want to spend money, there ARE other things you could do, as someone pointed out.

There are plenty of free activities to do. This could be more fun, anyways. And you will stand out.

And that is what I have always said. When a guy begins sarging a woman it isn't necessary to cater to her needs (unless you actually want a woman in your life who needs to be catered to). If a guy spends time with a woman and there an ongoing, mutual interest between the two beyond the initial infatuation, it would make sense to take things to a level of mutual appreciation. Treating one another to dinner, gifts, whatever; but at least there has been something substantial established between the two.

Damn, I forgot to turn on the [rant] switch...

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

iqqi, you call men who don't pay 'cheap.' IMO it's women who use lame-ass notions of 'chivalry' to get out of paying their way that are cheap.

When I got back in the game after a nine year relationship I started doing something I'd never done before - buying women drinks. And I could tell pretty quickly this was putting me in a the 'chump' category, and lowering sexual attraction from them. I stopped.

With my current girlfriend I explained on our first 'date' that I wouldn't be footing the bill, not because I was cheap but because I didn't see how it was fair, I think it muddies the water, and I'm not Mr Free Drinks guy. She was fine with this, and we are still together nearly two years later.

This is why when a woman who I've just met suggests that we meet for dinner I tell her straight away that we should keep it light and just meet for coffee and keep it light; no pressure. It's an easy qualifier for me to see what she's about, does she want to get to know me or does she want to be fed.

There have been times that they say that they'd rather go to dinner and that they wouldn't go out with a guy who wouldn't buy them dinner (to iqqi's account that there are women who won't). That's fine with me, I don't go out with women who believe that. Better we find out these things sooner than later.