Why, scientifically-speaking, do nice guys finish last?

MrJibbles

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Because women are attracted to how a man makes them feel EMOTIONALLY. Although a girl knows that a given alpha male will be "bad" for him, she can't help but feel attracted to him. She knows deep down inside that the guy will probably never call back after hooking up or, if he still decides to stay with her, he will end up treating her like crap. In short, female instincts haven't caught up with modern society.

I am no Noam Chomsky, but this is what I have gathered from various articles and science books that I have read. It all comes down to evolutionary psychology.

A shy, timid, unaggressive, unconfident male not only wouldn't have been able to protect his family from predators, but would lack the confidence and social skills and interpersonal boldness to go out into the scary world and establish alliances. If alliances are established, protection for offspring increases, and a wider inventory of resources (food, social support, weapons, intellectual resources, etc) become available.

In the days of hunter-gatherer societies, this would have been vital. If a person or family became isolated from the herd and unable to keep up with their fellow men, they would die out in the unpredictable wild within days, if not hours.

This being said, hunter-gather societies are almost non-existent today. We now live in a much more intricately complex, industrial, urban-based society in which traits of confidence don't matter as much, at least with regards to survival value. Having a shy boyfriend won't get a woman or her children killed out in the wild. At least in the developed world, it is no longer a dog-eat-dog world. Savage grunts or rabid wolves won't kill us if we leave the house, especially if we live in a densely-populated metropolitan area.

Nowadays, the beta male usually, through time, gets the highest quality woman. By "through time", I refer to when a girl reaches her late 20s or early 30s, her looks begin to fade, and her biological clock starts ticking. Although he is timid and has low aggression and testosterone levels, he rarely, if ever, gets into trouble with the law and therefore can provide for a woman and offspring simply by means of having a modern-day resource known as "money." By having influence in the upper-financial echelons of society, he likewise gains alliances with other beta males with access to such resources.

Meanwhile, the confident "alpha" male, although sexual-attractive to the female on a purely animalistic, instinctual level, generally ends up too aggressive and bold to function in such a tame, developed society. Instead, his impulses to take advantage of women, rape, steal, pillage, threat, and intimidate end him up incarcerated rather than providing a safe environment for his offspring and a big tasty buffalo meal for his family to eat that he killed while out hunting.

Of course things aren't black and white, and "jerks" and "nice guys" are not the only two categories women put men into. Most confident men, in the classic sense of the word, do not end up in jail. Fortunately, a system called "Game" exists, to help men gain the resources to attract high-quality women without having to be the bug-eyed, natural-born, criminally-inclined, predator-like alpha male.

Confidence is, simply-put, a sign of high fertility. Although society has changed dramatically over the past few thousands of years, not enough generations have progressed to allow genetic variation to catch up and let the beta male prevail in the end, at least on from a sexual stand-point.

Jesus said "The meek shall inherit the earth." History has proved otherwise. Look at people like Hitler, Mao, Ivan the Terrible, Arnold Schwarzenegger.... all these man have obtained power through sheer Machiavellianist, alpha-fuelled power. Women are attracted to power. Power provides social connections and a higher chance to survive.
Remember, gentlemen, that "nice guys finish last." This is sad, but true. Don't hate the player, hate the game. That being said, learn some game to diminish your beta-male ways.
 

Bible_Belt

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"The meek shall inherit the earth."

He meant after they die. The word for 'the Earth' translates from Hebrew to English very poorly. It means "everything."

But yes, confidence is attractive. Anything risky attracts women: racing, fast cars, motorcycles, boxing/mma fighting. If you are doing something stupidly dangerous, there is a woman out there who will be hot for you because of it.
 

floydb25

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There's too much generalizing and assuming, here. Everyone knows when someone is bad for them, but continue chasing after them because of how they make them feel. Men do the same **** with bad girls who use them for sex, string them along, mess with their heads, play them, etc. Just look on this forum. You'd swear half of the posters are women.

Attraction is non-gender based. We are just as guilty of the rollercoaster of emotion addiction as women are. We wear our hearts on a sleeve, and think with our emotions. We also go after the manipulative hot girl that everyone wants, and nobody gets. She has all these options, is high class, doesn't care about anyone, and guys are still pining after her, and trying to gain her affection and approval. There is nothing different between men and women when it comes to attraction, and really dating in general.

The only thing that happens is, you learn as you get older and experience these things. It's not like women seek after bad guys forever - just like we don't chase after bad girls forever. We all learn that having a rush of emotions, falling head over heels, someone presenting a challenge, and having all these options doesn't equate to love or quality. We just like things that excite us when we're younger. We also don't realize the harm these people can do to us. Both men and women learn what is good for them, and start thinking with their head instead.

Most men also don't want a shy, passive, insecure, clingy nice girl. They want a confident, assertive, sexual girl. Our standards are identical, and we chase after the same things - for the same reasons. We also mistake bad qualities for good ones - just like they do with jerks.

I don't see much difference, really. Guys complain about the same things girls do. They also seek after the same things for the same reasons. They get attached, and find it difficult to leave. They go after the hot girl who gives them a rush of emotions. Blah blah. It's all the same.
 

zekko

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Mr. Jibbles said:
A shy, timid, unaggressive, unconfident male not only wouldn't have been able to protect his family from predators
Why is a nice guy automatically "shy, timid, unaggressive, and unconfident"? I will never fully understand where PUAs get the idea for this stereotype.

To me, "nice" simply means that you have the social skills necessary to treat other people with a certain basic amount of respect. If you don't have any of these skills, you are basically an antisocial personality. Is this what everybody here is aspiring to become?

You can rate someone on how nice they are from a scale of 1 to 10. Everyone would fall on the scale somewhere, most people would fall in the middle. This stereotype that PUAs perpetuate seems completely ridiculous to me, I don't see the logic in it. It's based on a 100% false assumption.
 

DonGorgon

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Here is why: The same energy that makes bad boys "bad" is the same energy that sexually arouses the human female. Its all very carnal and not logical. The goos guy is simply less likely to randomly impregnate her which is all nature really wants from us so the human female instinctively gravitates to the drug dealing murderous felonious thieving drug addicted thugs of the world.

So what is a good guy to do????

Well he can wait around and sulk and wait fro the thugs left over broken damaged women seek him out in their 40s.... OR he can do what works: Pretend to be bad.. YES it works!!! make up stories of crime ridden adventures... disappear suddenly from her and give vague explanations .. She will love it no matter how false it is..
 

DonGorgon

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Here is why: The same energy that makes bad boys "bad" is the same energy that sexually arouses the human female. Its all very carnal and not logical. The goos guy is simply less likely to randomly impregnate her which is all nature really wants from us so the human female instinctively gravitates to the drug dealing murderous felonious thieving drug addicted thugs of the world.

So what is a good guy to do????

Well he can wait around and sulk and wait fro the thugs left over broken damaged women seek him out in their 40s.... OR he can do what works: Pretend to be bad.. YES it works!!! make up stories of crime ridden adventures... disappear suddenly from her and give vague explanations .. She will love it no matter how false it is..
 

DonGorgon

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Here is why: The same energy that makes bad boys "bad" is the same energy that sexually arouses the human female. Its all very carnal and not logical. The goos guy is simply less likely to randomly impregnate her which is all nature really wants from us so the human female instinctively gravitates to the drug dealing murderous felonious thieving drug addicted thugs of the world.

So what is a good guy to do????

Well he can wait around and sulk and wait fro the thugs left over broken damaged women seek him out in their 40s.... OR he can do what works: Pretend to be bad.. YES it works!!! make up stories of crime ridden adventures... disappear suddenly from her and give vague explanations .. She will love it no matter how false it is..
 

DonGorgon

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Here is why: The same energy that makes bad boys "bad" is the same energy that sexually arouses the human female. Its all very carnal and not logical. The goos guy is simply less likely to randomly impregnate her which is all nature really wants from us so the human female instinctively gravitates to the drug dealing murderous felonious thieving drug addicted thugs of the world.

So what is a good guy to do????

Well he can wait around and sulk and wait fro the thugs left over broken damaged women seek him out in their 40s.... OR he can do what works: Pretend to be bad.. YES it works!!! make up stories of crime ridden adventures... disappear suddenly from her and give vague explanations .. She will love it no matter how false it is..
 

Mike32ct

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It's mostly looks, not being good or bad. It's just the case that many really hot people (both men and women) are jerks/b&tches because they are spoiled with attention.

Take the ugliest guy you can picture, say very short, fat, ugly face, balding, no muscle, etc., and tell him to act like a jerk. See if he gets laid and report back to me lol.

Then take a hot guy who is a total sweetheart and see if he gets laid.

My money is on the hot guy.

I don't deny the fact that a lot of women are attracted to evil, such as criminals, thugs, etc., but I still think it's mostly about looks with the typical bad boy.
 

zekko

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DonGorgon said:
Here is why: The same energy that makes bad boys "bad" is the same energy that sexually arouses the human female.
Wow, that is probably the most incorrect thing I've ever read on this forum. It simply isn't true. I have never observed this to be true in my entire 51 years. There is a certain type of girl who is attracted to criminals and thugs, but they are the minority, and certainly not girls worth having.

DonGorgon said:
Well he can wait around and sulk and wait fro the thugs left over broken damaged women seek him out in their 40s.... OR he can do what works: Pretend to be bad.
I wouldn't lower myself. I've had my share of women, and never in my life have I had to "pretend to be bad" to attract them or get them horny. My expectation is that she will be attracted to me for what I am, or she can fvck off. To pretend to be bad would be to pretend to be something less than what I am. I am better than any low life "bad boy".

Mike32ct said:
I don't deny the fact that a lot of women are attracted to evil, such as criminals, thugs, etc., but I still think it's mostly about looks with the typical bad boy.
Agreed. Whenever they show a bad boy on TV or in the movies, he usually looks like some sort of model. That's where the appeal is.
 

ArcBound

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I agree with Don Gorgon to a point.

I've found in my experience a lot of girls like to be dominated verbally and physically. The fact is bad boys always have that dominating factor. Nice guys may not necessarily be pushovers but they will never inspire lust in a woman the same way a powerful man will dominate his woman.
 

Mike32ct

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I will also add that the guy's physical size is a big part of his looks from a female's perspective. Plenty of guys do NOT necessarily have a handsome face, but they have height, or muscles, or broad shoulders or just a big stocky build. Or some combination of those.

So yes, I agree with the physical dominance part, but it is still tied to looks because the big guy is often considered good looking BECAUSE of his size, not necessarily other aesthetic features. Then the verbal dominance is just a side effect that goes with the territory.

So what I'm saying is looks and physical dominance are often one in the same.

Even the skinniest, gayest, metro pretty boy needs some decent height to complete his looks.
 

zekko

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ArcBound said:
I've found in my experience a lot of girls like to be dominated verbally and physically. The fact is bad boys always have that dominating factor. Nice guys may not necessarily be pushovers but they will never inspire lust in a woman the same way a powerful man will dominate his woman.
I am most definitely physically dominant in the bedroom, and I most definitely hold the frame in the relationship. I might not describe myself as a "nice guy", but I am most definitely not a "bad boy". What does a person's social disposition have to do with how "powerful" a man he is, or how dominant he is over a woman?

If a woman wants to be with a boy, she can seek out a "bad boy". If she wants to be with a real man, she can seek me out. I have never known a girl to choose a bad boy type over me. And if she did, I would LMAO at her stupidity, and realize she was nothing but low quality gutter trash.

There is a type of woman who goes for the bad boy type. I've seen it over and over. And they are trash, pure and simple. Nothing but trash.

A high value male will outdo a bad boy every day of the week.
 

st_99

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Bottom line: "nice guy" is generally associated with being shy and timid.

This may or may not be true on a case by case basis but thats the stereotype people are refering to. In that case, of course they are going to have less sex. duh.


When a guy says to a girl "can i kiss you?" thats not very arousing.. lol.
 

floydb25

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st_99 said:
Bottom line: "nice guy" is generally associated with being shy and timid.

This may or may not be true on a case by case basis but thats the stereotype people are refering to. In that case, of course they are going to have less sex. duh.


When a guy says to a girl "can i kiss you?" thats not very arousing.. lol.
Was just about to say the same thing - in response to Zekko's post. We're talking about the stereotypical nice guy who finishes last. Nice people don't finish last. Most nice guys / girls aren't even nice. They are annoying, whiney, clingy, obsessive, insecure, weak, have low self-esteem, seek approval, sulk in self-pity, play the blame game, feel entitled to the world, etc. None of this is attractive to anyone. They are usually so consumed by bitterness that they aren't even nice.

All of the so-called nice girls that I dated did nothing but ***** and complain about how awful their lives are, how people take advantage of them, no one cares about them, and how those in power are the worst. This, after allowing people to take advantage of them, abuse their power on them, and not do anything to improve their lives. They set up a lot of these unfair situations towards themselves - then ***** about it. They are also desperate and clingy.

I live next to a nice guy, and he does the same things. He lets people take advantage of him, and goes out of his way for them - only to ***** about it afterwards. It's like, shut up.
 

garruk

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im a nice guy. i was raised by my mom and my aunt, (dad was always on business). i treat women with respect. i went to private school. i went to cotillion (etiquette school). i wear pink shirts. i used to get picked on in middle school. i didnt lose my virginity until college. i like sailing.


i'm also 8% body fat, graduated a top 25 college, and a top 20 graduate school, have a high paying job, an awesome bachelor pad, a large social network.

i constantly "friendzone" my female friends. sluts are willing to ONS me because they think thats how a relationship is started. the few good girls all want to date me because they want to take me home to mom.


nice guys dont finish last. its just that the guys who finish last are often nice.
theres a difference!

(hot days have lots of ice cream sold, but just because alot of ice cream is sold.. doesnt mean its a hot day)
 

backbreaker

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The reason nice guys finish last is because most nice guys have nothing to offer besides being nice. there is nothing wrong with being "nice". i'm not a jerk or anything.

the problem with nice guys is simply that the guys think that niceness is a virtue and it isn't. Nice guys think, or hope, whatever, that they deserve women on the premise that they are nice to them. in other words, most nice guys have nothing to offer besides being nice.

niceness is a vicious cycle. the more you don't have to offer a woman the more nicer / afc you become.

it's really that simple . yes this site does help, a lot, but at some point yo0u have to be able to offer a woman something. you have to give a woman a reason to be with you besides being nice to her.

women don't like you because you are too nice. women don't like you because you have nothing to offer besides being nice.
 

Chamber36

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sounds like a bunch of over analytical bullcrap to me.

The point is that "jerk" characteristics are associated with Alpha's.

If a man doesn't have to wait hand and foot on a female, that must make him higher value than her. It's that simple. In a room with 1 chair, the most high value person sits down. That doesn't make that person a jerk.
 

zekko

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backbreaker said:
at some point yo0u have to be able to offer a woman something. you have to give a woman a reason to be with you besides being nice to her.
Or around here, a better quote might be "At some point you have to give a woman a reason to be with you besides being a jerk to her".

floyd25 said:
We're talking about the stereotypical nice guy who finishes last. Nice people don't finish last. Most nice guys / girls aren't even nice. They are annoying, whiney, clingy, obsessive, insecure, weak, have low self-esteem, seek approval, sulk in self-pity, play the blame game, feel entitled to the world, etc. None of this is attractive to anyone. They are usually so consumed by bitterness that they aren't even nice.
This is exactly what I was talking about in my first post. I will never fully understand where the PUAs get this stereotype for the nice guy. As you point out, their "nice guy" isn't even really nice.

People need a certain amount of "niceness" to survive and get along with people. Most likely it's a bell curve. On one extreme you treat people like garbage and no one will like you. On the other extreme you are too nice, too concilliatory, too eager to sublimate yourself to curry favor. Where people want to be is in the middle, that's where they will have a healthy social life.
 

nismo-4

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I like what backbreaker said.

They say nice guys finish last, but from what I can see, I don't even think they finish at all.

They say treat a woman like a princess and she'll love it. It being the attention you're giving her before and after she's been in another castle!

Nice guys can finish first if they are hot, famous, or millionaires. Women say they don't get turned on by this stuff, but they actually do!

Also, women prefer exciting lies over boring truths. :rolleyes:
 
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