Why, scientifically-speaking, do nice guys finish last?

[Chamber36]

sounds like a bunch of over analytical bullcrap to me.

The point is that "jerk" characteristics are associated with Alpha's.

If a man doesn't have to wait hand and foot on a female, that must make him higher value than her. It's that simple. In a room with 1 chair, the most high value person sits down. That doesn't make that person a jerk.

@ backbreaker nice guys often have a lot to offer financially. I thought women often saw them as providers.

The female just wants the jerk's sperm so that the child won't be a push-over.

The female also of course wants a nice guy to provide of the child. So there's a bit of controversy going on in their head. I'd say the best is if we became well-rounded men so that we don't let anyone walk all over us("jerk"/"alpha" characteristics), and also to have the capacity to open up and teach a child something("nice guy"(and possibly also alpha) characteristics), I suppose.

So what we really need to work on is becoming like an untouchable mountain and well-rounded as well. You just got to be street-smart. *******s will be *******s.

If you get your feelings hurt by an *******, then that means you expected something different from the *******. Doesn't make the ******* wrong, it makes your expectation of the ******* wrong.

 

[backbreaker]

sounds like a bunch of over analytical bullcrap to me.

The point is that "jerk" characteristics are associated with Alpha's.

If a man doesn't have to wait hand and foot on a female, that must make him higher value than her. It's that simple. In a room with 1 chair, the most high value person sits down. That doesn't make that person a jerk.

@ backbreaker nice guys often have a lot to offer financially. I thought women often saw them as providers.

The female just wants the jerk's sperm so that the child won't be a push-over.

The female also of course wants a nice guy to provide of the child. So there's a bit of controversy going on in their head. I'd say the best is if we became well-rounded men so that we don't let anyone walk all over us("jerk"/"alpha" characteristics), and also to have the capacity to open up and teach a child something("nice guy"(and possibly also alpha) characteristics), I suppose.

So what we really need to work on is becoming like an untouchable mountain and well-rounded as well. You just got to be street-smart. *******s will be *******s.

If you get your feelings hurt by an *******, then that means you expected something different from the *******. Doesn't make the ******* wrong, it makes your expectation of the ******* wrong.

and most of those nice guys have women.

this board is very out of touch with reality. the avg "guy" has, i odn't want tos ay no problem getting laid, but they have women, good looking women at that.

every last one of my wife's friends has boyfriends who are what we would classify as major AFC's. this is just normal accepted behavior by society. and they are all for the most part attractive in shape women who guys would date. I'm not saying they are in control of their relationship or even that they are in control of the relationship, but they are in relationships and are having sex.


the difference between the guys here t he guys I know in real life is that the guys in real life have other **** going for them besides being nice.

the guys that are here, come here after years of being rejected by the opposite sex and are told that the reason they can't get laid is that they are being nice, ou have to be a bad boy. no the reason you can't get laid is because ou suck as a person. and i can say that because at one point i was in the same boat. i was 19, with no future,no money, nothing besides being nice. i did not work out, i wasn't a fun guy to be around, i had low self esteem i had no confidence in myself, etc

it wasn't because i was nice. it was becuase i sucked at life at the time why i couldn't get a woman. the more i sucked at life the nicer i became.

in other words, being overly nice is the outward manifest of you sucking ass in real life. it's not the core issue.

I'm not saying you have to become a millionaire or be drop dead hot to get laid, but you have to have some **** going for you besides being nice. can you dress? do you havve anything resembling a future? are you fun to be around? do you have an exciting life? do you have any talents? do you like yourself?

the avg guy who has a decent life all he has to do to open the flood gates is get over his fear of approaching women.

i could take an avg guy, who is super AFC and in a month if he is decent looking he would have plates out the ass if i can just get him to approach women. nothing more. doesn't have to know **** else from this site.

 

[floydb25]

Zekko: The phrase isn't meant to be taken literally. It's just a term for a person who displays certain characteristics - none of which has to do with being nice. The person usually is nice, but only because of insecurity, and the need to be wanted. It's not genuine kindness. Nice guy is just a term. Creepy nice would be more accurate, but it is what it is.

Judge: The problem with the princess approach isn't the fact that you're treating someone with respect and being nice - its trying to hard, and seeking their approval. It's the desperation in how this is accomplished that doesn't work. This again ties into the nice guy approach and mindset. If I treat her like a queen, and give her everything she wants - then, she'll like me. He's also terrified of losing her, and will let her get away with anything, never say no or stand up for himself. All he wants is for her to like him, and he will do anything to gain her approval - at the expense of his own dignity, morals, etc. If she wants FWBs, he'll gladly accept - even if its not what he wants. As long as he can have her any way he can get her. It's the pedestalization, insecurity, and desperation that turns women off. He's also likely to be extremely clingy and obsessive.

Nice guys are so insecure about their own worth that they try to compensate for it by being annoying and clingy. Or at least, that's the result of their over-bearing nature.

This is the kind of nice guy that finishes last. Nice people do not... Unless he's chasing after a *****. But, everyone finishes last with jerks, so whatever.

 

[djokovic77]

Agreed;'nice guys' are usually pushovers and obsequious...no one finds that sexy, in comparison to a jerk, jerks might be found sexier by women. But the ideal man is not a jerk, he is a scholar and a gentleman, but has pride in himself and know what he stands for. Doesn't bow down to anyone and represents a strong masculine and protective presence to the woman. Basically gives off an in control and decent vibe.

I'd much rather be a Cary Grant type then a gangbanger with tats. Jerks don't finish first and nice guys don't finish last; only pushovers finish last and usually even that is relative to some unrealistic expectations.

 

[Chamber36]

and most of those nice guys have women.

this board is very out of touch with reality. the avg "guy" has, i odn't want tos ay no problem getting laid, but they have women, good looking women at that.

every last one of my wife's friends has boyfriends who are what we would classify as major AFC's. this is just normal accepted behavior by society. and they are all for the most part attractive in shape women who guys would date. I'm not saying they are in control of their relationship or even that they are in control of the relationship, but they are in relationships and are having sex.


the difference between the guys here t he guys I know in real life is that the guys in real life have other **** going for them besides being nice.

the guys that are here, come here after years of being rejected by the opposite sex and are told that the reason they can't get laid is that they are being nice, ou have to be a bad boy. no the reason you can't get laid is because ou suck as a person. and i can say that because at one point i was in the same boat. i was 19, with no future,no money, nothing besides being nice. i did not work out, i wasn't a fun guy to be around, i had low self esteem i had no confidence in myself, etc

it wasn't because i was nice. it was becuase i sucked at life at the time why i couldn't get a woman. the more i sucked at life the nicer i became.

in other words, being overly nice is the outward manifest of you sucking ass in real life. it's not the core issue.

I'm not saying you have to become a millionaire or be drop dead hot to get laid, but you have to have some **** going for you besides being nice. can you dress? do you havve anything resembling a future? are you fun to be around? do you have an exciting life? do you have any talents? do you like yourself?

See the problem we face that most guys who are still "plugged in" don't, is that we can see more easily who we're compatible with and who we aren't compatible with.

For them it's more of an "opposites attract" dynamic, where we don't really want to waste time.

I guess to them guys who've been unplugged are "jaded". But we all have to use our knowledge the best we can.

here a guy is talking about dealing with women who are all about the matrix. I watched it yesterday.

It basically come down to pump and dump though.

 

[zekko]

Zekko: The phrase isn't meant to be taken literally. It's just a term for a person who displays certain characteristics - none of which has to do with being nice. The person usually is nice, but only because of insecurity, and the need to be wanted. It's not genuine kindness. Nice guy is just a term. Creepy nice would be more accurate, but it is what it is.

You're right. I just think it's a poor choice of words.
I think the nice guy term originally comes from guys who were wanting to make victims out of themselves. "I'm a nice guy, but women don't like nice guys, poor me". But the real problem was they were boring, wimpy, and approval seeking. Or whatever it was.

All he wants is for her to like him, and he will do anything to gain her approval - at the expense of his own dignity, morals, etc

So guys get into pickup and learn women like jerks. So the guy starts acting like a jerk. At the expense of his own dignity and morals. I can't think of anything more desperate and approval seeking than that.

As some people have said, the "nice guy (stereotype)" and the jerk are two sides of the same coin.

 

[FairShake]

Younger guys get too caught up on the word "nice." In part it's women's fault since they preface their rejections with "You're a nice guy but...". But I preface my rejections like that too. When I am letting someone know something about themselves without trying to be a **** I say "You're a nice guy but..." too. It's a way of letting people down gently not casting judgement for kindness. I think it also appeals to our jaded nature since we think lowly about people and the "nice guy vs. bad boy" debate dovetails nicely with a lot of people's low opinion of society.

Some of the least ass having guys I've known are complete azzholes. Jerks in every way, people without friends, and especially without charm or diplomacy. These guys were stubborn and did things their own way. They also tended to end up alone. People couldn't stand them. Let's face it, you need SOME charm to make friendships and relationships and charm means being friendly and nice and having people like you. I've never seen a deliberately mean person be anything but a total loser.

But "nice" isn't the problem with about 90% of women and 100% of the women you WANT to date. Lack of balls is the problem. No balls to escalate, no balls to flirt, no balls to challenge, no balls to be yourself. I don't call being willing to step up and try to have relationships with women "bad" by any means. Plenty of nice guys know what they want and go for it without worrying about what people will think. That, combined with charm and decent looks will get you laid by many great looking women.

I'm a dork. A big goof who is friendly to everyone. And FAR from good looking. But if I like a girl I flirt and try to take it somewhere. Sometimes it works.

 

[perseverance]

"Nice guys" finish last because their "niceness" is just a facade. Sooner or later the girl will see through such a facade and that's when it goes downhill.

When I describe myself, nice is not a word that enters my mind, I'm a good person, but I am capable of doing and saying both good and bad things and I never hide this reality from people I meet.

Guys who act nice by writing love poetry to a girl, or buy her gifts do so, not out of kindness, they do it to try and woo the girl into having sex etc. The nice guy mantra is just another form of manipulation, nothing more.

 

[floydb25]

Fairshake: Completely agree. No one likes a complete jerk or loser. I hate all of my exes, and some girls hated me when I was a jerk, as well. The attraction came from looks, challenge, and trying to change them. But moreso, believing what they claim about themselves, and assuming there's this great person underneath it all. That, being a jerk is a charade, or a phase. You learn that this is futile; a loser is always going to be a loser. There is only so much a person can take before they throw in the towel.

This is why, again, its mostly the young girls that go after jerks. They don't know this yet. No one settles with a decent guy later on - they just realize that jerks are completely worthless, and not worth fighting over, or giving chances to, or trying to figure out and save. A loser is a loser. They also get sick of the drama, chaos, and heart-break. Things change as you get older.

Zekko: Most jerks ARE former nice guys. They hide behind a mask to conceal their insecurities and weaknesses. They're bullies who were once bullied. They're still weak, insecure cowards underneath it all. They just act like they don't care, treat people like crap, use them, and push them away - because they believe no one will like them.

 

[CCFCmid]

You guys are really not touching the science here and are coming up with unmeasurable concepts such as 'bad boy energy'....

You would have to break that down further if you wanted to be scientific into a number of different variables....

Really simply, in terms of evolutionary psychology if you want to understand attraction, read up on social rank theory by Price and Sloman. That is science.

The interaction of social defeat and resulting assertive or submissive behaviours which show the value of the male. The female reads this for social rank, which influences (almost exclusively) mate choice.

It is in black and white and has been for 20 years yet no-one reads this stuff. I am a psychologist.

 

[bigneil]

Nice guys are supplicating beta males who try to make up for their lack of courage by being nice.

For example, as TSA is feeling up your girlfriend right in front of you on the way to vacation, if you're nice you'll say "Hey, as long as she's not doing anything illegal, I don't mind if they blatantly are by violating the Fourth Amendment right to avoid unlawful search and seizure" (without probable cause and a warrant signed by an impartial judge stating he's convinced that evidence obtained lawfully convinced him that she PROBABLY has a bomb, not POSSIBLY because some guy in Amsterdam MIGHT HAVE if you believe the official lies used to promote body scanners). But an Alpha male will look TSA in the eye and tell them they are the real terrorists. He'll point out that you're more likely to get struck by lightning twice than die from a terrorist bomb on a plane, so he's not giving up his rights our of irrational fear. He'll write to his senators and hopefully like Orlando/Sanford airport they'll boot those minimum wage Blueshirt goons out.

 

[TonyBaloney]

You guys are really not touching the science here and are coming up with unmeasurable concepts such as 'bad boy energy'....

You would have to break that down further if you wanted to be scientific into a number of different variables....

Really simply, in terms of evolutionary psychology if you want to understand attraction, read up on social rank theory by Price and Sloman. That is science.

The interaction of social defeat and resulting assertive or submissive behaviours which show the value of the male. The female reads this for social rank, which influences (almost exclusively) mate choice.

It is in black and white and has been for 20 years yet no-one reads this stuff. I am a psychologist.

WOW - Thanks for this industry insight CCCFCmid!!!!!!! Can you expand further on your enquires; For example, how is it explaned that a woman may choose a thug over a respectable candidate?

Please add as much to this that you feel is applicable........

 

[Mike32ct]

You guys are really not touching the science here and are coming up with unmeasurable concepts such as 'bad boy energy'....

You would have to break that down further if you wanted to be scientific into a number of different variables....

Really simply, in terms of evolutionary psychology if you want to understand attraction, read up on social rank theory by Price and Sloman. That is science.

The interaction of social defeat and resulting assertive or submissive behaviours which show the value of the male. The female reads this for social rank, which influences (almost exclusively) mate choice. It is in black and white and has been for 20 years yet no-one reads this stuff. I am a psychologist.

I agree with Tony. I'm glad you posted this.

Could you give us a brief "Clifff's Notess" summary of the bold? Is this "social defeat" from their abusive parents, or from women, or socieity in general?

So if the guy turns inwards (submissive) his rank among females drops, and if he becomes more aggressive (with the "I don't give a F" frame), then his rank goes up? Does this trump looks, or can it at least compensate for marginal looks?

It sounds common sense and intuitive, but I'd love to hear about this from a psychologist. The "armchair" psychology we do here gets old after a while lol.

Thanks man.

 

[floydb25]

I failed at science. It's not really important to get down to the analytical viewpoints and technical reasons. Doesn't really accomplish anything to know why something is the way it is. Only thing that matters is to realize its that way, and then adapt yourself to the situation accordingly. So, we know nice guys finish last. Therefore, don't be a nice guy. Screw science. You guys analyze enough **** already. Just focus on the facts. Knowing something doesn't mean jack **** if you can't make it work for you.

 

[f283000]

the difference between the guys here t he guys I know in real life is that the guys in real life have other **** going for them besides being nice.

the guys that are here, come here after years of being rejected by the opposite sex and are told that the reason they can't get laid is that they are being nice, ou have to be a bad boy. no the reason you can't get laid is because ou suck as a person. and i can say that because at one point i was in the same boat. i was 19, with no future,no money, nothing besides being nice. i did not work out, i wasn't a fun guy to be around, i had low self esteem i had no confidence in myself, etc

it wasn't because i was nice. it was becuase i sucked at life at the time why i couldn't get a woman. the more i sucked at life the nicer i became.

in other words, being overly nice is the outward manifest of you sucking ass in real life. it's not the core issue.

This is some harsh truth here that many here will refuse to see.

 

[bluenorther]

Go visit the Niceguysite.com, it explains a little more about the importance of VALUE, just as Chambers and CCFCmid have mentioned. VALUE can be demonstrated and explained scientifically.
This is what the online PUAs talk about, but the lesson keeps getting lost in the learning: Don't do this or that because it makes you look like a wuss/nice guy/afc. What they're trying to get at is, all that behaviour projects LOW VALUE. Sometimes it even gets spelled out just this way.
Niceguysite also gets into the issue of FALSE VALUE, which is what Jerks and Bad Boys are naturals with. They can instinctively project the same behaviours as a genuine millionaire, even though they've never worked a 40-hour week in their lives. Matters not to lots of women, as long as they FEEL like they're next to a man with High Value.
Likewise, if you're a millionaire but you haven't learned how to believe in yourself, you're gonna come across just like a burger tosser.

 

[MrJibbles]

I agree with Tony. I'm glad you posted this.

Could you give us a brief "Clifff's Notess" summary of the bold? Is this "social defeat" from their abusive parents, or from women, or socieity in general?

So if the guy turns inwards (submissive) his rank among females drops, and if he becomes more aggressive (with the "I don't give a F" frame), then his rank goes up? Does this trump looks, or can it at least compensate for marginal looks?

It sounds common sense and intuitive, but I'd love to hear about this from a psychologist. The "armchair" psychology we do here gets old after a while lol.

Thanks man.

OP, here. I agree, Mike.

Tony, as a psychologist, could you give us more insight into the evolutionary psychiatric side of attraction? I googled Price and Sloman and found this interesting link http://www.huxley.net/rankmood/

I will admit, my loss of ego, rejection, loss of popularity, etc. has certainly resulted in "damage limitation" behaviours. In other words, this is a defense mechanism that a so-called "nice guy" utilizes to outwardly appear to gain status and achieve social homeostatis. Deep down inside though, the "nice guy" knows it acts a shield to appear to have higher status than he really does, especially if he has authentically lost this status...

 

[MrJibbles]

I agree with Tony. I'm glad you posted this.

Could you give us a brief "Clifff's Notess" summary of the bold? Is this "social defeat" from their abusive parents, or from women, or socieity in general?

So if the guy turns inwards (submissive) his rank among females drops, and if he becomes more aggressive (with the "I don't give a F" frame), then his rank goes up? Does this trump looks, or can it at least compensate for marginal looks?

It sounds common sense and intuitive, but I'd love to hear about this from a psychologist. The "armchair" psychology we do here gets old after a while lol.

Thanks man.

OP, here. I agree, Mike.

Tony, as a psychologist, could you give us more insight into the evolutionary psychiatric side of attraction? I googled Price and Sloman and found this interesting link http://www.huxley.net/rankmood/

I will admit, my loss of ego, rejection, loss of popularity, etc. has certainly resulted in "damage limitation" behaviours. In other words, this is a defense mechanism that a so-called "nice guy" utilizes to outwardly appear to gain status and achieve social homeostatis. Deep down inside though, the "nice guy" knows it acts a shield to appear to have higher status than he really does, especially if he has authentically lost this status...

 

[Jariel]

Why is a nice guy automatically "shy, timid, unaggressive, and unconfident"? I will never fully understand where PUAs get the idea for this stereotype.

To me, "nice" simply means that you have the social skills necessary to treat other people with a certain basic amount of respect. If you don't have any of these skills, you are basically an antisocial personality. Is this what everybody here is aspiring to become?

You can rate someone on how nice they are from a scale of 1 to 10. Everyone would fall on the scale somewhere, most people would fall in the middle. This stereotype that PUAs perpetuate seems completely ridiculous to me, I don't see the logic in it. It's based on a 100% false assumption.

Well said!!

The problem with the PUA community is that they think in extremes and can't seem to find the nuances in between. They hear that nice guys finish last or get rejected on the grounds that they're "too nice" and instead of fine tuning their game, then suddenly decide to go to the opposite extreme and decide to act like jerks.

The sad thing is, most PUA "bad boys" are just jilted nerds who weren't strong enough to shrug off rejection and move on.

 

[zekko]

Out of AFC, Nice Guy, and Beta, AFC is the best of those pickup terms. It is a fairly accurate description. "Average Frustrated Chump", that says it all, doesn't it? He's a chump, and he's frustrated by his position.

But Nice Guy and Beta are not accurate descriptions at all. I've already discussed why Nice Guy is not an appropriate term.

As for Betas, when most guys here talk about Betas, they are really talking about Gamma males or such. Beta males, and especially high level Beta males, actually do quite well with women. Second only to the Alphas.