Why PUA's, MGTOW's, SoSuavers All Fail at Extremely High Rates

[Velasco]

improve yourself to be the best you can be. You can’t be better than that, and hoping to be is a waste of emotional energy and leads to anger and bitterness— to MGTOW. A 5’5 Asian guy with an unaesthetic face simply is not going to be Chad.

In your view, what does it mean to be Chad? no trolling. genuine question.

 

[rjc149]

In your view, what does it mean to be Chad? no trolling. genuine question.

A conventionally handsome man who is confident and extraverted, and who can easily attract women based on his physical appearance alone.

I use the term Chad with that in mind, knowing fully well the term originated from incel jargon to specifically refer to a tall, masculine-featured white “alpha” male.

 

[RangerMIke]

Dating and finding women is like prospecting and drilling for oil.

(1) You have to have the right tools and equipment. (Self improvement)
(2) You have to prospect for oil. (Find women you like)
(3) You have to make sure you have mineral rights. (She's open to you)
(4) You have to know what you are doing to get the oil. (Game)

The problem with too many men, PUAs, et. al. Is they jump right to step 4.

Step 1: This takes a lot of self reflection and effort. Too many are just too narcissistic and lazy to do this.

Step 2: They don't know what they are doing. They are too willing to settle for women that do not fit their lives. Again, using the oil analogy, there are different type of oil... some oil is high in sulfur... some is sweet crude (low sulfur). If you do not have the ability to refine oil that is high in sulfur content then you will have oil that you can not use. If you are willing to either lower your standards, or twist yourself into a knot trying to get and keep a chick happy, you are just setting yourself up for problems down the line.

Step 3: You do not have any control over this... let me repeat. There is NOTHING you can do to to FORCE a woman to be attracted to you. You show up as you are, and if she likes you then you have a chance. Now you MIGHT stumble into a situation where a chick is going through some period of her time, where you happen to meet her immediate needs AT THAT MOMENT, but a woman's needs will fluctuate like the weather as her emotions drag her in different directions. She'll date you until she figures out you don't have what she thinks she needs... then she is gone. And you have to be okay with letting her go... stop chasing... stop being an @ss... just move on. Again, using the oil analogy, the oil field is useless to you if you do not have access... and when your 'mineral rights' expire... you are done, if you don't take your equipment and drill elsewhere you will be forcefully removed and sued.

Step 4 : Let me say this up front and get it out of the way... jumping right to step 4 MIGHT work for you, but understand that if it does, it is pure blind @ss luck. It's like tossing a dart at a map as a way to figure out where to drill. The problem with PUAs and relationship coaches is that they tend to skip over Steps 1-3 and jump right to 4. They sell men on the idea that with a few tweaks to behavior, with some acting skills, you can be successful. YOU CAN NOT, chicks aren't stupid... any normal sane woman can see right through this sh1t like you were a pane of glass. Quality women are not fooled by game for very long, and in situations where 'game' works, it really has more to do with chicks just going along with it to meet some short term need she might have... when she's done, you get ghosted. You are not fooling her... she can sniff out a lie like a blood hound.

So, what is Sosauve and why is it different? Well... it's a holistic approach to dating that places the man's wants and needs at the forefront, like women place their wants and needs ahead of any man. Understanding the environment a man is in and giving him tools to be successful. That it is MUCH better to not have a chick in your life than to have one that isn't going to work for you.

 

[Lookatu]

My theory on the decline in PUA coaching is that the rise of OLD, and the coming of age of the younger screen generations who have little patience or balls to go out and hit on women, have made these aging middle-aged PUA’s not only obsolescent, but creepy. Instead, younger men struggling with women prefer to find solace in victimhood, blaming external loci of control, and anger— hence the rise of red pill and MGTOW. Some of that is here on SS too.

I agree and if you dig deeper, I think this could be a byproduct of feminism and being raised by single mothers. We all know feminists like to cry and play victim all the time. Rather than letting these issues strengthen them, they often resort to letting it define and/or defeat them. This is classic behaviour of feminists and unfortunately, I find it's infecting society more and more, especially the younger males.

 

[sangheilios]

Dating and finding women is like prospecting and drilling for oil.

(1) You have to have the right tools and equipment. (Self improvement)
(2) You have to prospect for oil. (Find women you like)
(3) You have to make sure you have mineral rights. (She's open to you)
(4) You have to know what you are doing to get the oil. (Game)

The problem with too many men, PUAs, et. al. Is they jump right to step 4.

Step 1: This takes a lot of self reflection and effort. Too many are just too narcissistic and lazy to do this.

Step 2: They don't know what they are doing. They are too willing to settle for women that do not fit their lives. Again, using the oil analogy, there are different type of oil... some oil is high in sulfur... some is sweet crude (low sulfur). If you do not have the ability to refine oil that is high in sulfur content then you will have oil that you can not use. If you are willing to either lower your standards, or twist yourself into a knot trying to get and keep a chick happy, you are just setting yourself up for problems down the line.

Step 3: You do not have any control over this... let me repeat. There is NOTHING you can do to to FORCE a woman to be attracted to you. You show up as you are, and if she likes you then you have a chance. Now you MIGHT stumble into a situation where a chick is going through some period of her time, where you happen to meet her immediate needs AT THAT MOMENT, but a woman's needs will fluctuate like the weather as her emotions drag her in different directions. She'll date you until she figures out you don't have what she thinks she needs... then she is gone. And you have to be okay with letting her go... stop chasing... stop being an @ss... just move on. Again, using the oil analogy, the oil field is useless to you if you do not have access... and when your 'mineral rights' expire... you are done, if you don't take your equipment and drill elsewhere you will be forcefully removed and sued.

Step 4 : Let me say this up front and get it out of the way... jumping right to step 4 MIGHT work for you, but understand that if it does, it is pure blind @ss luck. It's like tossing a dart at a map as a way to figure out where to drill. The problem with PUAs and relationship coaches is that they tend to skip over Steps 1-3 and jump right to 4. They sell men on the idea that with a few tweaks to behavior, with some acting skills, you can be successful. YOU CAN NOT, chicks aren't stupid... any normal sane woman can see right through this sh1t like you were a pane of glass. Quality women are not fooled by game for very long, and in situations where 'game' works, it really has more to do with chicks just going along with it to meet some short term need she might have... when she's done, you get ghosted. You are not fooling her... she can sniff out a lie like a blood hound.

So, what is Sosauve and why is it different? Well... it's a holistic approach to dating that places the man's wants and needs at the forefront, like women place their wants and needs ahead of any man. Understanding the environment a man is in and giving him tools to be successful. That it is MUCH better to not have a chick in your life than to have one that isn't going to work for you.

I feel like a good step for your oil drilling analogy that you could include would be knowing how to prospect for potential oil reserves in the first place. To put this into the context of this forum, knowing where you can place yourself into an environment where you can meet women you'd potentially be interested in. If you are looking for a woman who is potential relationship material you most likely aren't going to find it at a nightclub.

 

[rjc149]

I agree and if you dig deeper, I think this could be a byproduct of feminism and being raised by single mothers. We all know feminists like to cry and play victim all the time. Rather than letting these issues strengthen them, they often resort to letting it define and/or defeat them. This is classic behaviour of feminists and unfortunately, I find it's infecting society more and more, especially the younger males.

Victimhood and culpability discourse (the blame game) are now primary vehicles to empowerment. I see this not just in feminism, but socio-political movements like BLM. It’s the underlying foundation for red pill toxicity. I see the Rational Male largely as a men’s victimhood and women’s culpability polemic. It’s essentially a warning to men, to watch their backs for the “feminine imperative” and becoming the unwitting victims of their hypergamy. This is root of all this “What? Relationships with women? CUCK!” bullish!t on this forum.

 

[bonesmahoney]

Dating and finding women is like prospecting and drilling for oil.

(1) You have to have the right tools and equipment. (Self improvement)
(2) You have to prospect for oil. (Find women you like)
(3) You have to make sure you have mineral rights. (She's open to you)
(4) You have to know what you are doing to get the oil. (Game)

It's not nearly that complicated. Or at least it shouldn't be.

1. eat well, exercise, develop healthy habits. This should just be normal upbringing and development.
2. half of the human population is female. They can't be that hard to find. As you grow up, you normally spend your day with same/close in age peers.
3. again, signs of interest are universally understood, even at an early age.
4. "game" usually f-cks up your prospects more than it helps.

But we all know that there are evil forces working against everyone. The jews, the communists, the feminists, they all hate normality and healthy people and work everyday to destroy us.

 

[characternote]

You do not have any control over this... let me repeat. There is NOTHING you can do to to FORCE a woman to be attracted to you.

(I felt this needed to be said twice lol)

 

[Lookatu]

Victimhood and culpability discourse (the blame game) are now primary vehicles to empowerment. I see this not just in feminism, but socio-political movements like BLM. It’s the underlying foundation for red pill toxicity. I see the Rational Male largely as a men’s victimhood and women’s culpability polemic. It’s essentially a warning to men, to watch their backs for the “feminine imperative” and becoming the unwitting victims of their hypergamy. This is root of all this “What? Relationships with women? CUCK!” bullish!t on this forum.

I agree with you but I wonder if some of these modern socio-political movements are a fundamental byproduct of feminism. I mean you always had protests and movements in the past but at least back then, it seemed more clear cut and legitimate. Now you have things that are laughable at best.

Take the cancel culture and the most recent victim of it: Pepe Le Pew. People are trying to say this fictional character skunk was was trying to promote rape culture. LOL. Sad...

 

[rjc149]

I agree with you but I wonder if some of these modern socio-political movements are a fundamental byproduct of feminism. I mean you always had protests and movements in the past but at least back then, it seemed more clear cut and legitimate. Now you have things that are laughable at best.

Take the cancel culture and the most recent victim of it: Pepe Le Pew. People are trying to say this fictional character skunk was was trying to promote rape culture. LOL. Sad...

BLM and its various splinter movements are the byproducts of the social media age. Many of these incidents would not get the attention of the public without someone filming them on a cell phone and posting it on the internet. Mass hysterical outrage would not spread as rapidly or as wide. Many of the demonstrators would not organize rallies if they were unable to self-aggrandize by posting selfies on social media. Many of them would have better things to do, if they were not overwhelmed by the paradox of choice of what to do with their lives -- a consequence of our information-overload via media from an early age.

Of course, BLM would not exist without the precedent of 3 centuries of American race relations, in which black people were chained to posts in the yard for 1.5 of those centuries, relegated as 2nd class citizens for another 1, and relegated to de facto ghettos for the remaining .5 up until now.

Feminism also has its roots in anger at the chauvinism and misogyny that was integral in a patriarchal modern society.

Neither BLM nor Me2 feminism is a rational response. They are both emotional reactions. Therein lie their problems.

 

[Lookatu]

BLM and its various splinter movements are the byproducts of the social media age. Many of these incidents would not get the attention of the public without someone filming them on a cell phone and posting it on the internet. Mass hysterical outrage would not spread as rapidly or as wide. Many of the demonstrators would not organize rallies if they were unable to self-aggrandize by posting selfies on social media. Many of them would have better things to do, if they were not overwhelmed by the paradox of choice of what to do with their lives -- a consequence of our information-overload via media from an early age.

Of course, BLM would not exist without the precedent of 3 centuries of American race relations, in which black people were chained to posts in the yard for 1.5 of those centuries, relegated as 2nd class citizens for another 1, and relegated to de facto ghettos for the remaining .5 up until now.

Feminism also has its roots in anger at the chauvinism and misogyny that was integral in a patriarchal modern society.

Neither BLM nor Me2 feminism is a rational response. They are both emotional reactions. Therein lie their problems.

While I agree that social media has helped it, I don't view those two as two separate entities. If you look and ask any of the older black generation about what's going on, I think you'll have a lot of mixed reactions. Older black people conformed and had a survival mentality while younger black people have more of an entitlement/victim mentality these days. The victim mentality is partially brought on by the lack of fathers and discipline/structure in their lives always molding themselves to the female mindset(playing victim).
We can agree to disagree but I have a slightly different perspective on it.

 

[ubercat]

People get over excited on this topic. The point about PUA was it was a recipe got guys out there. Having game is the sauce not the meal. Anybody who s tried to help a clueless mate knows there s a big diff. But if the meal is spam don't expect the hot sauce to fool anyone.

 

[jhonny9546]

After 19 years in this game, I've concluded there is no magic method, no magic pill for getting women.

I also concluded the direct approach is best and blows all PUA techniques out of the water if you do it right. Most PUA gurus highly exaggerate their success rates and how effective they claim their methods to be.

In the end, your ultimate goal is to be your authentic self, and the best version of yourself, and be confident showing that to women. You don't need a fake outer PUA persona or layer of tactics and techniques.

Another harsh but necessary truth I've learned about seduction is there is no such thing as 100% success rate in this game, no matter how good you get
at this. In fact, harsh truth number 2 is that most of the time it doesn't work out with women you approach, and it's almost always NO fault of your own (assuming you have a good understanding of how to approach and interact with women). This is something the PUA gurus won't tell you.

When you can make peace with these things, then you can just accept those 'losses' without it being a big deal, knowing you'll find someone eventually.

Because we know that as humans, if we know how things works, we could do amazing things.
Matematicians knew that by learning formulas, they can make calcolus.
Engineers, knew that with those formulas, they could make a plane to fly.

So this is obvious, by knowing a woman, a man could be MORE.
By MOREi mean, to be the best version of himself to be "actractive" for a woman in any of his fields.
To being seen as a good, reliable, etc etc.

Don't you think that by reading about PUA's, SOSuave and other material, there is something this could teach you about "how woman works" and so "how to be MORE"?

 

[CornbreadFed]

still applicable today, many RPs hate women, but think that is going to transfer into seduction & attraction.

 

[zekko]

The most notorious was probably Mystery Method's 9 step approach. According to this method, you always had to lay a girl through exactly 9 steps in exactly the same order.

RSD had no method. Basically it came down to: approach anything that moves, "claw," then GTFO of there as quickly as possible before the cops/boyfriend/bouncer arrives. FAIL.

MGTOW has no advice except to avoid women. Yeah, so what's left after that? Sex dolls and porn?

What's the SOSUAVE method? I'm all for self improvement, who isn't? But is there any genuine practical useful advice here? It's basically to "next" any woman who shows any resistance. This is a disastrous and incredibly naive assumption about how to pursue women.

I share your skepticism of PUA techniques, eh some of it works, some of it doesn't. Some works better for some people than others. But of what you have listed there, the "SoSuave method" looks best to me. It won't necessarily work, but if you do get a woman at the end of it, at least she'll be high interest.

 

[jhonny9546]

still applicable today, many RPs hate women, but think that is going to transfer into seduction & attraction.

wdym?

 

[Solomon]

PUA's have been irrelevant for over a decade and MGTOW got shadow-banned or black listed on reddit and youtube. The only men that are getting real things done are men who are out there active in the world getting ready for the real smoke to happen if you know you know

 

[DreamAgain]

I tend to cut PUA's some slack, especially recently, assuming they take any action at all IRL.

Having said that, just about every single piece of manosphere advice is not only flawed but actually counter-productive. That's right, just about every branch of the manosphere is of NEGATIVE VALUE. Here's why.

THEY ALL RELY ON COOKIE CUTTER FORMULAE INSTEAD OF USING SOCIAL INTELLIGENCE.

The most notorious was probably Mystery Method's 9 step approach. According to this method, you always had to lay a girl through exactly 9 steps in exactly the same order.

RSD had no method. Basically it came down to: approach anything that moves, "claw," then GTFO of there as quickly as possible before the cops/boyfriend/bouncer arrives. FAIL.

MGTOW has no advice except to avoid women. Yeah, so what's left after that? Sex dolls and porn?

What's the SOSUAVE method? I'm all for self improvement, who isn't? But is there any genuine practical useful advice here? It's basically to "next" any woman who shows any resistance. This is a disastrous and incredibly naive assumption about how to pursue women.

Ultimately, the manosphere consists increasingly almost exclusively of professional, full time complainers. And it doesn't have to be this way. The question is, who is smart and flexible enough to work without formulas? Because no one in the manosphere is capable.

Self improvement is the really only useful advice here, but the advice here should be more tuned to explaining how the dating market is changing.

You can't go to work on a horse and buggy today, you can't write emails on a typewriter. The world is very dynamic and yes, for the highest level of guys being here is unnecessary, but most guys here are probably wondering why after a certain amount of self improvement they are still not getting any results.

This forum should be mostly blackpill tilted with a red pill emphasis on maxing out what range you can realistically shoot for, and not complaining when you do not have any results when you are trying to play in the NBA, yet belong at the local junior college.

I originally came to this forum because I was blue pill and got my heart broken, and realized that my world view did not align with reality. The no contact thread was most useful to me and I am very grateful it exists on the internet. I learned a lot here about how the world works and that made me firmly in the blackpill camp with a red pill twist that men should try to optimize whatever they reasonably can, but not get frustrated when they realize there is a ceiling to what can be done.

 

[Macadellic]

I come from long before PUA was a thing.
I remember listening to Tom Lykis live on fm radio.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

PUA's have been irrelevant for over a decade and MGTOW got shadow-banned or black listed on reddit and youtube. The only men that are getting real things done are men who are out there active in the world getting ready for the real smoke to happen if you know you know

Spirituality will be the next big thing women will be into. The world will be starting to pivot away from materialism imo. Women like nice things but they're also into intuition, psychic stuff, astrology, etc and since the current zeitgeist offers them a shallow existence and the world is getting crazier by the day, they are going to turn towards "deeper meaning" type stuff.

As you say, "if you know, you know", personally I've done a sh1tload of research done into where things are headed.