Why PUA's, MGTOW's, SoSuavers All Fail at Extremely High Rates

[bonesmahoney]

I tend to cut PUA's some slack, especially recently, assuming they take any action at all IRL.

Having said that, just about every single piece of manosphere advice is not only flawed but actually counter-productive. That's right, just about every branch of the manosphere is of NEGATIVE VALUE. Here's why.

THEY ALL RELY ON COOKIE CUTTER FORMULAE INSTEAD OF USING SOCIAL INTELLIGENCE.

The most notorious was probably Mystery Method's 9 step approach. According to this method, you always had to lay a girl through exactly 9 steps in exactly the same order.

RSD had no method. Basically it came down to: approach anything that moves, "claw," then GTFO of there as quickly as possible before the cops/boyfriend/bouncer arrives. FAIL.

MGTOW has no advice except to avoid women. Yeah, so what's left after that? Sex dolls and porn?

What's the SOSUAVE method? I'm all for self improvement, who isn't? But is there any genuine practical useful advice here? It's basically to "next" any woman who shows any resistance. This is a disastrous and incredibly naive assumption about how to pursue women.

Ultimately, the manosphere consists increasingly almost exclusively of professional, full time complainers. And it doesn't have to be this way. The question is, who is smart and flexible enough to work without formulas? Because no one in the manosphere is capable.

 

[Guitar_Whizz]

After 19 years in this game, I've concluded there is no magic method, no magic pill for getting women.

I also concluded the direct approach is best and blows all PUA techniques out of the water if you do it right. Most PUA gurus highly exaggerate their success rates and how effective they claim their methods to be.

In the end, your ultimate goal is to be your authentic self, and the best version of yourself, and be confident showing that to women. You don't need a fake outer PUA persona or layer of tactics and techniques.

Another harsh but necessary truth I've learned about seduction is there is no such thing as 100% success rate in this game, no matter how good you get
at this. In fact, harsh truth number 2 is that most of the time it doesn't work out with women you approach, and it's almost always NO fault of your own (assuming you have a good understanding of how to approach and interact with women). This is something the PUA gurus won't tell you.

When you can make peace with these things, then you can just accept those 'losses' without it being a big deal, knowing you'll find someone eventually.

 

[EyeBRollin]

It’s not either or. In my opinion game can be summed up as:

Step 1: Learn to identify women that already like you (“choosing signals”)

Step 2: Don’t turn them off (“the game” “masculine frame”)

Step 3: Rinse and repeat in perpetuity (“spin plates”)

 

[corrector]

MGTOW has no advice except to avoid women. Yeah, so what's left after that? Sex dolls and porn?

No, your mother.

 

[Gstring]

@bonesmahoney

Kudos to MGTOW, no advice except to avoid women. That is exactly what they doing, complain and avoid. Plus bastards infiltrated sosuave.

You must read the DJ Bible and do DJ bootcamp. Sosuave is all about developing your own game.

 

[Charm2K]

I tend to cut PUA's some slack, especially recently, assuming they take any action at all IRL.

Having said that, just about every single piece of manosphere advice is not only flawed but actually counter-productive. That's right, just about every branch of the manosphere is of NEGATIVE VALUE. Here's why.

THEY ALL RELY ON COOKIE CUTTER FORMULAE INSTEAD OF USING SOCIAL INTELLIGENCE.

The most notorious was probably Mystery Method's 9 step approach. According to this method, you always had to lay a girl through exactly 9 steps in exactly the same order.

RSD had no method. Basically it came down to: approach anything that moves, "claw," then GTFO of there as quickly as possible before the cops/boyfriend/bouncer arrives. FAIL.

MGTOW has no advice except to avoid women. Yeah, so what's left after that? Sex dolls and porn?

What's the SOSUAVE method? I'm all for self improvement, who isn't? But is there any genuine practical useful advice here? It's basically to "next" any woman who shows any resistance. This is a disastrous and incredibly naive assumption about how to pursue women.

Ultimately, the manosphere consists increasingly almost exclusively of professional, full time complainers. And it doesn't have to be this way. The question is, who is smart and flexible enough to work without formulas? Because no one in the manosphere is capable.

After 19 years in this game, I've concluded there is no magic method, no magic pill for getting women.

I also concluded the direct approach is best and blows all PUA techniques out of the water if you do it right. Most PUA gurus highly exaggerate their success rates and how effective they claim their methods to be.

In the end, your ultimate goal is to be your authentic self, and the best version of yourself, and be confident showing that to women. You don't need a fake outer PUA persona or layer of tactics and techniques.

Another harsh but necessary truth I've learned about seduction is there is no such thing as 100% success rate in this game, no matter how good you get
at this. In fact, harsh truth number 2 is that most of the time it doesn't work out with women you approach, and it's almost always NO fault of your own (assuming you have a good understanding of how to approach and interact with women). This is something the PUA gurus won't tell you.

When you can make peace with these things, then you can just accept those 'losses' without it being a big deal, knowing you'll find someone eventually.

VERY GOOD VERY GOOD!! Finally spitting some truth !!!

 

[characternote]

Well people have been lied too quite alot in the community. For some reason more people bought the lie back in the day, but it does appear that in recent times the truth has risen to the surface and there's less gullible people lol. I imagine that's in part due to things like youtube which wasn't really around when mystery was pretending that you can get any girl you want, no matter how you look, as long as you remember to 'neg' her and tell a DHV story blablabla ('girls don't care about looks, bro!') lol. I can't imagine anyone with a sister or female friends believing that!

And yes, then we had RSD. Much less structure. Was mainly about 'self amusement' and state transference. Basically get in a good mood, go and hit on girls in anyway you want. Direct. In direct. Whatever. Say whatever you want (there's no rules - e.g nothing to 'learn'). And try to get physical and escalate with the girls. If she's not into you, move on to the next. In hindsight, I think this was the best 'model', tbh. Tyler and Julien both admitted to still getting rejected 'all the time' - a far cry from mystery's '5 for 5' claim. Which was of course fantasy, and looking at his old infields now with a fresh pair of eyes, it's so funny to think anyone was ever convinced. He's honestly not someone i'd be scared of stealing my girl!

ToddV - branch off of RSD but with much more 'technical' stuff and theory. His channel seemed to take a hit when his 'bench rejection' went viral lol (some popular youtube discovered it somehow). It just showed that no matter how much technical game you have, it's useless to try to bang girls who are uninterested/unattracted. He ended up making a very cringe video! Not that i'm giving him a hard time. I've made tonnes of super cringey pickup attempts (due to hitting on girls who weren't physically attracted). It will always look cringey in that respect. There's not getting around it.

Then there was girlschase and stuff. Super cringe. No infields and just pure fantasy. The guys who write for him have to be autistic. I used to read their (likely make believe) 'field reports' and crack up. Like they were trying to get an award for creative writing or something. In real life, talking to girls like how they write in their infields would have her thinking something was wrong with you. No self-awareness

JMULV - I was always amazed he was able to sell his course, bearing in mind his 'method' (and I watched all his infields/courses) was essentially to say 'hi', give a compliment, tell her it was your friends bday, ask if she likes greygoose vodka, then ask her back. That's what every other guy in the world does at some point in the night. That's like buying a course on how to breathe lol

Then there were other people scattered around. Usually a watered down version of mystery (so it was more open, tease and try to show you're fun, sprinkle in some dhv hints and sexualise and escalate). Like all other methods, it works if she's physically attracted. Not if she's not. Also didn't help that it was around this time, that all of these 'PUA's tended to be young, fairly good looking guys, and banging girls who were usually slightly uglier than them and wanting a pat on the back lol. It's like 'yeah. Great. But nobody is out here claiming it's impossible to get laid!'

I'd say my 'game' ended up being most like RSD. I went through a stage of reading so much theory and trying to always know the right thing to say and do and going over rejections trying to work out what I done 'wrong' etc that I went mad at one point! Studied mystery and riker and yareally and technicalbible and everything else. I now know it was a complete waste of time. I've tested all that 'advanced' stuff out and it does more harm than good. Open girls, chat in a light-hearted way, don't be too serious, if she's still asking you questions and you can 'sense' she's maybe attracted, I start to flirt a little bit. If she's receptive, escalate. That's basically my game after much trial and error. I think my resutls have been as good as any other PUA. (of a similar looks level). But the 'skill' element is game is kind of negligible. I've got friends who could steal the girl of any of the aforementioned PUA's who don't know a thing about game and don't even 'naturally' do all of that stuff. Some of them are plain boring tbh lol. Yet I know that no average looking 'pua' would have a chance against them

I know that there's no way to 'convert' a girl who isn't interested/attracted into a lay. And I think nearly everyone knows this nowadays. And I think that's why the wheels kind of fell off (lots of coaches disappeared, lots of PUA forums died out, redpill and lookxmax stuff went on the rise etc). I mean, why are people gonna waste their time and heavily invest in this stuff when it simply can't deliver.

 

[bat soup]

I tend to cut PUA's some slack, especially recently, assuming they take any action at all IRL.

Having said that, just about every single piece of manosphere advice is not only flawed but actually counter-productive. That's right, just about every branch of the manosphere is of NEGATIVE VALUE. Here's why.

THEY ALL RELY ON COOKIE CUTTER FORMULAE INSTEAD OF USING SOCIAL INTELLIGENCE.

The most notorious was probably Mystery Method's 9 step approach. According to this method, you always had to lay a girl through exactly 9 steps in exactly the same order.

RSD had no method. Basically it came down to: approach anything that moves, "claw," then GTFO of there as quickly as possible before the cops/boyfriend/bouncer arrives. FAIL.

MGTOW has no advice except to avoid women. Yeah, so what's left after that? Sex dolls and porn?

What's the SOSUAVE method? I'm all for self improvement, who isn't? But is there any genuine practical useful advice here? It's basically to "next" any woman who shows any resistance. This is a disastrous and incredibly naive assumption about how to pursue women.

Ultimately, the manosphere consists increasingly almost exclusively of professional, full time complainers. And it doesn't have to be this way. The question is, who is smart and flexible enough to work without formulas? Because no one in the manosphere is capable.

There is good and bad advice out there. You have to find what works for you.

Sosuave is just a discussion forum. There is no one philosophy that everyone here follows.

A lot of people come for advice and the most common scenario is "there's this one girl that I like. She keeps fobbing me off with excuses. What should I do." The advice to move on is appropriate for that scenario.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

What I have found works the best for me is to be fun, have interesting conversations, act normal, and don't be thirsty and overdo the sexual stuff at first.

One thing I also have done is to come up with 4 or 5 stories I tell over the course of the first few dates that are really interesting and related to certain questions I ask them.

Also...playing thumb war and hot hands on a first date works like a charm...it is silly but brings them back to when they were a kid and gives you a certain "boyish charm"...

 

[Velasco]

I've tested all that 'advanced' stuff out and it does more harm than good. Open girls, chat in a light-hearted way, don't be too serious, if she's still asking you questions and you can 'sense' she's maybe attracted, I start to flirt a little bit. If she's receptive, escalate. That's basically my game after much trial and error.

think there's levels to each part you highlighted. as in one can be 'advanced' in one thing and suck in others (I'm advanced at closing but for the longest time, intermidate at opening).

open
beginner level: can't get themselves to open girls (even if they're not hot) regularly.
intermidate level: can't get themselves to open hot girls regularly.
advanced level: can approach hot girls anywhere no problem.

flirt
beginner level: regularly runs out of things to say.
intermidate level: struggle to take the conversation from social to sexual regularly.
advanced level: knows how to transition out from any convo to one conductive for a same night lay.

close
beginner level: doesn't know when to pull.
intermidate level: unable to deal with objections inside club or in the bedroom.
advanced level: knows when to pull and is able to deal with objections to sex from her.

forums like this exist to get everyone to advanced level in each of these categories (achievable in 2-3 years of going out imo). best way is through feedback on their field reports (which i see noone writes anymore)...

 

[Georgepithyou]

It’s not either or. In my opinion game can be summed up as:

Step 1: Learn to identify women that already like you (“choosing signals”)

Step 2: Don’t turn them off (“the game” “masculine frame”)

Step 3: Rinse and repeat in perpetuity (“spin plates”)

This ia pretty much it, not sure PUAs think u need this overally complex step by step formula just to chat to women

 

[Chronocidal]

THEY ALL RELY ON COOKIE CUTTER FORMULAE INSTEAD OF USING SOCIAL INTELLIGENCE.

Devil's advocate: What if it turns out to be the case that what's labeled as "social intelligence" is actually a set of learned behaviors? Or if "social intelligence" (or "calibration", "a smooth approach", or whatever else) is actually something labeled as such after the fact, in sharpshooter-fallacy fashion?

 

[redskinsfan92]

Since when has sosuave EVER been cookie cutter. I reject the notion that this is a bakery!

 

[redskinsfan92]

You miss the whole point of most methods. It's simply to give a clueless guy some direction as he develops his own game.

Take a man for example who finds himself unable to approach women. Dude, can't even think of what to say.
"Just go say hello."
Ok, then what this guy wonders. This was my dilemma.

A book like Day Bang by Roosh helps this guy with a starting block until he becomes more socially intelligent in this area.


You see, the man who is already having success with women thinks its a simple thing. It is for him. There are so many subconscious and routine behaviors at work. This is not so for the man who can't even get a date.

Example: I can drive a manual transmission vehicle well. I have owned 2 over an 8 year span. When I want to go, I simply shift gears and drive.
Now put a driver in my car that has never driven a manual. I tell them, "Dude it's so simple. Don't overcomplicate it! Just put it in first, don't stall, and go!" What happens? They stall. I repeat my self. They stall. I repeat myself. They stall. Then I say, "Dude, you aren't trying hard enough. You need to put in effort." They go 3 feet and stall.

We aren't making any progress are we?

What do I need to do? Teach them. I will first teach them the gears and let them simply get a feel of moving the shifter from 1st to 2nd to 3rd, etc. Then I would teach them to slowly let off the clutch while giving it a little gas to start off in 1st. Eventually they would be driving a manual just fine.

This is the same with helping men who are having very little sucecss with women. Giving them a cliche statement like, "Just be confident. Don't be insecure." simply does not help at all.

 

[evan12]

I tend to cut PUA's some slack, especially recently, assuming they take any action at all IRL.

Having said that, just about every single piece of manosphere advice is not only flawed but actually counter-productive. That's right, just about every branch of the manosphere is of NEGATIVE VALUE. Here's why.

THEY ALL RELY ON COOKIE CUTTER FORMULAE INSTEAD OF USING SOCIAL INTELLIGENCE.

The most notorious was probably Mystery Method's 9 step approach. According to this method, you always had to lay a girl through exactly 9 steps in exactly the same order.

RSD had no method. Basically it came down to: approach anything that moves, "claw," then GTFO of there as quickly as possible before the cops/boyfriend/bouncer arrives. FAIL.

MGTOW has no advice except to avoid women. Yeah, so what's left after that? Sex dolls and porn?

What's the SOSUAVE method? I'm all for self improvement, who isn't? But is there any genuine practical useful advice here? It's basically to "next" any woman who shows any resistance. This is a disastrous and incredibly naive assumption about how to pursue women.

Ultimately, the manosphere consists increasingly almost exclusively of professional, full time complainers. And it doesn't have to be this way. The question is, who is smart and flexible enough to work without formulas? Because no one in the manosphere is capable.

I think all these methods get summarized by the following:
Be social
Do self improvement
Have the traditional manly traits ( confidents , care less , frame, direction ) .

The only untrue part was they hide the importance of look and age , and that was for commercial reasons , as most of their students were either not handsomes or who are olders and still single. This lead to many people to get desperate since they followed the rest.

 

[Lookatu]

The question is, who is smart and flexible enough to work without formulas?

Guy's doing it right will work with guidelines.

Guy's doing it wrong will work with formulas.

Pook back in 2004 stated do not be contained in formula but a lot of newbies missed that and continue missing that.

Be not contained by formula.

 

[bonesmahoney]

One thing that's very important to add is the naivete of most new wannabe PUA's.

When I was first getting into the game, a couple of dudes were telling me about how they had purchased "Style's" PUA program. These f-ckers literally invested thousands of dollars APIECE and then shared the f-cking program! They paid like 7 f-cking G's!

I watched some of it later: a handful of nerdy guys were videotaped bragging that they had gotten a girl's phone number or maybe a kiss on the cheek! LMAO!!

 

[Velasco]

Damn bro. You've must've been in PUA for a while if back when u started, style was still selling PUA programs lol. I think way back then number closes and kiss closes were a big deal for them.

 

[bonesmahoney]

LOL I've been in the game for a decade. I was just getting into the PUA scene and these guys had bought the program years ago. They were kinda embarrassed by it I think, but not enough to admit how much they paid.

I know that there's no way to 'convert' a girl who isn't interested/attracted into a lay. And I think nearly everyone knows this nowadays. And I think that's why the wheels kind of fell off (lots of coaches disappeared, lots of PUA forums died out, redpill and lookxmax stuff went on the rise etc). I mean, why are people gonna waste their time and heavily invest in this stuff when it simply can't deliver.

One other thing is that PUA guys just couldn't get along with one another for any extended period of time. There was so much backstabbing, gossiping, and nerd drama it made it nearly impossible to move forward with any constructive activity. It's like those guys were PMSing 24/7 over trivial sh-t.

They all tried to AMOG one another and couldn't figure out that the principle of cooperation was just as important, if not more so. Again, rigid application of formulae.

 

[rjc149]

You seem to prefer viewing things as black or white, either or, this or that. It’s a theme that recurs in a lot of your posts— in which there are sometimes a few nuggets of gold hidden in your trolling that challenge rigid red pill mentality.

Sosuave is a forum, so it’s a panoply of varying opinions and experiences. Hence there isn’t going to be an over-arching “Sosuave method.” You have guys with prison convict hyper-vigilance to disrespect — if a girl so much as looks at you cross-eyed, you bring down the hammer or next her. A lot of this is rooted in insecurity and a lot of that is why we’re here. To get a handle on that. That insecurity exists to varying degrees with different posters.

Few, if anyone here will concede to a superior method or viewpoint. Most are ready to die on their hills. Maybe that’s why you see it as rigid and formulaic. The limitations of offering general advice on an Internet forum, being unable to account for individual circumstance beyond what’s written in a post, mean that advice is going to be general— and thus more “rigid.”

I draw distinctions between PUA advice and dating/attraction advice. The former is more purpose-driven to take skanks home from the bar, the other advocates an internalized mentality about women, and about being a man in general ie. not being needy, not behaving in a way that demonstrates insecurity, charm and humor, how to have successful dates, how to maintain a romantic relationship etc. I see a good deal of good, authentic, non-PUA advice here.

My theory on the decline in PUA coaching is that the rise of OLD, and the coming of age of the younger screen generations who have little patience or balls to go out and hit on women, have made these aging middle-aged PUA’s not only obsolescent, but creepy. Instead, younger men struggling with women prefer to find solace in victimhood, blaming external loci of control, and anger— hence the rise of red pill and MGTOW. Some of that is here on SS too.

The middle road I always seek is this: you can improve yourself to be the best you can be. You can’t be better than that, and hoping to be is a waste of emotional energy and leads to anger and bitterness— to MGTOW. A 5’5 Asian guy with an unaesthetic face simply is not going to be Chad. Hank Moody mentioned JT Tran, who was exactly that— a short, pudgy Asian dude selling PUA boot camps to short, pudgy Asian dudes. Everyone realizes sooner or later these guys are swindlers— but that doesn’t mean a short pudgy Asian dude can’t get laid, if he maxes out what he can max out and makes peace with his aesthetic limitations. The modern red pill MGTOW stuff is the inability to make peace with yourself, and instead blaming others for your shortcomings. That’s the overall trajectory of our society.