kickureface
Master Don Juan
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one of the betters posts. hopefully some people will see that.MoveYourAss... said:
moveyourass's posts should be in bold.
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What about the "Booty Call" Damages
- Thread starter blue08
- Start date
moveyourass's posts should be in bold.
KontrollerX
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Well I thought I already explained it for you adequately but here goes again in another attempt to make it even more clear for you...blue08 said:
Blue what you and women like you want is the chase.
That is what gets your pvssies so wet and your nipples so rock hard for assh0les like me and DJDamage and the guy thats boning you now and the guy thats probably still boning SunnyD and having his way with her.
Anyway the chase keeps you from getting bored, it keeps you from getting complacent and it allows your mind to think up various scenarios about how to make him finally give in and run to you and scoop you up in his powerful arms and say he loves you forever and wants to marry you or make you his girl forever in a relationship etc.
*Excuse me while I pause for a moment. I must violently vomit now*
Alright moving on...
Anyway the chase to re-iterate keeps you on your toes and all fired up daily yearning to be the best most insatiable piece of ass you can be for this guy to get him to give in and give you the relationship/marriage that you think you want.
Also in addition to the chase there is competitive fire between you both.
He goes and fvcks another chick and you withhold sex from him when you're angry and in doing so this throws out the subtle hint that hey I'm desirable to someone else, so you better treat me right or I can be gone at any time tee hee.
Yeah though its kind of an idle threat on your part as the chase and your own thoughts about conquering him get you so hot bothered and soaking wet you have no intentions whatsoever of getting away from this guy completely leaving him for another man.
And because of all this competition anxiety and chasing and you getting your drama needs and excitement needs met from it everytime you two have sex I'm sure you go above and beyond the call of duty.
You probably bounce up and down on his rod a hundred miles an hour among other things fulfilling every deep dark sexual fantasy he could ever have because you think subconsciously or consciously that if you keep rocking his world to mind bending near death orgasms he'll eventually find you to be irreplaceable and through this you will win his love.
Not gonna happen though.
He's got too good of a deal now.
You are insatiable girl!
What man would give up that kind of porn action for a relationship/marriage that take away everything that gets you so hot and bothered for him in the first place???
So yeah if SunnyD's man and your man ever get tired of boning the both of you, you cougars need to schedule a meeting with DJDamage and myself so we can fill that hole in your lives once again and hey we'll even help you lick your wounds...
We'll give you a relationship if you give us hot sex.
Promise.
Cross our hearts and hope to die and stuff.
Err you do realize horoscopes are superstitious nonsense right?blue08 said:
Define "puppy dog of a man" in your view please.blue08 said:
And as for compromise what we teach here is lessons that most benefit men.
Compromise is not something that will benefit men.
We have our own identity and wants out of life and we approach women in such a way that they'll just have to work around how we live our lives if they want to be in it.
It tends to work well for us as like I told you before you women are most turned on when you are chasing us and trying to change us and our job as men is to not let you catch us or change us.
So yeah guys need to not listen to Dr. Phil's bullsh!t and never compromise with a woman in a fvck buddy scenario, a relationship or a marriage.
A woman may think she wants that but in reality compromise will eventually bore her to tears and she will go leave for a man that tells her how its going to be and if she doesn't like it he will point her to the door.
See its not us men being controlling either as you have the complete freedom to leave at anytime.
Also I found it amusing when you thought your man was being insecure about asking you if you cheated.
Don't you realize he asked you that question as a well placed drama creation device for you?
It totally threw you off and got you all shook up wondering why he would ever think that about you and in getting you all shook up and bothered about it you got part of your drama fix.
See how that works?
Do you see the brilliance of that??
I wish I could meet your man to shake his hand.
I'm proud of guys like this who choose to be men and not symps.
And you like a typical desperate lookin for love in all the wrong places type of woman are so desperate to believe this playa could eventually love you that you immediately try and attach feelings to his questioning your loyalty. You just can't conceive of him having an ulterior and genius motivation for asking you the question of whether you are cheating or not.
Damn this guy deserves the DJ of the Year Award if we had one.
Shyt Kontroller there has to be a middle ground somewhere. It's like the choice is between great passionate sex or having a relationship which equals no passion at all.
Want a great relationship with a woman? Then have absolutely no desire to have a relationship with a woman. You'll get what you may have wanted, only catch is, you won't want it once you get it.
Dagnabit.
Want a great relationship with a woman? Then have absolutely no desire to have a relationship with a woman. You'll get what you may have wanted, only catch is, you won't want it once you get it.
Dagnabit.
The thing is what women don't seem to understand and some men who have yet to open their eyes seem to understand, is that when it comes to intimate relationship between men and women, we are all selfish, cold and calculating. In the end of the day we are all looking for number 1 above everything or everyone else who come second. Therefore any relationship you have with a woman is mearly a symbiotic one at best - You do something nice because you want to get something nice back.
There is no point of pointing fingers and saying only a$$holes or people with low morals are like that because we are all like that.
It is a harsh game if you can't see reality for what it is.
There is no point of pointing fingers and saying only a$$holes or people with low morals are like that because we are all like that.
It is a harsh game if you can't see reality for what it is.
Corey
Don Juan
God if I had a pound for every woman that said she wasn't like other women
KarmaSutra
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KontrollerX said:
Nicely stated and as true as the day is getting shorter.
Congratulations on currently being top poster of SS. This type of recognition has only happened, thus far, to you, Rollo and myself for as long as I've been here.
You deserve every accolade my friend.
KontrollerX - "puppy dog" = a man who has no backbone, who lost their own identity just to please me...backrubs, footrubs, sent me to the spa all the time, cooked for me, etc. I was with this man for 4 years - spoiled me rotten in anyway he could. I think he bought things to make up for other things he felt he lacked within himeself - he said it made him happy to buy me stuff. Only person who ever took me house shopping and bought the house I picked out to move me in- talk about over the top, but I couldn't even browse in a store without him buying anything and everything I looked at or showed a remote interest in. It was too much for me - we never had a real argument -he was too busy kissing my ass.
I need a good argument in my relationships once in awhile. I think that it actually helps makes a relationship grow. There is something wrong if you're in a relationship and you never argue - no 2 people can agree always - how boring would that be.
As far as horoscopes - it's not nonsense - if you read about traits of the different signs it could help you with understanding people and know of their likes and dislikes, values, thinking, what motivates them, how sexual they are. Astrology comes from the placement of the planets -it's all about energy - but that's a completely different subject so I'll leave it alone.
Compromise - How can you say that gets you nowhere? We compromise daily in our life whether it be with co-workers, your boss, buying a car, dealing with your kids, etc-so why wouldn't you compromise in a relationship. That's just foolish to say that. Why would you expect a woman to ignore their needs and wants because you can't compromise. That would only cause resentment - if you were with someone who hated sports but she sat there with you week after week wouldn't if only be fair to in turn do something that she liked to do regardless or not if you liked it? If you sincerely think you don't need to compromise then i don't think you will never find a lasting relationship.
The "chase" thing: I agree with the dumping once you get what you want thing under different circumstances, not after 3 years. I was obsessed with this guy john in my high school years and we fooled around a few times at parties but never had sex or anything but I wanted him for my boyfriend - to lose my virginity to and instead he went out with a good friend of mine instead of me . Well I moved away for 2 years , lost my virginity and when I moved back in the area - I let a friend know I wanted to see "john". Well next thing I know John is at my apartment and we started fooling around - he's in my bed and we're messing around - I start doing a dirty deed and then he wanted me to "**ck him... I lifted my head, looked at him laying naked with a stiff one - leaned over and kissed his forehead and said no - this is not what I wanted. I had him get dressed and leave. I loved this guy or so I thought - he was "the one" for over 4 years and when I was given my chance to be with John I didn't want it. He was definately better left as a "fantasy" because reality sucked. In my current situation it's not a "chase" because in a sense I already have what I want - I'm not filled with illusions and fantasies - we've both seen each other at our worst and I know his faults and appreciate them as much as the good qualities because that's what makes him - him. Take away the faults and it wouldnt be the same person.
As far "going above and beyond" - he goes out of his way to make sure I am pleased multiple times to his one - and if the so called chase ended between us our desire would not change sexually. In all my relationships it's always been the guy who gets lazy in the relationship once they think they have me and they don't listen to my "warnings" when I'm not happy and then when I end it suddenly they wake up and change... then it's too little too late.
I need a good argument in my relationships once in awhile. I think that it actually helps makes a relationship grow. There is something wrong if you're in a relationship and you never argue - no 2 people can agree always - how boring would that be.
As far as horoscopes - it's not nonsense - if you read about traits of the different signs it could help you with understanding people and know of their likes and dislikes, values, thinking, what motivates them, how sexual they are. Astrology comes from the placement of the planets -it's all about energy - but that's a completely different subject so I'll leave it alone.
Compromise - How can you say that gets you nowhere? We compromise daily in our life whether it be with co-workers, your boss, buying a car, dealing with your kids, etc-so why wouldn't you compromise in a relationship. That's just foolish to say that. Why would you expect a woman to ignore their needs and wants because you can't compromise. That would only cause resentment - if you were with someone who hated sports but she sat there with you week after week wouldn't if only be fair to in turn do something that she liked to do regardless or not if you liked it? If you sincerely think you don't need to compromise then i don't think you will never find a lasting relationship.
The "chase" thing: I agree with the dumping once you get what you want thing under different circumstances, not after 3 years. I was obsessed with this guy john in my high school years and we fooled around a few times at parties but never had sex or anything but I wanted him for my boyfriend - to lose my virginity to and instead he went out with a good friend of mine instead of me . Well I moved away for 2 years , lost my virginity and when I moved back in the area - I let a friend know I wanted to see "john". Well next thing I know John is at my apartment and we started fooling around - he's in my bed and we're messing around - I start doing a dirty deed and then he wanted me to "**ck him... I lifted my head, looked at him laying naked with a stiff one - leaned over and kissed his forehead and said no - this is not what I wanted. I had him get dressed and leave. I loved this guy or so I thought - he was "the one" for over 4 years and when I was given my chance to be with John I didn't want it. He was definately better left as a "fantasy" because reality sucked. In my current situation it's not a "chase" because in a sense I already have what I want - I'm not filled with illusions and fantasies - we've both seen each other at our worst and I know his faults and appreciate them as much as the good qualities because that's what makes him - him. Take away the faults and it wouldnt be the same person.
As far "going above and beyond" - he goes out of his way to make sure I am pleased multiple times to his one - and if the so called chase ended between us our desire would not change sexually. In all my relationships it's always been the guy who gets lazy in the relationship once they think they have me and they don't listen to my "warnings" when I'm not happy and then when I end it suddenly they wake up and change... then it's too little too late.
Igetit!
Moderator
I'm curious to know how this guy treats you. Like what he does to make you happy,what he does to make you angry/upset,etc.
I mean in one sentence you blast him,then in another,you talk about how much you love him. How does this guy treat you?
I mean in one sentence you blast him,then in another,you talk about how much you love him. How does this guy treat you?
KontrollerX -said
We have our own identity and wants out of life and we approach women in such a way that they'll just have to work around how we live our lives if they want to be in it.
I find your statement to be very selfish - too selfish and closed off for anyone to ever enter your life - Our lifes revolve around the people that matter in our lifes - to prioritize work, family, love. If sounds like you aren't prepared to do anthing in a relationship - you have a serious case of "ME" syndrome.
We have our own identity and wants out of life and we approach women in such a way that they'll just have to work around how we live our lives if they want to be in it.
I find your statement to be very selfish - too selfish and closed off for anyone to ever enter your life - Our lifes revolve around the people that matter in our lifes - to prioritize work, family, love. If sounds like you aren't prepared to do anthing in a relationship - you have a serious case of "ME" syndrome.
MoveYourAss...
Senior Don Juan
The ME-syndrome is what I called narcissistic. It's ego-protection and very attractive to immature girls/women. The one which see through the manipulative mask and do not want are "next'ed" or disqualified for other reasons, so the rejection is not harmful for the ego. The self cannot be questioned.blue08 said:
Nacissism is based on unfaced FEAR - not very manly.
DJDamage uses the excuse / justification that "we are all like that". I think it is indeed an often neglected task to be / stay in / develop contact with your raw, primal sources and impulses. This is one of the main problems of the AFC, confident sexual vibe, -aura and -action instead of nicy-nicy.
The good news is that you do NOT have to neglect this delicious and powerfull stuff when you decide to develop further, not only to the primal side but ALSO (!) to a humanistic, cultivated man knowing when (and when not) to apply self-control.
The miraculous "quality-women" actually are the ones which do the respective thing in the female modus.
But Blue08,
I realized that about all the rambling around I forgot the actual motivation for you to post or to continue to do so. What is it you are looking for here?
'Cause: Basically all agree that the guy will not change. Even through counselling, as you stated. So that's it, take it or leave it. Or not? Afraid of being alone (40+) ?
LovelyLady
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Just peeking in during a very busy morning... I'm curious Blueo8, if you have any children and if you have ever been married?
What is his sign? And what do you think and feel about the two threads I suggested?
What is his sign? And what do you think and feel about the two threads I suggested?
KontrollerX
Master Don Juan
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"puppy dog" = a man who has no backbone,"
This is what you want to turn your current fvck buddy into and by your own admission it leads to a place of zero attraction and zero wet panties. On the surface this kind of guy reads like every woman's dream but its just not the case. How sad for all the rich AFC's out there.
"I think he bought things to make up for other things he felt he lacked within himeself"
You of course returned all the items to him that he bought for you after the relationship was over correct?
I'd hate to think of you as just another gold digger that rationalizes her callousness and greed under the guise of it being a genuine gift from the heart from your former man rather than the man just not knowing any better.
Seriously accepting gifts from such a man is morally equivalent to accepting sexual favors from a retarded person of legal age. Meaning it may be legal to accept this under the law of the land but its still immoral as fvck.
Not that I really give a sh!t about morals anymore but we've got a lot of preachers on Sosuave that do and tell me all the time about how I'm wrong and that a majority of women are moral after all.
So yeah will you prove their point and tell me all about how you returned the house and other items to the man after the relationship was over because he just didn't know any better or did you instead do something equally philanthropic and simply sell the items and give the proceeds to a worthy charity?
I'd really like to know...
"I need a good argument in my relationships once in awhile."
This is a sick need for drama and excitement as I see you've brought up the "boring" word again meaning you can't live without these two self destructive desires.
I identified my own sick need for it as well thanks to therapy and this forum.
My parents used to fight all the time so I wanted to relive that and make it right by finding girlfriends that were prone to meaningless conflict such as this and re-live my past vicariously through the new relationship.
And I did so subconsciously for the need to try and make things right all over again like I did when I was young by playing the peacemaker for my parents. A position no parents should ever put their child ie the role of peacemaker and therapist and especially not before that child has any deep seated maturity about them at all to fully understand the situation if ever.
Parents raising their kids like this creates this sick need for drama of this sort in them.
And make no mistake about it this need for drama and excitement to feel alive or for whatever reason is a sickness. Its an anathema to being a healthy human being.
Perhaps the same thing fvcked you up and gave you this need also or maybe it was something else for you?
Regardless whatever is causing this need for arguments and conflict in you again is mental sickness and you need to find out the source and purge it from your life.
Its not at all healthy.
You might think its healthy because it feels so good but thats the same kind of self destructive rationalization a drug addict uses to continue using their drug of choice.
It feels good.
Yeah it feels good but its killing them just like your need for drama and excitement led you to wasting three years of your life chasing an illusion.
You have to work to break your addiction.
"Compromise - How can you say that gets you nowhere?"
Umm because it doesn't...
"We compromise daily in our life whether it be with co-workers, your boss, buying a car"
Wrong on all counts.
At least for me anyway.
I own my own business and to be honest I can afford just about any car that I want but I'm not much of an automobile freak like most guys. I just buy solid point A to point B machines and thats it. So no compromise there either.
"dealing with your kids"
No offense to any fellow DJ fathers out there but responding to Blue...
I'd never be stupid enough to have any kids as it'd be stupid for me in particular since my goals in life revolve around aquiring as much money and poontang as I can get my hands on and yeah busting my ass to feed some little bastard isn't high up on the to do list. So yeah lets see now and tally up the score shall we?
Blue you are 0 for 4 I do believe.
Ooh ouch!
"etc-so why wouldn't you compromise in a relationship."
I like watching what I want to watch when I want to watch it, playing videogames whenever I want to, spending time alone whenever I want, not waking up to some b!tch making my arm numb, I don't particularly enjoy cuddling, I hate sh!tty chick flicks like Sex in the City and will not under pain of death be drug to see such an abomination and yeah Miley Cyrus is about as entertaining to me as beating off with sandpaper. Need anymore reasons or this good enough???
"Why would you expect a woman to ignore their needs and wants because you can't compromise."
Oh I don't!
When her wants become incredibly important to her over mine I kindly direct her to the door.
"That would only cause resentment wouldn't if only be fair to in turn do something that she liked to do regardless or not if you liked it?"
Now why would I do that and change the entire dynamic and give up my power to some woman that clearly knows the score and tolerates my decadent lifestyle?
That'd just be foolishness on my part.
"If you sincerely think you don't need to compromise then i don't think you will never find a lasting relationship."
Thats great!
I don't want a lasting relationship, a girlfriend or a marriage.
I'm perfectly happy with the pump em and dump em lifestyle provided to me by Leykis 101.
"Well I moved away for 2 years , lost my virginity and when I moved back when I was given my chance to be with John I didn't want it."
Yeesh no wonder you named yourself Blue.
Talk about giving a guy a massive case of blue balls!
This is like a story that would be recounted to D!ck Masterson about how fvcked up women can be and then he responds "Jeeesssus Christ!" in that hilarious way that he does it.
I'd almost think spiritual karma were true considering the current situation of the new guy boning you for three years and not giving you a relationship if I didn't know that deep down you love this scenario because of the chase of it all and the forbidden love fantasy you are cooking up about knowing it will never happen for you and this guy but dreaming about the love anyway as he pounds you furiously from the back.
"He was definately better left as a "fantasy" because reality sucked. In my current situation it's not a "chase" because in a sense I already have what I want."
Well actually you only have enough currently to stay with him ie the drama and excitement of not getting a relationship with him but yeah you do want to break him and have a relationship with him but thats not happening anytime soon so you don't totally have all that you want.
"As far "going above and beyond" - he goes out of his way to make sure I am pleased multiple times to his one"
Its no problem you realize.
We men are ready to rock 24/7 basically.
And this is all that he wants from you anyway so again he's getting all that he wants while you only get some of what you want.
Great DJ this guy.
"and if the so called chase ended between us our desire would not change sexually."
See thats what you think but we clued in men know better.
A while after the chase ends you'd be looking and scoping out the horizon for the big and better deal.
"In all my relationships it's always been the guy who gets lazy in the relationship once they think they have me and they don't listen to my "warnings"
What they need to do is just keep doing what they're doing and ignore your warnings.
If you decide to leave they need to say see ya later.
Before they know it you'll be back to being your insatiable self lusting all over them.
"I find your statement to be very selfish"
And I find your lack of faith disturbing.
"Our lifes revolve around the people that matter in our lifes."
If you are not a leader you will most certainly be a follower when it comes to relationships.
The man must lead and the woman must follow and when that alignment is thrown out of balance neither man nor woman is happy.
The feminists can harp on all day about how wrong what I've just said is but they can't fight their own biology.
You did not like the man buying you all those things, his being at your beck and call turned you off.
Why?
Quite simply because he was the b!tch and you were his master.
Turn the roles around and you become insatiable for your man, the proof is in your three year slavery to the man that rocked your world and your panties off by keeping the most power in the relationship fully dominating and controlling you and in the best way possible through the mind because you were free to leave at anytime but chose to stay because you just couldn't get enough of his power over you.
I rest my case.
This is what you want to turn your current fvck buddy into and by your own admission it leads to a place of zero attraction and zero wet panties. On the surface this kind of guy reads like every woman's dream but its just not the case. How sad for all the rich AFC's out there.
"I think he bought things to make up for other things he felt he lacked within himeself"
You of course returned all the items to him that he bought for you after the relationship was over correct?
I'd hate to think of you as just another gold digger that rationalizes her callousness and greed under the guise of it being a genuine gift from the heart from your former man rather than the man just not knowing any better.
Seriously accepting gifts from such a man is morally equivalent to accepting sexual favors from a retarded person of legal age. Meaning it may be legal to accept this under the law of the land but its still immoral as fvck.
Not that I really give a sh!t about morals anymore but we've got a lot of preachers on Sosuave that do and tell me all the time about how I'm wrong and that a majority of women are moral after all.
So yeah will you prove their point and tell me all about how you returned the house and other items to the man after the relationship was over because he just didn't know any better or did you instead do something equally philanthropic and simply sell the items and give the proceeds to a worthy charity?
I'd really like to know...
"I need a good argument in my relationships once in awhile."
This is a sick need for drama and excitement as I see you've brought up the "boring" word again meaning you can't live without these two self destructive desires.
I identified my own sick need for it as well thanks to therapy and this forum.
My parents used to fight all the time so I wanted to relive that and make it right by finding girlfriends that were prone to meaningless conflict such as this and re-live my past vicariously through the new relationship.
And I did so subconsciously for the need to try and make things right all over again like I did when I was young by playing the peacemaker for my parents. A position no parents should ever put their child ie the role of peacemaker and therapist and especially not before that child has any deep seated maturity about them at all to fully understand the situation if ever.
Parents raising their kids like this creates this sick need for drama of this sort in them.
And make no mistake about it this need for drama and excitement to feel alive or for whatever reason is a sickness. Its an anathema to being a healthy human being.
Perhaps the same thing fvcked you up and gave you this need also or maybe it was something else for you?
Regardless whatever is causing this need for arguments and conflict in you again is mental sickness and you need to find out the source and purge it from your life.
Its not at all healthy.
You might think its healthy because it feels so good but thats the same kind of self destructive rationalization a drug addict uses to continue using their drug of choice.
It feels good.
Yeah it feels good but its killing them just like your need for drama and excitement led you to wasting three years of your life chasing an illusion.
You have to work to break your addiction.
"Compromise - How can you say that gets you nowhere?"
Umm because it doesn't...
"We compromise daily in our life whether it be with co-workers, your boss, buying a car"
Wrong on all counts.
At least for me anyway.
I own my own business and to be honest I can afford just about any car that I want but I'm not much of an automobile freak like most guys. I just buy solid point A to point B machines and thats it. So no compromise there either.
"dealing with your kids"
No offense to any fellow DJ fathers out there but responding to Blue...
I'd never be stupid enough to have any kids as it'd be stupid for me in particular since my goals in life revolve around aquiring as much money and poontang as I can get my hands on and yeah busting my ass to feed some little bastard isn't high up on the to do list. So yeah lets see now and tally up the score shall we?
Blue you are 0 for 4 I do believe.
Ooh ouch!
"etc-so why wouldn't you compromise in a relationship."
I like watching what I want to watch when I want to watch it, playing videogames whenever I want to, spending time alone whenever I want, not waking up to some b!tch making my arm numb, I don't particularly enjoy cuddling, I hate sh!tty chick flicks like Sex in the City and will not under pain of death be drug to see such an abomination and yeah Miley Cyrus is about as entertaining to me as beating off with sandpaper. Need anymore reasons or this good enough???
"Why would you expect a woman to ignore their needs and wants because you can't compromise."
Oh I don't!
When her wants become incredibly important to her over mine I kindly direct her to the door.
"That would only cause resentment wouldn't if only be fair to in turn do something that she liked to do regardless or not if you liked it?"
Now why would I do that and change the entire dynamic and give up my power to some woman that clearly knows the score and tolerates my decadent lifestyle?
That'd just be foolishness on my part.
"If you sincerely think you don't need to compromise then i don't think you will never find a lasting relationship."
Thats great!
I don't want a lasting relationship, a girlfriend or a marriage.
I'm perfectly happy with the pump em and dump em lifestyle provided to me by Leykis 101.
"Well I moved away for 2 years , lost my virginity and when I moved back when I was given my chance to be with John I didn't want it."
Yeesh no wonder you named yourself Blue.
Talk about giving a guy a massive case of blue balls!
This is like a story that would be recounted to D!ck Masterson about how fvcked up women can be and then he responds "Jeeesssus Christ!" in that hilarious way that he does it.
I'd almost think spiritual karma were true considering the current situation of the new guy boning you for three years and not giving you a relationship if I didn't know that deep down you love this scenario because of the chase of it all and the forbidden love fantasy you are cooking up about knowing it will never happen for you and this guy but dreaming about the love anyway as he pounds you furiously from the back.
"He was definately better left as a "fantasy" because reality sucked. In my current situation it's not a "chase" because in a sense I already have what I want."
Well actually you only have enough currently to stay with him ie the drama and excitement of not getting a relationship with him but yeah you do want to break him and have a relationship with him but thats not happening anytime soon so you don't totally have all that you want.
"As far "going above and beyond" - he goes out of his way to make sure I am pleased multiple times to his one"
Its no problem you realize.
We men are ready to rock 24/7 basically.
And this is all that he wants from you anyway so again he's getting all that he wants while you only get some of what you want.
Great DJ this guy.
"and if the so called chase ended between us our desire would not change sexually."
See thats what you think but we clued in men know better.
A while after the chase ends you'd be looking and scoping out the horizon for the big and better deal.
"In all my relationships it's always been the guy who gets lazy in the relationship once they think they have me and they don't listen to my "warnings"
What they need to do is just keep doing what they're doing and ignore your warnings.
If you decide to leave they need to say see ya later.
Before they know it you'll be back to being your insatiable self lusting all over them.
"I find your statement to be very selfish"
And I find your lack of faith disturbing.
"Our lifes revolve around the people that matter in our lifes."
If you are not a leader you will most certainly be a follower when it comes to relationships.
The man must lead and the woman must follow and when that alignment is thrown out of balance neither man nor woman is happy.
The feminists can harp on all day about how wrong what I've just said is but they can't fight their own biology.
You did not like the man buying you all those things, his being at your beck and call turned you off.
Why?
Quite simply because he was the b!tch and you were his master.
Turn the roles around and you become insatiable for your man, the proof is in your three year slavery to the man that rocked your world and your panties off by keeping the most power in the relationship fully dominating and controlling you and in the best way possible through the mind because you were free to leave at anytime but chose to stay because you just couldn't get enough of his power over you.
I rest my case.
MoveYourAss...
Senior Don Juan
But isn't accepting sexual favours from a retarded person of legal age just the way you see your interaction with women?KontrollerX said:
"that a majority of women are moral after all. " who said that?
It may well be. And this drama stuff should be avoided, of course. But a confrontation might lead to a new solution, also.KontrollerX said:
It's basically too much black and white thinking here. Ideology, that is.
180 degrees from wrong is still wrong.KontrollerX said:
Maybe you should try it again. You do not have to be weak for doing that.KontrollerX said:
If she's a real bytch: Well done. Otherwise you might miss an experience. If you even can't stand a minimum temporal rejection of your wants which may not even be personal, the problem seems to be yours. Non-bytchy quality-women have their own head. And I do not like puppets.KontrollerX said:
Sorry, dude. The absolute unwillingness of (temporarily) giving up on power is, again, a basic personality trait of a narcissist. A Fear of losing control.KontrollerX said:
When you learn to let go you will find that power miraculously comes back to you anytime.
Blue08 stated: "and if the so called chase ended between us our desire would not change sexually."
Well, now that seems actually quite naive to me. At least with the current guy.
Too black and white, again.KontrollerX said:
The man must be willing and able to lead at any time it is necessary, and some times just to do it, and the woman should be natural enough to trust him there. But there are actually times when the woman is the one with the better judgement. And that is alright.
If she's just testing or bytching, and problable all are from time to time, you will (for instance by this site) learn to identify this and act accordingly.
Do you remember the DJBC? First article or so. The way from AFC to jerk, and then to man.
What we need here is a new theory and practical advice to overcome the jerk-phase in order to become a genuine man. There is simply not enough material (I strongly advertise the stuff of Senhor Fingers, though), and the jerk-stuff is simply too attractive for all the AFC's because they are frustrated and need revenge and basic ego-cure, and for the jerks themselves because it is self-affirmative.
KontrollerX
Master Don Juan
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2005
- Messages
- 4,479
- Reaction score
- 182
But isn't accepting sexual favours from a retarded person of legal age just the way you see your interaction with women?
Not really though a man can get so good at this game it almost feels that way but you must keep in mind this entire forum is a testament to all of the men on it not underestimating women's intelligence, conniving and treachery and manipulative nature when it comes to the dating, hookup, relationship, marriage scenes.
So basically what I'm saying is all of us being here is a sign of respect for our adversary's intelligence when it comes to these things.
We are here in an attempt to stay one step ahead and ontop of our game at all times or as much as humanly possible.
So though a man can get good enough to where it may seem like its taking candy from a baby its really not an equivalent comparison as the success he is experiencing is a result of his skill.
Whereas taking candy from a baby or sex favors from a tard requires no skill at all.
that a majority of women are moral after all. " who said that?
Clearly you've never read the Sosuave Discussion Forum to be posing this question to me.
Nice dodge btw of not calling Blue out to answer my questions about her morality.
Its brutally clear to me where your agenda lies.
Are you an extra account of iqqi or potato or are we to believe you are a real and new person and not just a cleverly disguised troll account???
Apologies if you are just a student of the game like TheHumanist but reading your replies and how they are dodging calling Blue out for anything just sends my troll sensor to red alert status.
But a confrontation might lead to a new solution, also
Again you are dodging the issue and painting a rosier picture than the one Blue has actually laid out as you are trying to fix her post for her and have it make logical sense to the men on this forum but here is what she actually got across in her post...
Blue has stated she has a NEED to have arguments in her relationships.
She did not suggest that they were needed at times to solve legitimate relationship problems nor did she give us enough information to go on to assume that her relationships required arguments for problem solving.
She just said she needed them and thinks without them a relationship would be boring indicating her sick way of viewing relationships and needing needless drama and excitement like this for them to survive as anything less than a chaotic relationship cannot survive in her world.
In short she argues for the sake of argument.
Kind of like what you seem to be doing in this topic.
Which of course is but one of many subtle troll tactics but maybe I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt for now as a student of the game that likes to argue to see what new thing he can possibly learn.
Maybe you should try it again. You do not have to be weak for doing that.
If I don't like it I don't like it.
Its not an issue of being weak or strong.
Its an issue of preference due to no inner drive to engage in the act because it does nothing for me ie is not beneficial to me.
Understand?
you might miss an experience
I think I speak for all men when I say I can handle not experiencing Sex in the City reruns or Miley Cyrus concerts or any Justin Timerlake video or news about Lilo or Brangelina.
can't stand a minimum temporal rejection
You're missing the point entirely.
See I could tolerate it I just choose not to.
And for me its not about turning women into puppets.
I just have only one use for them and thats it.
They apparently enjoy my use for them as they can't seem to get enough of me these days and when they decide that listening to a Jessica Simpson CD is more important than me they are welcome to do so.
At their own house.
basic personality trait of a narcissist. A Fear of losing control
The main drive behind narcissism is aquiring praise and I could care less what anyone much less a chick I only want to bone thinks of me.
But there are actually times when the woman is the one with the better judgement. And that is alright
Its alright for you maybe but I'm actively choosing to be the captain of my own ship.
I am consciously aware of what I am doing and how I am leading my life and what my goals are which is why your entire narcissism argument fails.
Narcissists do not know why they do what they do on a conscious level and they callously use others.
I care about friends and family and live Leykis 101.
Narcissists only care about themselves and like to crush women emotionally.
I just have sex with chicks without the emotional destroying part of it. Big difference.
Its not about protecting ego, its about my having no use for relationships of any kind.
You can't even say I'd be callous for using women for sex as they use me for it just the same.
See what this forum should be about by its very name of Don Juan is about encouraging the player lifestyle above all else.
AFC's are programmed from birth on up to create a marriage and family and they have that message beat into their head so brutally by society and AFC peers that they begin to believe that they really want this deep down as well.
I was brainwashed just like this and didn't feel like I'd be worth anything unless I got married and started a family and had kids but fortunately this forum helped me avoid that trap.
Anyway this forum's theme brought to it by many unplugged AFC's from its old days seemed to heavily promote the idea of yes becoming a new and improved man but what was the goal or end game for most of these unplugged yet still lost males?
Most of them even the great Pook cited that the goal for changing and I quote was because they wanted a relationship.
Now why did they want that?
Is it because they really wanted that or because the pressure was so great to get that and they'd never been taught another way of living your life that says just hooking up with chicks and moving on is an equally valid way for living one's life and in many cases much more beneficial to the man to do so?
See I think that despite many past DJ's having unplugged from the Matrix there is still some leftover insidious indoctrination inside of them propping up the want of marriage and family or else you ain't sh!t in society's eyes and thats what has to stop.
What course the forum needs to go on is to challenge young men to question what it is that they truly want on a deep level.
Not to make their parents or peers feel good or to fit in but what type of life would make them most happy as individuals.
Is it the white picket fence, white wedding + house and screaming brats? Is it a single loyal girlfriend?? or is it just hooking up with a variety of women and fully living life to the fullest and enjoying one's youth or remaining years left???
Because quite honestly I think the pressure is so great from society to engage in marriage and relationships to appear normal that most young men have never considered or heard of there being another way to live their lives nor have they really questioned what they really want and I think this forum's role should be promoting the player lifestyle above marriage and relationships because the mainstream media and movies already do enough work as it is to prop that up.
Do you remember the DJBC? First article or so. The way from AFC to jerk, and then to man.
What we need here is a new theory and practical advice to overcome the jerk-phase in order to become a genuine man. There is simply not enough material (I strongly advertise the stuff of Senhor Fingers, though), and the jerk-stuff is simply too attractive for all the AFC's because they are frustrated and need revenge and basic ego-cure, and for the jerks themselves because it is self-affirmative.
Ahh so its fingz I'm talking to.
In anycase I don't think we need a new theory to overcome the jerk phase.
I mean again I ask have you read the Discussion Forum for any length of time?
If anything the jerk phase would be a step up for most of those kids.
Something, anything to get them to stop being so sympish would be a good start.
In anycase if you have been trying to imply I prop up and live the jerk lifestyle or you view Leykis 101 or similar teachings as promoting jerk behaviour out of revenge you are dead wrong at least in my case and the many posters that follow and ask for my advice. We in short are doing what we do because it works and we don't even view it as being jerks. Thats all on you and your perception. Women might think us jerks but in reality we are players. We moved on from the Pook and Senor Fingerz way of doing business which is great advice for a would be family man and good training wheels and senior highschool type advice for any young man to begin with but listening to Tom Leykis, Metaphysical and Player Supreme and hell KarmaSutra who is a balance between these two differing groups well now thats the university course.
Certainly there are guys out to be outright nasty jerks out of revenge but I'm just not seeing them on the Discussion Forum or any board here for that matter and even if a bunch showed up some day by your own admission your work under the Senor Fingerz name is already adequate to help those poor saps let go of their anger and find out what type of DJ they want to be ie would be family man provider or player that makes women insatiable for him wherever he goes and gives no love to these hoes.
Not really though a man can get so good at this game it almost feels that way but you must keep in mind this entire forum is a testament to all of the men on it not underestimating women's intelligence, conniving and treachery and manipulative nature when it comes to the dating, hookup, relationship, marriage scenes.
So basically what I'm saying is all of us being here is a sign of respect for our adversary's intelligence when it comes to these things.
We are here in an attempt to stay one step ahead and ontop of our game at all times or as much as humanly possible.
So though a man can get good enough to where it may seem like its taking candy from a baby its really not an equivalent comparison as the success he is experiencing is a result of his skill.
Whereas taking candy from a baby or sex favors from a tard requires no skill at all.
that a majority of women are moral after all. " who said that?
Clearly you've never read the Sosuave Discussion Forum to be posing this question to me.
Nice dodge btw of not calling Blue out to answer my questions about her morality.
Its brutally clear to me where your agenda lies.
Are you an extra account of iqqi or potato or are we to believe you are a real and new person and not just a cleverly disguised troll account???
Apologies if you are just a student of the game like TheHumanist but reading your replies and how they are dodging calling Blue out for anything just sends my troll sensor to red alert status.
But a confrontation might lead to a new solution, also
Again you are dodging the issue and painting a rosier picture than the one Blue has actually laid out as you are trying to fix her post for her and have it make logical sense to the men on this forum but here is what she actually got across in her post...
Blue has stated she has a NEED to have arguments in her relationships.
She did not suggest that they were needed at times to solve legitimate relationship problems nor did she give us enough information to go on to assume that her relationships required arguments for problem solving.
She just said she needed them and thinks without them a relationship would be boring indicating her sick way of viewing relationships and needing needless drama and excitement like this for them to survive as anything less than a chaotic relationship cannot survive in her world.
In short she argues for the sake of argument.
Kind of like what you seem to be doing in this topic.
Which of course is but one of many subtle troll tactics but maybe I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt for now as a student of the game that likes to argue to see what new thing he can possibly learn.
Maybe you should try it again. You do not have to be weak for doing that.
If I don't like it I don't like it.
Its not an issue of being weak or strong.
Its an issue of preference due to no inner drive to engage in the act because it does nothing for me ie is not beneficial to me.
Understand?
you might miss an experience
I think I speak for all men when I say I can handle not experiencing Sex in the City reruns or Miley Cyrus concerts or any Justin Timerlake video or news about Lilo or Brangelina.
can't stand a minimum temporal rejection
You're missing the point entirely.
See I could tolerate it I just choose not to.
And for me its not about turning women into puppets.
I just have only one use for them and thats it.
They apparently enjoy my use for them as they can't seem to get enough of me these days and when they decide that listening to a Jessica Simpson CD is more important than me they are welcome to do so.
At their own house.
basic personality trait of a narcissist. A Fear of losing control
The main drive behind narcissism is aquiring praise and I could care less what anyone much less a chick I only want to bone thinks of me.
But there are actually times when the woman is the one with the better judgement. And that is alright
Its alright for you maybe but I'm actively choosing to be the captain of my own ship.
I am consciously aware of what I am doing and how I am leading my life and what my goals are which is why your entire narcissism argument fails.
Narcissists do not know why they do what they do on a conscious level and they callously use others.
I care about friends and family and live Leykis 101.
Narcissists only care about themselves and like to crush women emotionally.
I just have sex with chicks without the emotional destroying part of it. Big difference.
Its not about protecting ego, its about my having no use for relationships of any kind.
You can't even say I'd be callous for using women for sex as they use me for it just the same.
See what this forum should be about by its very name of Don Juan is about encouraging the player lifestyle above all else.
AFC's are programmed from birth on up to create a marriage and family and they have that message beat into their head so brutally by society and AFC peers that they begin to believe that they really want this deep down as well.
I was brainwashed just like this and didn't feel like I'd be worth anything unless I got married and started a family and had kids but fortunately this forum helped me avoid that trap.
Anyway this forum's theme brought to it by many unplugged AFC's from its old days seemed to heavily promote the idea of yes becoming a new and improved man but what was the goal or end game for most of these unplugged yet still lost males?
Most of them even the great Pook cited that the goal for changing and I quote was because they wanted a relationship.
Now why did they want that?
Is it because they really wanted that or because the pressure was so great to get that and they'd never been taught another way of living your life that says just hooking up with chicks and moving on is an equally valid way for living one's life and in many cases much more beneficial to the man to do so?
See I think that despite many past DJ's having unplugged from the Matrix there is still some leftover insidious indoctrination inside of them propping up the want of marriage and family or else you ain't sh!t in society's eyes and thats what has to stop.
What course the forum needs to go on is to challenge young men to question what it is that they truly want on a deep level.
Not to make their parents or peers feel good or to fit in but what type of life would make them most happy as individuals.
Is it the white picket fence, white wedding + house and screaming brats? Is it a single loyal girlfriend?? or is it just hooking up with a variety of women and fully living life to the fullest and enjoying one's youth or remaining years left???
Because quite honestly I think the pressure is so great from society to engage in marriage and relationships to appear normal that most young men have never considered or heard of there being another way to live their lives nor have they really questioned what they really want and I think this forum's role should be promoting the player lifestyle above marriage and relationships because the mainstream media and movies already do enough work as it is to prop that up.
Do you remember the DJBC? First article or so. The way from AFC to jerk, and then to man.
What we need here is a new theory and practical advice to overcome the jerk-phase in order to become a genuine man. There is simply not enough material (I strongly advertise the stuff of Senhor Fingers, though), and the jerk-stuff is simply too attractive for all the AFC's because they are frustrated and need revenge and basic ego-cure, and for the jerks themselves because it is self-affirmative.
Ahh so its fingz I'm talking to.
In anycase I don't think we need a new theory to overcome the jerk phase.
I mean again I ask have you read the Discussion Forum for any length of time?
If anything the jerk phase would be a step up for most of those kids.
Something, anything to get them to stop being so sympish would be a good start.
In anycase if you have been trying to imply I prop up and live the jerk lifestyle or you view Leykis 101 or similar teachings as promoting jerk behaviour out of revenge you are dead wrong at least in my case and the many posters that follow and ask for my advice. We in short are doing what we do because it works and we don't even view it as being jerks. Thats all on you and your perception. Women might think us jerks but in reality we are players. We moved on from the Pook and Senor Fingerz way of doing business which is great advice for a would be family man and good training wheels and senior highschool type advice for any young man to begin with but listening to Tom Leykis, Metaphysical and Player Supreme and hell KarmaSutra who is a balance between these two differing groups well now thats the university course.
Certainly there are guys out to be outright nasty jerks out of revenge but I'm just not seeing them on the Discussion Forum or any board here for that matter and even if a bunch showed up some day by your own admission your work under the Senor Fingerz name is already adequate to help those poor saps let go of their anger and find out what type of DJ they want to be ie would be family man provider or player that makes women insatiable for him wherever he goes and gives no love to these hoes.
MoveYourAss...
Senior Don Juan
I agree I didn't go as harsh and as detailled on blue08 as you did. But I told her it's not only his fault, she's addicted to his (dominant) sex, changing him wouldn't work or not lead to a satisfying situation,.... quite from the start.
I didn't dodge, though, I didn't even percieve it as bullets. I just think it's very interesting to listen to her perspective. This is not the same as approving it or supplicating to it. You don't invite interesting perspective by bashing someone.
So basically what I'm saying is all of us being here is a sign of respect for our adversary's intelligence when it comes to these things.
I don't percieve women as adversary. It's not a fvcking war to me. The chicks on this trip are not interesting to me.
We are here in an attempt to stay one step ahead and ontop of our game at all times or as much as humanly possible.
My experience is that it also works if you relax. Better even. Of course you need experience for this and can act and react on top whenever this is appropriate / necessary.
Its brutally clear to me where your agenda lies.
Actually my impression is that you have no idea of what I'm talking about.
Apologies if you are just a student of the game
I actually consider myself as graduate. I went through the jerk phase myself (coming from AFC), so I know what I'm talking about. I used to start with this forum a few years ago, and I was basically reading in awe and asking a few stupid questions. Now I came back here and I have the impression I have something to say, at least to many guys out there. To some other ones, it may not be useful, others simply don't want to listen. That's ok.
indicating her sick way of viewing relationships and needing needless drama and excitement
Your interpretation. I read it like: "I need a man who is not supplicating to my every whim, so at times there will be disagreement."
Kind of like what you seem to be doing in this topic.
Thanks for the double bind:nono: same to you, troll tactics, advanced even.
And for me its not about turning women into puppets
Never said this, just that to me it seems the ones which are already are the ones that go for your mindset.
I just have only one use for them and thats it.
I actually believe you are quite lonely. This is not the same as being isolated.
I'm actively choosing to be the captain of my own ship
So am I. This is a main point of this site we agree upon. Just that I enjoy to have well-behaved guests on my ship, listen to my top-level crew and have no problem in temporarily joining other ships on the voyage.
I just have sex with chicks without the emotional destroying part of it
That's fine. But how about the emotionally / spiritually enriching part of it?
You can't even say I'd be callous for using women for sex as they use me for it just the same.
Never did. I do the same, chicks do the same with me. It's just that when it's only this with every chick that it smells like missing something to me.
See what this forum should be about by its very name of Don Juan is about encouraging the player lifestyle above all else.
Here we disagree. It's about a Don Juan lifestyle, big difference.
I was brainwashed just like this and didn't feel like I'd be worth anything unless I got married
I was an AFC for a long time, but it seems it wasn't that bad with me. But I can confirm from experience that marriage is not the solution. Never thought so, though. Still: 180 degrees from wrong is still wrong.
In my impression there are some unqualified marriage proposers here, but usually starters of very young age.
What course the forum needs to go on is to challenge young men to question what it is that they truly want on a deep level.
Agreed 100%. I simply believe the main line of indoctrination is the jerk one, which is very helpful for opening the eyes of the AFC. My aim lies beyond that. And I don't give a sh!t to any societal pressure. I'm well beyond that conflict and this beginner-stuff bores me to death. I simply do not need to fight on that line anymore. I have no intention of fighting the "infamous female conspiracy" to subjugate all mankind. I just improve my life, and if I can sometimes of those around me.
And no, I'm not Fingers. But thanks, I take this as a compliment.
I mean again I ask have you read the Discussion Forum for any length of time?
Thanks for the disqualifier, but I did.
If anything the jerk phase would be a step up for most of those kids.
You don't seem to understand that I completely agree with you on this. But if this basic stuff is the only advice this site is actively giving it would be very poor. I would be sad about this, since this site, which I somehow stumbled upon years ago helped me to become a new man. And yes, some of the often healthily desillusional jerk part was very helpful (and funny). It's just no reason to get bitter.
We in short are doing what we do because it works
Agreed, that's fine. But where's your curiosity to experiment further, to refine your personal skills and traits on a new level?
Just because this is the first thing that worked great for you, you think there is nothing more to the subject?
But it seems to me won't settle this in this thread.
I didn't dodge, though, I didn't even percieve it as bullets. I just think it's very interesting to listen to her perspective. This is not the same as approving it or supplicating to it. You don't invite interesting perspective by bashing someone.
So basically what I'm saying is all of us being here is a sign of respect for our adversary's intelligence when it comes to these things.
I don't percieve women as adversary. It's not a fvcking war to me. The chicks on this trip are not interesting to me.
We are here in an attempt to stay one step ahead and ontop of our game at all times or as much as humanly possible.
My experience is that it also works if you relax. Better even. Of course you need experience for this and can act and react on top whenever this is appropriate / necessary.
Its brutally clear to me where your agenda lies.
Actually my impression is that you have no idea of what I'm talking about.
Apologies if you are just a student of the game
I actually consider myself as graduate. I went through the jerk phase myself (coming from AFC), so I know what I'm talking about. I used to start with this forum a few years ago, and I was basically reading in awe and asking a few stupid questions. Now I came back here and I have the impression I have something to say, at least to many guys out there. To some other ones, it may not be useful, others simply don't want to listen. That's ok.
indicating her sick way of viewing relationships and needing needless drama and excitement
Your interpretation. I read it like: "I need a man who is not supplicating to my every whim, so at times there will be disagreement."
Kind of like what you seem to be doing in this topic.
Thanks for the double bind:nono: same to you, troll tactics, advanced even.
And for me its not about turning women into puppets
Never said this, just that to me it seems the ones which are already are the ones that go for your mindset.
I just have only one use for them and thats it.
I actually believe you are quite lonely. This is not the same as being isolated.
I'm actively choosing to be the captain of my own ship
So am I. This is a main point of this site we agree upon. Just that I enjoy to have well-behaved guests on my ship, listen to my top-level crew and have no problem in temporarily joining other ships on the voyage.
I just have sex with chicks without the emotional destroying part of it
That's fine. But how about the emotionally / spiritually enriching part of it?
You can't even say I'd be callous for using women for sex as they use me for it just the same.
Never did. I do the same, chicks do the same with me. It's just that when it's only this with every chick that it smells like missing something to me.
See what this forum should be about by its very name of Don Juan is about encouraging the player lifestyle above all else.
Here we disagree. It's about a Don Juan lifestyle, big difference.
I was brainwashed just like this and didn't feel like I'd be worth anything unless I got married
I was an AFC for a long time, but it seems it wasn't that bad with me. But I can confirm from experience that marriage is not the solution. Never thought so, though. Still: 180 degrees from wrong is still wrong.
In my impression there are some unqualified marriage proposers here, but usually starters of very young age.
What course the forum needs to go on is to challenge young men to question what it is that they truly want on a deep level.
Agreed 100%. I simply believe the main line of indoctrination is the jerk one, which is very helpful for opening the eyes of the AFC. My aim lies beyond that. And I don't give a sh!t to any societal pressure. I'm well beyond that conflict and this beginner-stuff bores me to death. I simply do not need to fight on that line anymore. I have no intention of fighting the "infamous female conspiracy" to subjugate all mankind. I just improve my life, and if I can sometimes of those around me.
And no, I'm not Fingers. But thanks, I take this as a compliment.
I mean again I ask have you read the Discussion Forum for any length of time?
Thanks for the disqualifier, but I did.
If anything the jerk phase would be a step up for most of those kids.
You don't seem to understand that I completely agree with you on this. But if this basic stuff is the only advice this site is actively giving it would be very poor. I would be sad about this, since this site, which I somehow stumbled upon years ago helped me to become a new man. And yes, some of the often healthily desillusional jerk part was very helpful (and funny). It's just no reason to get bitter.
We in short are doing what we do because it works
Agreed, that's fine. But where's your curiosity to experiment further, to refine your personal skills and traits on a new level?
Just because this is the first thing that worked great for you, you think there is nothing more to the subject?
But it seems to me won't settle this in this thread.