US needs to take lessons from Europe regarding drastically lowering homicide rate

BackInTheGame78

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Agreed. This was actually the US's policy for many decades. Washington warned against getting embroiled in foreign entanglements. Starting with Wilson (but perhaps earlier) the US started intervening when its security wasn't threatened, resulting in expansion of war, further casualties, proxy wars and instability. Joining NATO was a major precedent and now here we are.

Plus it's inconsistent, or rather consistent in that the US only intervenes militarily when it makes economic sense to do so. It has interests, not allies.

The US still is embroiled...the CIA actually funds both sides of every conflict so they are guaranteed to come out on the right side and claim they "helped them win".
 

Scaramouche

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Hi BackInTheGame,
"....all the technology you use today that has been a direct result of the US Military and Department of Defense spending and research".... "GPS, microwaves, the Internet,Jet engines, satellites, etc.." Really? all the technology?that's absurd,even looking at the few you mention,
far from Europe being the recipient of US invention,mostly it is the reverse case...Let's look at Jet engines: Frank Whittle took out the patent on these,the Germans built the first Jet Planes,the Brits the first Jet Engined passenger Planes.
Satellites:Here the Germans were our pioneers.At the end of WW2 it was a question of whether Russias German V2 Scientists or,the US ones put the first Satellite in orbit,in the event Sputnic won the day.
Microwaves:The first Microwave oven was called "RadaRange"as it was a direct result of Radar Technology a British development.
GPS:Without Satellites it's not really viable,is it?
Internet:Wouldn't have been possible without Computer technology,neither Babbidge nor Turing worked for the US....Your Scientists stood on the shoulders of Giants!
 

Bokanovsky

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Yeah, over here a burglar gets a year in prison. In the states he dies. Just an example.
Are you saying that this a bad thing??

In the states I wouldn't dare to fight a person because "concealed carry". Everyone is on edge because every interaction might be your last.
An armed society is a polite society. Less idiots trying to start fights with strangers is a good thing.

The second amendment is a prehistoric shyte show that prevents the states from progressing. Imo the US of A is a second world country at best.
With all due respect, this is a load of sh!t. The US, with all its problems, is still by far the best place to live for anyone with a modicum of intelligence and ambition. The opportunities for upward mobility and financial success are almost endless. Europe, in contrast, is a good place to live if you're a lazy socialist leach milking the welfare system...or an ambitionless nine-to-fiver who's content with his mind-numbing office job and looks forward to leaving work early on Friday.

As an aside, since this thread was started by a mod, I take it that the ban on political discussion has finally been lifted? :lol:
 

Bokanovsky

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Everything in the US is in a downwards spiral. From music, to movies to politics. I am sorry if I offend some of yall.
The same thing can be said about Europe. Go to Paris, London or any other major European city. It doesn't even feel like Europe anymore. More like some third world dump.
 

BaronOfHair

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The same thing can be said about Europe. Go to Paris, London or any other major European city. It doesn't even feel like Europe anymore. More like some third world dump.
Yeah, those awful foreigners, with their curry restaurants and kebob stands are leading nations away from their true heritage of mashed potatoes and ham. Same way earlier waves of Jewish and French immigrants sent Britain down the highway to ruin, by creating Fish&Chips
 

BaronOfHair

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Unfortunately that isn't how it has ever worked throughout history
If we're talking about life during antiquity or a portion of the medieval era, then you've got something approaching a point. Today, we live in a world of nation-states though, where self-defense is each country's personal responsibility. This really isn't rocket science
 

Gamisch

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Are you saying that this a bad thing??


An armed society is a polite society. Less idiots trying to start fights with strangers is a good thing.


With all due respect, this is a load of sh!t. The US, with all its problems, is still by far the best place to live for anyone with a modicum of intelligence and ambition. The opportunities for upward mobility and financial success are almost endless. Europe, in contrast, is a good place to live if you're a lazy socialist leach milking the welfare system...or an ambitionless nine-to-fiver who's content with his mind-numbing office job and looks forward to leaving work early on Friday.

As an aside, since this thread was started by a mod, I take it that the ban on political discussion has finally been lifted? :lol:
Yes. A burglary isn't a crime so severe that one must die. Prison? Ofcourse. But to die / do more than 5 years is too much

No an armed society is a society that has BY FAR the most mass shootings of all 1st world countries.

No. The US isn't what it used to be. An ambitious man can and will maker bank anywhere he goes. Again, yall confirm the extreme black and white thinking. I don't say we have all the solutions, but yeah, we do have a more humanitarian vision on what a society must look like.

Side Note; none of this is personal so let's keep the discussion civilized!
 

Bokanovsky

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Yes. A burglary isn't a crime so severe that one must die. Prison? Ofcourse. But to die / do more than 5 years is too much
I disagree. A man's house is his castle. People should be able to feel safe on their homes and defend themselves against criminal invaders. If a criminal breaks into your house to steal your stuff and you shoot them, I have zero sympathy for the criminal.

No an armed society is a society that has BY FAR the most mass shootings of all 1st world countries.
Mass shootings are not done by people who carry guns for self-defence. We are talking about two different things here. You said you wouldn't want to get into a fight with someone in the U.S. because they might be packing. I said that people thinking twice before assaulting strangers due to concerns about getting shot was a good thing.

No. The US isn't what it used to be. An ambitious man can and will maker bank anywhere he goes. Again, yall confirm the extreme black and white thinking. I don't say we have all the solutions, but yeah, we do have a more humanitarian vision on what a society must look like.
There is nothing "humanitarian" about giving light sentences to violent criminals and allowing them to continue terrorizing innocent people. In fact, that is the opposite of humanitarianism.
 

Gamisch

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I disagree. A man's house is his castle. People should be able to feel safe on their homes and defend themselves against criminal invaders. If a criminal breaks into your house to steal your stuff and you shoot them, I have zero sympathy for the criminal.


Mass shootings are not done by people who carry guns for self-defence. We are talking about two different things here. You said you wouldn't want to get into a fight with someone in the U.S. because they might be packing. I said that people thinking twice before assaulting strangers due to concerns about getting shot was a good thing.


There is nothing "humanitarian" about giving light sentences to violent criminals and allowing them to continue terrorizing innocent people. In fact, that is the opposite of humanitarianism.
A man's house is indeed his castle. I agree wholeheartedly. I also agree that a burglar takes a huge risk. IF anyone breaks into my house I would also be willing to end him. But still..I am not a judge neither am I God. If a man breaks in due to poverty the law must deal with him. This ain't the wild west.

Violent crimes? Yes. But a burglary isn't necessarily a violent crime.

Oke. But how do you explain that the US is the ONLY first world country that has these mass shooting? Its not hard to figure out that a " legal" gun can easily end up in 1..the wrong hands, and 2. In the hands of a person Turning evil and 3. Gives a person the opportunity to even do the mass shooting. I don't understand how you can defend this. It's undefendedable.

Why don't you say anything about the homeless crisis by the way?

Let me end it with this;

( and this I can do ALL day.)
 

BackInTheGame78

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A man's house is indeed his castle. I agree wholeheartedly. I also agree that a burglar takes a huge risk. IF anyone breaks into my house I would also be willing to end him. But still..I am not a judge neither am I God. If a man breaks in due to poverty the law must deal with him. This ain't the wild west.

Violent crimes? Yes. But a burglary isn't necessarily a violent crime.

Oke. But how do you explain that the US is the ONLY first world country that has these mass shooting? Its not hard to figure out that a " legal" gun can easily end up in 1..the wrong hands, and 2. In the hands of a person Turning evil and 3. Gives a person the opportunity to even do the mass shooting. I don't understand how you can defend this. It's undefendedable.

Why don't you say anything about the homeless crisis by the way?

Let me end it with this;

( and this I can do ALL day.)
Oh...I guess these events never took place then?

 

Bokanovsky

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Oke. But how do you explain that the US is the ONLY first world country that has these mass shooting? Its not hard to figure out that a " legal" gun can easily end up in 1..the wrong hands, and 2. In the hands of a person Turning evil and 3. Gives a person the opportunity to even do the mass shooting. I don't understand how you can defend this. It's undefendedable.
Sure it's possible. But you seem to be under the mistaken impression that a lot of people die in mass shootings. In reality, mass shootings account for a tiny fraction of all gun related deaths. Out of nearly 50,000 gun-related deaths in 2023, less than 100 were the result of mass shootings. Considering that the U.S. population is over 330 million, one's odds of dying in a mass shooting are minuscule. You have a higher chance of being struck by lighting.

More than 50% of the 50,000 number quoted above is attributable to suicides and the rest is mostly gang-related violence (i.e. drug dealers killing each other). If you take gang violence out of the equation and focus on murders affecting regular people, you'd find that the U.S. isn't really any more dangerous than Europe.

Why don't you say anything about the homeless crisis by the way?
The U.S. has a homelessness crisis. Europe has a radical islam crisis. Both places have a major illegal immigration crisis. What's your point? I'm neither American nor European but given the choice, I'd take the U.S. without thinking twice.
 

Gamisch

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Sure it's possible. But you seem to be under the mistaken impression that a lot of people die in mass shootings. In reality, mass shootings account for a tiny fraction of all gun related deaths. Out of nearly 50,000 gun-related deaths in 2023, less than 100 were the result of mass shootings. Considering that the U.S. population is over 330 million, one's odds of dying in a mass shooting are minuscule. You have a higher chance of being struck by lighting.

More than 50% of the 50,000 number quoted above is attributable to suicides and the rest is mostly gang-related violence (i.e. drug dealers killing each other). If you take gang violence out of the equation and focus on murders affecting regular people, you'd find that the U.S. isn't really any more dangerous than Europe.


The U.S. has a homelessness crisis. Europe has a radical islam crisis. Both places have a major illegal immigration crisis. What's your point? I'm neither American nor European but given the choice, I'd take the U.S. without thinking twice.
Oke. We agree to disagree. You like the USA I don't. Some people like Voljswagen some like Opel.

My point is that imo it ain't all as innocent as you sketch it. And that the US cab learn alot from certain European countries to become a better place. That's my point .

And if I'm not mistaken the actual OP had a similar point before The Patriotic Army chimed in as usual, defending all American policies instead of being capable of having a critical look in the mirror. And the latter is exactly why it's going to shyte.
 

Gamisch

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But hey, everything is going great. That's called division. It's easy to say everything is great from a sheltered somewhat secure life. Meanwhile more than half (!!) the population is broke.

Good night
 

ManFromTartarus

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Some raw data. I find it very interesting that when you look at all the different categories of violence it didn't always seem to coincide .











As for the OP, I don't think comparing the USA and a continent full of different countries, with different laws, smaller populations, logistics, and histories, that just can't be applied to one nation.

... and this doesn't even take into account the violence that falls under terrorism.

 

BackInTheGame78

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But hey, everything is going great. That's called division. It's easy to say everything is great from a sheltered somewhat secure life. Meanwhile more than half (!!) the population is broke.

Good night
That's because most people tend to live far above their means here. They aren't really broke. They are broke by choice because of bad decisions they make.

I mean are you really broke when you own a house, 2 cars and a boat? And a Harley as the husbands "Toy"? How many EU families have multiple cars? I'm guessing very few. Especially when you are paying $9+ a gallon for gas.

They can always choose to make better decisions at some point. Most people in the EU can't magically make their jobs pay them more tho.
 
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BillyPilgrim

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Hi BackInTheGame,
"....all the technology you use today that has been a direct result of the US Military and Department of Defense spending and research".... "GPS, microwaves, the Internet,Jet engines, satellites, etc.." Really? all the technology?that's absurd,even looking at the few you mention,
far from Europe being the recipient of US invention,mostly it is the reverse case...Let's look at Jet engines: Frank Whittle took out the patent on these,the Germans built the first Jet Planes,the Brits the first Jet Engined passenger Planes.
Satellites:Here the Germans were our pioneers.At the end of WW2 it was a question of whether Russias German V2 Scientists or,the US ones put the first Satellite in orbit,in the event Sputnic won the day.
Microwaves:The first Microwave oven was called "RadaRange"as it was a direct result of Radar Technology a British development.
GPS:Without Satellites it's not really viable,is it?
Internet:Wouldn't have been possible without Computer technology,neither Babbidge nor Turing worked for the US....Your Scientists stood on the shoulders of Giants!
Lol someone is forgetting the Roswell Crash of 1947
 

Scaramouche

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Hi Billie,
You're dead right......it was rumoured that your Stealth Bomber was based on the recovered craft at Roswell...Your Government elated at knocking off Osama Bin Laden showed a Stealth Helicopter based in Area 51,'nuff said...Do you think we should attribute it to Sirius?
 

Vanderdonck

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Oke. We agree to disagree. You like the USA I don't. Some people like Voljswagen some like Opel.

My point is that imo it ain't all as innocent as you sketch it. And that the US cab learn alot from certain European countries to become a better place. That's my point .

And if I'm not mistaken the actual OP had a similar point before The Patriotic Army chimed in as usual, defending all American policies instead of being capable of having a critical look in the mirror. And the latter is exactly why it's going to shyte.
My perspective - I don't love or hate any nation in terms of political boundaries or patriotism. The US has a lot of flaws but a lot of great qualities. I can't get into loving a social construct or attaching my identity to a flag (except for maybe in the Olympics/World Cup etc. where it's constructive and positive). I'm just not passionate about governments except in what they can do for me since they take my money, or try to. Otherwise they can get out of my face. (Loving the people/culture or natural beauty of a place is a different thing to me.)

Anyway the thesis of this thread is correct, if the US wants to lower its homicide rate it should take a look at some European countries which are free and open (in some respects moreso than the US) yet have reduced violent crime dramatically. But again I have no real solutions.
 
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