Unplugging

[jophil28]

Women have been doing this to guys for years (playing hard to get).
Since this study is only about the effect on women, I'd be curious to see if the effect on men is the same.


So if a guy doesn't know how to play hard to get, he's a member of the "matrix"?
Wow, just wow.

I'm not sure whether you are just being argumentative for it's own sake, or not. Any mention of the word "matrix" seems to trigger off an angry reaction.

However, you have either misunderstood the presenter's words, or you are misquoting him.
The radio presenter said (in a nutshell ) that he did not believe that women were attracted to men who were indifferent .
The article (which pointed to the study) also said as much." Men who were unsure of their feelings..were attractive to women."
That is not quite the same as "playing hard to get".

 

[Jeffst1980]

I think we need to define the "indifference" at play here. I believe women are attracted to displays of indifference towards COMMITMENT, rather than SEXUAL indifference. Playing "hard to get"--pushing her away, etc.-- is a good button pusher, IMO, but when it's all said and done, it's just a game, and she knows it. We aren't chicks, trying to resist advances. When we see an attractive woman, we want to have sex with her--basic biology.

Now, being indifferent EMOTIONALLY is really the way to get her to chase. Refusing to commit right away, continuing to date multiple women, etc.--while STILL showing interest in her is the way to get her interest level to skyrocket. BUT, you have to establish a sexual relationship with her before this will work--she needs to allow herself to expose some vulnerability. So, I think that INITIALLY, you HAVE to pursue, and be persistent, alpha, etc. You should be IMPLICITLY communicating that you aren't the type to settle down right away, and the way to do that is to HIT ON HER, without fear of rejection. A lot of "community guys" don't do that, and that's why they end up with flaky number closes.

There is, of course, a fine line--if you come off as a player, you will face A LOT of resistance. I don't think that this is a bad thing, though. I tend to escalate very fast, and state my intentions in a way that FORCES her to put up initial resistance- but I do it all in a funny way, and as long as she's having fun and still showing some interest, I know it's on. Women want to be chased and play the part of a coquette.



Where the "matrix" screws guys up is by setting the precedent that WOMAN are the ones that go out and "pick" guys to sleep with out of a pool of eager males, and, if you're a guy, that hitting on women or showing sexual interest is the same thing as sexual harassment. This line of thinking even informs the pickup community, necessitating things like opinion openers, etc.

Of course, woman WANT an aggressive man, which is why kino is so important. But, in order to prevent undesirable men that don't "get it" from overstepping their bounds, conventional wisdom says that hitting on women or trying to pick up, etc. is "creepy."

So, for those that live in fear of society's judgment, the alternative is to go out and WAIT for women to show interest in them. Of course, high quality women don't DO this, because they don't have to. If you wait for women to initiate the seduction process, you will attract low quality women.

I'd imagine if we took a survey of the guys complaining about low quality women on here, we'd find that in most cases, the WOMEN showed interest first. This is how most men behave; they wait for women to "choose" them. THAT is the "matrix" at work; not the stuff about being "nice"--it is common knowledge for even the biggest AFC that women tend to go for "jerks."


A man that goes out and ACTIVELY pursues women, overcomes resistance, and gets the girl will simply get a more desirable woman than a guy that "casts his line," so to speak, and sees what's biting. Sure, it's still a numbers game, and there are still plenty of high quality women out there, but there's something to be said for a guy that pursues despite obstacles, instead of taking the easy way out.

 

[Colossus]

I think we need to define the "indifference" at play here. I believe women are attracted to displays of indifference towards COMMITMENT, rather than SEXUAL indifference.

Totally agree. Women will take sexual indifference as you not being attracted to them, and they will likely walk unless they are a headcase. But being indifferent, or at least NEUTRAL, on the commitment thing I think is always good for holding frame and opening things the right way.

Women want to be chased and play the part of a coquette.

Definitely. Guys forget this sometimes. They are too afraid of rejection. I really think it's part of the natural 'game'---the man pursues, the woman resists (playfully). Women LOVE to feel like they were TAKEN. It's a very natural submissive thing that is as feminine as flowers and kittens.[/quote]

So, for those that live in fear of society's judgment, the alternative is to go out and WAIT for women to show interest in them. Of course, high quality women don't DO this, because they don't have to. If you wait for women to initiate the seduction process, you will attract low quality women.

That is a truth that took me almost 30 years to learn, lol. But it really is that simple---if you just wait around for women to show interest and pursue you, you can't scratch your head wondering why you only end up with low quality women.

A man that goes out and ACTIVELY pursues women, overcomes resistance, and gets the girl will simply get a more desirable woman than a guy that "casts his line," so to speak, and sees what's biting. Sure, it's still a numbers game, and there are still plenty of high quality women out there, but there's something to be said for a guy that pursues despite obstacles, instead of taking the easy way out.

Cosign again. If a guy "cant" find a high quality woman, it's one of three things: Lack of quality in himself, lack of active pursuit, or sometimes just a bad dry spell.

 

[zekko]

I'm not sure whether you are just being argumentative for it's own sake, or not. Any mention of the word "matrix" seems to trigger off an angry reaction.

Yeah, it's getting on my nerves.
Maybe I need to take a step back from this stuff. All the absurdities within the pickup community (and surely you must admit there are a ton) seem to be grating on me lately.

The irritation probably comes from watching the community taking something as natural and highly varied as attraction, and trying to boil it down into a strict scientific formula which never fails, despite the fact that many pickup theories are contradictory in the first place. Then take this incohesive whole and wrap it up into some sort of "holy truth" which cannot be questioned.

Then we proclaim ourselves as some sort of elites because we read a pickup forum, dismissing everyone else in the world as living under some sort of delusion that only we can see. But we're special because we're "deep down the rabbit hole" and "took the red pill". It just seems a little over the top to me.
Hey, congratulations, you read some tips to attract women. That doesn't make you Keanu Reeves. Face it, most of this stuff is basically the male version of "The Rules", a dating book for women that was popular a few years back.

Men who were unsure of their feelings..were attractive to women."
That is not quite the same as "playing hard to get".

It's pretty similar, at least in principle. It's being a challenge.

But people might loosely use the term in relation to any specific knowledge or lack of knowledge about "the game".

Yeah, that's what bugs me. It's applied to everything.
Hey, I learned to kino today. Guess I'm out of the matrix.

 

[Boilermaker]

Hey, congratulations, you read some tips to attract women. That doesn't make you Keanu Reeves. Face it, most of this stuff is basically the male version of "The Rules", a dating book for women that was popular a few years back.

So we take ourselves a little seriously. We are glorifying our rules and cooking epic stories out of our experiences. Why does it burn you so bad?

What on earth are you doing here responding to everyone post by post, if every little detail about us keeps bugging you? My father is about your age and he is single, and I'd laugh my ass off if I saw him taking on 25-year-olds at shady internet corners.

My point is, the only reason a person your age could be here is to give valuable advice and share his wisdom. But it seems that you are out of ideas and you don't have the energy (or the will) to produce anything novel so that's why you are being a grumpy old man.

Why don't you waste your time on something you enjoy instead? Sculpture? Fishing? Painting? Chasing skirt?

 

[zekko]

The manipulation of men. THAT is where the matrix resides.

Yeah, that's always been my impression. That's the only way it makes sense.

What gets on my nerves is when guys (as Die Hard puts it) "loosely use the term in relation to any specific knowledge or lack of knowledge about "the game". " Or to put it simply, apply it to everything under the sun. Like being confident, or indifferent.

But mainly it's the smugness that's implied that bugs me.

What on earth are you doing here responding to everyone post by post, if every little detail about us keeps bugging you? My father is about your age and he is single, and I'd laugh my ass off if I saw him taking on 25-year-olds at shady internet corners.

Fair enough. I think I ask myself that question every week.

As you point out, this is a very youth-oriented forum.
Maybe there should be a "Very Mature Man" forum (although there would probably be only about six guys on there lol). The cutoff point here is 25. That's what's considered old around here, I guess.
As you might imagine, what is relevant to the life of a 25 year old and a 50 year old can be worlds apart. That's probably why I wonder what I'm doing here so often.

it seems that you are out of ideas and you don't have the energy (or the will) to produce anything novel so that's why you are being a grumpy old man.

Well, let's see how you feel when you're 50.

 

[Warrior74]

Matrix? That's so old school. These days the kids call learning about game being Incepted and kicked up to the next level. BRAAAAAAAHM.

 

[Jitterbug]

I have no prob with the analogies but personally I think both movies (Matrix and Inception) are pretentious wanks.

Can I join the grumpy old man club, zekko?

 

[jophil28]

I have no prob with the analogies but personally I think both movies (Matrix and Inception) are pretentious wanks.

Can I join the grumpy old man club, zekko?

Perhaps , respect should direct you to consult your Uncle Jophil on that as well ?

 

[JT7890]

You guys seem to be getting way too hog down into theories. If you are honestly dealing with women on a constant basis you are going to be going through all of those levels over and over again.

I want to respond to something that Nutz said:

Nutz

Here is a critical aspect that men need to realize or they may end up not getting laid at all:

Women are indeed competing for men.

....the top 10-20% of men.


What's happening is women are earning money hand over fist, so the old school provider thing, that's simply not going to get you a woman any longer. Due to women's own hypergamy there are fewer men above them to look up to, so of course they're competing.... for that smaller pool of men who are higher status than themselves.

I don't know where to START.


1.) I talk to women EVERYDAY that are NOT earning money hand over fist and still look for the provider type.


2.) The top 10% - 20% of men? Every woman is competing for them? Please define the top 10% of men Nutz?

When you say the top 10% of men let's "assume" you are talking about guys that make over $100k a year WHO ARE ALSO young and physically attractive, you are talking about WELL LESS then 10% of men, more along the lines of 3% - 5% if you go by the actual STATS on high income earners and the age bracket. Most high income earners are OLD and not physically attractive at all, I know you can't be talking about them are you?

MOST women do not even come in CONTACT with men that make over six figures that are young and physically attractive on a daily basis. Matter of fact very rarely do they meet such a guy and because the guy is so rare, most of the time when they meet him they act the same as they do with other guys.

To say that most women are competing for those types of men is ludacris. Most women are competing for the men that's in their AVAILABLE CIRCLE of people and most of the guys in that circle are NOT in the top 10% smh.


3.) "Higher Status" depends upon the region. For example, in the "hood" Higher Status can mean just having rims on your car and some "bread ($1k - $3k)" in your pocket while most of the other dudes don't have shyt. Or in other more middle - to - higher class areas, higher status could mean having a Benz and everybody else has a Honda.

I guess what I'm trying to say is Higher Status is a regional thing, not a universal thing. I can have "low status" in one area (let's say compared to millionares) and have "high status" in middle class areas. But having "high status" in any situation doesn't make me one of the top 10% - 20% of men if you can understand from the examples provided. Again, "higher status" is depended upon the region you are in.

From my experience, if you are physically attractive to the woman (looks, gear, nice ride) and you have a compelling personality (charming, make them laugh, know how to handle them) that's the MAIN THINGS that they look for rather then some sort of "10% - 20% of men status shyt". Being financially well off, having high status, etc., from my experience are extras, if the woman doesn't find you "cute" as they say, then they won't really give you the time of day no matter how much "bread" you holding.

 

[zekko]

Can I join the grumpy old man club, zekko?

See you in 22 years.

The top 10% - 20% of men? Every woman is competing for them? Please define the top 10% of men Nutz

There are other ways to define high status other than money. But you make some good points.

What is considered high status (or good money) can vary a lot by region or social circle. Probably one cause of divorce is a girl goes for the highest value guy in her social circle. Then over the years her social contacts change, and then she finds a guy who is on a much higher level.

I've always been a little dubious about this whole "only the top 10-20% of guys get fed" idea. Girls will generally go for the best guy available to them (some might call this settling).

Then there's self esteem. I know this girl who is very attractive (not super hot but a solid 7.5). She was complaining about her husband and showed me his picture. He was this huge fat sloppy looking dude in a wife beater. My impression was that she had poor self esteem, and didn't think she could get anybody better at the time. Then she got older and realized she had more going for her than she originally thought. I bet there are a lot of girls like that out there.

 

[jophil28]

What is considered high status (or good money) can vary a lot by region or social circle. Probably one cause of divorce is a girl goes for the highest value guy in her social circle. Then over the years her social contacts change, and then she finds a guy who is on a much higher level.

Another very good reason to be the guy who is on the higher level rather than be her husband.

Female Hypergamy as a driver is looming larger in my awareness these days.
When I reflect on the past 30 years I can recall many instances in which both married women or other guys' 'girlfriends' schmoozed up to me with some probing personal questions... so much so that I felt decidedly uncomfortable both for the husband/boyfriend, and myself.
However I always had the option to walk away from these interrogations - not so her husband who often watched his wife "hit on" me in self conscious silence.

At the time I called it harmless flirting by the women. Now i understand the hypergamous dimension involved.

 

[Jitterbug]

I thought you're a member of the Smooth Old Gents club, Uncle Jophil. That's why I didn't ask you.

JT7890, I know plenty of 20 and 30 something men who make over $100K and are in good shape. It's not exactly special. However, it's usually not those guys who get laid regularly. Among the few guys I know who get most of the young hotties, the majority are what you would call "losers", if we go by your criteria. They don't have much money, have sh1t jobs, no future, low regard for themselves, nothing worth a damn.

 

[zekko]

JT7890, I know plenty of 20 and 30 something men who make over $100K and are in good shape. It's not exactly special. However, it's usually not those guys who get laid regularly. Among the few guys I know who get most of the young hotties, the majority are what you would call "losers", if we go by your criteria. They don't have much money, have sh1t jobs, no future, low regard for themselves, nothing worth a damn.

You know what, I have to agree with that. The guys I know who are getting the most ass really don't have much going for them. They're going nowhere, loser types, like you say. They're not even that good looking, or in that good a shape. I don't see them as being "alpha" or anything like that. They're just horndogs. They are highly motivated to have sex with a lot of different girls. That seems to be their prime motivation. I don't even envy or admire them. They're just living through their most basic instincts.

Meanwhile, the guys who are successful with their careers, I think they have bigger fish to fry. Having a lot of different sexual partners isn't a big priority with them. They get their validation elsewhere. Not being focused on women can leave them open to their manipulations in some cases. A lot of guys here would likely dismiss them as being AFC, but I think that's too harsh. It's just that women aren't the biggest things in their lives. With the loser player guys, what else do they have?

 

[synergy1]

I thought you're a member of the Smooth Old Gents club, Uncle Jophil. That's why I didn't ask you.

JT7890, I know plenty of 20 and 30 something men who make over $100K and are in good shape. It's not exactly special. However, it's usually not those guys who get laid regularly. Among the few guys I know who get most of the young hotties, the majority are what you would call "losers", if we go by your criteria. They don't have much money, have sh1t jobs, no future, low regard for themselves, nothing worth a damn.

one of my friends falls into this category , but calling him a loser is harsh. He is struggling financially, and doesn't make wise choices in that regard, but is one of the few people who overburdens himself helping others. However, the dude just has a natural nack for women. Unlike the rest of our social circle, this guy seems to get an extra level of attraction that most of us work for.

What It might boil down to is that the part of their brain that makes them captain smooth leaves them deficient in other areas. Much like the savants that can keep time as well as a Rolex, or memorize an encyclopedia volume and are unable to hold a normal conversation. While obviously not as drastic, I think some of this affect is at play.

Relevant anecdote. Someone I was involved with a while ago is traveling abroad. Without getting specific, she had a run in with a boss that lead to termination. While unfortunate, its funny to see the dynamics of my reaction to hers. hers was that women have no rights, they are wrong , they need to be fixed etc. What was mine? Respect their culture. It isn't ours and who are we to project our belief system onto them. I was more caring than that since she had a rough time of it, and told her she was smart to find greener pastures. It was difficult, but maybe ultimately a good thing to learn how things 'are' not how 'they should be'.

Being able to look so candidly at a situation and not draw an emotional bias against it has me proud inside. Accepting other cultures as being just as 'human' as ours shows a level of maturity and intelligence that I wish more people in the USA had. yes, this is a huge pat on the back, but the theme here is the question of 'do we just blindly believe in something because we are told to?', and my answer is an astounding, loud NO!

 

[jophil28]

What It might boil down to is that the part of their brain that makes them captain smooth leaves them deficient in other areas.

Very good point. I know two guys who are "naturals" at chatting up women and of course they close and date a lot of women, BUT those same guys cannot sustain a relationship, as hard as they try, with women much past the 4-6 weeks point.

They run out of effort, energy and ammo real quick.

They are always " back on the hunt" .

 

[jophil28]

I thought you're a member of the Smooth Old Gents club, Uncle Jophil. That's why I didn't ask you.

ha ha.
SO how is the "grumpy" trainng coming along Jitter ?
Did you piss a woman off in the last 7 days?

 

[JT7890]

JT7890, I know plenty of 20 and 30 something men who make over $100K and are in good shape. It's not exactly special.

If you go by the stats on the percentage of men that fit those qualifications the numbers are very low. So to be 20 something and making over or around $100k is pretty special. I just hit this last year.

However, it's usually not those guys who get laid regularly. Among the few guys I know who get most of the young hotties, the majority are what you would call "losers", if we go by your criteria. They don't have much money, have sh1t jobs, no future, low regard for themselves, nothing worth a damn.

And I think it's because of the social norms. You don't see a guy REALLY walking around with $100k in earning that's still young and attractive every day. Now of course you have wanna-bes, but not true legit ones.

So this is why I disagreed with alot of the "women only go for the top 10% of men" shyt.

Now, while we are on this topic, let's stir this into another direction. Okay, so we agree that for the most part, the guys that mostly screw the vast majority of women ARE losers, so then why does this site preach to be Don Juan?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the self improvement isn't important, but from my experience it has not a damn thing to do with getting women. Basically your:

- Education

- Degrees

- Savings

- Wisdom

None of it has a damn thing to do with women. From my experience, the women look more to the guy's looks and personality then anything, he can be a total loser she will make excuses for the guy all day long.

I touched on this before, but today in 2011 it's like to actually BE THE PRIZE is a liability. We preach all day on here about being the prize but when you are actually THE PRIZE, I mean REALLY THE PRIZE, people start hating on you. People get jealous, because you stand out from the crowd of drop outs, quitters, settlers, and losers.

How do we counter this? Women no longer have the standards they had when my DAD was growing up. See back in the 1950's or so, women had standards, you couldn't just be some loser, today in 2011, it's almost as if they EXPECT you to be a loser and if you are not a loser, WOMEN get jealous of you in a way.

I mean how do you deal with this shyt? I'm a pretty ****y guy and I come from being homeless THREE YEARS AGO (2008) to where I am now, and women don't give a rat's a.ss about that. They don't care about my accomplishments, degrees, none of this shyt. The compliments I get are "JT your eyes are cute" "JT you have a nice smile" "JT you make me laugh" these are so shallow, and ANY loser can have these qualities.

I hate to sound like I'm ranting but the more and more you just LOOK at the state of women today, you just really wonder if they didn't have pvssy would you even bother with them? And it just pisses me off to hear these bytches get on Oprah or on TV talking about "where have all the good men gone?" Or these "educated" bytches getting on TV talking about "there's no educated good brothers out here" when they MOCK the educated brothers and fvck ghetto a.ss "homies" all day.

Urghhh.

 

[Jitterbug]

ha ha.
SO how is the "grumpy" trainng coming along Jitter ?
Did you piss a woman off in the last 7 days?

I have a knack of pissing them off, although most of the time it's just feigned indignation.

Last one I sort of pissed off this week was actually a girl my mate was after but got LJBFed as he's too agreeable. It was about her thinking whether she should pursue a career in helping aborigines. Yeah you know where that would go...

JT7890 & synergy1, personally I don't consider those guys losers, hence I put it as "losers".

JT7890, I'm one of those who make over $100K, young and in shape. Young guys who make decent money have to work their arses off and have not much time to date around, unlike the other guys. I know that since my career took off, I'm a lot less patient with women as I used to be, and I don't do as well. I'm just too damn busy.

Okay, so we agree that for the most part, the guys that mostly screw the vast majority of women ARE losers, so then why does this site preach to be Don Juan?

Because this site, unlike other sites, is not purely about getting laid. It's about living your life as a Free Renaissance Man, a Don Juan. You don't want to submit your life to the whims of fickle women. What you do, what you want to be shouldn't be driven by how many women you can screw. You may not hit the quantity, but you weed out a lot of stupid crazy b1tches that can make your life miserable.

If you want to play the game "He Who Dies With The Most Roots Wins", you are on the wrong site and there are other ones that cater for your needs. Personally, it's exactly the one I want, which is why I stick around here and never go to other PUA sites.

 

[jophil28]

It was about her thinking whether she should pursue a career in helping aborigines. Yeah you know where that would go.

Frankly there is one group of women that I find insufferably annoying above all these annoying groups -
Not the teaching professionals, not the white "caring professionals", not leftist lawyers or smug medical professionals - it is that group of women who threaten to "help" the aboriginals .
Never knew one who actually did it- they just talk about getting "out there to
make a difference".

Pffft!