Two Schools

[zekko]

I notice there are basically two schools of thought here. Either could be true, or false, depending on your looks, your personality, where you live, etc. The two schools are:

1) The man must do everything and be everything. He must approach, he must initiate, he must learn to shrug off rejection, to isolate, to escalate, to build comfort, to build rapport, to lead the interaction, to set up dates. He must have social proof, be fit, be charming, charismatic, and fun. He must never show weakness, be boring, or act AFC. He must hold the frame, be strong and going places in his life.

2) Go the gym and get a hobby, and the girls will come to you.

 

[jhl]

And.....as we've seen recently...

For consequences:

1) It's always your fault

2) It's always the girl's fault.

 

[zekko]

Option 1 comprises all of what option 2 does and then some. If you have social proof, are fit, and are charming, women WILL come to you. I also believe though that in the long term it definitely is up to the man to initiate and lead. It's just natural. The best part about approaching, and the thing that makes it valuable for men, is that you INSTANTLY set the frame. You are the aggressor and the chick needs to react to YOU. It's the way I see it at least.

Well, that's all true.

But what I was trying to say here is that some guys here maintain that they have to do all the work, to approach, to initiate, and to self improve on top of it. Otherwise they're not going to be getting any. In other words, unless they go out and put in the effort, the girls aren't going to be approaching them.

Then there's another set of guys and things come a lot easier for them. They say things like "Get in shape and women will flock to you". Or "Get a hobby and women will flock to you". Kind of like do this one or two things, and bam you're a pimp. I'm sure this approach works for a lot of guys, but there are also a lot of others who have to work at it a lot harder.

 

[AAAgent]

i feel exactly this way!

Honestly, i read all the a Approach Journals J0n24's in particular and you just see guys like that approaching and having all this success. Same with Chosen0ne. They go out and approach make mistakes and learn from them. but it doesn't really fit me well as my energy level with talking to tons of people is low/easily exhaustible (funny thing is i work in sales/account management and i meet people face to face or setup phone calls all day every day).

I don't enjoy socializing but i'm good at it, and very good at it in small groups. Girls usually come to me when i hang out with my social circle and a new group drops in but i don't really get what i'm looking for. I want 9's but most that come into the circle are like 3's - 8's and not all of them are single.

I think a healthy balance of each is probably whats best.

I've always been doing option 2, and it suits me well, but i think if i really want to have what i want, i got to do option 1 as well, a hybrid of both.

I started the DJ bootcamp with overcoming my weakness's just for this.

Day 2 of week 2!

 

[Mike32ct]

Well, that's all true.

But what I was trying to say here is that some guys here maintain that they have to do all the work, to approach, to initiate, and to self improve on top of it. Otherwise they're not going to be getting any. In other words, unless they go out and put in the effort, the girls aren't going to be approaching them.

Then there's another set of guys and things come a lot easier for them. They say things like "Get in shape and women will flock to you". Or "Get a hobby and women will flock to you". Kind of like do this one or two things, and bam you're a pimp. I'm sure this approach works for a lot of guys, but there are also a lot of others who have to work at it a lot harder.

Yeah it depends on the guy. By all means it makes sense to improve yourself FIRST. Then see how it goes. Girls might chase you or they might not.

Unfortunately, there are some guys that women will never chase for some reason. He might have the good job, cool hobbies, and physical fitness and women still don't care either way. A guy like that has to be aggressive and approach because they just won't come to him.

Now if you are the guy that women chase, and you still want to cold approach sometimes for more variety, that's fine.

So overall, we need both schools of thought.

(I mean "you" as in guys in general.)

 

[Findog]

And.....as we've seen recently...

For consequences:

1) It's always your fault

2) It's always the girl's fault.

Usually somewhere between 1 and 2.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Zecko,
I think that hitting the gym and having Ladies flock to you is really great for a fifty year old,because so few of his peers are in good shape,always remembering,that there is an optimum for Time and effort spent versus returns .... Forgive me I am not on the US scene,but it does however seem as though it is pretty hard over there for Young blokes to find a girl at their level...In which case Playing the Game is the only way to go,that doesn't mean C&F isn't useful,no far from it,but if a young Man does go down the Fitness Path,then unless they are really well endowed to start with,they have far too much competition,as in my experience,only a small minority of Women are terribly impressed with a great Body,compared to a much larger minority of Men prepared to work out....If you are tall with a good frame,a nice smile,and are reasonably articulate,you are in like Flynn...The main spin off from working out is improving your standing with your peers,feeling good about yourself and as a result being more confident and relaxed around the Ladies.

 

[Findog]

I think it's important to keep in mind that it's best to start off with School of Thought 2, do your absolute damndest to have a fulfilling and meaningful life that doesn't hinge on having a woman, get in shape, have hobbies, have a purpose and direction, etc.

The point of School of Thought 1 is that women generally still let the guys approach them, even if they are into you. They will wait for you to ask them out, even if they dig you. Spinning plates for them usually means waiting to see which guy will pursue them the most. As a guy, you can have your sh*t together but you still have to actively pursue women to get dates, get laid or get a girlfriend if that's what you want. A man must have an active dating strategy. A hot woman can generally take a passive approach to dating and guys will still approach her, and if one guy that strikes her fancy is too timid or just not that into her, she has other options and can wait for another guy to approach her.

 

[zekko]

I also think part of the problem on this site is that we all have HUGE egos. Why else would we be on here professing how good looking we are and how many chicks we get with?

Well, I've been living with my girlfriend for the last nine years, so I'm not out gaming anyway. And I figure I'm an average looking guy, probably about a 7. The ego thing is an interesting subject though, one that I've been thinking of starting a thread about.

it doesn't really fit me well as my energy level with talking to tons of people is low/easily exhaustible (funny thing is i work in sales/account management and i meet people face to face or setup phone calls all day every day).

As an introvert myself, I can understand that. I talk to a lot of people at work also, and I find that it wears me out socially. By the time I get off, I don't really have much desire to go be with more people. Unfortunately, this seems to have gotten worse as I've gotten older, I want to isolate more.

I think that hitting the gym and having Ladies flock to you is really great for a fifty year old,because so few of his peers are in good shape

Honestly, I've been working out regularly since my 20s, so there hasn't really been a time when I haven't been in pretty good shape. So I've never experienced this "hit the gym and watch the ladies flock" phenomenon.
I have gotten a little too heavy at times, as I've gotten older and my metabolism has slowed down, but I find for me that's mainly a function of my diet.

But I've never been in "elite male stripper" shape really, which is apparently what you have to be to get a lot of attention from it. My genetics aren't that good, I'm not that tall (5'10") and I was way too skinny in high school, I've had to build from a small frame.

The point of School of Thought 1 is that women generally still let the guys approach them, even if they are into you. They will wait for you to ask them out, even if they dig you.

Sometimes a girl will get so smitten with you that she will suggest something. And sometimes girls are just huge AW/flirts, so she will be very overt with you (although she's also being very overt with everybody else). But usually, when they are into you, they will make it very easy for you, even if they don't directly ask you out. Women are very skilled flirters when they want to be.

But generally, yeah, the girls play the passive game. They can afford to. Field a lot of offers and pick the one they like.

We say "go to the gym and get a hobby" because men (newbies, AFCs, oneitis sufferers) place way too much emphasis on women. A man should still adhere to the guidelines in item 1 when attempting seduction. I don't know anyone here who advocates having a good body and a hobby as the only necessities for attracting women.

You should read the general board a little more then, because I see this type of thing a lot.
"Just get a hobby and the girls will flock to you".

 

[Colossus]

That's a bit of an oversimplification zekko but I do think some guys are much more zealous about it than others. And for the record I never read the general board.

I'm really big on personal responsibility so I always try to get the guy to see where he went wrong and what HE can do to change his outcomes. Blaming women will get you nowhere. Denial and lack of accountability are female traits.

Going to the gym and getting a hobby are probably two of the most reliable things you can do to just move forward and be a less needy person. Usually this is standard post-breakup advice, because it works. It gets your mind off the girl and gets you off your as$ and doing something fun and constructive.

Approaching women and honing social game takes two things: aptitude and work. Some guys have way more natural aptitude and excel at this easily. Others, like you and me, find forced interaction with random girls draining and something we have to psych ourselves up for. So we either gravitate towards LTRs or just avoid cold-approach type gaming entirely.

 

[Jitterbug]

This is a false dichotomy and I don't believe men here are either/or when it comes to these things.

AKA a zekko's favourite

#2 is the product, #1 is its sales & marketing. You need both.

Is that clear enough now, zekko? You've asked this same question many times.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

zekko, I've been away for awhile--I may or may not login after tonight--but buddy that is what can be so frustrating about this place, it's a dichotomy, a slanted rut in terms of how we are to approach women, how we are to perceive them. Honestly, these days, I just am myself. I know that is against the status quo here, but I've been putting away my game-playing hat, and just being myself. I'm tired of trying to manipulate or steer the situation, to be "the man". Dude, if I had life figured out I'm sure it'd be easier, but I almost want a woman who knows I don't have it all figured out -- that nobody's got it figured out. Maybe some of these tactics are most effective on dumb or young women who have no real sense of themselves, who are mostly filled with whatever anyone, their parents, teachers, boyfriends, etc expect of them.

Would a truly independent smart thinking woman succumb to some of this stuff? I don't want to be my lady's alpha. I want to be her supporter, her lover, her place of kindness and encouragement.

Maybe the real trick is finding who you are as a person, what you want in a relationship and driving towards that. If the complex things in Life could be answered on internet forums, it would alleviate a big section of the human mind that struggles with these understandings. Unfortunately, there are some mysteries to life as old as the ages. Finding what woman works for you, what you want, might be something so subjective a forum like this could never gratify.

And love? Well, love seems to present itself on its own. I don't know what tactics there are to attract this beyond being a good person and trying to build the best life that you know how.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

PS, it doesn't take a genius to see there are faults in the SS-philosophy. Those of you whom are successful at planting flags have found the appropriate ways of doing things. But still many are not happy and feel empty, wondering when they will find love. The issue is, the SS-philosophy in some ways can squelch love because it is not founded on love but self-gratifying actualization.

There are many ways to be, there is no absolute answers, anyone who touts the absolute answer is probably truly wrong. I have lost interest in what "many women" think of me, and in the end, if we are thinking that way, are we truly living for ourselves anyways?

I think most people here desire companionship and care. Most here have been truly hurt. I don't know why love and romance can be so harsh. I don't know why we sometimes hurt those we love the very most. I do know sometimes this place can 'over-fill' you with so much information you'll stop acting like yourself...you'll fall into whatever the expectations are of the dialogues here...and the more you do this the further you step from your own learning experiences...

I have realized most things I have to learn the hard-way. Women is one of them. Eventually, perhaps, I'll catch on, naturally.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

Lastly--being attractive of course will help. If you're overweight and down on yourself, getting in shape could be the confidence boost you really need. Women recognize this and it takes hard work to change and to get strong. This is valuable. I don't think all women just melt over muscles. But there is no doubt a man working hard and whom takes care of his body will be an asset. But this doesn't mean anything really, because your body has nothing to do wtih all of the complex psychological, mental, emotional relationships you'll have with that woman--and having big biceps only really means so much. I have big biceps. This helps sometimes. I'm not truly a player. I don't pursue really as I should. I don't want the hollow, shallow, meaningless. I want the quality. I must learn to be patient.

I have been a fat man also. Chicks don't like that. But getting cut doesn't always just solve the problem. Many attractive men struggle to find meaningful relationships. Perhaps in some ways, there are deeper reasons for this...

 

[Jitterbug]

Money doesn't buy you happiness, but having lots of money surely makes the pursuit of happiness a lot more enjoyable!

Same with having a good physique and women.

But getting cut doesn't always just solve the problem. Many attractive men struggle to find meaningful relationships.

What problem?

Maybe one day those attractive men will wake up and realise they don't need to struggle to find a meaningful relationship with women, because they start to question who was it that put it into their heads that they need a meaningful relationship with women in the first place.

And that's when they find life awesome and live happily ever after.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

Being alone all of the time gets old after awhile man...everyone wishes for companionship...to be truly happy with nobody and nothing is maybe a bit unrealistic...most humans greatest levels of happiness come from people, not objects, family, friends, close human shared experiences...in fact likely these are the things people value the most...

 

[Buddha_Mind]

Jitterbug--I wish I had your mentality man. I am in shape. I wish to share in things, have a sense of closeness beyond just myself...I have been a lone wolf a long time..sleep solo..work solo...live solo..sleep under the stars...not a bad life...but I do know, at least for myself, there is emptiness within, a sort of sickness that can result from habitual-loneliness...I wish I had the strength you are describing..but sometimes it seems a bit of closeness, even if partial and temporary would be a sweet medicine. A man can get worn thin after awhile...sometimes we need things to rejuvenate or remind us what things are worth.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

I may just be destined to be a terrible PUA and an expert AFC. One-itis, I battle all the time, keeps popping its head up. In some ways I want one-itis...I want to love that woman so badly and passionately that I would defend and protect her as much as possible...and maybe that alone is the very problem...I desire that electricity...

 

[Jitterbug]

Jitterbug--I wish I had your mentality man. I am in shape. I wish to share in things, have a sense of closeness beyond just myself...I have been a lone wolf a long time..sleep solo..work solo...live solo..sleep under the stars...not a bad life...but I do know, at least for myself, there is emptiness within, a sort of sickness that can result from habitual-loneliness...I wish I had the strength you are describing..but sometimes it seems a bit of closeness, even if partial and temporary would be a sweet medicine. A man can get worn thin after awhile...sometimes we need things to rejuvenate or remind us what things are worth.

You can share and be close to people, they don't have to be the woman you're sleeping with.

I didn't have this mentality from birth, although I'm naturally very good at self-amusement so it is easier for me. When I was 27, I was thinking the exact same things I quoted from you. It was only when I put my emotions aside, broke them all down and looked at them rationally that I realised it's just a form of oneitis.

After I've got that "meaningful relationship with one woman" out of my head, I now have much better and more meaningful relationships with other people in my life. I also enjoy women a lot more, because I place no heavy expectation on them. A lot of what you are "reserving" for that "one special woman" can be shared and experienced with others - not just women but your best friend, father, mentor etc. even female friends. You are closing yourself off to many people unwittingly, while you chase the fantasy of The One (although you have a milder infection of this, due to your exposure to this site so far). The more you close off, the stronger Oneitis gets. You don't want it and you don't need it. There are more ways to feel alive than to be a white knight for a woman.

 

[zekko]

I've had casual and meaningful relationships with women, and for me at least, the meaningful relationships were far more satisfying. That's why they're meaningful, duh! It's like comparing your best friend with someone you go play racquetball with on occasion.

Having said that, everybody's different and has different personalities so I could see that not everyone will think the same about that. I agree you shouldn't feel like you NEED to be in a meaningful relationship. But I do think that once you've been in a really good LTR, it's hard to be satisfied without one.

By the way, the "Get a hobby and women will come to you" idea is very similar to the old expression "Quit looking and then you'll find a girl". Not totally the same, but similar.