To all the anti-marriage/women are evil crew

[Slickster]

Everyone around here seems to agree that the vast majority of men out there don't have a clue when it comes to women. Hell that is why this website even exists!! So if we agree that the majority of married men are chumps then the majority of the marriages are going to eventually fail. No big surprise there. Right? So why are we so down on marriage?

Why is it that whenever an AFC who is trying really hard to learn starts a thread about how he can't seem to get a number, or a date, or get laid we all jump on him about what he did wrong and how he needs to change his way of thinking towards women.

However when a bitter divorced guy beaks off about his failed relationship and how women suck and marriage is evil he gets applauded?? Kind of ironic huh?. Obviously there's a big chance that this guy entered his failed marriage without the tools to make it work in the first place!!!

I know tons of men unhappy in their marriages and I also know others who are very happy. There ARE more unhappy than happy. Just like there are so many chumps and so few real DJ's.

The ones who are unhappy seem to go thru life completely oblivious. Their wife wears the pants and that's just the way it is. They are like poor beaten dogs too afraid to stand up for themselves. That is the root of the problem. Then they get separated or divorced and suddenly find some balls (enlightenment) and blame it all on women and marriage. They go around telling everybody about it like they are so much the wiser. It is kind of embarrassing if you ask me.

What bugs me is that these men never look at the root of the problem and realize that they gave up their power long before they got married. It is no different than the chump who can't get a date because he's putting women on a pedestal and supplicating. These suckers allowed their wives to take the lead and become the boss long ago. Of course your marriage failed!!

It's interesting that someone brought up the Mennonites in a recent discussion on the same topic. What I know about the Mennonites is that the men and women take on more traditional roles in the marriage. Funny how it seems to work for them. Kind of almost natural wouldn't you say?

I mean no offence to any of the divorced guys out there who have been through extremely rough times. I feel for you all and know from my friends experiences that is has been hell on them.

I just think it's time that this website made a change in attitude. This place started out as a place to talk about seduction and the love of women. Now it has degraded into a woman hating, anti-marriage forum. If you really think women are so evil then why the hell are you here?

Enough of the bitterness. Enough of the hate. Time to start standing up for yourself as a man. Admitting that the reason your marriage failed is half your fault too. Maybe it's time to start new relationships with new boundaries and strength. Maybe it's time to start judging women and marriage from a new perspective. Not as chumps but as true men. Then and only then can we accurately judge.

If not our penis's might suck inside our bodies and become vaginas from all this whining!!!

 

[Jitterbug]

Why do you group those two separate issues?

I love women but am fiercely anti-marriage. Brain exploded yet?

Plus, it's not like you've been married for decades. You only got married for what, a year or so? Many of your favourite bitter divorced guys were happily married for longer at the start. Are you sure you won't eventually be one of them?

Looking at the stats, the laws, society, etc... it's reasonable to say that marriage in Western society is a very risky investment for a man with little rewards. Even if you're some superstar DJ with great power over your wife, you can still get fvcked. The law (divorced lawyers, family court) doesn't care about your awesome DJness. Hey, I bet you're not more awesome than Donald Trump and even that guy gets reamed by divorce.

Good luck with your marriage, but don't get all feminist and tell other guys that they're just being "bitter" with women.

 

[Slickster]

Hey I'm not trying to come off as some huge marriage proponent. I just want people to take a better view.

I'm just sick of hearing about guys whining about their marriage troubles and their wives. I hear it every single day from the guys I work with and this site is teeming with these dudes.

Yes I've only been married for a short while and my marriage isn't at all like the ones my friends at work complain about every day. They keep telling me to "Just wait".

MY POINT IS THAT I'M NEVER GOING TO LET IT GET THERE.

If things go sour or beyond my control then I will eject. If my wife wants to leave and take all my sh!t then go ahead. I'm not going to live like a beaten dog in fear of losing my money!!

I think that's anything but feminist.

 

[Jitterbug]

MY POINT IS THAT I'M NEVER GOING TO LET IT GET THERE.

If things go sour or beyond my control then I will eject. If my wife wants to leave and take all my sh!t then go ahead. I'm not going to live like a beaten dog in fear of losing my money!!

I think that's anything but feminist.

It's easy to say when it's just material possessions.

What if children are involved? Are you Okay with her taking the kids? And that's actually a pretty average scenario. There are better horror stories, but I'm sure you've read them.

 

[Poonani Maker]

I'm afraid that a future wife might off me to get my life insurance.

 

[iqqi]

There are better horror stories, but I'm sure you've read them.

Why are you so focused on the horror stories?

I think one point Slick is making here, is the tendency to look at the darker side of everything, and not just look, but ruminate and stew and obsess to the point of becoming part of the illness.

I am sure Slick has read the horror stories, but he seems more focused on the happier ending stories. Which is pretty good for one's mentality, in my opinion.

There is something to be said for someone who focuses on all that's negative. And something else to be said for someone who looks to the bright side of things. I am sure you can come up with some jokes for that.

 

[Dust 2 Dust]

I'm not a fan of marriage either, at least not to american women. If your looking for marital bliss in the USA then you were born in the wrong generation. The average american female has been tainted by feminism which has turned them into sex objects and worker drones. Traditional foreign women from 3rd world countries untouched by feminist propoganda make the best wives.

 

[Zunder]

Hey Slickster - why can't we b!tch and whiine about women, let off a bit of steam, slap each others backs now and then too?

You don't think women don't do this about men, and tenfold at that.?!

Personally, I don't hate women at all. I just have this irrestible urge to fvck them, and at times the road to fvcking them has lead me down some beta paths that ended up in me not fvcking them, or not having the relationship from them that I should have had - due to me slipping into niceguyitis syndrome.

Thats why I am here. I can put up with a bit of whining.

Change the station if you don't like the music.

 

[davewe]

A couple of comments in random order. And I'll try not to whine

1. Most guys check out this and similar forums for assistance in dating, navigating the female gender, and getting more sex, not for how to have a successful marriage, let alone how to fix a bad one. So on one hand we're trying to advise guys about how to get more tail, and on the other hand we're trying to be - what - Dr. Phil?

2. If 90% of men out there are chumps, then the last thing I wanna do is encourage those men to run out and get married. Since we agree that most men, most good men, are chumps, and since most of us also agree that the legal and societal norms are stacked against the husband, then again why promote marriage.

3. Many of the anti-marriage comments occur because the above referenced chumps develop a little game, find a girl, then start talking about moving in or getting married. Those chumps need to hear and hear loud and clear what they may be in for (at least 50% of the time).

4. While it's true that some marriages fail because the chump allowed his wife to wear the pants, there are a vast number of other reasons. You can't just blame the husband or the wife, you have to look at the institution and the society that no longer supports that institution.

5. Personally I believe in marriage. My parents were happily married and we 3 kids longed to emulate their relationship. All there of us are currently divorced.

6. You can't make every man become an Alpha male. Are we saying that only the Alpha who controls the relationship is capable of a successful marriage? It's impossible. No wonder the divorce rate is high.

Like many other middle aged guys, I came to this forum because after years of marriage I am looking for a new model for my life; a model not based on one person or on til death do us part. I have no desire to denigrate those married guys who have successfully traversed the marital labyrynth, but I can't be silent when I see younger guys making the same mistakes I made in my 30s.

Everyone around here seems to agree that the vast majority of men out there don't have a clue when it comes to women. Hell that is why this website even exists!! So if we agree that the majority of married men are chumps then the majority of the marriages are going to eventually fail. No big surprise there. Right? So why are we so down on marriage?

Why is it that whenever an AFC who is trying really hard to learn starts a thread about how he can't seem to get a number, or a date, or get laid we all jump on him about what he did wrong and how he needs to change his way of thinking towards women.

However when a bitter divorced guy beaks off about his failed relationship and how women suck and marriage is evil he gets applauded?? Kind of ironic huh?. Obviously there's a big chance that this guy entered his failed marriage without the tools to make it work in the first place!!!

I know tons of men unhappy in their marriages and I also know others who are very happy. There ARE more unhappy than happy. Just like there are so many chumps and so few real DJ's.

The ones who are unhappy seem to go thru life completely oblivious. Their wife wears the pants and that's just the way it is. They are like poor beaten dogs too afraid to stand up for themselves. That is the root of the problem. Then they get separated or divorced and suddenly find some balls (enlightenment) and blame it all on women and marriage. They go around telling everybody about it like they are so much the wiser. It is kind of embarrassing if you ask me.

What bugs me is that these men never look at the root of the problem and realize that they gave up their power long before they got married. It is no different than the chump who can't get a date because he's putting women on a pedestal and supplicating. These suckers allowed their wives to take the lead and become the boss long ago. Of course your marriage failed!!

It's interesting that someone brought up the Mennonites in a recent discussion on the same topic. What I know about the Mennonites is that the men and women take on more traditional roles in the marriage. Funny how it seems to work for them. Kind of almost natural wouldn't you say?

I mean no offence to any of the divorced guys out there who have been through extremely rough times. I feel for you all and know from my friends experiences that is has been hell on them.

I just think it's time that this website made a change in attitude. This place started out as a place to talk about seduction and the love of women. Now it has degraded into a woman hating, anti-marriage forum. If you really think women are so evil then why the hell are you here?

Enough of the bitterness. Enough of the hate. Time to start standing up for yourself as a man. Admitting that the reason your marriage failed is half your fault too. Maybe it's time to start new relationships with new boundaries and strength. Maybe it's time to start judging women and marriage from a new perspective. Not as chumps but as true men. Then and only then can we accurately judge.

If not our penis's might suck inside our bodies and become vaginas from all this whining!!!

 

[Trader]

I just think it's time that this website made a change in attitude. This place started out as a place to talk about seduction and the love of women. Now it has degraded into a woman hating, anti-marriage forum. If you really think women are so evil then why the hell are you here?

First off, I am assuming that we are talking about the Mature Man's forum specifically. It makes no sense to complain about the Don Juan Discussion, since that that forum is comprised of the younger people whose main goal, by in large is to get sex.

Secondly, if you read carefully, the main theme is not that women are inherently evil, but it is that women are *amoral*. In other words, they do not have a strong internal sense of right or wrong, so they are very much impacted by the outer environment and society. Which means that as a man, you damn better well control the frame, otherwise she is going to be negatively influenced by others. You just can't rely on girls to do the right thing on their own accord. That's not hating on women, it's just being realistic.

Lastly, if you read posts in the Mature Man's forum carefully, by in large, the main theme when it comes to marriage is not 'anti-marriage' but that of caution and practicality.

Girls are extremely *practical* when it comes to marriage. They will always consider your financial background and your future earning potential. I'm not saying girls will always marry for money. Some girls will marry a guy just because they like him, BUT it will be because his positive factors outweighed the downer of him not having lots of money. Rest assured, when it comes to marriage, girls are 100% practical, girls do not go goo goo ga ga - men are the ones that do that when they fall in love.

So the main theme here is *caution.* Should not men be as practical and cautious with marriage as women? Why should men be *blinded* by love and jump into marriage? All people are saying is, 'Hey consider ALL the factors when it comes to marriage.'

And like Jitterbug was alluding to, it's tempting for us guys to say: 'Hey we got game, so our marriage is almost a guaranteed success.' But that's just arrogance.

One major factor going against guys is the biased divorce laws in western countries. A girl can just walk away at the drop of the hat with 50% of your assets. Sure you may be awesome at controlling the frame, but the risk of the marriage failing is still high.

One way to somewhat compensate for this is to be very very picky when it comes to the girl you marry. Even if you do control the frame, the odds are still against you so it is imperative that you be picky and choose a girl of high character who can make the marriage work. And even then, marriage is still a gamble.

You may be mistaking this 'pickness' that we have for girls as 'hatred' towards girls.

 

[Hooligan Harry]

50% divorce rate and climbing. How many of the 50% that are married are actually happy though?

Fact is you have been married for a short time. **** happens and people change. Your wife could change. You could change. Your circumstances could change which places stress on the marriage. When that happens, someone becomes unhappy and that makes both people unhappy. There are some things you wont have control over. That not only will have an impact on your pocket, but the emotional turmoil it can cause, especially if kids are involved, is severe.

You see this view as resentful and bitter. Its far from it. Its a rational approach to a high risk agreement. At the end of the day, you need to be very cautious when you marry because it is high risk. Its high risk with moderate reward at the end of the day and those rewards are often available outside of marriage without the risk!

Good on you for your successful marriage so far. I hope the bliss lasts forever. If it does, I can assure you, you will be in the minority. I would bet my left nut that 80% of people of people who do marry are fvcking miserable

 

[STR8UP]

Ego investments require rationalization.

That's all this thread is- a rationalization for your decision to get married despite the overwhelming evidence that it is a RAW deal for the majority of men.

Of course, this doesn't apply to you. That's why you made this thread. To have all of the other guys who "believe in" marriage defend your choice.

A guy I know was married for 20 years before his wife cleaned out their bank account and moved 1000 miles away while he was at work one day.

Are you one of the exceptions to the rule?

Only time will tell.

 

[Ballie]

Its easy to shame other guys after a mere year being married. I was married for over 20 years - the last 10 were hell. I didn't want to leave my young kids with a nutcase - so ja, I became an AFC just to keep the peace. SHE did not take no for an answer. Anyway it crashed 3 years ago when I could not take it any more and lost my kids, house etc.

I came to this site searching for answers and found them - she is definitely BPD. Just as well she left me as I am still young enough to find another woman or more.

I have regained my youthfull frame, which I suppressed all these years and am now very happy. Will I get married again? No, I am too old now - I believe it's only to have kids. But I am in a LTR which gives me all the benefits - so why should I? But, I wish I had met someone like her 30 years ago.

 

[Slickster]

Hey guys good discussion. Lots of good points being made.

Doesn't anyone see the irony though?

Everyday there is a new guy showing up at sosuave who experiences a revelation. A great big slap in the face that he's spent his whole life with his head in the sand. He wakes up and sees the error of his ways. Rejoice! He sets off to acquire the tools that will make him more successful with women in the future. Yet when he looks back at his failed relationship or marriage he blames the woman or the institution of marriage itself. Rarely do we see a guy admit that he wasn't prepared to be in that position of marriage to begin with.

It's kind of like a guy who has never driven before flunking his drivers test and then blaming the car, or the instructor, or the driving test itself.

If marriage is truly a test or challenge and you go into it unprepared how can you knock it after you fail?

How come we always see so many "marriage is evil and women suck" posts but not so many "Yeah my ex wife wore the pants and it cost me my marriage" posts? Why can't men just admit that they were at least half of the problem?

People quote stats saying 50% of marriages fail. Well of course. If 90% of the people getting married aren't making good decisions choosing their spouse then why wouldn't they fail? How many times have you seen two people get hitched and thought to yourself "Oooo that's not gonna work"?

I'm not trying to be Dr. Phil here or come off as some sort of marriage expert. So far my marriage has been good and I'm feeling extremely lucky and thankful for that. I have two friends right now who are both going thru ugly divorces with kids and there's lots of money issues too. It's brutal.

When I listen to these guys talk about their situations I know that deep down they know. They know that she wasn't the right woman, or he acted like a pvssy and let her rule the marriage, and those are the real reasons it failed. Yet they still love to sit around and bash their exes and marriage in general.

I feel like telling these guys that "Yes women suck. Yes marriage sucks. But guess what, you suck too my friend!" You suck because you let it all go down this way. You let her become the alpha of the relationship while you took the woman's role of the beta and now you are going to sit and whine about that forever??? Maybe men truly are becoming too feminine.

Wouldn't a man stop wallowing in the mud, admit his mistakes and drag himself out? Wouldn't he learn and improve and try to do better next time?

Once again all good discussion and I know this is a sensitive subject for some. I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just trying to see the big picture.






______________________________________________________________

Ego investments require rationalization.

That's all this thread is- a rationalization for your decision to get married despite the overwhelming evidence that it is a RAW deal for the majority of men.

Of course, this doesn't apply to you. That's why you made this thread. To have all of the other guys who "believe in" marriage defend your choice.

STR8UP what is up? Too many assumptions from you. I see that a lot in too many of your posts these days. I haven't been around here much over the past couple years but I remember you differently. What happened? Is it true that once you reach the 6000 post mark you become omnipotent?

 

[zekko]

Girls are extremely *practical* when it comes to marriage. They will always consider your financial background and your future earning potential. I'm not saying girls will always marry for money. Some girls will marry a guy just because they like him, BUT it will be because his positive factors outweighed the downer of him not having lots of money. Rest assured, when it comes to marriage, girls are 100% practical, girls do not go goo goo ga ga - men are the ones that do that when they fall in love.

What you're implying is that when it comes to marriage, women are LOGICAL and men are EMOTIONAL. I don't think I can really agree with that. I've visited a few women's dating message boards, and it sounds like a lot of women get all gaga over the guys they marry.

What the difference is, IMO, is that the "practical" aspects are built right into women's attraction buttons. Women will be naturally attracted to guys who are successful and make good money.

 

[trent81]

I agree with the OP completely. Why do so many hate women? Of course its difficult to get chicks, it's supposed to be. It's difficult to have marriages work in America. But so many times I see this in failed marriages;
The man relaxes, gets fat, lazy, and thinks he's got her for LIFE.
The man wants two incomes, makes her work, so he can buy his toys. Then wonders why she fucvked his coworker? NEVER let her work if you can afford it.
The man neglects wife, wife cheats.
The man becomes predictable, wife gets bored, hence, she cheats.
NOW, there are some evil fuvkin women out there that will squeeze men and I agree that it's not their faults. But I think failed marriages are 70/30 man's fault. You need to be strong, and she has to know that you will beat her senseless if she acts up. You are willing to risk jail time if she flirts with other men. You will let her go if she crosses a certain line. No questions asked. You have to have both eyes open. AND FINALLY;

NEVER MARRY AN AMERICAN WOMAN. ARE YOU FUVKING NUTS?

 

[trent81]

I don't think I have ever read so much on hate of women/marriage

Lot's of people here are bitter at women. They also are anti marriage. I believe marriage is healthy for a man. If one KNOWS how to be a husband and a good father, he can add many years to his life. I love women, but hate their silly games. I am still single, but never once did I think that women were evil or manipulative. I see them as creatures that are just messed up in the head. Alot of men say women don't know what they want. Yes they do; they want good looks, money, fame, cocaine, fun, whatever that gets their emotions going. I also think that a failed marriage is the man's fault seventy percent of the time. You want something feminine? Why do you let her work? You come on these boards wondering where she met her new love. Guess what dumb fuvk, she met him at work! She shouldn't work if you are a man who makes a decent living. Why is she out with the girls till 2 am? She's a married woman, her place is with you, she comes home when the sun goes down. So do you. Why do you wonder where she met the other guy? It was you that allowed her to have girls night out twice a month. Why do you not get upset when she uses the internet more than the guys who play warcraft? Then you wonder "where did she meet the other guy?". In your living room, on the chatroom, infront of your nose, dumb fuvk. Why do you get lazy and fat and boring and she has to stay in shape and blow you and have sex with you even though you have no sex appeal? Why should she stay with you if you refuse to become a better person? Now, don't get me wrong. In some cases, especially when a man hits misfortune, a woman should be by his side. But a woman should also know that she will get a beating that could put her in a coma if she does something to cross her husband. Why should she respect you if she doesn't fear you? Do you know why women don't fuvk around in the Middle East? Because they know they would be killed if they did. A mother, a wife, does not flirt or even look at other guys. Why do so many guys hate marriages? I actually want children to raise, I want a good wife. So many here don't want to get married. Are you going to be old and lonely? Gonna be "gaming" at fifty five? This of course, doesn't mean you can't have something on the side while you're married. You are the man, there is no such thing as equal rights. You should always have more options. You will answer to the man upstairs when the time comes. Why should it be not equal? Trust me, a woman always love's something she cannot have or is afraid of losing. Go watch some non Western shows or something, something that shows you how non-American based marriages work. Stop hatin women. It's not their fault that you can't be a strong husband. And yes, sometimes the man is the victim, but most of the time, it's his fault.

 

[jonwon]

Everyone around here seems to agree that the vast majority of men out there don't have a clue when it comes to women. Hell that is why this website even exists!! So if we agree that the majority of married men are chumps then the majority of the marriages are going to eventually fail. No big surprise there. Right? So why are we so down on marriage?

Why is it that whenever an AFC who is trying really hard to learn starts a thread about how he can't seem to get a number, or a date, or get laid we all jump on him about what he did wrong and how he needs to change his way of thinking towards women.

However when a bitter divorced guy beaks off about his failed relationship and how women suck and marriage is evil he gets applauded?? Kind of ironic huh?. Obviously there's a big chance that this guy entered his failed marriage without the tools to make it work in the first place!!!

I know tons of men unhappy in their marriages and I also know others who are very happy. There ARE more unhappy than happy. Just like there are so many chumps and so few real DJ's.

The ones who are unhappy seem to go thru life completely oblivious. Their wife wears the pants and that's just the way it is. They are like poor beaten dogs too afraid to stand up for themselves. That is the root of the problem. Then they get separated or divorced and suddenly find some balls (enlightenment) and blame it all on women and marriage. They go around telling everybody about it like they are so much the wiser. It is kind of embarrassing if you ask me.

What bugs me is that these men never look at the root of the problem and realize that they gave up their power long before they got married. It is no different than the chump who can't get a date because he's putting women on a pedestal and supplicating. These suckers allowed their wives to take the lead and become the boss long ago. Of course your marriage failed!!

It's interesting that someone brought up the Mennonites in a recent discussion on the same topic. What I know about the Mennonites is that the men and women take on more traditional roles in the marriage. Funny how it seems to work for them. Kind of almost natural wouldn't you say?

I mean no offence to any of the divorced guys out there who have been through extremely rough times. I feel for you all and know from my friends experiences that is has been hell on them.

I just think it's time that this website made a change in attitude. This place started out as a place to talk about seduction and the love of women. Now it has degraded into a woman hating, anti-marriage forum. If you really think women are so evil then why the hell are you here?

Enough of the bitterness. Enough of the hate. Time to start standing up for yourself as a man. Admitting that the reason your marriage failed is half your fault too. Maybe it's time to start new relationships with new boundaries and strength. Maybe it's time to start judging women and marriage from a new perspective. Not as chumps but as true men. Then and only then can we accurately judge.

If not our penis's might suck inside our bodies and become vaginas from all this whining!!!

I just think it's time that this website made a change in attitude. This place started out as a place to talk about seduction and the love of women. Now it has degraded into a woman hating, anti-marriage forum. If you really think women are so evil then why the hell are you here?

Not sure what you mean here, how is this different to offering a guy who has just come out of a messy divorce the response of 'welcome to freedom' or such like.

Marriage is a silly thing to do - Nothing to do with women, it's the laws that screw it up - laws the benifit women. So is that hating women to know about these things, to know about the high divorce rates, coupled with relationships that are unhappy or married couples living in seperation?

It is one thing to be educated, it is then another thing to label that education has bitter and women hating.

Alot of what goes on here and SS and other places is simply tearing down the ***** worship walls that most men have, hence the difference between a guy from divorce and a guy who wont marry is - education on the subject.

The divorced guy probably went in blind - the none commited marriage guy, has probably done research.

Hence the respose to the guy who should know better is - you messed up, which is perfectly in context.

The response to a guy fresh from marriage - is constructive advice because he probably did not know any better.

Men are responsible, only because most men are oblivious to what women can do - Women are just has human as men and susceptable to the same messed up stuff - it's just alot of men, seem to think women are on a higher moral plane - then they wonder why, when they act in a certain manner they get burned -

Yes it makes men bitter, but women say the exact same things too -

Actually on the scale of things, I think women are far more vocal about the gender divide - hence women hate has you describe it, is far less commen then man hate - dam women are even vocal in public how they feel about men, and you hardly hear about men being the same way - more or less its private, on forums and not a constant thing no matter the venue.

I've yet to see a female negative comment on my face book - but I see daily man hating comments from many different girls -

So in the shape of things, I think girls are a dam sight worse tbh about it.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Once again, from the top,..

One of the surest indicators of an AFC mindset is the automatic presumption that anything remotely critical a man would say about women, or the feminine, is by default, equated with misogyny. All a man need do is open his mouth, in the most objective way he can muster, about anything critical of the feminine and he's instantly suspect of sour grapes. He must've been burned, or is bitter and on the verge of desperation just for even a passing mention of some critical observation.

What an amazingly potent social convention that is - when a man will censor himself because of it on his own. The most successful social conventions are ones in which the subject willingly sublimates his own interests, discourages questioning it, and predisposes that person to encourage others to participate in it. This is what you're doing here. AFCs are crabs in a barrel. As soon as one climbs up to the top to escape, 10 more clamber over him to pull him back in.

I understand what your interpretation is, all I'm asking you to do is ask yourself why you'd think they were "bitter"? This is a feminine social convention that's in the same vein as shame. Any guy that has a point about the feminine, no matter how valid, can always have his argument poisoned because he's a guy and most guys are frustrated that they aren't getting laid and this is his petty way of venting.

When men can be convinced to participate in women's social conventions half their work is done for them.

I've had a fantastic marriage for over 13 years now, but I'm not going to sugar coat the facts that marriage involves life changing sacrifices for men that no woman will ever fully understand or appreciate. I'm not anti-marriage. I'm anti- uninformed, pollyanna, shoulda saw it coming, ONEitis fueled, shame induced, bound for bankruptcy, scarred my children for life, marriage.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Here's the truth about good marriages.

A woman loves you when she takes you for granted. That sounds odd I know, but it's when she's not fawning all over you and you're in your 10th year of marriage and it's just part of everyday conversation. "OK, love you, bye" is at the end of every phone call. You're not thinking about it, because you don't need to. If you're asking the question "how do you know when she loves you?" You're not in it. It's when that familiarity and regular comfort is removed that she can appreciate it. Once the commonness of love is established women will only rarely express it overtly - in fact the expression will be what's expected of you - so you have to look for it covertly.

All the flowery crap you read in your Hallmark card on Valentines Day or your Anniversary was written by someone else. And while it's nice to have these gestures of appreciation occasionally, it's more important to see the forest for the trees. It's not individual acts of affection or appreciation so much as it is the whole of what you both do on a regular day-to-day basis. It's what you and she are all about after your three hundredth bowl of oatmeal together on a Saturday morning and your kids are fighting for control of the TV remote while you're sitting across the breakfast table discussing which bills need to be paid first this month and how bad the lawn needs mowing that defines love and marriage.

This is what marriage is; not necessarily boring per se (although it certainly can be more often than not), but ordinary. It's normal, common, or becomes so. That's the real test of marriage that no one who hasn't experienced it can really relate in any meaningful sense. The happy Oprah-ized idea is that you have to "keep it fresh", but even after a night of freshening it up and the Wal-Mart lingerie is in the clothes hamper, and you pick up the kids from spending the night at her sisters house the morning after, you go back to the day-to-day marriage you've always had.

This is the sh!t no one tells you about when you're be sold on the Marriage Goal - the "now what?" that comes directly after you've found the ONE you've been looking for, or "did the right thing" with and married because she suddenly rediscovered religion AFTER you'd had marathon sex with her for 3 months straight and wouldn't abort the pregnancy.