To all the anti-marriage/women are evil crew

[The Message Boy]

Hooligan Harry says,

No where have I said that they (women) should not be allowed equal employment opportunity.

Like hell, matter of fact you REPEATED IT, read:

Hooligan Harry says,

Men have never been equal to women and women have never been equal to men.

Hooligan Harry says,

Women simply cannot compete in business.

Which is it Harry? Should women have equal opportunity or not?

And when it comes to business women can't compete with men at all? Ha, so Oprah, Martha Stewart, J.K. Rowling and a whole host of OTHER women in big businesses and small businesses that have been in operations for YEARS while some of their male competitors have went out of business and failed, are just EXCEPTIONS to the rule? Those MILLIONS of women are EXCEPTIONS to the rule???

Do men have more quantity of success in numbers? YES!

But that doesn't mean a woman shouldn't be ALLOWED to do the same thing if she has the ability, just because MEN are doing it in more quantity.

Hooligan Harry says,

Here are some points to consider. Challenge these facts I will present to you:

I'll put my comments under each in BOLD.

* Single mothers raise more delinquents

TRUE but MAJORITY of those numbers are coming from mothers in more poverish areas. Those areas (poverty based areas) will produce delinquents REGARDLESS because the people there are living in poverty.


* Divorce rate is currently 50%, of which women file for 70%

I don't know the actual percentages on that officially, I would think it's more 50/50. So women shouldn't have the option to file for divorce but men should? Oh yes, because women are not equal to men right lol.

* Fathers have fewer rights to their children

That's debateable. Pull up statistics of the court cases and cases over child custody. I know a number of girls that LOST their children to their fathers once they broke up because the judge deemed the Father more "fit" to take care of the children. Again, I would say it's split right down the middle.


* 20% of fathers do not know that the children they raise are not theirs

You just made up a random number. But if you are playing the Father to a child and you are NOT 100% sure the child is yours, who's fault is that?



* More women are educated in universities than men (yet men dominate every aspect of business, science and the arts)

Again, a random statement and this is debateable. From my experience, this is not true as far as women being more academically educated then men. This sounds like crap you read on these forums. Also just taking YOUR statement it wouldn't MAKE SENSE, how in the hell can men dominate science if women are more academically educated?? LMAO.

* Men get reduced pensions

PROVE IT.


* Women get more parental leave

Probably so because the laws have been changed to give them time to bare children. What's the big deal?

* Skewed sexual harassment laws which favour women

Women are more likely to be in situations where some AFC THEY ARE NOT ATTRACTED TO is passing sexual proposions towards them. YOU might not like that, but that's true. But on the bright side, if I'm getting sexually harassed by a woman I don't like I have the same right as women to report it.


* Reproductive rights? Men often have to support children they dont want while they have no right to force a woman to carry a child through to birth.

IF you are supporting children that are NOT YOURS, that's YOUR damn fault.

* Men get longer jail sentences for similar crimes

PROVE IT.

* Mens health receives reduced funding from government

BULL****T!!!



* More men commit suicide. 80% of suicides are men

That has NOTHING to do with women.


* Almost 50% of rape allegations are false

TRUE. What that has to do with the debate I have no idea. The very SMALL percentage of women that actually cry "rape" makes this statement totally non-existent.

* 40%-50% of domestic violence cases are committed by women

TRUE, it's 50/50. Okay? What??

Hooligan Harry says,

If you are going to find fault with masculinity and you believe that feminism "is all about equality", lets have a rational debate on gender here.

Stop putting words in my mouth, I NEVER said anything about masculinity. NEVER. I believe women should have equal opportunity and IF they can do a job as well or better than a man, they should be allowed to, period. YOU continue to debate that's not so, and that women svck and can't be as successful as men and "whine" "whine" "whine" on how feminism is taking over all the laws and all this other bull**** and "whine" "whine" "whine" on how American women svck and foreign women are so much better, and some more "whine" on how women should stay in traditional feminine roles and "whine" on this or that.

You "whine" like ***** lol.

 

[Hooligan Harry]

You are retarded and this is pointless. You disqualify without proving, you cannot differentiate between simple concepts and then you try to pass yourself off as a person who is worthy of debate.

You wasted my time and a great deal of everyone elses. You want me to take that post seriously? Prove that my statements are false. I can substantiate every single one with surveys and statistics and these are run of the mill for this forum.

Half of what I posted went right over the top of your head. Any credibility you thought you had just got shot to sh1t with that ridiculous post. Im not even going to bother paying any further attention to you.

 

[The Message Boy]

^^^ Still "whining" lol. Oh so you are ignoring me now? Lol, my feelings are SO hurt as a result of that.

 

[romangod]

You are retarded and this is pointless.

Bingo! You're arguing with a retard. Is it really worth the energy?

Manginas thrive on this kind of attention. It brings out the woman in them.



Cheers!

 

[DJDanny]

If I might make a suggestion to The Message Boy, rather then telling us all those points are wrong because you think something, do a little research and then you can enlighten yourself.

Yes, 70% of divorces are filed by women, yes there are more women in university/college then men, yes 20+% of children are raised by men who don't realize it's not their child. and that's just the tip of it.

The simple use of google would confirm all these facts for you, are you seriously to ignorant to be able to educate yourself?

And by all means, if you feel like a woman has sexually harassed you, then go ahead and report it and watch as your ass gets laughed at.

 

[The Message Boy]

Danger,

Do you consider it equal that today there are all sorts of sources for women's grants but not for men.

Danger there's grants for everybody. I use this site alot >> www.cfda.gov. There's some that target women specifically but you aren't telling me men don't get alot of government incentives. Hell, we as men run majority of the wealth in the WORLD, thus, we pay less taxes compared to women. Those little programs are NOTHING in comparision.

I don't want this to turn into a men v.s. women debate, but it's starting to and that's a shame.

DJDanny says,

If I might make a suggestion to The Message Boy, rather then telling us all those points are wrong because you think something, do a little research and then you can enlighten yourself. Yes, 70% of divorces are filed by women, yes there are more women in university/college then men, yes 20+% of children are raised by men who don't realize it's not their child. and that's just the tip of it.

First off, I didn't throw out what the "Harry" guy said, I said it was up for debate, in other words further verification.

Women are enrolling more in college than men are. But to say they are more educated as Harry said I wouldn't think so but again, I would have to verify that with further research, Harry threw out alot of dumb ass numbers a couple minutes ago that meant nothing lol.

The stats I see is that divorce rates are 50% to 70% period, I haven't read anything about WOMEN starting most of the divorces, the stats I seen it was more 50/50. And I don't know about 20% of men raising a child that's not theirs, how in the hell can you possibly TRACK a number like that if the Father doesn't KNOW??

How about you guys do this lol? Post stats, the next post you guys make instead of wasting your time with personal attacks like "mangina" or "pvssy-whipped" how about you posts stats from reliable sources to back up EVERY CLAIM you are making.

So American Women svck and foreign women are better? Post stats from reliable sources.

So Women shouldn't be given equal opportunity because men can do everything so much better? Post stats from reliable sources.

So feminism is taking over the country? Posts stats.

I can post stat after stat and link after link from VERY GOOD SOURCES, to prove my stances of women deserve equal opportunity and can do MOST jobs just as good or better than a man.

I seen that Harry decided to not address my OPRAH example right after he just made the DUMB ASS assertion that women have no potential to run a successful business.

This shouldn't be a debate about who's more important or man v.s woman. I just want you guys to STOP bashing women. Geez. If that makes me a mangina so be it.

 

[STR8UP]

This shouldn't be a debate about who's more important or man v.s woman. I just want you guys to STOP bashing women. Geez. If that makes me a mangina so be it.

Man + Vagina = Mangina. You are proud of this?

Before this thread gets locked I would just like to point out that this is a testament to just how feminized our society has become.

Or is it just this site? It's quickly devolving into a LoveShack type beta male circle jerk. "Ohhh that feels soooo good Tom.....don't stop....."

It used to be the wealth threads and the looks threads that you couldn't have a debate on without some half clued doofus claiming that looks and wealth don't matter with women, now we are scraping the bottom of the barrel with chumps getting their silken panties twisted when someone so much as mentions women in a critical light.

Such a shame that so many men are sitting here rejecting this incredibly enlightening information in favor of the damning societal conditioning that brought them here in the first place.

You come here seeking answers, and when the most intelligent, most experienced guys on here try to cut that umbilical cord that tethers you to all of the bad information that has made you a failure your entire life, you slap the scissors out of their hands. Amazing.

I would have been perfectly content to continue to post here off and on whenever I feel like it were it not for the fact that it makes my stomach turn just to read the toxic sludge that these keyboard jockeys are turning out.

Maybe one day you boys will man-up and take that bitter tasting pill that will free you from the ignorance that torments you. Maybe you will be a lower beta for the rest of your life, content to live a life of celibacy, or even worse on the end of a whithered up cougar's leash licking her feet.

If you DO manage to unplug sufficiently you just might get an invite to participate in an off the beaten path community that discourages irrational, emotional bullsh!t and embraces a positive masculine frame. Everyone else.....have fun placating each others fears and insecurities with your own denial.

7 More posts to go.

 

[The Message Boy]

Lol yeah Str8up we are all doomed. Ha, I'm getting out of this debate though because you guys are not debating the topic, instead, it's Message Boy is a mangina because he doesn't think like you do.

Some of us actually don't walk around thinking that women are out to get us, I don't know what's "masculine" about thinking like that anyway but.

I'm out of this discussion.

And Danger women have specific grants created for them in higher number than those made only for men, yes. But again, this doesn't mean women are all out to get us.

But hey, forget it lol, think what you want. I'm out of this discussion.

 

[DJDanny]

The Message Boy,

You seem to be completely misunderstanding the point, you seem to be completely fixated on men and women being the same, sorry to say but we're not, we don't think the same, we don't have the same rationalization for doing things and we have completely different morality.

You know why I can say you're clueless? Because I used to think like you, then I opened my mind to reality, found a great girl, returned to my old ways of thinking, lost said girl. I have looked back at our relationship and can see key moments as I lost the frame and she lost respect for me, it ended up with me turning into a mangina like you. In most successful relationships men and women have different roles, yes there are exceptions as you seem to love to point out, but that doesn't invalidate the rule. Perhaps you'll find a girl who is "different" and that'll work til she leaves you 5 years down the road after years of her wearing the pants and loosing respect for you. If you want any future LTR to work, the man needs to lead and command the respect of the woman, don't confuse that with demand, because that's impossible, your actions will be what determines her level of respect for you, just you should be reading her actions rather then listening to her words.

The only difference between you and I, is that I pulled my head out of the sand and hopefully you do too at some point. You're on a website that promotes self-growth and self-discovery through embracing your masculinity and you're somehow suprised you are meeting resistence when you insist we should all bend over backwards to accomodate the disadvantaged woman? I really don't think this website is for you, I think you're just more comfortable with your posse of female "friends".

And for the record, I am not bitter at women, don't get me wrong after our breakup I was definately bitter at her, but instead of continuing to be bitter, I used it as a oppourtunity to better myself. Marriage isn't a sure thing, it's a gamble, I took it once and lost, but you know I'll probably give it another whirl again, this time with my head up and with experience in my back pocket. You either learn from your mistakes, or you are doomed to repeat them. I don't know your personal situation but it seems to me you're here because you're not as successful with women as you wish you were, yet at the same time you refuse to open your mind to what others have to say and just push your thoughts despite the fact they aren't even working for you.

 

[Tictac]

And here's the truth,..

I've been married for over 13 years now and I'm happy with my marriage, my family and the conditions in my household. In this time I have NEVER heard my wife tell me our relationship needed work, nor have I EVER thought that we might. She respects my identity and I respect hers. I have never asked her to change her personality to accommodate my expectations, nor would I since I know this would never be a genuine change. In turn I have never tried to change my identity to better accommodate her and in fact the surest way I could turn her off would be to do this.

The honest truth to this myth is:
Good relationships are effortless when both partners have a mutual respect for each other's identities and appreciate the relationship they share.

The tragedy in all of this is that this simple truth doesn't sell self-help books; the "how to change him" feminine psychology is self-prepetuating and self-defeating. The relationships-are-work crowd ultimately push away people who would otherwise be good mates or else change the character of the person so drastically that they cease to be the man they were attracted to in the beginning

Absolutely!
Tictac

 

[Aenigma]

If it weren't for your post, Rollo's and Str8up's this whole topic would serve its best useful purpose inside the Recycle Bin.

They're casting pearls before swine. Uniniatied AFCs will cling to anyone who offeres to support their internal worldview of how womankind works; cracks in their edifice must appear before they're open to the truth- whether its via having azzholes get all the girls, being cheated on/dumped repeatidly, or taken to the cleaners via divorce. Something has to give before they're open to the truth; and unfortunately so much of SS these days is dedicated to patching over cracks in the AFC edifice rather then using these moments of opportunity to open the poor AFCs minds at the rare moments that they're open to it.

 

[Zunder]

This is why I have absolutely no respect for you or people of your ilk. You are so ignorant its laughable yet you accuse others of ignorance. As I said earlier, you are the epitome of everything that is wrong with modern day liberal men. You are a mangina. This post is probably a waste of time though because I dont believe you even bother to read through anything before you respond. So what I say is for the sake of those who would typically agree with your views and if you make your way through this before you lose concentration I will be pleasantly surprised.

For some reason you seem to see traditional gender roles as evil. You seem to think that traditional roles are oppressive. That a womans contribution to society within that framework is of lesser value. No real man believes that and no real man hates woman. No real man thinks that his ability to put food on the table is more important than her ability to raise children. Worse than that, you have the audacity to label people who believe in traditional gender roles as backward and ignorant. Women themselves saw value in the family unit up until feminism managed to convince them that they were somehow missing out on the glory of career. That they were being held back from the good stuff.

Nowhere have I said that women should be denied the vote. No where have I said that they should not be allowed equal employment opportunity. No where did I say that women are not free to socialise with who they want to nor have I never said that they are not entitled to an opinion on anything. YOU, you fvcking idiot, YOU, automatically ASSUME that I believe this because I believe that men and women are suited to certain tasks more than the other. You assume this because you automatically assume that any man who believes in traditional values and traditional roles is a misogynist who fears women! This is a system of belief that has been hammered into you. The minute someone disagrees with you is the minute you resort to shaming tactics and the assumption that the people you are dealing with are ignorant. What I take issue with is spineless idiots like yourself who somehow think that men who dont share your world view are barbaric woman haters.

You dont even understand feminism do you? There is a huge difference between basic civil rights and feminism. Feminists, real genuine feminists, dont believe there is a difference in gender. They believe gender is preconceived notion. That it is merely a social construct. That men and women are 100% equal in every respect and its a "patriarchal" conspiracy to keep women down because men fear them and their potential. Its was a movement driven and created by a bunch of dykes that did not give a fvck about civil rights. They were women who HATED men like nazi's hated Jews. Do your research!

If you had any understanding of history or had even bothered to take the time understand the history of feminism and the people behind it you would not need to be lectured on it. Instead, like most retarded liberals, your understanding of the subject matter is one that was given to you by the television networks and an educational system run by socialists. You dont bother to investigate anything further, you take popular opinion as your own and then defend it like Trojan despite being utterly fvcking clueless. To make matters worse, the fact that your twisted views have become conventional you have the audacity to attack the people who disagree with you with absolute impunity.

The difference between someone like you and me is that I can make the distinction between civil rights, which I would fight for, and something like feminism, which I see as one of the greatest evils modern day western culture will ever have to endure. It is destroying the very fabric of the family unit and its the family unit that is responsible for stable countries and economies. Being the spoonfed mangina that you are, you see Feminism and civil rights as one and same dont you?

Feminists believed that women were the ABSOLUTE equal of men. Men have never been equal to women and women have never been equal to men. We are different but we complement each other. The proof is right in front of us. Within our own culture and cultures around the world, many of which dont share our warped views. (I exclude the Middle East). We have had equal education since our grandparents were in school and women still produce little in comparison. They are wage slaves. All we have done is broken down the family unit to create more worker bees for corporations. Women simply cannot compete in business. Thats not an opinion, its a fact backed up by statistical evidence! No sane rational person can argue the fact that men are more successful in business and science! Its a rational point of view, one that liberals try to dispute with calls of patriarchy which are simply not true. That has not changed the fact that we have an army of women out there working while the social dynamics of western culture evolves into the cesspit it has become now. Thats not to suggest that women should not be in the workplace! On the contrary, they are INVALUABLE in the workplace. They come into their own in the home though, and the home is as important as the workplace. It is not of lesser value and I spit on anyone who thinks a housewife offers less to her community than some woman working as a PA or high powered executive.

Here are some points to consider. Challenge these facts I will present to you. If your ideology is so entrenched, this will go no where. If you want to discuss civil rights, oppression and fair play, lets really get into this. Lets get a rational argument out of you and lets see exactly how well you understand the current social landscape with regards to gender.

So, Im going to tell you that:

* Single mothers raise more delinquents
* Divorce rate is currently 50%, of which women file for 70%
* Fathers have fewer rights to their children
* 20% of fathers do not know that the children they raise are not theirs
* More women are educated in universities than men (yet men dominate every aspect of business, science and the arts)
* Men get reduced pensions
* Women get more parental leave
* Skewed sexual harassment laws which favour women
* Reproductive rights? Men often have to support children they dont want while they have no right to force a woman to carry a child through to birth.
* Men get longer jail sentences for similar crimes
* Mens health receives reduced funding from government
* More men commit suicide. 80% of suicides are men
* Almost 50% of rape allegations are false
* 40%-50% of domestic violence cases are committed by women

Is this your idea of equality? Is this the reality you believe is fair? You want to talk about social monsters mate? Lets discuss the social monsters I just highlighted.

I dont want to overwhelm you here so we can start with those issues first. If you are going to find fault with masculinity and you believe that feminism "is all about equality", lets have a rational debate on gender here. Most of those are the result of feminist policy making by the way.

I agree with all this mate, a great post.
But just one little thing.
I am what you Americans would call a "Liberal" politcally. Down here (New Zealand) we call it centre-left, or simply someone who supports the working mens parites politically.

Do not automatically assume Liberals/Centre Left people are Manginas, Pro-feministst or any of that skirt wearing crap. I'm a working man, and I just can not bring myself to ever vote "Tory" - or what you guys call Republicans. The toughest sonsof*****es I have ever known have been working class men, men whom vote centre-left. In my country at least, its the "toffs", the namby pamby azzholes born into money, that think their sh!t doesn't stink, - theyre the type that vote for conservative parties.

George Bush was a little wimpy draft dodger - think about that.

Other than that, as I say - great post.

 

[Zunder]

Danger there's grants for everybody. I use this site alot >> www.cfda.gov. There's some that target women specifically but you aren't telling me men don't get alot of government incentives. Hell, we as men run majority of the wealth in the WORLD, thus, we pay less taxes compared to women. Those little programs are NOTHING in comparision.

I don't want this to turn into a men v.s. women debate, but it's starting to and that's a shame.



First off, I didn't throw out what the "Harry" guy said, I said it was up for debate, in other words further verification.

Women are enrolling more in college than men are. But to say they are more educated as Harry said I wouldn't think so but again, I would have to verify that with further research, Harry threw out alot of dumb ass numbers a couple minutes ago that meant nothing lol.

The stats I see is that divorce rates are 50% to 70% period, I haven't read anything about WOMEN starting most of the divorces, the stats I seen it was more 50/50. And I don't know about 20% of men raising a child that's not theirs, how in the hell can you possibly TRACK a number like that if the Father doesn't KNOW??

How about you guys do this lol? Post stats, the next post you guys make instead of wasting your time with personal attacks like "mangina" or "pvssy-whipped" how about you posts stats from reliable sources to back up EVERY CLAIM you are making.

So American Women svck and foreign women are better? Post stats from reliable sources.

So Women shouldn't be given equal opportunity because men can do everything so much better? Post stats from reliable sources.

So feminism is taking over the country? Posts stats.

I can post stat after stat and link after link from VERY GOOD SOURCES, to prove my stances of women deserve equal opportunity and can do MOST jobs just as good or better than a man.

I seen that Harry decided to not address my OPRAH example right after he just made the DUMB ASS assertion that women have no potential to run a successful business.

This shouldn't be a debate about who's more important or man v.s woman. I just want you guys to STOP bashing women. Geez. If that makes me a mangina so be it.

You are 26 years old. You are a kid. You think you know it all - but you don't know sh!t fella. I am sure you can post stat after stat, link after link - good for you.

Got a passport son? Travelled much? Been out of your little comfort zone?
Scraped the barrels and marched on with not so much as two pennies to rub together - but made a go of it? Been though a messy breakup with a woman or two?

Ah, but what the heck. You know it all aye - 26 and you have all the answers.
All the answers to life are but a google search away, aye.

Come back kiddo when you have some real life experience, then you might have earned the right to disrespect your elders whith your bonafide, quantifiable NON COMPUTERISED life experience.

Until then - shut the fuk up.

 

[The Message Boy]

Ok I know I said I'm out of this debate and I still am, but I want to respond to DJDanny.

DJDanny says,

You seem to be completely misunderstanding the point, you seem to be completely fixated on men and women being the same, sorry to say but we're not, we don't think the same, we don't have the same rationalization for doing things and we have completely different morality.

DJDanny, okay, you don't seem to be in the big "rah, rah" crowd so maybe I can talk to you. Okay, pay attention, if anything I'm about to say you dont' understand just tell me and I will clarify.

I NEVER SAID that men and women are the same. I NEVER SAID THAT. I do not think that. I do not think that women are better than men. I do not think that women as a whole are smarter than men. I do not think women are more successful then men. I do not think that women as a collective whole are more talented then men. I do not think that women have made even CLOSE to the contributions to our society that men have. There would be NO WOMEN if it was not for men.

This entire debate between me and these guys started because earlier in this thread and in a thread by Trader, the guys were talking about how women should go back to traditional roles because they had no other REAL VALUE IN SOCIETY but to make babies and clean the house. That's what they said DJDanny. If you think I'm lying I will post the quotes.

So when I read what they said, I said how can you guys make such a claim when this woman did this and this woman did that, and I posted links on women inventors and successful women that have contributed to society, etc. I also went into a good example on Oprah. Basically in a nutshell, my reply to them DJDanny was that if a particular woman had the skills, the drive, and the ability to succeed in a position she should be given that opportunity. That's all I said.

Right after that, these guys starting jumping in left and right calling me a liberal, pvssy-worshipper, mangina, saying I was indoctrined with feminism, all types of ****.

It was funny just to go back and forth with them for awhile but it just started to get boring, plus they seemed to be getting upset so I just stopped responding and said I was getting out of the debate.

DJDanny says,

You either learn from your mistakes, or you are doomed to repeat them. I don't know your personal situation but it seems to me you're here because you're not as successful with women as you wish you were, yet at the same time you refuse to open your mind to what others have to say and just push your thoughts despite the fact they aren't even working for you.

That's not it at all. I'm actually here because I have a post in the Health and Fitness forum where I'm toning down and I also posted an "Issues" post over personal issues I am still dealing with from childhood. I like the feedback on particular situations I might be having.

I have no idea how this discussion got so out of hand.

 

[Slickster]

You guys are funny.

1. This post wasn't meant to be pro-marriage or pro-feminism.

2. This post was about men admitting that they are at least HALF responsible for their failed relationships and marriages.

3. Many people have stated that this forum hasn't become anti-woman or anti-marriage. After 5 pages of this BS what do you think now?

4. I haven't said anything that I feel has been pro-marriage or pro-feminism. In fact I stated early on that I'm not a huge marriage proponent. I've repeatedly stated that this post was about trying to get men to look at things from a different perspective. I don't think that has been acknowledged even once. So much for critical thinking.

5. I haven't attacked anyone regarding the topic at hand. I never called anyone a misogynist however have made reference to those people being out there. Throughout the post I've been called names like feminist, ignorant, loser, lazy, wvssy, stupid, and generally made out to be some sort of AFC idiot. Not very fair at all considering all I've done is try to look at things differently. *The only person who has the right to attack me would be Rollo because I poked some fun at him for his long-winded psych textbook-like responses. Which by the way weren't made with any sort of malice. Sorry Rollo you have to admit some of your stuff comes off a wee bit pretentious.

6. The fact that this discussion has spiralled out of control only proves that this forum is suffering. Mature man forum? Really? I think there are a lot of people here who have some serious issues. It's going to be a lonely life for some. At least you have this place support I guess?

In summary I can't see any progress being made here and really hope that this thread is closed soon. The last time I've seen a discussion like this was way back at university watching a group of women's studies students at their feminist rally. I personally find hardcore feminists very annoying just like the rest of you. At this point I have to say the same thing about hardcore masculinists too.

Good luck all.

Peace

 

[Zunder]

Ok I know I said I'm out of this debate and I still am, but I want to respond to DJDanny.



DJDanny, okay, you don't seem to be in the big "rah, rah" crowd so maybe I can talk to you. Okay, pay attention, if anything I'm about to say you dont' understand just tell me and I will clarify.

I NEVER SAID that men and women are the same. I NEVER SAID THAT. I do not think that. I do not think that women are better than men. I do not think that women as a whole are smarter than men. I do not think women are more successful then men. I do not think that women as a collective whole are more talented then men. I do not think that women have made even CLOSE to the contributions to our society that men have. There would be NO WOMEN if it was not for men.

This entire debate between me and these guys started because earlier in this thread and in a thread by Trader, the guys were talking about how women should go back to traditional roles because they had no other REAL VALUE IN SOCIETY but to make babies and clean the house. That's what they said DJDanny. If you think I'm lying I will post the quotes.

So when I read what they said, I said how can you guys make such a claim when this woman did this and this woman did that, and I posted links on women inventors and successful women that have contributed to society, etc. I also went into a good example on Oprah. Basically in a nutshell, my reply to them DJDanny was that if a particular woman had the skills, the drive, and the ability to succeed in a position she should be given that opportunity. That's all I said.

Right after that, these guys starting jumping in left and right calling me a liberal, pvssy-worshipper, mangina, saying I was indoctrined with feminism, all types of ****.

It was funny just to go back and forth with them for awhile but it just started to get boring, plus they seemed to be getting upset so I just stopped responding and said I was getting out of the debate.




That's not it at all. I'm actually here because I have a post in the Health and Fitness forum where I'm toning down and I also posted an "Issues" post over personal issues I am still dealing with from childhood. I like the feedback on particular situations I might be having.

I have no idea how this discussion got so out of hand.

Right - I am going to read your "Issues" post, and your Health post. I started lifting at 13 when most people thought bodybuilders were all gay and way before joining a gym was fashionable, and I have had more personal "issues" packed into my 4 decades than most could shake a stick at. So - I may be of help.

I am no "Master Dj" with the women, but I know a thing or two about life.

Things become issues when youngbucks think they know it all. You may be a smart fella, but don't be a smartarse, especially towards those older than you that deserve some respect with the experience they have behind them.

 

[Nutz]

So, Im going to tell you that:

* Single mothers raise more delinquents
* Divorce rate is currently 50%, of which women file for 70%
* Fathers have fewer rights to their children
* 20% of fathers do not know that the children they raise are not theirs
* More women are educated in universities than men (yet men dominate every aspect of business, science and the arts)
* Men get reduced pensions
* Women get more parental leave
* Skewed sexual harassment laws which favour women
* Reproductive rights? Men often have to support children they dont want while they have no right to force a woman to carry a child through to birth.
* Men get longer jail sentences for similar crimes
* Mens health receives reduced funding from government
* More men commit suicide. 80% of suicides are men
* Almost 50% of rape allegations are false
* 40%-50% of domestic violence cases are committed by women

Is this your idea of equality? Is this the reality you believe is fair? You want to talk about social monsters mate? Lets discuss the social monsters I just highlighted.

I dont want to overwhelm you here so we can start with those issues first. If you are going to find fault with masculinity and you believe that feminism "is all about equality", lets have a rational debate on gender here. Most of those are the result of feminist policy making by the way.

FYI that last bullet point about domestic violence is slightly off and a misnomer actually. It's actually 50% for RECIPRICAL violence, where both male & female are involved. When the violence is unidirectional 70-80% of those performing the assault are actually female! So to the manginas and feminists in the crowd, tell me again how that espouses equality and makes things like VAWA justified?


Now which guy would you rather be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRJx9__gqu8

Think about it. Don't blame the woman. Women are what they are. It's up to you to decide which end of the dynamic you'll be on, so do something about it! Way too many guys come on here and whine about how women are low quality. I've learned to reject that notion now that I've realized women are basically all the same when it comes to morals and whatnot.


See also:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=162546

 

[LovelyLady]

My responses refer to conditions in the United States only.

* Single mothers raise more delinquents

This statement is true when comparing single parent households to two parent households - regardless of who heads the single parent household.

87% of single parent households are headed by the Mother, so yeah, due to the absence of the Fathers, the majority are raised by their Mothers. It would be great if more Fathers were active in the raising of their children; nodoubt there would be fewer delinquents with more children benefiting from both parents actively loving them.



* Divorce rate is currently 50%, of which women file for 70%

Both men and women presently have the same legal right to file for divorce.

It is correct that more petitions for divorce are filed by women.


* Fathers have fewer rights to their children.


95% of all divorces go uncontested - which means the Fathers have agreed to the custody arrangements prior to entering court.

Of the remaining 5% that have the judge rule on custody, statistics range from 63% to 70% of the custody being awarded to the Father.

A little history: Until the mid 1850's custody laws dictated of children ALWAYS went to the Father and women had no rights (In the U.S.) It was one of the goals of the first wave of Feminism to allow divorced women the right to see their children.


* 20% of fathers do not know that the children they raise are not theirs

This statement is misleading.

Of the small number of men who question the paternity of a pregnancy with a woman due to circumstances surrounding the conception, 20% who felt it necassary to test for DNA, found they were not the biological Father. It does not automatically follow that of ALL Fathers everywhere 20% are raising children that are not their own.


* More women are educated in universities than men (yet men dominate every aspect of business, science and the arts)


Yes, that is correct.[/I]

* Men get reduced pensions

Please explain how this has any bearing on your premise?

* Women get more parental leave...

Not in the United States. The law stipulates zero weeks paid maternity and zero weeks paid paternity leave. Both genders are equally allowed 12 weeks Unpaid leave.

* Skewed sexual harassment laws which favour women

The laws are not gender specific.


* Reproductive rights? Men often have to support children they dont want while they have no right to force a woman to carry a child through to birth.

Yes, this is correct. What do you think is a fair solution?

* Men get longer jail sentences for similar crimes.

True. They serve longer sentances due to higher rates of poor behavior while incarcerated. Also, womens jails are overcrowded so more are released sooner (There is more space allotted for male inmates.)

* Mens health receives reduced funding from government.

Are you saying that men's funding was reduced, or are you trying to say that more money is given to fund women's health issues rather than money given to male specific health issues?

And by "issues" do mean general care, research, or pharmaceutical/prescription benefits?

* More men commit suicide. 80% of suicides are men.

Although this is a trajic statistic, this is not an inequality of rights. Until 1961 it was illegal, regardless of gender, to commit suicide. Since the suicide act of 1961, both men and women have equal rights of suicide under the law.

For every male attempt, three females attempt. Men are more "successful" because they usually choose more active forms of suicide (guns and hanging) whereas women usually choose more passive (and thus less effective) forms (overdosing, wristcutting/bleeding to death)

* Almost 50% of rape allegations are false

Actually this statistic can vary from 2% to 80%, depending on the criteria of the study.

In studies, often rape and sexual assault that does not include penetration are used interchangably with "rape" so this can raise the overall % of "false" accusations significantly (please note I put false in quotes as it is important to understand the use of the word within the context of the studies, rather than in what the layman assumes it's interpretation to be. I am in no way saying that there are not instances where some women intentionally lied outright.).

"False" allegations in some studies include women who the police deamed as not physically damaged or traumatized enough to be considered raped, rapes women who knew their attackers were deemed false accusations in some studies, rapes where the charges were dropped are often included in the "false" category, rapes where the women who did not file charges within a certain period of time following the event are also often included under the definition of "false allegations". It also often includes when women have clearly been raped but wrongly identified the wrong suspects - a misidentification rate that is not higher for rape than other crime's misidentifications.

* 40%-50% of domestic violence cases are committed by women.

This is correct when you include children, but not female on male violence.

Interesting stats on this topic
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...+violence+statistics&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

***

 

[LovelyLady]

^^^^^^^ women and men don't exist in us only

That is correct, hence the clarification at the beginning of my reply.

 

[The Message Boy]

Slickster says,

The fact that this discussion has spiralled out of control only proves that this forum is suffering. Mature man forum? Really? I think there are a lot of people here who have some serious issues. It's going to be a lonely life for some. At least you have this place support I guess?

Thank you! LOL, I mean you can see the obvious "group conscious" around here as being along the lines of "Don't trust women, women svck, and if you don't agree with that you are apart of the matrix."

You can't have a conversation with a "church person" about God without them condemning you as "going to hell" just because you asked OBVIOUS questions. And you can't have a conversation with guys on Sosuave about women equal opportunity or women value without "being apart of the matrix/being brainwashed by the media and feminists."

Slickster says,

I personally find hardcore feminists very annoying just like the rest of you. At this point I have to say the same thing about hardcore masculinists too.

And this is what they don't understand Slick lol. They don't understand that those SAME hardcore feminists that they protest against, are just as WRONG as they are for preaching hardcore patriarchal sermons and stances.

BOTH groups are like religion fantanics preaching an universal RIGHT AND WRONG, thus, ANYBODY that goes against their "religion" is evil. Thus, why they called me "evil" and "mangina" and "pvssy-worshipper" and lol "liberal" because my stances went against their RELIGION.

Last I heard this was a DISCUSSION forum, where we lay topics out on the table and debate those topics. We question what we are "told" to think either by mainstream media or other guys on Sosuave.

If we debate the topics, I think honest disagreement is good. But when we STOP debating the topics and allow our own "RELIGION" to take over our emotions to where we instead take the debate personal an ATTACK the debater, WE ALL lose.