The Reminder

[Purple-Haze]

What I'm saying is a lot of behaviors and actions women take is a test of his interest level. If he gives in to her too much then he's "too" interested. But if he just tells her "no", she will see a challenge and be more attracted/stay attracted. Contrast that with the guy saying to her "you play games". In the latter example she does not want to be challenged directly on her actions and behavior. She wants to be indirectly challenge by him causing her to wonder what his interest level in her is.

Challenging her isn't necessarily his inability to show her interest. I am talking about what happens BEYOND the initial exchange of interest.

If you are stuck engaged in mind fu@king, you won't get anywhere. The challenge only becomes important once you establish initial interest.

I think you're missing my point entirely.

 

[ketostix]

A man who sees through games and cuts through the crap IS A MAN. One who wallows in "all women this...all women that" IS NOT a man.

This what I mean when women don't want to be directly challenged for in your own words "games and crap". They want a guy to just ignore it and put up with it and proceed and lead her.

 

[Purple-Haze]

This what I mean when women don't want to be directly challenged for in your own words "games and crap". They want a guy to just ignore it and put up with it and proceed and lead her.

How were you directly challenging me?

First of all, your using our exchange as an example is pointless. You and I are not interested in each other. We are two people on a forum having a discussion. This isn't a "pick up" situation, is it? So why apply those rules here?

I was not avoiding answering your question. To be honest, I'm a little confused as you what you are saying and what the point was in quoting me about one who wallows not being a man.

I can tell you that I like to be challenged by my bf. It keeps things interesting and tells me that he isn't a dud who nods his head at everything I say. It also shows sincerity. I know he's interested in what I have to say but he does not pander to my every whim. I also know that my gfs operate like this. The guys they've stuck with and are happy with are the ones that don't take their crap or their games. These guys challenge them and engage in healthy debate and do not cower just because he thinks he may offend her.

 

[iqqi]

What I'm saying is a lot of behaviors and actions women take is a test of his interest level. If he gives in to her too much then he's "too" interested. But if he just tells her "no", she will see a challenge and be more attracted/stay attracted. Contrast that with the guy saying to her "you play games". In the latter example she does not want to be challenged directly on her actions and behavior. She wants to be indirectly challenge by him causing her to wonder what his interest level in her is.

You are thinking too much. Another point of my OP. This is becoming detrimental to your understanding of women.

What you kind of described is the doormat issue. If you stopped trying to read into it SO much, and put it simpler, you would have the common knowledge that noone is attracted to a doormat. And that simpler statement is more accurate than your previous statement.

One of the ways I know a man is really into me, is when he does stupid things for me, or even just does something I ask. This is because I know he is NOT a doormat, so it means something when he goes out into the stormy night, just to bring me a Snickers Bar that I hinted at wanting. For example. To get deeper into that for you, Keto darlin', of course he "qualified" me too. It's not he is just running every chick a Snickers bar.

The Santana song where Rob Thomas says "I would change my life to better suit your mood" has always been very sexy to me.

But you have to understand that those kinds of gestures HAVE to be taken in context. There is a fine line between desperate and doormat, and a man who is doing something for the woman he is seriously pursuing.

Also, once I see a gesture like that, where I see the extent a man is willing to go for ME specifically, then I am more willing to take him seriously. And let my feelings get deeper.

On a tangent, players understand that concept very well.


Besides all that, women don't want to sit around and guess what a man's interest is in her all the time. That is games. Many women find a man who KNOWS what he wants to be MUCH SEXIER than a man who isn't sure.

 

[reset]

What I'm saying is a lot of behaviors and actions women take is a test of his interest level. If he gives in to her too much then he's "too" interested. But if he just tells her "no", she will see a challenge and be more attracted/stay attracted. Contrast that with the guy saying to her "you play games". In the latter example she does not want to be challenged directly on her actions and behavior. She wants to be indirectly challenge by him causing her to wonder what his interest level in her is.

Edit: P-H you are talking about challenge in a different light. You are saying boldness and confidence shallenges you. Reset is talking about something else. And iqqi just arguing because she feels threatened like she alsways does. I can see what you all are saying but we are talking about different things.

Right but the distinction here needs to be made between ATTRACTION and INTEREST. Again, you're a sexual masucline man. You see a physically attractive woman. It's NORMAL to want to jump in bed with her, it's normal to send out those subconscious vibes, and it's normal for her to want the same and send the same non-verbal signs to you. THIS IS HOW WE MAKE BABIES. To HIDE that part of you, is to hide your masculinity. To hide your sexuality. It doesn't work.

Now I struggled with this as well. It's subtle. How do you "show her" that she doesn't "own you" and still be in that sexual "I like you pretty girl" at the same time. I mean if you're totally hiding your attraction, and you end up having sex, that's called rape. This communication HAS to be happening, although you don't need words for the communication.

INTEREST is totally separate. It's actual INTEREST IN HER AS A HUMAN BEING--the things she does, her opinions, her interests, how she treats other people, is she kind and caring, is she laid back and casual, each man has certain traits he'd like from a girl who he is going to spend time with beyond sex, to make it worthwhile. And since people are so different, no girl or man is going to fit the other's requirements all the time. And since your time is VALUABLE, you want to "cut to the chase" and see if she and you are on a similar level. So you CHALLENGE her, in the way you act, the way you speak, the way you monitor her behavior towards you. So you monitor shyt tests. If she resorts to jealousy because your interest seems to be tentative. All that stuff, you look for, take note of, and hold her accountable for (and you do that by subtly showing, you will indeed walk away). She knows it. She knows you're "on to her games" and she's going to love you for it.

She is s a sexual being, you acknowledge that. You are a sexual being and you acknowledge that too. But INTEREST is the next level from that, and I believe women if they are attracted to a man WANT THE MAN to actually HAVE that interest, and they get off on qualifying to you and to EARN that prize from you--that prize being your genuine, (if sometimes elusive) interest in her as a PERSON. NOT because she's hot, or has a nice body, or any of the other things. She wants to CONNECT, to a man she perceives as a masculine man with standards. That's the guy she'll feel safe with, that's the guy that's going to push all her buttons, and that's the guy she's going to obsess over. It is intimidating, but the good kind.

Wow I'm really on a roll here, but it helps me to clarify what I'm learning and experiencing.

 

[iqqi]

You are making some great posts, reset.

 

[Purple-Haze]

Right but the distinction here needs to be made between ATTRACTION and INTEREST. Again, you're a sexual masucline man. You see a physically attractive woman. It's NORMAL to want to jump in bed with her, it's normal to send out those subconscious vibes, and it's normal for her to want the same and send the same non-verbal signs to you. THIS IS HOW WE MAKE BABIES. To HIDE that part of you, is to hide your masculinity. To hide your sexuality. It doesn't work.

Now I struggled with this as well. It's subtle. How do you "show her" that she doesn't "own you" and still be in that sexual "I like you pretty girl" at the same time. I mean if you're totally hiding your attraction, and you end up having sex, that's called rape. This communication HAS to be happening, although you don't need words for the communication.

INTEREST is totally separate. It's actual INTEREST IN HER AS A HUMAN BEING--the things she does, her opinions, her interests, how she treats other people, is she kind and caring, is she laid back and casual, each man has certain traits he'd like from a girl who he is going to spend time with beyond sex, to make it worthwhile. And since people are so different, no girl or man is going to fit the other's requirements. And since your time is VALUABLE, you want to "cut to the chase" and see if she and you are on a similar level. So you CHALLENGE her, in the way you act, the way you speak, the way you monitor her behavior towards you. So you monitor shyt tests. If she resorts to jealousy because your interest seems to be tentative. All that stuff, you look for, take note of, and hold her accountable for. She knows it. She knows you're "on to her games" and she's going to love you for it.

She is s a sexual being, you acknowledge that. You are a sexual being and you acknowledge that too. But INTEREST is the next level from that, and I believe women if they are attracted to a man WANT THE MAN to actually HAVE that interest, and they get off on qualifying to you and to EARN that prize from you--that prize being your genuine, (if sometimes elusive) interest in her as a PERSON. NOT because she's hot, or has a nice body, or any of the other things. She wants to CONNECT, to a man she perceives as a masculine man with standards. That's the guy she'll feel safe with, that's the guy that's going to push all her buttons, and that's the guy she's going to obsess over. It is intimidating, but the good kind.

Wow I'm really on a roll here, but it helps me to clarify what I'm learning and experiencing.

You are right again reset. It is a balance of challenge and interest. If you are disingenuous in the exchange, she WILL sniff it out and lose interest fast. If you come on like a desperate puppy, she will run in the opposite direction.

Once you get through the initial (but often inevitable) games, you get to the REAL meat of the exchange - this is where you need to maintain the challenge, but also express your desire and interest. It is this mix that makes a woman go insane with passion. She won't know what hit her.

 

[ketostix]

How were you directly challenging me?

I was saying your quote about how you view a man who judges women is a direct challenge to women and they don't like that. I'm not talking about you and me, get a grip on yourself.

First of all, your using our exchange as an example is pointless. You and I are not interested in each other. We are two people on a forum having a discussion. This isn't a "pick up" situation, is it? So why apply those rules here?

Again, I was not talking about you and me. I was talking about any guy and how directly challenging her isn't what she likes for a challenge. This isn't a PU situation but the rules apply where ever and through any medium a guy and girl communcate.

I was not avoiding answering your question. To be honest, I'm a little confused as you what you are saying and what the point was in quoting me about one who wallows not being a man.

I've been realizing for awhile you are not understanding and are discussing different things. But to try to clear it up, what you consider a guy "wallowing" also includes a guy directly challenging you actions and behaviors. But a woman doesn't see it as challenge she sees it as judging, complaining etc. I was just using your quote to illustrate an earlier point.

I can tell you that I like to be challenged by my bf. It keeps things interesting and tells me that he isn't a dud who nods his head at everything I say. It also shows sincerity. I know he's interested in what I have to say but he does not pander to my every whim. I also know that my gfs operate like this. The guys they've stuck with and are happy with are the ones that don't take their crap or their games. These guys challenge them and engage in healthy debate and do not cower just because he thinks he may offend her.

Now if you're saying a girl wants her BF to tell her whats wrong with her actions and behaviors (what I'm calling directly challenge her), and I add what you said earlier in this post "you are not my bf", then the conclusion becomes, "if my BF is critical it is a challenge, but if some other guy does it, he's just "wallowing"". You will try to wiggle out of this or misunderstand but don't bother. It's also a female trait that women are fine with a guy directly challenge her, but will take greter offense if a guy directly challenges typical female actions and behaviors.

 

[ketostix]

Right but the distinction here needs to be made between ATTRACTION and INTEREST. Again, you're a sexual masucline man. You see a physically attractive woman. It's NORMAL to want to jump in bed with her, it's normal to send out those subconscious vibes, and it's normal for her to want the same and send the same non-verbal signs to you. THIS IS HOW WE MAKE BABIES. To HIDE that part of you, is to hide your masculinity. To hide your sexuality. It doesn't work.

Now I struggled with this as well. It's subtle. How do you "show her" that she doesn't "own you" and still be in that sexual "I like you pretty girl" at the same time. I mean if you're totally hiding your attraction, and you end up having sex, that's called rape. This communication HAS to be happening, although you don't need words for the communication.

INTEREST is totally separate. It's actual INTEREST IN HER AS A HUMAN BEING--the things she does, her opinions, her interests, how she treats other people, is she kind and caring, is she laid back and casual, each man has certain traits he'd like from a girl who he is going to spend time with beyond sex, to make it worthwhile. And since people are so different, no girl or man is going to fit the other's requirements all the time. And since your time is VALUABLE, you want to "cut to the chase" and see if she and you are on a similar level. So you CHALLENGE her, in the way you act, the way you speak, the way you monitor her behavior towards you. So you monitor shyt tests. If she resorts to jealousy because your interest seems to be tentative. All that stuff, you look for, take note of, and hold her accountable for (and you do that by subtly showing, you will indeed walk away). She knows it. She knows you're "on to her games" and she's going to love you for it.

She is s a sexual being, you acknowledge that. You are a sexual being and you acknowledge that too. But INTEREST is the next level from that, and I believe women if they are attracted to a man WANT THE MAN to actually HAVE that interest, and they get off on qualifying to you and to EARN that prize from you--that prize being your genuine, (if sometimes elusive) interest in her as a PERSON. NOT because she's hot, or has a nice body, or any of the other things. She wants to CONNECT, to a man she perceives as a masculine man with standards. That's the guy she'll feel safe with, that's the guy that's going to push all her buttons, and that's the guy she's going to obsess over. It is intimidating, but the good kind.

Wow I'm really on a roll here, but it helps me to clarify what I'm learning and experiencing.

OK I think you are getting into the WHY a guy is attracted to a girl (more precisely the "why" or reasons she wants to believe a guy is attracted to her), and what I'm talking about is the question of HOW much a guy is attracted to a girl. She wants to think there's a limit and conditions on his attraction to her. Then she assume all the WHY's, or as you put reasons to be interest in her on the guys part, for herself.

 

[Purple-Haze]

keto, your communication style is confusing. But let me attempt to respond to you.

I was saying your quote about how you view a man who judges women is a direct challenge to women and they don't like that. I'm not talking about you and me, get a grip on yourself.

No, it is not a challenge. It is wallowing. Big difference. If a man were to point out a SPECIFIC example and make a critique of it, then one can say that is warranted (i.e. woman x did this, I said this, bla bla bla). What YOU do is you generalize. You seem to think you know what EVERY woman wants and needs. This goes to my point about man-hating women with low self-esteem getting the spotlight. Your views come from your experience with such women. So you view everything said by a woman on here with that particular experience - it colours HOW you read what I write and HOW you respond to it. I don't blame you - it seems to come naturally to you. I suggest, in the interest of true debate and discussion, that you TRY at least to take those glasses off and read what I'm saying with fresh eyes.

Again, I was not talking about you and me. I was talking about any guy and how directly challenging her isn't what she likes for a challenge. This isn't a PU situation but the rules apply where ever and through any medium a guy and girl communcate.

No, the rules do not apply. You could be a female poster and I would respond to you in a similar fashion. We are having a debate/discussion that is independent of the guy-girl dynamic. Obviously it colours what we say (since we both speak from experience) but I don't think the PU situation applies here.

Is this how you approach every exchange you have with a woman?

I've been realizing for awhile you are not understanding and are discussing different things. But to try to clear it up, what you consider a guy "wallowing" also includes a guy directly challenging you actions and behaviors. But a woman doesn't see it as challenge she sees it as judging, complaining etc. I was just using your quote to illustrate an earlier point.

No, a guy wallowing is one who is so steadfast in his beliefs about women as a collective that it grows into a kind of passive hate (which I wrote, almost verbatim in a previous post - one to which you have yet to respond). Again, you and I are somewhat confused about what the other is saying. Let's not talk about OUR exchange on this thread - let's talk about the male-female exchange as it happens in IRL. I think it might lead to a more fruitful discussion.

Now if you're saying a girl wants her BF to tell her whats wrong with her actions and behaviors (what I'm calling directly challenge her), and I add what you said earlier in this post "you are not my bf", then the conclusion becomes, "if my BF is critical it is a challenge, but if some other guy does it, he's just "wallowing"".

I have no problem with you challenging me. However, with you, I find that you bring in generalizations, quote something and then expect the reader to make an inference just by virtue of placing those two things together. I cannot read your mind - so next time, be a little more explicit in what you are saying.

The challenge you speak of (in the context of a debate) is wholly different than the challenge I was referring to (b/w a man and a woman who are romantically/sexually involved). I've had intelligent debates with my male friends who call me out on some of what I say and I have no problem taking it. My respect for intelligent conversation isn't reserved for my bf alone.

You will try to wiggle out of this or misunderstand but don't bother. It's also a female trait that women are fine with a guy directly challenge her, but will take greter offense if a guy directly challenges typical female actions and behaviors.

Don't bother? Here we go again, keto. You continue to illustrate my points without even knowing it. I have NO PROBLEM admitting the faults of my sex as a whole, however, I also will speak out on silly generalizations and accusations (things you seem to be fond of).

What I find amusing is that I am agreeing with what Rollo said about women liking a man who challenges them. And yet, here you are, arguing with me and telling me that no, women don't like it. I'm a woman. I am saying I do like it when it is sincere.

I hope I was clear.

 

[reset]

OK I think you are getting into the WHY a guy is attracted to a girl (more precisely the "why" or reasons she wants to believe a guy is attracted to her), and what I'm talking about is the question of HOW much a guy is attracted to a girl. She wants to think there's a limit and conditions on his attraction to her. Then she assume all the WHY's, or as you put reasons to be interest in her on the guys part, for herself.

Well what I'm saying is why a guy is interested in her as a person. There are a lot of attractive women on this planet, and even though some of us have a scarcity mindset, to actually just have sex with a chick, even while going through some of those tests Purple Haze alluded to, is not such a big deal, if you have your shyt together (lightbulb moment).

I guess I'm talking about the bigger picture. I mean even while spinning plates, you are not ONLY having sex unless you're Snoop Dogg. There are times where you're going to be at a movie, or just talking, or just normal crap. If that's going to be happening, then damn it really suits your life better if you do those things with a chick you're compatible with. And since you are valuable and so is your time, let's make sure these girls fit in with our lifestyle and worldview, or add to that. This is where the challenging and qualifying comes in. Don't hold back. Be arrogant. Let them call you a jerk. If you're doing it right, they mean it in a good way. Use all your tools as a discriminating man, to make sure you're not caught up with chicks who ONLY play games, or use jealousy, or are flaky, whatever. Someone needs to hold the girl accountable and take the lead, and it may as well be you.

If she's not fitting into your standards, well... you're gonna walk right? If she doesn't treat you well, plays games, unless you're a drama queen yourself, that's not going to do it for you.

So many guys roll over and are that proverbial puppy dog. Women can get away with a lot, treat a guy poorly, and STILL get his undying love and attention, because she looks good. Maybe they need a man to come along and show them, that's not how to do it. That you give to get. And seeing as you're wise to the world, and have some experience, I personally see no problem with letting her know what flies, and what doesn't. She doesn't want the doormat. But how does she know? How does she know you're not a faker? By maybe doing some stuff that would throw a weaker man off course, in the beginning. You show her you know what's up. You didn't just fall off the turnip truck. It's kind of like a parent child relationship. You set the tone.

She EARNS your AFFECTION and interest. Earns it. 24/7. I hope this helps clarify, your question about her knowing there's limits and conditions on your INTEREST in her (not attraction, that's just sexual). I mean, if you're talking, and hanging out, and contemplating hitting it, you're attracted. I don't think that's something you can fake. I mean you can't fake an erection.

 

[ketostix]

P_H, I get what you're saying. I've been getting what you are saying. I am talking about any hypothetical guy/girl situation and not about just what you and I are saying back and forth in this dicussion.

You might agree with Rollo too, but I don't think by challenge he meant to explicitly or overtly criticise a females beliefs, behaviors and actions (what I'm calling directly challenge). I think he said a man should do his own thing despite what a woman says and for the guy to be implicit or covert when expressing why. Rollo has also wrote a thread about covert vs. overt communication.

And you have made it abundantly clear that a woman would rather a man criticise or directly challenge her personally than directly challenge her gender. It's consider "wallowing" if he criticise sevreal members of your gender but it's considered challenging if he only criticise you. The thing is as a man I like generalizations. The reason is if I'm not happy with one girl then I just walk away. But if most women are like her or worse then there'd be no point in walking away so I'd just deal with her. It ahs nothing to do with "wallowing" that's just a female contrivance. I think the only reason for it is my explanation, i.e., If most all other women "suck" then the guy can't challenge her by getting a better one.

 

[Purple-Haze]

P_H, I get what you're saying. I've been getting what you are saying. I am talking about any hypothetical guy/girl situation and not about just what you and I are saying back and forth in this dicussion.

OK, we were going in circles for a while there. Glad you were able to see what I was saying.

You might agree with Rollo too, but I don't think by challenge he meant to explicitly or overtly criticise a females beliefs, behaviors and actions (what I'm calling directly challenge). I think he said a man should do his own thing despite what a woman says and for the guy to be implicit or covert when expressing why. Rollo has also wrote a thread about covert vs. overt communication.

I agree with this. I think it's good to directly challenge the person you are talking to IF it warrants a challenge. It changes a little in the romantic context as the gains are different.

And you have made it abundantly clear that a woman would rather a man criticise or directly challenge her personally than directly challenge her gender. It's consider "wallowing" if he criticise sevreal members of your gender but it's considered challenging if he only criticise you. The thing is as a man I like generalizations. The reason is if I'm not happy with one girl then I just walk away. But if most women are like her or worse then there'd be no point in walking away so I'd just deal with her. It ahs nothing to do with "wallowing" that's just a female contrivance. I think the only reason for it is my explanation, i.e., If most all other women "suck" then the guy can't challenge her by getting a better one.

So you are saying that women (every woman) do not like being challenged? It's all about context, keto. If you make an assertion about women as a collective, you have to be able to back it up with examples. I have no problem with discussing gender traits - there is something to be said about the predictability of behaviour. What I DO take issue with is an angry man (which you sometimes seem to be) who attacks every post by responding with "all women".

I am still a litlte confused... But I THINK I get the gist of what you are saying.

 

[KarmaSutra]

the over analyzing is unreal here.

"Overthinking, overanalyzing seperates the body from the mind."

Tool - Lateralus

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

Interesting how this evaluation developed into multiple interpretations over 5 pages since I posted. PURPLE came up with some takes, ones I hadn't originally thought of, but pretty close to what I'm on about here. Predictably, IQQI takes anything even peripherally pro-masculine as an attack on her feminine ego, but my use of the word "threat" here didn't imply malice. I'm sure more simplistic associations with violence or conflict is the natural one, but a "threat" is a challenge - how one deals with it is what's at issue.

But for a woman, to encounter a man with a healthy realization of his own value to women, this constitutes a threat. Here is a man for whom his attention women will demonstrably compete for, AND he knows this. Therefore his self-confidence MUST be put into self-doubt, because if such a man were to use this knowledge to his own benefit he may not select her from a pool of better prospect women. Thus she must ask "ARE you really sure of yourself? You think you're so great? Maybe you're just egotist?"

But the same characteristics that give him his confidence and sense of worth are exactly the same things that women want to be associated with. Even the most controlling, domineering wife still wants to tell her friends that the AFC she married is a "real Man" and defend him as such because anything less is a reflection on her own self-image. She wants to be with a Man that other men want to be, and other women want to ƒuck, because it confirms that she's of an equal of higher value to attract such a Man.

That is the threat and the attraction. Women want a Man that has confidence in his own value, that's sexy, but the more he self-realizes this the greater the anxiety is that she'll be found wanting as he better understands his options. So it becomes necessary to develop social contrivances that are standardized across the feminine gender that limit the full recognition of masculine self-value. Thus masculinity is ridiculed, men become slave to their sexuality, and masculinity becomes doubted by virtue of itself.

The mistake (and the binary retort) is to think this need for contrivances was concocted in whole as some grand sisterhood conspiracy. This just proves an ignorance of social constructs. For a social contrivance to be such, it necessitates being repeated by society WITHOUT a formal conception. Meaning we learn the contrivance from seeing it, learning it and repeating it ourselves without forethought. In fact, the best social contrivances are inconspicuous and rarely questioned because they've been learned without having been formally taught. This is why I think encouraging men NOT to bother trying to understand women is in itself a contrivance. Don't look at that man behind the curtain, just accept it for what it is, enjoy the show, you're better off that way, the Mighty Oz has spoken.

 

[reset]

You guys may call it overanalyzing but I for one am enjoying the feeling of actually understanding things that used to confound me.

 

[jophil28]

The Santana song where Rob Thomas says "I would change my life to better suit your mood" has always been very sexy to me.

But this is precisely what a doormat guy would do. Duh !

ICKY, your posts are full of rambling inconsistencies and contradictions and this one is no exception.
By the way- did you have your old English professor sitting next to you when you wrote the lead post in this thread ?
Just wondering at your newly found articulation..

 

[MotownMack]

But this is precisely what a doormat guy would do.

It is, and Rob Thomas actually has another of the worst lines in music history.

"Open up to me... Like you do your girl friends...."

Ugh. How about no? LOL. I'll pass thanks.

 

[reset]

"Open up to me... Like you do your girl friends...."

Holy crap!

 

[jophil28]

..This is why I think encouraging men NOT to bother trying to understand women is in itself a contrivance. Don't look at that man behind the curtain, just accept it for what it is, enjoy the show, you're better off that way, the Mighty Oz has spoken.

More Gold from the Rollo mine.